JF,

i am tempted to go for a much larger transformer; is there a point where a transformer is too big for my 2-phase, 70amp, 220V line and it would be less 'agile' to the transient needs?

in other words, is there a 'sweet spot' of matching transformers to the current potential for best efficiency?

would a larger transformer somehow be noiser? (i'm not talking about ambient noise but line noise).

regarding my power cord experience with the digital amps in the speakers; my big moment of performance gain was when i replaced the 'off the shelf' power cords i was using on the VR9's with the Jena Labs Fundamental One's. it was as if the whole system got a huge upgrade by dramtically reducing bass distortion. by using the Jena i both improved the power cord and added a conditioner......as well as put a brick-wall on the digital hash feedback from the digital amp in the VR9's back into my power grid. i have not A/B'd stock-to-Jena's with the MM3's ICE amp; but i suspect the same advantage was gained. in general i have found that high quality power cords make more difference than interconnect in system performance; but not quite as much as speaker cables. if i were to add the effect of the Oyaide outlets to the power cords it becomes collectively as much difference as a amp or source change.

i agree that as i have my own transformer at the street, i'm at the beginning of the trunk line for my neighborhood, and i live in a low RF/EMI environment that my starting point of noise is low; but i still am expectant of a clear gain of noise reduction and improved transient performance from the proper transformer isolation.

another 'prominent' local audiophile was able to attain significant gains in a similar enviroment by actually getting the power company to upgrade his transformer at the street and then adding another one near his room. my street transformer is only 7 years old and i'm not going to do the politicing to get that done; but i may in the future. i have also considered getting a separate street transformer and separate meter service just for my system.......

at this point i have no plans or even thoughts for other changes in my system......the power grid is the only place left to find performance gains.

mikelavigne April 06, 2007 12:51

Fsarc,
I fear that I am not qualified enough to be able to judge filter quality based on a photo(I am a management consultant, not an electrician)

One remark: if you ask your electrician to measure the power consumed by the MM3 on loud music, you will always get an average value, which I doubt will be above 1000W for the full system (typically intensity measurements are done with amperometric clamp, which give an average value on a certain time window). During transients, the power consumed is much higher (in particular with the dynamic headroom of a good turntable), so I would always dimension the transformer rating as larger than the max theoretical power of the system.

Mike,
I am wondering if you will hear the same kind of additional benefit as Fsarc with a transformer: your power supply is directly from the grid, you don't share it with a bunch of neighbors like all of us who live in big cities, so there shouldn't be too many parasite on it (most of it should be already filtrated with your Jena). I am curious to hear the results!
Last question for you guys, how big is the impact of the Jena (or other expensive power cables) when used for the bass module of the MM3? Before spending >$3000, I want to make sure it is really worth it...

stereotaipei April 06, 2007 10:16

JF- Great, informative post.

Mike- I think the 7.5 kVA is still more than enough even with a couple of monster amps. The MM3s are relatively efficient, have built-in 1000W powered woofers, so there is no way you are going to use, or clip, the full output of a 600 watt mono block into the midranges and tweeter. Your ears and the drivers will probably give out first. Once everything is hooked up, you can have your electrican measure the amount of electricity your system is consuming while playing some loud, dynamic music. That will give you an idea of the headroom you have left. I think the usage will be a lot lower than you think. I have my whole system powered off of one 20 amp breaker with no issues. I use a second, smaller 130 VA isolation transformer to keep the digital (EMM) isolated.

At a minimum, the 7.5 kVA iso will require a 240 V 40 amp 10 gauge input feed. You can easily do this with your exisiting wiring to the barn. Given the 70 amp, 220V feed to the barn, you could definitely feed a larger (10 kVA)transformer in the future if you require it.

The only area of potential improvement I can see on the MGE/UPS units is in the "filter" board. This board is connected in parallel to the secondary outputs and it looks like there could be some room for improvement in the quality of the parts on the board.

