Mike,

With all of this dialing in, tuning in, rearranging, substituting, etc. I wonder if you are really getting the opportunity to just enjoy the music with the new speakers ?

Now, I would admit that my ears, room, and system don't match yours, but given the usual music I listen to, I usually assume that when I hear something troubling it is more likely to be a function of the recording. (not to say the room and system are perfect by any means) At least that way, I will hopefully avoid the trouble and expense of chasing my tail and can let my bank account reaccumulate. I would imagine your room and system are that much more revealing of recording problems.

Lawrence

thom_y July 01, 2005 22:46

.....and not only that. this room/system does present some very familiar recordings in a more exposed way to the degree that i have to be patient to make sure that problems that i hear are really problems and not recording/mastering issues. when you think you 'know' a recording intimiately and then hear something 'different'......it may take repeated listening before cause/effect can be established.

i've chased a few problems that i ultimately concluded were actually the truth exposed and then had to 'backtrack'.

mikelavigne July 01, 2005 13:39

Greg, you are sooo right, thanks.

i expect it will be at least 6 more months before i am at peace with the pre/amps/speakers regarding room synergy.

the pattern so far is;

a-'oh god, now this is perfect!'
b-'the best ever'
c-'what was THAT?'
d-'that doesn't sound quite right'
e-'so that's what Fred was talking about the other night'
f-'maybe if i just try this.....'
g-'oh god, now this is perfect!'

and so on......

mikelavigne July 01, 2005 13:32

the song says...don't go changing...take your time.your intial rush may change over the long haul. I'm sure you know that. depending on how much time you can spend ,it takes professional reviewers about six months to get the measure of a component. even longer to match components.

gregadd June 29, 2005 11:43

Case04, thanks for the kind comment.

OK.....here's my problem. i KNOW that this is just going to get better as i dial these 'bad boys' in......but right now i have a huge shit-eat'n grin on my face.....the sound is fantastic.....the music is just sooo real. so how can i stay 'reasonable' and leave myself room for better performance? the words that come to mind are not cautious or conservative......they are 'over the top' since that is how i FEEL right now about the performance of these speakers.

last week i took the DarTZeel back to the distributor. my conclusion regarding the Tenor Hybrid compared to the DarTZeel is that as my system is currently configured the Tenors are overall a better match and more musically satisfying. OTOH i expect that my ultimate solution will include vertically bi-amped DarTZeel amps and a DarTZeel preamp. the single DarTZeel was not the best match for my Placette passive RVC whereas the Tenor Hybrids are a perfect match (the Tenor designer voiced them with a resistive based passive pre) so the Tenors are about perfectly implemented as my system is currently configured.

my cables are also not ideal for the DarTZeel whereas they work perfectly with the Tenor sound.

all that said, the DarTZeel and the Tenor Hybrids are my two favorite amps.....the Dart having a slightly lower noisefloor, a slightly greater sense of immediacy, a slightly better transient snap and a little more of a transparent sound. the Dart has no solid state signature of any kind and is completely natural sounding. the Tenor Hybrid is very close to the Dart in all those areas......plus.....it is more marco and micro dynamic, has a greater sense of heft and body, fleshes out the mid-range better, and has a wonderful sparkle and fire that is uniquely Tenor. there is a flow and pace to the Tenors that the single Dart simply cannot match. with the 94db VR9's the 300 watt Tenor Hybrids seem to posses limitless dynamics and ease (as you would expect) and yet easily present the most delicate and nuanced detail and micro-dynamic shift.

as much as i have always loved the Tenors.....they are showing me things on the VR9's in my room i have never heard before.

back to these speakers; i have moved the VR9's around a little more.....they are now another 6 inches back of the last spot (a total of 9 inches back of they original spot) and 2 inches more toward the center of the room (total of 5 inches closer from each side)for a total of 10 inches closer together.

the results;

at the earlier locations my soundstage was quite diffuse.....now images are full bodied and much less 'within the box'.....i am getting much more a sense of layering in the soundstage. i see 'around' the images as the images have depth and a sense of occupying actual space. kinda like how you are aware that other people are in the room with you.....a sense of real space.

the speakers completely disappear.

