this room and system is the result of 10 years in High End audio. my
system has been stable for a couple of years (except for transport and
amplifier upgrades within the same brand). the room has been in the
planning stage for about 18 months and i actually moved in a little over
a month ago.
my audio philosphy is to have the system get out
of the way of the event. i like as pure and simple a signal path as
possible and, at this point, prefer passive to active gain stages. i
love all the formats and enjoy having lot's of music.....vinyl is my
favorite but i listen to at least 60% digital. the new room really
reveals the benefits of SACD over redbook.
the system and room
truely allow the event to be recreated before me. i love the way the
speakers disappear and i am transported to another place/time.
i have choosen my cables, sources, amps, speakers to have as little of their own sound as possible.
recently, i upgraded my digtial transport from the modified Philips
SACD 1000 to the new emmlabs CDSD.....this was a significant step upward
in performance.
i have written an article in Positive Feedback regarding my room building experience.....here is a link;
new version of these cables, a big step over the amazing TRSC model i have used for 10 years. fantastic performance.
WADAX SA Reference DAC
Wadax Reference Dac----state of the art dac with 2 separate power supplies. the best dac i have heard by a good margin. below is a link to a thread about my Wadax experience.
Arya RevOpod isolation footer (32 used under the 5 Wadax Chassis).
height and tension adjustable. the Wadax dac, server, and server power supply chassis all use 8 footers, so it's critical to be able to adjust height and tension to have an even support for optimal performance. RevOpod's are unique in those attributes making them ideal for this use.
https://www.arya-audio.com/revopod
CS Port LFT1 turntable w/arm
air bearing platter and air bearing linear tracking arm; string drive with zero feedback dc motor, low pressure, low flow air system with zero noise air box.
world class musical flow, nuance and delicacy, combined with authority and ease. serves the music completely.
Esoteric T1 Turntable
magnetic drive/rim drive idler turntable with torque adjustment.
with the deletion of my NVS turntable, i was able to move the Taiko Tana active isolation shelf to under the Esoteric T1. this has upgraded the performance of the T1 significantly. objectively small changes, but musically quite profound up tics in realism and immersion. more nuance, greater music focus, better bass articulation.
https://www.esoteric.jp/en/product/t1/top
Esoteric G1X Master Clock
Master Clock Generator for speed improvement for the T1 turntable. significant improvement in music realism.
https://www.esoteric.jp/en/product/g1x/top
Durand --Tosca tonearm.
gimbal bearing design. Tosca is on the Esoteric T1 turntable
Primary Control 12" FCL tone arm
Field Coil Loaded uni-pivot tone arm. with power supply. mounted on the Esoteric T1 turntable. amazing natural and very high resolution tone arm. link below.
12 inch tonearm, stainless steel. used for the Sumile mono cartridge.
https://glanz.tech/e/collection/mh1200s1000s900s/
Experience Music/Intact Audio phono corrector + silver wound MC Trio SUT combo for three different tonearms.
bespoke tubed phono preamplifier. silver wound, with custom dual power supplies.
https://myemia.com/LR.html
LFD -3- Phono Cables DIN to RCA
3 sets of very high performance phono cables. amazing performance. built by Dr. Richard Bews in the UK.
one cable uses a DIN to RCA short Dongle + an RCA to RCA interconnect. the Dongle improves the performance of the DIN connection. details at the link below.
two Etsuro Golds, ---a pair of Reference MC Phono Cartridges.
duraluminim (A7075) body, 24 carat 'Kinpaku' Gold Leaf finish, diamond cantiliver. .3mv output, 4 ohms. these are both special versions of the Etsuro Gold.
one is mounted on the CS Port linear tracker.
one is mounted on the Primary Control FCL arm.
finest cartridge i have heard by a significant margin. WOW!
Audio Technica MC-2022 60th Anniversary cartridge
uses the unified stylus cantilever design. which results in extreme lack of distortion and linearity. remarkable neutrality and ability to dig out detail and keep it natural and musical.
https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at-mc2022
Murasakino Sumile Mono phono cartridge
MC cartridge for mono records, .04mv output. tracking force 3gms. finest monaural cartridge i have heard. competes on musical refinement with the top stereo cartridges.
