Eric; thanks.

let's just say i have plenty of room to play air guitar if i want to......

Bryan; thanks for the kind comment.

Frank; thanks.....i did read that comparison.....i haven't spent time with the new .2 versions.

mikelavigne March 03, 2005 14:27

Amazing room! Sorry to hear about the money situation with the wife, as i can relate. I must admit it is a little much to limit your spending on new music, especially after the new room.

i've always wanted to ask you... Have you ever just got up out of that comfy chair and started playing the air guitar?

Eric

ericeash March 03, 2005 11:25

All I have to say is WOW.

bryanhod March 02, 2005 18:48

Many thanks to your reply, I found you have give me very detail and non bias opinion. I truely appreciate.

happy listening.

Blueguitar.

rubyjunior February 28, 2005 00:16

Hi Mike. Hope you don't mind me chiming in on your thread but Paul Bolin compares the M1.2 and M2.2 in the March 05 Stereophile. (follow-ups pg.126). I found it interesting.

frankg February 27, 2005 22:50

Bluegiutar; you have a great amp there.....the WP7/M1.1 is an excellent combination.

4 years ago i went from the WP6/Levinson #33 combination to the Kharma Exquisite/Tenor OTL combination and found it to be more musically satisfying and less 'hifi'. if, at that time, i would have upgraded to the WP7 and Lamm M1.1 i think that would have also been a big step in musical performance over my WP6 and #33......although not as far as the Kharma/Tenor IMHO.

on the speaker side.....i much prefer the WP7 to the WP6......more coherent and natural sounding......but the better Kharma's go still further down that road and 'get out of the way' of the music better. OTOH the WP7 has more macro-dynamic capability than the Kharma's. the Von Schweikert VR9 (i have never heard the VR7) is at least equal to any Wilson dynamically and for bass extention......and i 'think' is equal to the Kharma's at their strengths in cohesiveness and clarity.

with amps it is really more a matter of what you find most musically satisfying. i find the Lamm amps in general very natural and without fault......but possibly lacking the inner fire and micro-dynamic energy i find in the Tenors. Lamm fans sometimes characterize the Tenors as slightly 'bright'. if your system is very neutral and natural i 'think' the Tenors give a system life.

the Lamm's are not as engaging to me......although Lamms are always musical. it is really a matter of personal preference.

to me the DarTZeel is a solid state version of the Tenor sound......very life-like but with even more clarity.....but still completely non-ss and natural. the Tenor's do have that 'touch of tubes' that can be just right depending on the speaker and room. also, the 300 watt Tenor Hybrids have more dynamic grip than the DarTZeel.....which can be helpfull with particular rooms/speakers.

getting back to the M1.1 (or M1.2) compared to the DarTZeel......they would have much in common. i have not done a direct comparison. i would expect the DarTZeel to be more lively.....a little faster.....a little more open on top......more to my tastes. the Lamm might be a little more forgiving and seem more understated......less wow but always right.

the ML2.1 is rightfully considered a very special amplifier.....many consider it the best.......i agree that it does certain things better than anything i have heard. but it presents a few compromises to a full range speaker that one must balance......and i personally prefer the strengths of either the Tenor or DarTZeel. the M1.2 would also have advantages over the ML2.1 on most speakers.

i hope i have helped shed a little light.....sorry if i kinda rambled.

mikelavigne February 27, 2005 16:13

well, I have noticed many people raved about DarTZeel amp lately, I personally use Lamm M1.1 with Watt puppy 7.

compare with you guys here, My experience is very limited, recently, Lamm 1.2 have fairly good review on it, but it seems people are talking more about ML2.1 and rarely compare Lamm hybrid amp. I believe you have experience with M1.2 or M1.1. they are class A power amp. maybe you can tell me more about your experience, why you didn't pick M1.1 or M1.2.
I am thinking to upgrade my speaker from watt7 to Kharma or Von Schweikert VR7. and those recenly post about DarTZeel, also make me think about my amp. ( maybe I should try something else).
thanks
Blueguitar

rubyjunior February 27, 2005 14:17

Blueguitar; to be precise; the VR9 has two passive woofers down to about 80hz (powered by your amp of choice) and a 15" rear firing, active subwoofer....powered by a 1000 watt amp.....covering the 15hz--80hz range. based on my listening experience at CES (and using my reference for bass articulation and toneality---the Kharma Exquisite) i would say that the VR9 (and even to a greater degree, the VR11) has easily the most articulate and tonally correct deep bass performance i have heard. i would temper that perception by saying that i had limited time and it was at a show).....in any case it was very, very good.

