last night i brought home the GP rack but only had time to just set it up in a rudimentary way. i did some brief listening then and this morning and enjoyed the clear improvements. there are improvements in microdynamics, refinement, and additional textural dimentions.

the Grand Prix Monaco 4 shelf rack replaced a 4-shelf Zoethecus reference Z-4 rack with Z-slab shelves. the GP has an SE frame, Apex footers with silicon nitride balls and the Formula shelves.

i am using the GP rack 'nude'......in other words, the components sit on the shelves without any additional tweaks of any kind. the whole idea here is that the GP shelves will out-perform all the other component resonance control approaches.

i believe it.

the performance of the Zoethecus rack (which i am comparing the GP rack to) was assisted with numerous tweaks under (and over) the various components.

i had my emmlabs CDSD transport on the top shelf of the Zoethecus on a SAP Relaxa 1 mag-lev (magnetic levitation) platform....which was setting on the Z-slab shelf.

my Jena Labs switchbox was sitting on a Z-slab on 4 screwed on BDR cones.....i had 5 or 6 large lead-filled Walker tuneing pucks sitting on top of it.

my emmlabs DAC6 was sitting on 3 brass cones which were pointed into the middle of 3 small lead-filled Walker pucks on top of a Z-slab. i had 2 Shakti Stones sitting atop the DAC6.

on the bottom, the Lamm LP2 Delux was sitting on 3 Aurio's which set on a Z-slab.

the Zoethecus and all those tweaks have been my resonance control reference for quite a few years. even just thrown together the GP rack is an improvement........i am looking forward to really getting the GP just right.

let me explain the tuneing process.

first, the GP rack itself allows for lead shot to be put into the legs for ballast...which will solidify things. the Apex feet and and the legs use a de-coupleing approach to absorb resonance......resonance has no solid connection to pass through to components. then each shelf has 3 foam pads that are placed between the shelf and the stand frame. these foam pads come in at least 10 different densities. you get a chart that shows a profile of the ideal shape that the pad should give when it is perfectly compliant.

to tune each shelf to each component you simply insert a foam pad in that location and then observe the compression on the foam pad. if the pad profile is too straight then you need a softer pad.......if the pad profile is too pinched you need a harder one. most components do not distribute the weight equally, therefore it is typical that you might have three different compliance pads for one component.

last night i just guessed at what pads might work....tonight i will closely observe the compression and make the small adjustments to find the ideal pads for each component.

what other rack can be so perfectly tuned to your component and yet work for any component? there are other great component rack systems but none as tuneable as the GP that i know of.

i have heard what the GP rack and amp stands have done when not perfectly tuned.......which is a good deal better than all my tweaks combined.

we will see how much better they might be.

mikelavigne August 26, 2005 19:26

Mike, I truly appreciate this: not just your system which is source of envy for all, but your constant feedback with regard to your journey: very educational...a shame I am in Hong Kong and can't ask if I could stop by to hear it for myself. That would be a treat.

A question, what kind of music do you listen to?

henryhk August 23, 2005 06:46

FYI, my friend with the audio measuring gear didn't make it on Saturday.....maybe next weekend.

the GP amp stands combined with the Jena Labs power cords on the VR9 subwoofer amp proved a wonderful combination. i should recieve the 4-level GP Monaco rack by this weekend.

i'll get more into my impressions of the total GP 'effect' after the Monaco rack is in place.

mikelavigne August 21, 2005 19:48

Hooper (Andy), of course i know who you are.....i pay attention to what you are doing. our paths have much in common. your input has helped my decision making.

yes, i seriously considered SRA and have no doubt that it has similar performance benefits to GPA. my feelings were that as a (supposed) reviewer and person that auditions other gear frequently; the flexibility of the GPA offered advantages to me as it can be precisely tuned for any gear easily and cheaply. also, it turned out that i heard the GPA first in my system and just had to have it. if SRA would have come first it may have been different. there is no doubt that the cosmetics of the SRA are better and less industrial.....i prefer that look myself.

both Alvin of GPA and Kevin of SRA are good guys and know their stuff.