Ampex twin ATR-102----one 1/4" and one 1/2" reel to reel master recorder
hot rodded by ATR Service Inc----Andrew Kosobutsky. significant upgrades over stock. each interfacing with hot rodded Ampex MR-70 preamps. the new tape deck performance standard in my opinion.
active isolation under 5 separate components: (1) the NVS turntable, (2) the MSB dac, (3) the darTZeel preamp, (4 + 5) both darTZeel mono block amplifiers. custom modifications by Taiko Audio add a linear power supply plus panzerholtz top layer + Daiza platform to provide full frequency resonance attenuation to each platform.
Taiko Audio Daiza isolation platform--22 used in the system
Panzerholtz Platform with spiral cutouts reducing mid and high frequency resonance while retaining life and energy and not changing tonality.
22 Daiza platforms in the system of various sizes under every piece of the signal path.
Evolution Acoustics 'system' power cables
a new version of the TRPC model i used on my darTZeel 468 mono blocks for the last 10 years. a big step up.
Sablon Audio King power cord
used on the Wadax Reference Server power supply.
https://www.sablonaudio.com/power
Absolute Fidelity power interfaces
power cords specifically designed for either motors (tt and tape decks), amplifiers, and components. 11 in the system.
Tripoint Audio Troy Signature
Grounding box for chassis grounding the darTZeel 458 mono block amplifiers + grounding the passive main towers of the Evolution Acoustics MM7 speaker system.
Tripoint Audio Elite
Tripoint Elite grounding box. this does chassis grounding for my sources. it uses a a pair of Tripoint Thor SE Master Reference ground cables for my dart preamp and the MSB Select II dac. there are also 4 Signature Silver ground cables to the two arm boards of the NVS tt, the power supply of the NVS tt, and the SGM server.
Equi=tech 10WQ
10kva balanced Isoltion transformer and distribution panel.
Furutech GTX-D NCF Rhodium duplex outlets
10 in the system. used with 10 Furutech covers and frames. uses NCF (nano crystal formula) material to reduce noise by emitting negative ions.
Wave Kinetics A10 U8 decoupling footers
8 sets-of-4 in the system for individual tuning of each piece of gear.
Auralex T-Fusor diffusers
i use 20 of these. 6 each on the front side walls, and 4 each front ceiling and rear ceiling.
Klaudio Record Cleaning System
automatic record cleaner
Acoustic Revive RL-30 mKIII CD-LP demagnatizer
for demaging any disc.
Furutech DF-2 LP disc flattner
will remove warps from Lps
Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Anniversary Ed.
will cook any cables
Winds ALM-01 Stylus Force Gauge
easy accurate, repeatable, measurments.
i-Tower by Koncept LED floor lamp
(3) are used. best audio light ever. 2 'warm', 1 'cool'.
Quietrock THX 545 drywall
specialized drywall with a 1/4" metal layer. used in my front sidewalls to establish proper room boundaries.
Mike, I have decided now to sell the MM3 (too much of a mess to store them until my second home is built). May I ask you how much you got for your pair?
Hi Mike, Not sure if you remember me, I visited you from taiwan 5 years back. I am also going now through the process of building a dedicated room, fully treated. I will change at the same time my MM3 for a pair of Magico Q7 (actually, keeping the MM3 for a second system in a second home). I have a small technical question: Which type of electrical wires did you use between your equi=tech panel and the power sockets? are you still using the Oyade sockets? would you still consider the equi=tech as the best power system (against competitive solutions like Torus) thanks
not sure I understand your answer Jonathan: there is no passive crossover between drivers? In the bass, the adjustments have an influence on the amplification curve of the booster, right? how does it work if not using a sort of RLC filter? Easier to read your answer than opening my MM3 :-)
Henry, yes, and you can also read this review: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aplhifi/uas1.html
That's what Alex said about it: "The Chinese amp is a little hybrid from a company named BADA. Model # is DC-222. It is $530 when new and it sounds quite horrible. I am completely re-designing it (based on my experience with my big hybrid amp Ive designed a while ago) so it ends up with ECC99 tubes instead of the original12AU7 tubes. It has similarly specified output transistors like in the darTZeel, but 4 per channel instead of 2 per channel in the darT, so it has twice the current output capability. It is 90W/8ohm or 150W/4ohm."