JF- Care to take a look at the filter board and comment if I send you a close up photo of it?

fsarc April 05, 2007 13:19

JF, two additional thoughts.

after my 'gripping' experience with the Oyaide i will never underestimate that issue again with power.

i still have 2 Jena Labs outlets on my amp wall and one near my sources. before i upgrade those i should likely invite some other locals for a quick A/B. it will also allow me to make sure i'm not being self-delusional.

mikelavigne April 05, 2007 13:03

JF, thanks; i appreciate the explaination.

if a 7.5kVA gives me 200% headroom that is what was concerning me. based on the relative modest cost involved here i can always get a larger transformer in the future if i need to. there is plenty of room where it will be for it to be 2 or 3 times as large. not likely that would be necessary.

i will make sure that i get 'good contact' with the transformer.

my 'next amp' is likely a pair of yet to be built dart monoblocks that would more than likely use 2X the current that the stereo dart draws. i should still be just fine.

my only concern would be if i do any 'amp shootouts'. maybe i need 10kVA or 15kVA. based on my circut breaker and wire rated at 70amps 220V......how large a transformer would still yeild some benefit?

my intuition agrees with your 'clamping' comment. the Oyaide clamping is dramatically many-times as strong as any outlet i have ever used. all the fancy metalurgy doesn't hurt but the degree of contact is probably most of it.

mikelavigne April 05, 2007 12:51

Mike,
seems like Frank already answered your questions on the phone. Let me just add a few comments
I would for sure put the transformer in the barn, not in the garage. The 145 feet of cable from the garage are by definition like a big antenna. They will absorb ambient RF. So if you want to reduce noise you need to install the transformer the closest to the devices connected to it.
Installations is really straightforward, the key is the attention to the details (good contact..) and for this a electrician doesn't always help

I don't see what an Halcyonic could bring to the transformer. As current is going through the coils of the transformer, it generates radial forces that make the coil vibrate. That's why you hear a hum... So by definition the transformer itself is vibrating. Your problem is here is not about vibration, but about quality of conduction: what you need in particular to take care of is the quality of the contacts at the exit of the transformer.
The installation should be really straightforward.

Btw, my hypothesis on why you hear such a difference with the Oyaide is also that 95% of it is coming from quality of contact, not from elimination of vibration (a carbon plate is nice... from a marketing and aesthetic point of view). On any standard plugs, you have a poor contact at the microscopic level, generating very small electrical arcs and therefore noise.
On the other side, elimination of vibration is much more important when you have electronic circuit / low power applications.

Regarding your question on the required power of the transformer, let me try to explain how to dimension it (I am not an electrician...). The problem is that the manufacturer doesn't give the rating of the transformer both in VA (used by electricians to dimension breakers and wire diameter) and Watt (for matching of equipment). For a pure resistance like a light bulb, one VA=1W. For a small size UPS, typically 1VA=0.6 to 0.7W (this coefficient is called the power factor of the equipment). Assuming this value (to be on the safe side, but you should ask the manufacturer), a 7.5kVA transformer corresponds to 4.5kW power supply.
Now how would you use these 4.5kW? Maximum consumption of one Dartzeel is 900W. MM3's Icepower is 1000W. All sources consume quite nothing, so the real problem is amps. So your current system probably consumes in peak power something like 2100W. With a 7.5kVA system, you can basically supply 2 times your system, so more than enough (if your next amp is not going to be a big true pure class A).
Now, of course you can always find situations in which it is not going to be enough: if you decide that you want to have a home theater with all 8 channels amplified by pure class A amplifiers (such as Gryphon Antileon), you would probably need 40kVA... (...)
hope it helps!

stereotaipei April 05, 2007 07:12

Nate, glad you enjoyed it (the scotch i mean). and i appreciate the kind words.

you are welcome any time.