my represntation of 'flat to 15hz' is a bit of a guess i admit......but an educated one in my opinion. first, at 20hz and under you are mostly 'feeling' the frequency and not particularly 'hearing' it. i have heard/felt certain recordings in systems known to go flat to 20hz, and the same recordings in a system flat to 18hz. i also have a friend that has a system that is flat to 10hz (this friend will be here tonite and bring his considerable measuring mics and software). my perception is that what i am feeling is between 18hz and 10hz. this room seems to support whatever the speakers can portray.

if there is a specific answer to this question tonite i will relate it. the only problem is that test tones for below 20hz might be hard to come by.

mikelavigne August 20, 2005 05:24

OK, it's time. the speakers, the system, and the room are about there. what i am hearing now is really fantastic. the last couple of weeks i have found some key answers that have got things over the hump in important ways.

i am hesitant to label what i am hearing in absolute terms. i have not heard everything out there.....no one has. what i will say is that in every separate sonic perfomance criteria.....i have not heard any music reproduction sound better.....or even quite as good. more significantly; this system gets out of the way of the musical message and allows the musical event to just happen. PERIOD.

there have been two significant changes to the system in the last 10 days or so that have really made huge differences......both of which might typically be considered subtle. it turns out that one asset of this 'wretched excess' of a room is that since you can hear every tiny change.....EVERYTHING matters......and subtle things cause not so subtle differences. when your microscope suddenly increases it's magnification by the power of 10 (or 100).....what was previously obscure is now 'in your face'.

first, 10 days ago a friend brought over a pair of Grand Prix Audio Monaco amp stands with Formula shelves and Apex feet. we first listened to my Tenors on the Zoethecus amp stands for about an hour. it sounded great.

then, in goes the GP.....within about 30 seconds my world was rocked!!

everything was waaaay better.....and i mean everything.

overall focus was much better.

any brightness or treble hash resolved itself naturally and smoothed out but with increased texture and ease. cymbles and horns had more dynamic impact but were much more natural and believable.

increased clarity and refinement in the mids.

smoother and more extended treble.

deeper and wider soundstage.

lower noisefloor.

vastly improved bass focus and impact. deeper bass extention and smoother mid-bass. a whole new dimention of bass texture and control. bass decay suddenly went on, and on, and on. on bass peaks and and transiens......totally coherent and without breakup or even a hint of strain.

frankly, the bass was considerably beyond my reference.

THIS IS ALL FROM CHANGING 2 GOD DAMN AMP STANDS.

there were three of us that heard these huge changes that should have been very subtle......and they were world-changing to us. this was at about 3:00pm on a Sunday afternoon. we listened until 9:30pm that night.....and none of us wanted to stop.

i ordered the Grand Prix Monaco amp stands and rack the next morning. i'll have the amp stands tomorrow and the rack next week.

i can't wait.

the second big change was more unexpected. a friend sent me a pair of the new Jena Labs Fundamental 'the One' power cords, which include an in-line power conditioner, to try on the 1000 watt digital amps that power the 15" subwoofer in my speakers. i had been using some 'Home Depot' specials. for three months i had been searching for bass definition.....and thought i was pretty much there. so last Friday night i put these babies in, sat back, and......

simply amazing. what i thought was pretty good turned out to be 'broken' compared to the bass performance i now was hearing. at moments like this you feel kinda stupid.

how could i have thought that what i had been hearing was so good after hearing what i was now hearing?

the improvements i had heard with the GP amp stands were about doubled in bass performance (except my friend's GP amp stands were no longer in my system).

i have never heard bass performance anywhere near what i am now hearing. flat to 15hz, no overhang, with the most explosive bass slam and transient snap i have heard. tonally and texturally rich, very deicate, with commanding power and control.....yet that very special ease and musical flow......it sweeps you along.

last night i had a couple of friends over.....they were literally blown away as all their very familiar music was redifined for them. 'that is like hearing that for the first time' was said on almost every cut.

sooooo.....tomorrow night will be the first time i'll hear both the amp stands and the power cord at the same time. then next week i'll have the full GP rack.

i can't wait.

mikelavigne August 18, 2005 22:50

sorry for my absence and delay in responding/posting.

***i was gone.....
***it's been crazy at work....
***the dog ate my homework.

Jlind, thanks for the kind words. i'm pretty much in the room when i can be.

some would say i have no life.....they would be the ones that have not heard the room.