there is an immediacy and unveiled clarity that is different than how PCM digital presents flat 'cookie-cutter' sharp outlines of images and 'hyper-detail'. this is more of a 'jump factor' or 'goosebump' effect where you just 'know' it is real since you are hearing 15hz to 100khz (even though your ears don't 'hear' much of it those frequencies are a part of reality in this world) yet with a coherence and viceral energy that resembles reality.

my mid-bass bump around 125hz seems to have completely disappeared....which has uncovered much more detail, cleaner mids, and more articulate deep bass. the whole frequency range has 'cleaned up'. that great deep bass performance has improved.

moving the speakers closer to the rear wall has improved the micro and macro dynamic snap and swing.....my toes are tapping more and my body is engaged.

my previous hesitation regarding how the Kharmas compared to these VR9's has vanished. IN THIS ROOM THE KHARMAS ARE NOT CLOSE. in the mids the Kharma Midi Exquisites are very close to the VR9's, and not far away in the Highs......but overall the VR9's are on another level.

i am now able to appreciate the potential of these speakers, these amps, these sources......in this room. i cannot see where there are limitations. what i need now is objective visitors that can give me feedback on how things can improve. i need to measure what is happening with an RTA and keep pushing. and.....i need to go listen to some live acoustical music to give me the proper reference.

did i leave myself any wiggle-room?

i didn't think so.

mikelavigne June 28, 2005 04:12

Absolutely FANTASTIC

case04 June 18, 2005 07:20

Scott; thanks. yes, the Kharma's were (and are) terrific.....but.....it has become obvious that the VR9's match or slightly exceed all the Kharma's strengths and add much more....more below. you are most welcome to visit again to hear for yourself.

Eric; breakin is now fully complete and i have begun moving the VR9's around......with wonderful results. the Kharmas were designed to be straight ahead with no toe in by Charles Von Oostrum......if the Kharma's are toed in much the soundstage collapses. the Von Schweikerts like to be aimed at the outside of the listener's shoulders, similar to how Wilson recommends......and the balance seems about right.

yesterday the system took a quantum leap; i moved the speakers back about three inches and the mid-bass thickness essentially vanished, resulting in dramatically improved clarity and immediacy. out of maybe 100 cuts i've played since i made the change (i was listening till 2am), i heard a slight bloat on three cuts; at about 20% the degree i had been hearing......and this was one move back 3 inches. i also turned up the subwoofer. between those two changes the system snapped into focus and took on a real dynamic grip.

i am in new listening territory as far as my reference. every small improvement now makes me want to hear every recording i own (hence the 100 cuts) since there is more to enjoy with each of these 'close friends'. there were mutiple times that for some reason my eyes started watering. the combination of clarity, coherence, dynamic snap, deep bass extention and limitless highs is just amazing. these elements really exist in service to a musical whole.....in that sense similar to the Kharmas.....but as the dynamics and bass performance is at another level there is just a more involving energy with the VR9's. also, the VR9's are able to 'boogie' at lower volume levels (the Kharma's needed to be pushed a little to get going dynamically) so things are less forced but still very dynamic and extended.

i will continue to explore the placement possibilities.

stay tuned.

mikelavigne June 13, 2005 00:05

mike, i notice that with the kharmas, you have no toe in, but with the new VR's, you have them directly facing the listening position. have you had time to experiment much with placement, or will that come after break-in/pre-amp?

ericeash June 10, 2005 06:07

Mike - congratulations on your new speakers! The pictures look terrific, and it sounds like everything is coming together. It is difficult to imagine better sound than the listening session with the Kharmas! Waiting for delivery and optimization of these new speakers must have been an exercise in patience. Glad that you are finding much enjoyment in the new speakers. Congratulations!

skushino June 08, 2005 20:14

Mmalin; both amps are really excellent with the VR9's. as the speakers are still breaking in (just 3 more days to a full 30 day breakin) i am playing the DarTZeel mostly (prefer ss for overnight breakin although i have played the Tenor Hybrids overnight 3 or 4 times without incident).

since i can adjust gain on the tweeters and sub it is easy to optimize both amps. there are system and room issues which are influences on the relative performance of the amps. the DarTZeel is not the perfect match for the Placette passive RVC. as the Dart sounds best with it's DC compensation turned off this seems to possibly having some impedence issues with the Placette.....and may be slightly lowering dynamics. the Tenors are definitely sounding punchier than the DarTZeel (and the VR9's are waaay puchier than the Kharmas )but this also seems to cause my mid-bass 'hump' in the room to be more prominent.