For the moment I am still sticking with my Dart (but need to be more often in Japan to do some burn-in of the APL before doing a fair comparison). Another Dart user found the APL amp vastly superior (more accurate, less coloured, more linear...) and sold the Dart...
PS: btw, when you compare the price of the NWO3.0GO with any other CD player, you need to take into account that it works better without preamp (even better than with the Dart pre inserted...), and that you have a digital in, a analog bypass and even a phono in if you want... So it very much compares with the cost of the playback design + a pre... and we are back at more than 30k
Henry, the 3.0GO is a very different animal than the 2.5... Both sound very differently, it is not a simple upgrade (go on the Forum of APL if you want to see how people compare them). Will be fun to hear a comparison vs. the Playback design. Out of curiosity, I hope it will happen, whatever the result.
well, there may be a difference between an Esoteric "modded by someone" and an APL 3.0, where all electronics is changed. I personally never liked the Esoteric sound, and have no complaints on the 3.0GO... which sounds for me much better than EMM, but would be curious to hear if your new CD player can beat it. Even if Alex is enthusiastic about his own product, it is not much different from Jonathan pushing his own product line... I don't believe it would prevent you from building your own judgment: just ask him to get out of the room when you are listening :-) Btw, I heard also the new amp of APL against my Dart (with the MM3). Cannot have a definitive judgment as I have only 10 hours on it, but so far I still prefer the Dart: more tri dimensional. Will give a final verdict in a few months after break in.
I am still enjoying a lot my MM3... thanks for the listening session one year ago! Given your perpetual quest for perfection, I think you should give a listening to the APL NWO3.0GO. I upgraded 3 months ago my CD player from 2.5 to 3.0: I have to say this is a completely different animal! never heard something so close to analog sources.... so natural, so dynamic and so detailed at the same time. You can listen to it for hours w/o fatigue... and you are hearing things you never heard before on your favorite records... For me at least it is a real breakthrough product. I strongly encourage you to go for a listening session... on your system (you may change your opinion on CD players with tube output, who knows!). If you do the test, it has to be the 3.0. Previous version are completely different.
Another interesting development is I just bought an APL UA-S1 hybrid amp (completely blind). $5000 but it may end up replacing my Dartzeel... Nothing I have to complain about the Dart, but I was curious!... and if I still prefer the Dart I will use the APL in my second system. I am now traveling abroad so didn't have time to do the comparison yet, will keep you posted if you are interested. Only thing I can say in the meantime is that I know one guy who sold his Dart when he bought the APL... and another one who replaced his $35k Edge monoblocks... intriguing enough to try it myself! cheers
Matt, I am using EA power cords with integrated power filter. Read a few pages above in the same thread, we shared a lot on advantages of different power conditioning options.
Regarding the APL NWO2.5T, see the "APL NWO-2.5T A Review of a Classic CD Player" thread on Audiogon. There is also a thread with a blind test comparison of the APL against a few others top players (including EMM, DCS...): "Blind Shoot-out in San Diego -- 5 CD Players"
Matt, Mike decided to keep the MM3. Agree that the EMM-Dart-MM3 configuration seems quite standard on Audiogon. Actually it is quite surprising, that would imply most people buy the full system with Jonathan and don't upgrade just loudspeakers. I am the only one who went for an APL NWO2.5T player instead of EMM and skipped the Dart pre (direct connection works better with the NWO, I know cases of people who sold their Dart pre on Audiogon when they received the NWO player). I chose the Dart as it was already one of my favorite amp even before listening to the MM3. I chose the EA cables without listening to anything else: got positive feedback and I find listening to cables too boring to spend time on it. Don't know if other combinations of cable may work better.