mikelavigne April 05, 2007 03:26

Frank; i do have 2-phase 70amp 220V. it appears that the 7.5kV version will easily fit into my cabinet below my panel. it should be easy to unscrew the cabinet from the wall, pull it out, and remove the cedar paneling to expose the 220v wire.

i need to call the local 'hot-shot' 'electrician to the stars' that the local high end shops use to do this.

this is across the hallway from my room.....so whatever slight noise that the transformer does emit should be limited by the cabinet and wall and door. if necessary i can line the inside of the cabinet with sound proof.

if i really want to go overboard i could get a Halcyonics for the transformer. that may be a bit much even for me. OTOH after hearing the effect of the Oyaide outlets i am done predicting what resonance control (and clamping power) might accomplish.

thanks again for the coaching. it makes it nice when you have already done all the investigation and testing. i can just plug it in and enjoy.

mikelavigne April 05, 2007 03:19

Mike- It was nice speaking with you earlier tonight. Saved me a lengthy post. :-]

Just make sure you contact a reputable electrician in your area for the installation. You may want to disucss things (exisiting wire size, location, etc.) with him prior to purchasing the iso.

Frank

fsarc April 05, 2007 01:04

Hi Mike,
Thanks for having me over! Reading about a system like yours builds high expectations, and last weekend my expectations were exceeded. The only thing that can compete with your system and source material is your hospitality- and maybe some of that scotch ;)

Enjoy your spring! Hopefully you won't get any more snow...

Thanks again
Nate

chico_j April 05, 2007 00:11

Frank, i think the line to my deicated room panel is 3-phase 70amp 220V. it runs from my garage in my house to the barn......a total of 125 feet of cable inside conduit. then at my barn panel i have 2 dedicated ground rods. the panel has 11 circuts which then feed the outlets in my room only.

the HVAC, lights and regular outlets in my room run off a 100amp panel in the barn.

with 70amps would you recommend the 7.5kVA model. i am most concerned about if i were to get a larger amp(s) in the future or even multi-channel....would 7.5kVA be sufficient to avoid any current limiting?

i have lots of room where my panel is in my garage to place a large transformer and no one can hear it. is that where it would do the most good? or should it be at the barn end of the line? i do have a cabinet in the hallway outside my room below my dedicated panel where the transformer could go; would there be any performance benefit to having it closer?

i'm ready to pull the trigger on this as soon as i figure it out.

if you think there would be any benefit from a 10kVW unit i would go that way.......i really have no clue.

is bigger better?

i don't care about mechanical noise or hum as long as it does not pollute the line.

mikelavigne April 05, 2007 00:04

JF- I don't know if it can be used with 50Hz. You would have to contact MGE to be sure. I clicked on their European/Asian products and they don't have any isolation transformers listed.

As far as the noise level goes, mine is actually in the room with me behind a closet utility door. It is undetectable at the listening position. Using my SPL meter, I can't get a reading at the lowest setting (which is 30db) holding the meter about 4-5 feet away.

It is very cheap, but for most there will be the additonal cost of installation.

fsarc April 04, 2007 20:19

Fsarc,
$776 is really cheap! As you say, worth trying. My only concern is the noise: they indicate 50dB max at 3 feet. 50dB is a lot, much more than a hum! I would still hear it even if I put it in the next room... Is it really so loud from your experience?
Can it also be used with 50Hz? they indicate 60Hz in the documentation, but if it is just a coil-based transformer, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
JF

stereotaipei April 04, 2007 17:24

Stereotaipei,

the conditioners were the Isotek GII Titan for amps, and the G11 Nova for sources.

2 weeks prior i had tried the Nova and it did improve things a bit.....which was prior to installing the Oyaide outlets. then on Sunday i slightly preferred my Jena's by themselves with sources and they were about equal on my dart. which tells me two things;

that one benefit of the Isotek was a better clamping system for the Jena's. once the Oyaide was installed and that was already present the benefit of improving on the Jena's was gone.

the Jena Labs fundamental One power cords are damn good and equal an expensive power conditioner that many of my friends are raving about.

i'm not sure that this comparison was definitive as we used some Oyaide power cords with sources but due to logistics needed to use my Jena's on the dart and ICE amps in my speakers.