i have a plan to solve the mid-bass hump when i finally determine exactly what it is doing when the speakers are fully dialed in. also, i expect to end up with the DarTZeel preamp which will solve any preamp/amp impedence problems.

so we have some issues which await further investigation. until i start moving things around and see how much location and various settings might have on ultimate amp/speaker performance i am firmly on the fence as far as amp preference.

as i have gone back and forth two or three times on my preference i need to wait for things to settle in more before i can draw conclusions.

i figured it would take about one year to figure out the room and optimize it's performance......i have about 6 months left.

mikelavigne June 08, 2005 04:57

Mike
How did you find the Tenor's vs the DarTZeel with the VR9's? Power? Soundstaging? Emotion?

mmalin June 07, 2005 01:32

Cinematic Systems;

i had seriously considered adding subs to my Exquisites. i particularly researched getting a pair of REL Studios and then later possibly a pair of Kharma subs. the more i thought about it i just deceided it was not the way i wanted to go. i have never heard any system with separate bass enclosures of ANY kind truely integrate like i was used to with the Exquisites. based on my experience so far with the VR9's......bass integration seems seamless along with extreme bass dynamics and extention.

once the VR9's are fully broken in (another 10 days or so) the designer of the VR9's will visit my room and help to dial them in. he has a full suite of measurement gear. it's possible that i may be able to provide final measurements.

it's also possible that Richard Bird (Rives Audio) may visit again......he has all the cool measuring tools too.

one of the very interesting things about this month long breakin process is that i have been constantly listening, then adjusting the gain setting of the three tweeters and subwoofers. every day after that days breakin i adjust the gain of the tweeters to see how much i can push the tweeters before i get any distortion. i have been switching back and forth between the DarTZeel and the Tenors......as well as seeing how each amp deals with the various settings.

in my 10 years as an audiophile......i have never been able to learn so much about cause and effect of particular drivers and how things interact.

bottom line; i am very intimately getting to know these speakers. what was looking like a very intimidating speaker system has become really a tool that can be precisely tuned. this breakin process should make it easy for me to live with the VR9's.......had i purchased them already broken in i would never have had the patience to go thru the tedious process of learing how tiny adjustments will effect the musical message.

i will say with much confidence; the VR9SE's are able to fully match the Midi Exquisite's strength for strength. there is no performance area where the Midi's surpass the VR9's......at least in my room to my ears. since the VR9's are still breaking in i don't want to try and define the differences in character. i will say that they mostly have a very similar character other than bass extention and dynamics over the whole frequency spectrom.

mikelavigne June 01, 2005 04:27

Hihimaniac; back in 2003 Joesph Cohen sent me a pair of his Natarja Series XLR interconnects to try. it turned out that there was a 'short' somewhere in one of the cables and i never did listen to them. he has since 'beefed up' the construction of his cables and i doubt that might be a problem again. i have read a few very positive things about the Prana wire and no doubt they sound very good. the fact is that i am happy with my cables at this time and with speakers and amps to sort out cables are not a focus for the moment.....i will keep the Prana in mind.

Greg;

thanks. i wish i could join you guys this weekend.....maybe next time. or we could meet at my house.

Bluegiutar;

if i end up with the DarTZeel then biamping is very likely as my budget allows.....i do think the DarTZeel preamp would be the way i would go again assuming i go with the DarTZeel long term. what i heard at CES with that combination was amazing.

more later on the VR9's......

mikelavigne May 31, 2005 13:59

Mike,

Have you ever tried the PRANA Wire Cosmos speaker cable in your system? It is the most musical cable I have ever listened to. I was a die hard Transparent user until I heard the PRANA. It sells for a quarter of the price the Transparent Opus lists for. Anyway, just trying to save you some money without sacrificing sonic benefits.

hifimaniac May 30, 2005 23:19

Mike,

Glad to see you are enjoying your new speakers.

The BAAS is meeting for another weekend of audiophile fun
next week - similar to when you were here - at OB's and Tony's.

Dr. Gregory Greenman

[email protected] May 27, 2005 17:27

Mike,
the picture is really nice. thanks for sharing with us. It seems you are listening faily nearfield. how close to the speaker from your listening position? Are you going to Bi Amp your speaker? I m kind of waitng for Dartzeel to release their preamp, and get some feedback to help me make the purchase decision.

so, besides the bass improvement over the Kharma, will you say overall the VR9 are more to your taste? or they are just have different presentation, and VR9 are better for your room?