based on Mr. Valin's review in Absolute Sound, where he finds the bass performance on the Midi somewhat lacking with ML2.1's, (i think he said it was lacking impact and heft.....i don't have the review here at the moment)....your point is well taken. with both the Tenor 300 watt hybrid mono's and the DarTZeel ss stereo amp the Midi's have excellent bass impact and heft in my very large room.

users of the ML2 would likely say they will accept the dynamic limitations of the ML2 on speakers like the Midi, the 1D, and even speakers like the Wilson WP7 to get the whole package that the ML2 delivers......i think it is a matter of taste and sonic priorities.

personally, even though i think the ML2 is among the very best amps.....i prefer a more authoritative dynamic grip as long as i am not sacrificing refinement......my opinion is that both the Tenor and DarTZeel deliver that combination.

mikelavigne February 27, 2005 08:37

Hi Mike
I am new to audiogon, I have read your post regarding your thought on Kharma Midi. I have not hear the VR 9, but one thing I m concerned is that they use active woofer, have you ever notice the bass sound is not really go with the high and mid, well, eventhough they claim the active woofer act like a booster. again, I have not heard them so your opinion is appreciate. another thing you mentioned the midi is voiced with tube amp, but it is only 90db, do you think tube amp can fully develop the potential of the Midi? specially the Lamm ML2?
Thanks

rubyjunior February 27, 2005 04:11

Frank,

after a month with the Midi Exquisite's i have come to a few conclusions on how they compare to the 1D's. i just posted this over on AA.....

***********

lately i have been on a speaker journey. i have a new room where my prevoius reference (much loved) Kharma Exquisite 1D speakers are not able to support the lowest octave due to room size. i have ordered the new Von Schweikert VR9's to replace the Exquisite's......and expect the VR9's to easily plumb the depths (as well as be very close or equal to the Kharma's in the other areas).

i am fortunate that my dealer found a new home for my beloved Exquisite's.....AND has loaned me a set of Kharma Midi Exquisite's with Diamond Tweeters and Enigma wireing to use until my VR9's arrive (a few weeks, i hope).

having heard about this.....an inmate asked me to compare the Midi's to the 1D.....and post it here. so here goes....

******In most ways I prefer the Midi Diamond Enigma to the 1D. the Midi was designed a couple of years ago.....the original Exquisiite back in 1996......and I think the age of the Exquisite shows. It would be interesting to compare a 1D that had the Diamond Tweeter, new mid-range, and Enigma to the Midi.....my opinion is that the two would be equal except for deeper and faster bass in the Midi.....and the slightly better sense of weight and presence in the 1D (although a 'hot-rodded' 1D would cost another $25k more).

The Midi has a much more extended treble than the 1D......but also the Midi is more particular about amplification.....as the Diamond tweeter can show a slight prominence with ss amplification....or if a room is too live. the Midi will challenge the basic naturalness of everything in your system.....if anything is not right....you will hear it easily.....whether you like it or not.

The Midi was voiced with Lamm tube amps. The 1D is more forgiving on the top octaves.....and is fine with ss amps.

The clarity, detail and refinement in the mid-range of the 1D was previously only bettered very marginally by the Kharma CRM 3.2......the Midi, with the new mid-range.....is even slightly better than that.....breathtaking.....the same balance....just better.

The bass performance of the Midi is mostly better than the 1D......the Midi is slightly faster, has more dynamic snap and impact, and in my room decends to below 30hz......whereas the 1D only made it to about 40hz in my room. Articulation and bass tonality is about the same. At first, my impression was that presence and bass weight was too close to call. Now after a month with the Midi I am more clear that there is a wonderful fullness in the 1D that is just not there with the Midi.....you could call it a lean-ness but to me the Midi is not lean.....it's more that the amazing 500 pound cabinet of the 1D does have it's advantages.....there is no replacement for displacement.

it is important to point out that both speakers have excellent low bass in normal sized rooms. in my previous much smaller room the Exquisite easily extended to the Mid 20hz region.....and i would expect the Midi to hit 20hz in most rooms.

Overall coherence is about the same......specifically the very best there is anywhere. There are NO dynamic speakers I have ever heard that match the top of line Kharmas in coherence.....both these speakers completely disappear. The only exception to that is the wrong amp on the Midi's.....where the diamond tweeter, voiced for tubes.....can be prominent (too hot) for some amps. It is still no problem......but you can be aware of the Diamond tweeter.