YMMV

i have 7 Fundamantal One power cords in my system at about $1800 retail each....the Isotek units are $4200 and $2700 each.....i can't remember which is which.

regarding the dynamic effect of a transformer; i agree it is a concern.....until i hear it i cannot know for sure.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 13:42

"you hear all the defects... and end up throwing away 30% of your recordings..."

what is nice is that when i hear a recording where i like the music but it's edgy or somehow flawed i can reduce the tweeter gain and richen the crossover.....or if the bass is boomy i can lean out the bass. it is 10 seconds to change or change back. OTOH there is no place to hide......different pressings or even different versions of the same CD sound different.

with my RCA Shaded Dogs Lps i do drop the tweeter settings an additional 1 db due their 'tipped up' treble......and a few of those Shaded Dog SACD's (the one's mastered on the DCS gear) i also do likewise. any time there is a non-musical characteristic that distracts me i can deal with it.

i have a friend that uses tubes on his Harbeths listening to his tt with his Cardas Heart cart; he spends lots of time listening to live orchestral music and travels around going to hear concerts around the country and even the world. he prefers a very full bass, a recessed treble, and listens at relatively low volume. the MM3's are the first speaker i have owned that i could adjust to where he was completely satisfied where he loved them......he called the strings and vocals 'correct' and 'very sweet' and thought the overall balance correct. it is far different than my personal tastes......but how can i argue. what i enjoy is that the MM3's can pull that off without losing their magic. i listened to his setup after he left for a while......it was magical but not as involving for me.

my opinion is that the clarity in the mid-range, naturalness, and coherence of the MM3's allows it retain it's magic no matter how the frequency extremes are adjusted.

anyway; as my personal tastes evolve the MM3's can follow that. and if anyone is afraid that the MM3's aren't 'this way' or 'that way'.....they can be.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 13:17

Mike, Stereotaipei- Regarding the MGE/Topaz isolation transformer- I think the key is to make sure you install one with a sufficient kVA rating so as to not saturate the transformer core. I have a 5 kVA model which is more than enough for my system. There have been no negative effects with the iso in my system. In fact, since I can do the work myself, I recently switched back to dedicated lines right off the circuit panel. Performance definitely dropped off in my system. Putting the iso back resulted in a lower noise floor, smoother highs, better staging and imaging, and actually better dynamics. I think the perceived increase in dynamics is from the reduction of the noise floor. Macro and micro dynamics are preserved providing a greater feeling of overall dynamics.

As with any with any component, tweak, etc, it may be system dependent so I cannot say everyone will experience the same effects. I have been through a lot of "audiophile" power conditioners (BPT, Shunyata, Sound Application, Running Springs, Audiophile APS) and definitely feel the iso transformer has been the best in actually lowering the noise floor in my system. All the other products make some fancy claims, but never provide any specs regarding what they actually do (BPT and APS do provide some specs/data). The MGE/ Topaz units are spec’d to provide 140 dB of common mode noise reduction and 65 dB of normal mode noise reduction. Given their intended applications, they have to provide verifiable noise reduction (amongst other features) and not rely on fancy metallurgy, mystical compounds, or esoteric wiring.

My 5 kVA Mge/Topaz Power-Supress 100 was $776. A true bargain for what is does. Some of the drawbacks to this approach are having to hire an electrician to do the installation, having the room to support the transformer, and making sure it is sufficiently isolated form the listening room as it will generate a low level hum.