PS: that must be painful to sell such a good system!
I just posted pictures of my own MM3-Dartzeel-APL NWO2.5T system. Spent 2 weekends tweaking speakers and finding the sweet spot. Speaker and CD player are still burning in (only 130hours so far), but the sound is already great (in particular after extensive room treatment with realtraps). Only complaint I have is that several pop-rock CDs sound terrible: too much highs and harsh voices. But my RTA analysis shows a completely flat response. Mike, do you experience the same problem? Does it mean that a lot of pop CDs are recorded with too much emphasis of highs? I listen mainly to Jazz and Classical anyway...
French fries, I love your suggestion of new threat name, one French vote for it! (and btw your post really made me laugh)
In the meantime, I have been going to the gym everyday for the past 2 weeks, to get prepared for the reception of the 1900lbs of MM3 crates this Sunday... with my wife asking my every week why I didn't buy the Magico Mini (only thing she is interested in is that they are much smaller...). Anybody has a friend champion of weightlifting in Tokyo? (...)
We don't see a lot of posts from Mike this days: I bet he spends his time enjoying his new bass set up on the MM3 and his multi channel configuration. Btw Mike, which one do you prefer: stereo or multi? After more than 6 weeks of listening to multichannel , do you recommend the investment over stereo? Are you still missing bass in stereo on the MM3? Besides, do you have any recommendation in term of initial setup for the MM3? It will take time to optimize and stabilize everything: in less than 2 weeks I received my APL NWO2.5T, 29 Mondo traps and now the MM3...
Mtkhl567 and Henry, I spent two hours comparing the AR Ref 210-Ref 3 with the SPectral DMA250 fed by a Spectral preamp (don't remember the number), feeding a pair of Magico Mini. It is true that the Spectral was comparatively much more detailed and dynamic, but on the other side, the sound was too cold and missing "soul". Bottom line,I was not fully satisfied by neither of them.... and ended up buying a Dartzeel!
Henry, I listened to the Model 6 at the same dealer as you (HK I am assuming...). It is true they are great. I got in Taiwan an amazing deal on one pair but decided not to go for it as I imagined how painful it was going to be to move such big pieces of aluminum every time I move in a new flat... I ended up buying MM3 as at least you can cut them in 3 when you transport them... (they arrive in 3 weeks...)
I heard Mike's MM3 a few months ago. Was for me at the same level of performance as the Model 6. Question is how much is coming from the great room he has... When I listened for example to the VS VR11 in the same dealer room as the model 6, I was very disappointed, so I am sure that the Model 6 would sound even better in a better treated room. In Mike's room, would it be better than MM3? possible... Anyway, I already recommended to Mike to listen to the Model 6 when I visited him.
Mike, can you tell more about your new bass settings on the MM3? I am supposed to receive mine in one month, always go to know what is a good starting point...
Mike, Interesting to hear you want to go for multi-channel. Which speakers and amp will you use for the other channels? How are you making the switch from stereo to multi-channel? unplugging and plugging cables or using the Dart pre as a switch? I am asking this as I have a similar problem. I have currently my HT system (Klipsch RF7, RC7, RS7) in my living room. When the MM3 will arrive, I will have the choice to keep both systems separate but in the same room (but will be quite crowded to have both the MM3 and the RF7 on the front of the room...), or I take away the RF7, use them in another room and use also the MM3 as L/R speaker in HT mode. Problem is how do I switch from stereo to HT mode without changing speaker cable? (I will be using the Dart amp directly fed by the APL NWO2.5T CD player, so no pre-amp). Anybody has any idea of a way to do it (w/o deteriorating sound quality)? thanks
Videoht, where are you based? I am living between Taipei and Tokyo and flying every week to HK/Shenzhen... I am building my new system in Tokyo (have only a small flat in Taipei) Regarding APL, from what I know they have an agreement with Esoteric to get access to their players. Given that the company is still very much a "one designer" operation, I can understand they go with their current model (watch what happened to Wadia 10 years ago when they tried to grow to fast and do everything...). Moreover, I don't believe (I may be wrong) that Teac still sells its VRDS-Neo unit separately. If you want to get it, only way is to buy an Esoteric... Problem is that the VRDS-Neo is in a completely different category in term of mechanical design... See this link: http://www.aplhifi.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=560 It is coming from APL forum so for people who don't trust their objectivity, click on the picture links and judge by yourselves... (watch the comparison with Philips...) If you check their website, you will see that APL is trying to develop their own range, starting with DAC.