Bay, my chair is called the 'zero gravity chair'.....it is, by far, the most comfortable chair i have ever sat in. this chair can be purchased at www.relaxtheback.com . there are a number of different versions of this chair. i like mine since it has a narrow top for minimal acoustic effect and uses Viscoelastic foam that uses the heat from your body to mold to your contour. highly recommended.

Scott, you need no excuse to come over.....just call me. i can't dispute Cinematic System's perspective. the Phonic seems to be a help to me.....come over and judge for yourself.

Cinematic systems; thanks for the feedback.....i think you are correct that the Phonic has limitations as far as level of detail.....but i can tell it has allowed me to get closer to the sonic ideal in my room.

this weekend a friend is bringing over his quite extensive audio testing gear to measure my room. more feedback next week on the results. he has a full suite of sophisticated audio testing programs on his laptop, and extensive experience in using them.

mikelavigne August 18, 2005 21:47

This is the room of all rooms!!! Seriously my wet dream. How could you ever leave that room? I would always be saying one more song, ONE MORE SONG!!!!!

jlind325is August 17, 2005 12:40

I'm interesting your Chaise Longe, Where are you bay? and do you say where I can buy in the internet?

Good Room and beautiful, it's a big system.

Bay

[email protected] August 08, 2005 08:49

"the Phonic is very easy to use and i quickly learned how to use it and plug it into my laptop to allow a larger screen."

Forgive me Mike for using your "system" thread for this post.

Respectfully "The Phonic" is a bit of a toy, it is the Radio Shack SPL meter of RTA's and 1/3rd octave resolution is not really enough to tune your system, that will leave you with a very general smoothed looking curve that definitely gives you a sense of what your hearing but not enough information to analyze or discover anything but the grossest problems.

For anyone in your situation, where you'll have a laptop around the the True Audio RTA(http://www.trueaudio.com/index.htm) for $39 to $99 is a much better tool and much more economical. You will still need a mic and a mic preamp (approx. $200?) should you not have these items already.

I just posted this as an FYI for those in your situation, in your case Mike if you bought the Mic Pre and Calibrated Mic from Rives to use with your ETF, you would have all the tools a non-professional would ever need to setup your system and evaluate its performance in room and the ability to print out and save results.

Hope that was helpful

cinematic_systems August 04, 2005 08:48

Hi Mike-
Welcome back from vacation. Thanks for sharing your experience with the Phonic. I may accept your invitation, and see how I might learn from your experience in my system. It's also a thinly disguised excuse to treat myself to another listening session at your place! It is pretty convenient, now that I'm working on the Eastside. Take care,
scott

skushino August 03, 2005 23:08

hi Scott, i'm back. as jtinn mentioned i have the Phonic. the Phonic is very easy to use and i quickly learned how to use it and plug it into my laptop to allow a larger screen. i can move my speaker around while playing a test tone on repeat and 'dial' in the bass response while seeing the 'real-time' response on my laptop screen. you are welcome to come over and see how it works.

the Phonic does not do waterfall plots and some other more sophisiticated functions......but works great for what it costs.

Bigpapa;

i purchased my chair at 'www.relaxtheback.com'......it's called the 'zero-gravity' chair and comes in a few different versions.

Simplcitymusic;

it's been years since i had a Krell amp in my room so i can't really comment specifically on how particular Krell amps might compare to the darTZeel or the Tenors. my guess is that the ss signature of the Krell would likely not be my cup of tea.

After a couple months of living with the VR9's I have come to the conclusion that they are a more capable speaker than the Kharma and I prefer them to the Kharmas.

The VR9 at least equal the Kharma (both Exquisite and Midi Exquisite) in areas of coherence, mid-range purity, bass articulation and overall naturalness. The VR9's exceed the Kharma's slightly in terms of smooth and extended high frequencies.

The VR9's far exceed the Kharmas in terms of overall dynamics at all frequencies. One big advantage is that the VR9's are dynamic at lower SPL's......which the Kharmas struggle with. I like to listen at 'sane' volumn levels yet still have the music 'engage'me.