I prefer the overall performance of the Midi to the 1D.....it simply gets closer to the event......better highs, better mids, mostly better bass. It is a higher performance speaker than the 1D.......but if I never heard the Midi I would be completely happy forever with the 1D (except for low bass performance in my new room).

On a practical level; the fact that the Midi is around 220 pounds compared to the 565 pounds of the 1D makes the Midi much easier to live with.....trying to do anything (move, pack, ship) with the 1D is a MAJOR pain-in-the-ass......but there is something wonderful about knowing your speaker weighs 565 pounds.

One slight advantage to a taller speaker is height of soundstage.....the 1D has a slightly taller soundstage....which I prefer. Some listeners may not enjoy the height of stage from the Midi....but it was fine for me.

The Midi is (for now...until my Von Schweikert VR9's arrive in March) the best speaker I have heard in my room.....or anywhere......but I still love the 1D.*****

the wild card here is the Von Schweikert VR9. I expect it to be better overall than either Kharma.....but until i can live with it for awhile i don't want to get ahead of myself. for the last (almost) 4 years the Exquisite has been my musical companion.....and i had not heard any better.....now i have......and the journey continues......

**********

Frank; i remember your raves about your Exquisite 1C's when you first got them. with those Diamond tweeters, new mid-range, and Enigma upgrade.....they should be about what i hear now with the Midi's......but with a little more warmth and body. i now can appreciate where you were coming from.

mikelavigne February 26, 2005 21:51

hi Matt; thanks. it is great to hear from you. i hope all is well.

there is no need for you to be jealous (i know you are just kidding)...you have a great dedicated room yourself....i hadn't looked over your web site in awhile.....looks great....congrats! sometimes i wish my room was a little warmer feeling like yours.

i am anxious to be able to get those 'bad boys' in my room...maybe in a week or two.

best regards,

mikelavigne February 26, 2005 21:43

Mike.. Spectacular..congrats..you did a fantastic job on the Barn !
.. Im dying to find out the result of the comparison with the VR9's ..

Oh..and I hate you....Im jealous.. :)

warm regards
Matt
Ottawa

mzn50 February 26, 2005 00:56

Mike, I will talk to you soon. Ya know, the more I look at that gorgeous room, the more I can't help but think that if I had that room, I'd probably be more likely to try and pick fights with my wife (who is so damn wonderful she's hard to pick with) so she'd make me "go to my room!"

I am one sick puppy!

fmpnd February 09, 2005 05:28

thanks Tireguy for minding the thread......the wife has me working night and day to pay for the room.

Fmpnd.....thanks for the deep thoughts......and i agree it is really about the music. for the last 3 months since the room has been done my biggest frustration has not been my speaker/low bass problem.....it has been that the agreement with my wife that i be revenue neutral has come between me and new music. in times past i would aquire at least 5 new cd's, sacd's, or Lp's a week. now it's maybe a couple a month. so my listening sessions are not nearly as engaging to me.....and it's a bummer. i have found that the process of music discovery is as significant to my enjoyment (or maybe more) than any system or room issue.

as far as what speakers i choose......i am sincere when i say that the Midi Exquisite's may be better than the VR9's as far as what i like in a speaker......but the VR9's may be the better speaker for my room. i hope i still have the Midi's when the VR9's arrive so i can directly compare them to really settle these questions for myself.....and they are questions at this point.

Islander.....you would be most welcome to visit.....e-mail me and we'll set it up.

Bob, call back and we can talk some more......sorry i got busy.

Strapper; thanks for the kind comments.

Lousyreeds1......the room is spoken for.

mikelavigne February 09, 2005 04:42

Strapper211- If you don't mind me stepping in- I know Mike is very busy and it may take him some time to reply. The chair is called a backsaver "sonata" they are outstanding! Here is a link that has more information about them and pricing. They also have available the "sonsie" which is not available in wood or with anything other then black leather but is about a grand less. Personally I feel that if you are buying a chair like this don't cut corners, you'll just be upset with yourself down the road.

I am trying to figure out how to get two of these into my office, it would be a nice, and comfortable, change of pace to the typical office furniture repertoire.

tireguy February 09, 2005 00:59

Mike, congrats on having an awesome system in an awesome room. I've fallen in love. Is it married?

lousyreeds1 February 09, 2005 00:09

Hi Mike,great listening chair.Where can I get one.Also super setup system,room,totally dedicated.