I have one NWO2.5T on order. Hesitated a lot with a EMM. Finally decided for APL more based on curiosity. Sure that both are great.
just one comment on the APL NWO2.5T: we cannot exactly describe it as a mod. The only part which is kept is the power supply and the VRDS mechanics. Everything else (including the D/A wandler) is replaced. So the sound has nothing to do with an Esoteric player. APL decided to take an Esoteric player as a basis because of the quality of the mechanics, nothing else.
I know it is a too nice system for a garage... but don't want to sell it as I am "emotionally attached" to it as my first good system (built it during my student years... had to teach a lot of math private lessons and resell a lot of hifi systems to other students to pay for it!)
Regarding CD recommendation, I will post the list of my favorite CDs as soon as my HD with my FLAC database is out of the moving container from Taiwan to Japan. If I would be you, wouldn't buy from my list of French music, as you miss a large part of pleasure if you don't understand the lyrics.
There is a lot of impressive jazz over the last 20 years, often resulting from a fusion with different type of music
Regarding rap, while like you I am not a big fan of US ghetto rap, I have been surprised by the quality and diversity of some of European rap, with often much more work on lyrics (MC solar, grand corps malade= poetry) or fusion between rap and other musics like reggae (massilia sound system), latin music (some of articolo 31 CDs) or jazz (Julien Loureau: more a jazz player but with drum n'bass and rap influence on several CDs)
PS: remember you promised me to post one of these days a list of your favorite CDs with really good recording
Henri, My system is not posted as I am still waiting for it to be delivered... When I moved to Asia 3 years ago, I left in the garage of my parents in France the system I bought 10-15 years ago: - Infinity IRS Epsilon speakers - Sunfire amplifier for bass - Gryphon Antileon for mid-tweeter - Wadia 20 + Wadia 25 source (used also as a pre-)
Now, I am building up a new system. I have ordered: - Evolution acoustics MM3 (supposed to be delivered in 2-3 months, I will be the first in Asia). I hesitated a lot with buying a pair of Magico Mini (and decided for the MM3 after hearing to Mike's system) - APL NWO2.5T CD player (to be used also as pre-amplifier) - Dartzeel amplifier (bought it from Mike) - Evolution acoustics speaker cable - APL digital cable - my old Kimber KCAG interconnect (until I have time to listen to other interconnect) - AC power cable still not decided (will probably be Jena Labs one or Jtinn's new power cord) - Slim Devices transporter (feeding the NWO2.5T) - 3 Critical mass devices platforms (2 grand master, one reference) - plenty of bass traps (still to be decided between Real traps and ASC) - no conditioner
In the meantime, I am listening to music on my home theater or, when I am in my Taipei studio, on a mini system with a squeezebox, a pair of Usher loudspeakers and 2 Vincent monoblocs...
Regarding the (few) french music I hear (like Cabrel, for most of them you need to understand the lyrics to enjoy it fully): - Grand corps Malade - M - Alain Bashung - Sinsemilia - Carla Bruni - Mc Solar - Benabar - Tete - Serge Gainsbourg However I listen mostly to jazz and classical music. JF (= Jean-Frederic)
PS: you assembled also an impressive system! I see that you have a pair of Jena: on which components are you using them? Which power cable are you using for the other components? (buying 5 Jena is hard to swallow...)