The VR9's have much more deep bass and are still very articulate.....the Kharmas are not even close in this regard. The Kharma's (Midi Exqusites) only extended into the mid-30hz level in my room......the VR9's are flat to 15hz. The VR9's always sound effortless whereas the Kharmas sometimes would sound a little strained in my big room.

Intimate music is very satisfying on the VR9's. The VR9's are captivating on any horn or stringed instrument. They are tonally rich and yet have the delicacy that I loved about the Kharmas too. also, the VR9's have that same 'unveiled' immediacey of the Kharmas.

The VR9's are soundstaging champs and yet each recording has it's unique particular environment.....which is what I prefer. Instruments are not inflated......vocalists don't all seem 15 feet wide.

i am still working thru issues, particularly working out the logistics of speaker cables since the speaker terminals are so far off the floor. i will likely need to send my Opus back to Transparent to have them lenghtened to accomodate the height of the mid/tweeter terminals.

i feel i'm at that point where i'm again just listening to music and not so aware of speakers or amps or even a system......and it's a nice place to be again. the only 'issue' is the contrary feedback i get from visitors. the adjustability of the speakers allows such an accomodation to individual tastes that i find myself adjusting the speakers differently for many visitors. i am finding my personal 'center' to a large degree......but i'm not fully there yet.

mikelavigne August 02, 2005 23:28

Jtinn - thank you for the info. I really appreciate it! I am at the point of paralysis by analysis, and need to simply buy a RTA and start using it. Then I may choose to upgrade in the future.

Are there any issues with the Phonic? It seems reasonably priced and portable, and one-third octave resolution. Think I'll get one.

skushino August 02, 2005 10:43

Scott: Mike is out of town, so since I know what he bought I will speak on his behalf. He bought a Phonic PAA3 which is a small portable yet seemingly powerful RTA.

I like mine. They are also reasonbly priced at $400.

jtinn July 26, 2005 19:20

Hi Mike - Nice to read the progress you're making with your system. It must provide you and your family with many hours of listening pleasure!

You mentioned that you have an RTA on the way. Can you share which RTA you have, and if you are happy with it? I am in the market for a unit.

Thanks and happy listening!

scott

skushino July 26, 2005 16:26

you have a nice VR9SE speakers what happen to your kharma its mean VR9SE is better than kharma thats why you change are you still using the tenor amp i see DarTZeel driving your VR9SE what do you think tenor amp & DarTZell compared to krell balance 600 or other krell balance series or krell master refference amp.

simplicitymusic July 26, 2005 09:42

Mike where did you purchase that great looking chair

bigpapa July 26, 2005 06:38

Nrchy; thanks for the kind words. i do consider my wife to be a saint for her support and tolerance of my passion.

i'm sure your system sounds good right where it is.....you have some nice gear there.

mikelavigne July 22, 2005 21:21

I have never seen anything so spectacular. There are some nice listening rooms posted here, but I'm not sure there are any better rooms.

VERY well thought out and constructed. I wonder if my wife would let me do that in the new family room?

Even my system would sound good in there...

nrchy July 20, 2005 09:45

hi Ron,

thanks; i am really happy with what i'm now hearing in the room....although there is still more progress to be made. the system now has much in common with the emotional involvement of the 'old' system while simply going waaay farther down the perfomance road. hopefully you can visit again and hear it for yourself.

i think i know why you are getting mixed results with digital compared to analog. it is hard to know for sure without knowing the specific gear in your setup......but i'm guessing that it has something to do with the output impedence of your source gear or even if the source gear is single-ended or balanced.

when the DC compensation is defeated the DarTZeel is much more suceptable to source impedence issues and in my experience balanced cables caused some instability. as i am very marginal on technical issues i won't even guess about the why. i do know that even with some problems with balanced cables when DC comp was defeated i still preferred it......and the amp you have is the one i originally had and broke in.

i hope i have not made a fool of myself with my attempt at a technical explaination.

i prefer the Tenor Hybrid monoblocks to (a single) DarTZeel as my system is curently configured mainly due to dynamic grip and synergy with my passive pre......but i expect i'll prefer a pair of DarTZeels along with the new Dart pre......stay tuned.....the Dart pre should be ready in a few months.

the DarTZeel is not the answer for every system.....whereas the Tenor Hybrids can handle pretty much any speaker out there.

mikelavigne July 19, 2005 21:50

Mike:

I thought I would wait until you were really happy with the sound of your new speakers before I congratulated you on achieving what must be incredibly satisfying sound from your system. Since, I only heard your "old" one and like everyone else was awfully impressed, it is tough to even imagine the sound you are now enjoying. And that's about all I can say.