Mike for your application, MGE/Topaz makes a 7.5 kVA model which is more than enough. I honestly feel the 5 kVA iso would also be sufficient. If you are truly set on a 10 kVA transformer, there is another company that makes very high quality isolation transformers- Controlled Power Company- 5-25 kVA. Given the price of these units, I would certainly give it a try before spending the big $$$ on the Equitech cabinet. There really isn’t much to the installation. It took me about 45 minutes to install mine. More info below-

http://www.controlledpwr.com/productDetails.php?id=41
http://www.mgeups.com/products/pdt120/powerc/tpz100/t100data.pdf

fsarc April 04, 2007 13:06

Mike,
Yes, I forgot to say that the versatility of setting of the MM3 is also one of the key reason why I preferred them. I was amazed to hear how much difference your change of 2.5dB on the tweeter can generate...

aargh... I cannot imagine that the MM3 even sounds better with the Oyade... you need to stop trying new things or I will need to find a new job to finance this hobby...

I agree that the Dart combination with MM3 is magical. Wslam says the same about the Dart with the Mini (and he tried a lot of amps before deciding for the Dart): looks like this amp works very well with dynamic / transparent to the source speakers. These speakers are magnifying lenses: your hear all the defects... and end up throwing away 30% of your recordings...

When I listened to the mini, they did sound for me a little bit analytical with the Spectral. Not with the ARC Ref 210 but I was losing a little bit on the Spectral dynamic. Seems like the Dart is the best of two worlds.

When I listened to your MM3, I didn't feel like it was worth tweaking further the settings: what I heard was very natural and convincing already!

Regarding conditioners: which one did you try already? how much is the power-suppress 100 transformer? how different is it from a conditioner (in term of how it works)? I also really wonder if you don't lose on dynamic...

stereotaipei April 04, 2007 10:55

some brief added thoughts; i would love to hear the Mini with the dart; i've only heard the Mini with the Rowland 201's (as i recall)......which while a nice amp it's certainly not the last word in naturalness......and with such a detailed speaker as the Mini the Rowland's shortcomings are revealed.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 05:18

Stereotaipei, i wish you had heard the system with those Oyaide outlets......quite a profound difference in overall refinement. my jaw is still dropping with every long-time reference disc being redefined after 3 days.

i've listened to the Mini's twice at shows. i was very impressed but agree that it can sound a bit analytical. it certainly images wonderfully. very dynamic and refined. i feel the MM3's equal the Mini's in both detail and imaging; but i've adjusted mine to be sweeter and more natural sounding. if i raise the tweeter gain, reduce the crossover frequency, and lean out the bass a bit......the MM3 is a much finer, more precise, speaker. more 'apparent' detail and immediacy. but not as much like music. it would have been interesting to get your impressions with that sort of setup.

in a couple of months you will be able to hear that for yourself.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 05:11

Islandear; you are welcome.

and no; it will never end......the onion always seems to have another layer to peel.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 04:55

Frank, i am seriously considering your isolation transformer as an inexpensive alternative to the big Equi=tech panel system. it would be easily installed in my garage in the house just inside my A/C meter. it's cheap enough that if it does not improve things no big deal......as long as it does not restrict dynamics having the isolation cannot hurt.

i agree that the MM3's in this room create quite the 'test tube' environment. i find that the slightest adjustment in anything is noticable. it does make finding the sweet spot quite obvious.

Sunday we were comparing some power conditioners to my Jena Labs cables. i had switched back and forth between digital and vinyl a few times. when i do that i attenuate the tweeter 2.5db due to the high frequency energy of my vdH Colibri cart. at one point i thought that the power conditioner was a bit less open and extended and softer sounding than the Jena's......it turned out i had forgot to switch my tweeter settings back to the 'digital' position. i adjusted it and then i could not reliably tell the difference between the Jena's and the $3k power conditioner.

i like it when things like that happen. it proves to me that my ears are acting objectively. i heard a difference since there was one......and when there wasn't a difference i did not hear one. everyone needs a bit of self applied double-blind once in a while. with the ultimate resolution of the MM3's things are always so easy to pick out.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 04:51