Robert

strapper211 February 04, 2005 13:17

Mike, It is great to see that you are able to have the Exquisite Midi's in your room. If you let me know when you are going to be less busy then I will call you and get some initial impressions. It would be great if you can compare them to the VR's with the focus that we like. Best Regards, Bob

stenersr February 01, 2005 03:48

Mike, I've enjoyed seeing the evolution of your room and reading the attendant commentary. Your room is wonderfully fantastic and I would love to have the opportunity to sit and listen to your system someday. I have had the pleasure to sit in and listen to another reviewer's room here in the Puget Sound area (who shall remain anonymous) and really appreciated the work he had put into room construction/attenuation. Both of you have provided a lot of useful information that will be implemented - finances allowing - into my music room/office. I appreciate that you have shared this experience with us.

islandear January 31, 2005 18:32

Mike, I think you have unfortunately misunderstood me. Let's face it, many of us are in this hobby becasue we love music. Some because they love the gear. Me, I must be totally honest and forthright here - I have a love of music that is paramount to every other "hobby" Ive had and it is a true passion. As you may know, I was a professional musician until my career was abruptly ended by an accident.

However, very soon after I fell in love with music, I became enthralled with the equipment that conveyed it. I still remember the first time I saw a Dual turntable, Mac amps and Walsh speakers - I was totally infatuated! I also must admit, unfortunately, at times my two loves have been paradoxically at odds. For example, in chasing that Audio Holy Grail of better sound, when I have bought more and more expensive and, hopefully, but not all the time, better and better gear, my level of expectation also goes up because I am expecting that extra cost to justify itself (taking into consideration, the diminishing returns inherent in this hobby, and most others). The problem is that I then listen more critically - listening more to the "system" or the "gear" or for "audiophile tricks" than for the emotional content of the music - and THAT is not a good thing for me - at least not when I listen that way for too long.

Why the long dissertation? Because when all the dust settles at the end of the day, the only thing that REALLY counts in this hobby, is ARE YOU HAPPY? Was the money you spent worth it and did you acheive your goal? I saw a post on AA where someone listed a website where a bunch of small-minded people are taking cheap pot shots at you, your system and your room. Fools!! If they don't like what you spent your money on, what harm is it to them? Most of those childish comments are likely based in envy, some just negative people who are narrow minded because THEY think they can build a better mouse trap. But in the end, YOU earned the money and YOU choose how and where to spend it to increase YOUR enjoyment based on YOUR priorities.

Hell, if you use their childish and critical approach, ask them why they bought a Seiko or Rolex when a Timex tells time or why buy a Honda or Lexus or Mercedes when a Yugo or Ford Escort gets you from point A to B. We all prioritize our spending based on our own experiences, values and preferences.

So Mike, no need to ever apologize to me. My only disappointment was that you didn't seem to want to respond. You have the most visible system on the Net and a logical by-product of that visibility is that people will ask questions.

The bottom line? If YOU are happy with the VR-9s, THAT is all that matters! During my short time in the Von Schweikert room at CES (while you were there), I didn't like the VR-11s at all. However, I am not sure it wasn't the demo that was the problem. To me when I heard the Pink Panther theme, I honestly felt like I was listening to music at an IMAX theater. I, personally, did not like hearing a sax that sounded 28 feet high - to me it didn't sound like real music but a testosterone competition. BUT, that was the VR-11s driven at loud volumes so the VR-9s in your room may be a totally different story. Just because I prefer the Kharmas doesn't make either of us right or wrong, just 2 people with different tastes. And it certainly doesn't upset me that you have changed speakers as I have no loyalty to any manufacturer, just loyalty to music. That is why I always tell people who compliment my system: "Don't compliment me, compliment the designers, all I did was buy it!"

Enjoy!

fmpnd January 31, 2005 17:05

Mike,

Very,very nice. I wish you the best with the switch to the VR9's. We actually have similar systems....I also have those nice cablelifters!!. :) Seriously, you've done very well!-- Ken

kehut January 31, 2005 00:25

Mike,

I auditioned those Exquisite Midis for about 4 hours this summer, probably the exact same pair and they helped sell me onto Kharma (albeit much lower in the Kharma line). In combination with the Tenor hybrid, I could hardly find fault with them. Perhaps, I could have used more bass dynamics, when I listened to the last White Stripes CD and wondered where the kick drum had gone. (Perhaps, I wasn't surprised to see Valin add the Kharma sub with them in his review in TAS). Nonetheless, musically I have never heard anything that compares, in my limited experience. Few systems have actually had me as engaged, closing my eyes not able to believe what I was hearing. It will be interesting if you get to compare to the VR-9's, specifically commenting upon the Kharma disappearing act, it's luscious midrange. Listening to one my favorite female vocalists, Lucinda Williams (American Dream from World without tears) was spine tingling on those Midis.