Thanks for your reply.
Enjoy the music.
Blueguitar

rubyjunior May 24, 2005 15:34

2 1000 watt 15" subs will do that for you, welcome to the "got bass?" club. :)

Never understood why you didn't get subs in the first place with such a big room. Unless you knew you were getting the VR-9's then.

Will Rives or anyone be running some measurements to make sure all the eq's are set right or was that done when the speakers were setup by VSR? Love to see the measurements.

Glad you like the VSR's thought it was a risky move but it paid off for you.

cinematic_systems May 23, 2005 02:30

Why did i buy new speakers?

why did i build a new room?

sometimes i wondered exactly WHY i did these things.

NOT ANYMORE!

for the last couple of hours i have been having a blast. the midrange and tweeters on the new speakers are not yet broken in.....BUT.....the bass is pretty much there. sooooooooo......i have the room and the speakers......it's was time to explore DEEEEEP BASS.

i have never been one to focus on a part of the music.......every part should serve the music.....but what the hell......if ya got a Ferrari.....why not try 200mph.

out came some stuff i've not really spent time with in the past....

Pomp & Pipes, RR #58
Organ Blaster Sampler, Michael Murray, Telarc CD-80277
Watermark, Enya (track 10)
She, Harry Connick (track 7)
Film & the BB's, (track 4)
The Hunter, Jennifer Warnes (Way Down Deep).

there had been some talk that the problem with the deep bass on the Kharma Exquisites had been too much bass trapping in my new room......WRONG!

i am getting below 15hz flat in my room, very even, articulate and tunefull. the room really supports low bass and the speakers integrate that bass performance wonderfully. this sets a new standard for me as far as bass performance.

on 'Joe Slam and the Spaceship' from 'She' and.......on 'Funhouse' from 'Flim and the BB's' the bass is deep, tight and flowing with lots of slam and control. there is a sense of effortless ease with everything.

i'm no Organ music expert but i now 'get it'......and can understand the attraction to it. there is a feeling of 'deeper meanings' with some of that music......it just sorta washes over you with power and majesty.

it's like i discovered a section of our hobby that had been hidden up to now......finally it all makes a little more sense.

sorry for the rambling but just got caught up with the music. i guess this could be considered a 'guilty pleasure'......i hope the music police don't get me.

mikelavigne May 23, 2005 01:09

those Black 'beauties' are owned by a local friend. my cherry Tenors will be returning from an upgrade in Montreal on Tuesday to join the DarTZeel in the fun.

the VR9's are not yet 'ready for prime time'......but they will be in a couple of weeks.

mikelavigne May 22, 2005 21:56

would love to hear the things now ! Will have to wait to hear your final review.

The Dart sure looks small and lonely there between the VR9's. Those custom black Tenor 300's (on sale on A'gon) would look awesome there ... for those Star War types.

thom_y May 22, 2005 21:07

System updated; finally was able to download some VR9 pictures.

mikelavigne May 22, 2005 15:05

Wow, very Darth Vader looking! The Dark Side flatters your room. Do you have some Sith music to play?

cjfrbw May 20, 2005 19:53

Very nice - they look much better than the silver-grey ones we saw at CES. Thanks for providing the snaps.

Regards,

metralla May 20, 2005 05:19

Blueguitar; i say this with all sincerety; i have yet to hear a more dynamically complete system than what i am now hearing. i have heard other systems that are in the same league dynamically but not beyond. the single DarTZeel seems to provide all that is asked of it.....my senses tell me i am at the top of the dynamic food chain.

that said, my brain tells me that two DarTZeels (or maybe 4 Tenor Monos) will go even further in terms of dynamics, signal purity, and sense of ease.

both MES and Hooper report benefits with a pair of DarTZeels......and my room is larger than either of theirs.

is one DarTZeel enough for the VR9?

you bet!

mikelavigne May 20, 2005 05:18

O.K. guys.....here are a few picture links.

VR9SE in black, without grill

pair of VR9SE's with grills

single VR9SE with grills

rear of VR9SE, note the jumpers hanging down to allow the Opus to connect near the floor

i tried to upload pictures into my page above but Audiogon's photo upload wasn't working.

BTW, the speaks are progressing nicely......

mikelavigne May 20, 2005 04:40