One question, though. When playing vinyl, did you ever use the DartZeel leaving the DC compensation circuit "in"? Here in Honolulu, we came across an interesting phenomenon using the Dart on a pair of Dali Megalines (and other speakers as well) - When using a digital source, taking the DC circuit "out" was always unmistakeably better, as JT said it would be. However, when playing records, in most cases with most speakers, leaving the DC circuit "out" produced noticeably better results. I have no idea why, but in analog, the Dart had more "liveness" and "fire" with the circuit in, that is, more of the sonic qualities (I'm guessing from what you posted) that you find the Tenors to have in superior abundance to the Dart.

Just wondering - and slowly turning green.

Ron

oahuan July 19, 2005 19:34

Mike, In my system, the Aural Symphonics Optimism V2 fiber gives a less digital sound (less bright and less mechanical). It also gives better depth, more details and texture of instrument and voices. Overall, the emmlabs stock optical fiber sounded a bit muddy relative to the Optimism especially the bass.
I don't know the exact spec of the Optimism, nor the stock fibers. However, in the emmlabs DCC2 manual, it stated the ST fiber has to be multi-mode. I'm pretty sure the Optimism is multi-mode. But there can be 2 sizes: 50 micron core and 62.5 micron core. They both use the same ST connector. Though the later size is the more commonly used.
You might want to verify with Ed Meitner again if you are skeptical about compatibility.
As far as I remember, through The Cable Company, you can try it for 30 days (less shipping days) and return it if it doesn't work for your setup. The most you can loss is the shipping fee.

javaguy July 07, 2005 21:14

Gallant diva, thanks. part of my particular challenge is that since my room AND my speakers are so adjustable and have steep learning curves i'm constantly discovering how various combinations of things work.

i have an RTA on the way at the moment that should help me to find my way with the hard data feedback.

Javaguy; 2 years ago i did investigate Aurial Symphonies ST Optical cable for my emmlabs interface......at that time the Aurial Symphonies optical cable was the wrong spec for the emmlabs according to Ed Meitner. from what you are saying it appears that Aurial Symphonies has brought out a cable correctly spec'd for the emmlabs. i will investigate this and maybe try it. thanks for the heads up.

if a different optical cable can improve the performance of the emmlabs that would be great.

what improvements do you hear over the stock optical cable?

mikelavigne July 07, 2005 06:37

Mike, I don't know if anyone has brought this up to you before. But if you're still using the 3 stocked ST fiber from EMM Labs, may be you can surprise yourself with the Aural Symphonics ST optical fiber cables instead.
I'm currently using the Aural Symphonics Optimism V2 ST optical fiber to connect my EMM Labs CDSD to the DAC8MKIV and getting good result.
You can get the cable through The Cable Company. It's web site is http://www.fatwyre.com/

javaguy July 06, 2005 20:52

Lawrence, notice the time gaps between my posts. i AM mostly just enjoying music. if i do move something i'll investigate cause and effect for a short time.....but i believe that spending time enjoying is the BEST way to discover how the system is doing. which is why DBT has 'zero' value to me for judging the musical enjoyment aspect of system performance. this is about feelings, not sounds.

OTOH i know that to optimize my room/system will take some time and effort.

and don't sell your system/room short....yours is likely very close to what i am hearing. more the same than not.

mikelavigne July 01, 2005 16:08

Mike, you give a very accurate description of what a dedicated listener goes through, as opposed to the guy who is immediately happy with every change he makes.

Once I compared a very cheap audio component with a hugely expensive one. I ended up buying the cheap one but I went through something like the following sequence: eye browse raised, became curious, found interesting and intriguing, started to like, impressed, disbelief, doubts, impressed, very impressed, totally in love.

Normally, this does not happen if you dislike something very obviously.

Congrats on your new speaker.

gallant_diva July 01, 2005 15:55