Good luck with the new equipment. Will the Tenors stick around ?
Also, sorry to see all the arrows flying on the internet. Please stick with your postings though !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have taught me (and others I'm sure) quite a lot.

thom_y January 30, 2005 00:20

Guys; thanks for all the nice comments. sorry i'm behind in my responses here.....i've been extremely busy at work.

Hifimaniac; i do enjoy my Lp's. for the last 2 years i have had an agreement with my wife to be revenue neutral (to allow for the room project).....as a result i have not been able to buy many new Lp's.....and it has really bummed me out.

Joesy; i have not heard the Strativarious but did read the Stereophile review. my total guess would be that the two speakers might have much in common......the Kharma Exquisite's might disappear better....the Strad likely is more extended top and bottom. my experience with Sonus Fabre compared to Kharma would be that the Kharma is the more refined speaker.....say if you compare the Amati with the CRM 3.2.....at similar prices. to my ears...refinement is most important and most ellusive to attain (by refinement i mean more nuanced and less veiled but still natural).

Frankpiet; i have heard Micro-Seiki's but mostly at shows and i'm not sure which model is which. i think they are very fine tt's.....possibly not as quiet as a few more recent designs but at the SOTA none-the-less.

i know some consider them the very best.

Mark; no, i don't mind you asking.....

George; initially....i was skeptical when my acoustical designer suggested hardwood at the speaker end. he then explained that most rooms over-damp the sound and lose all the musical energy. he added that as long as any adjacent wall was either absobtive or diffusive there would be no reflection that would be a problem since the 'bouce' would be eliminated. when you consider a concert hall the floor is typically hardwood....with diffuse and angled walls behind and to the side of the stage.....exactly like my room.

it turns out my designer was correct.

in my quite small previous room it was necessary to dampen things considerably to keep the system from overwhelming the room as i raised SPL's......sometimes absobtion is necessary......but it is better to retain and control energy for the top performance when you can.

Sammie; yes....God is good.

Fmpnd; sorry for my non-response. since i've been in the new room i've been struggleing with my speaker issues. the lack of low bass under 40hz has been troubleing to me......and i have preferred to keep my thinking to myself regarding this. rather than mislead anyone i choose not to respond......and don't blame you if you are upset about it.

i have sold my Kharma Exquisite 1D's......i still love them and would recommend them to anyone.....but they did not support low bass (under 40hz) in my room. in my previous room they went flat to 30hz and pretty good to the mid 20hz range.

at this moment i have a loaner pair of Kharma Midi Exquiste's with the Diamond Tweeter's and Enigma wireing in my room. these speakers were designed recently whereas the Exqusites were designed back in 1997. the Midi's are fantastic in my room.....matching all the pluses of the 1D's but adding a much more extended treble, greater dynamics, more clarity in the mids, and deep bass into the 20hz range. this is the best sound i have ever heard in my room (or, in an overall sense, any other).

i spent 8 to 10 hours at CES listening to the Von Schweikert speakers.....both the VR9's and VR11's. i was really blown away by the performance of these speakers. the room was set up for multi-channel and due to the challenge of set-up at a show......combined with the considerable adjustability of the Von Schweikert's .......many times these speakers were not optimized at CES. but when they were right they were as good a speaker as i have heard......and with their dynamic capability.....the VR9's are ideal for my 29' x 21' room.

so i ordered the VR9's.

i hope that i still have the Midi Exquiste's when the VR9's arrive. the Midi's can't compete on a dynamic basis with the VR9's but i'm truely curious how they might compare in my room.

Frank.....i hope you forgive me my delay in response. i had such a connection to the Exquisite's that i really wasn't sure what to do.....but i wanted to take my own time to figure it out on my own.

mikelavigne January 29, 2005 23:36

Good god man!

sammie January 28, 2005 23:45

Good lord.

A question if I may - what is the reasoning regarding the hardwood floor in the front segment (about 1/3 I'm guessing of your room). I assume there is a sonic benefit?

Congratulations, I'm drooling.

George

esoxhntr January 27, 2005 21:51