Zdeng,
Regarding my listening impressions in Mike room: I can only fully share his comments: full range, transparency, emotion on voices... (sorry, English is not my native language... I am lacking vocabulary to express the emotion you feel listening to them)
First, I want to emphasize again that the Magico Mini are GREAT speaker. If Alon Wolf wouldn't have decided to change distributor in Taiwan, my order wouldn't have been canceled and I would be the happy owner of a pair of Mini today. Since I listened to the Mini in a different room, it is difficult for me to make an objective comparison with MM3. I don't know how much from the good impression I got with the MM3 is coming from Mike's room and from the quality of the other components he is using. One thing is sure: I would be happy with any of these speakers, so the choice between both of them was tough.

Even if I find both the Mini and the MM3 at the same level of performance, I just chose the MM3 for a few reasons:
- I am now moving from Taiwan to Japan, from a small room (15'x17') to a larger room (18'x26'). In my previous room, the Mini was the ideal speaker, I would never have bought a pair of MM3
- If I would have bought the mini, I would have added 2 torus subwoofers. The integration of the MM3 woofer is probably less problematic than with 2 torus. I was concerned about spending months finding the right position, etc
- the MM3 probably have an edge on big orchestral work (Mahler symphonies... are even better on MM3), as with 2 mid-range and 15" woofers drivers are less stressed
- With the Mini, I was still hesitating on the perfect match in term of amp: I listened to them both with ARC Ref 210 and Spectral amps, liked it but I wouldn't have bought any of them. The Dartzeel is amazing, but would probably be not powerful enough with the Mini in my new room. Wslam is using the Dart with Mini in a smaller room, and he loves it! The MM3 (93dB sensitivity, impedance never dipping below 5 Ohm) are a perfect match for the Dart... so I bought both of them!
- the ribbon tweeter of the MM3 is sweeter than the Mini. Very similar to the Magico model 6 sound.
- at $38k, the MM3 are a steal: the finition is fantastic (same level as the Magico), and it cost me less than a pair of mini with 2 torus!
- as with the Mini, the bass of the MM3 is sealed: you would love it! In Mike's room, bass goes very deep but you don't hear a boomy bass as with Maxx2 for example (people say that the Maxx2 bass is great, personally I was very disappointed the two times I listened to them: too prominent and not clean!)
On the other side, the Mini probably image better and are even a little bit more transparent/analytical than the MM3. I also loved the concept of having a smallish speaker that sounds like a mega-speaker!
But they have a similar sound signature: If you like Kharma or Magico sound, you would probably like the MM3.

Both are so great speakers that if I would have to wait 6 months to get my MM3 and only 2 months for the Mini, I would go for the Mini... that tells how amazing it is that a small 2 ways like the mini can compete with a huge speaker like the MM3.
I am 100% convinced that I took the right decision? No... I would have to listen to both speakers in the same room with same equipment to be 100% sure I bought the best one. But I am sure that any of them will satisfy me for the next 10 years...
Who knows... perhaps I am going to end up buying a pair of Mini for my 2nd home...

stereotaipei April 04, 2007 01:44

Stereotaipei,

Would you please tell us your experience in Mike's listening room?

I do not have a chance to go there, but I would like to know what you think.

Why do you now want to buy MM3 instead of Magico Mini?

Thanks

zdeng April 03, 2007 18:14

Fsarc,
I see you are using the MGE/Topaz Power-Supress 100 transformer: can you tell more about it? In which configuration do you use it? What is the contribution of an isolation transformer from your experience?

PS: I made today my deposit from my pair of MM3... after having listened to it at Mike's home

stereotaipei April 03, 2007 10:11

Mike, thanks for the info re Oyaide. I have wondered how much better they might be, considering how enthusiastic some folks have been about FIM and Furutech outlets - not to mention the Oyaides. Still another facet of the chain to consider - and I thought the PS Audio outlets were a step up...will this never end?

islandear April 02, 2007 14:55