Thanks for the recommendations of music. Sorry to give you headache... personally I like to try to understand what I buy... as this business is full of marketing bullsh**... And I would love to find more post where I learn something on the way my system is working.
PS: As a French guy, I hate Sardou... and agree with you that Une ombre a l'autre is the best CD from Cabrel. cheers
Mike, sorry for giving you headache... I am trying to keep it simple. There is unfortunately a lot of marketing in this business, when most of the time it comes back to basic physic rules.
what you say is correct. I would add that a filter always bounces back the hash. That why it should be combined with something (typically a capacitive or inductive power cable) that will transform this hash in heat... Your Jena provide a "brick wall" as they have an integrated filter. The box on the cable prevents noise from the network to go in, but also the hash from the equipment to go back to the grid (a filter always works two ways). Same principle as for the main AC filter.So basically, if for example your Icepower amplifier generates a lot of HF noise, this noise is trapped between the amplifier and the box of the Jena. That why the cable itself needs to have also absorbing capabilities, otherwise all noise will accumulate on the equipment side!
If the Jena are high quality filters, the transformer shouldn't bring a lot as the Jena filters already noise from the grid. When you try to put the transformer into the system, you should play at the same time with different type of power cables (and even with a different cable from the main breaker to your outlets...). A cable and a filter work always in combination: filter= "brick wall", cable= noise absorption (noise is transformed into heat)
PS: I would add that the power supply of your rockport needs also to be isolated from your analog equipment (it must contain a motor which generates noise...)
Mike, thanks for your answer. It is strange, I cannot find the Oyaide R1 on their website, and they write that the WPC-Z can be used only with the SWO serie. Watch here: http://www.oyaide.com/e_audio/audio_products_files/wpc-xxx.htm I checked also the japanese website, same products, no R1. It seems that they haven't updated yet their website (did a search on the net and seems that the R1 is very recent). Will have to call them to ask price in Japan
Mike, Some more thoughts on the use of a transformer / network power filter 1) Regarding your question on the number of phases: if you see two wires coming on the main breaker, you are single phase. If you see 3 wires (2 phases and one ground), you are bi-phase. The formulas for apparent power calculation change depending on the number of phases You should check with your electrician, it would be safer (but you have plenty of margin anyway, even if the available power with mono phase will be lower than my calculation for 3 phases ). If dimensioned properly, there is no risk of limitation of dynamic (as the internal resistance of the power network, i.e. the 50Hz side of the filter is too small). Nevertheless, regarding your question if there is a sweet spot in term of power, actually there is another criteria to take into account: the filtering capability can be reduced when a network filter is driven at the limit of its current capacity: in fact, you can then have a saturation of the ferrite used in the filter. So you will not lose in dynamic, but in filtering. As a consequence, I suggest you keep a safety margin. If you consume max 6kVA, take a 7.5kVA
2) The way the filter works in the transformer is not to eliminate the HF parasite, but to filter it out. That means HF parasites from the network are sent back to the network but also HF coming from your audio equipment are also sent back to the audio equipment Without network filter, the audio equipments see the network as a very low impedance circuit. Therefore the parasites generated by your equipment (e.g., by digital circuits, HF-generators or power supplies) are sent back towards the main power supply, and eliminated passing through the low-resistance power network (parasite see the upstream network like a short circuit, as the network resistance is around 0.1 Ohm). With a power network filter, the HF parasites (typically from 500Hz to 30 000Hz) generated by the equipment see upstream the high impedance of the filter, and they will therefore be stored and accumulated downstream of the filter. These explanations have a few consequences: - if you clean up your system from all RF parasites, it will sounds sweeter, less harsh. A lot of people say then that it sounds less dynamic because they were compensating the too harsh sound characteristic of their system with cable chosen to smoothen the sound (e.g., with less extension in the highs). Now that they eliminate the HF parasite, the system gets over-compensated and appears not enough dynamic! They should change their set of cable - If the parasites generated by the equipments are higher than the parasites generated by the network, the use of a power filter may degrade sound quality - the use of AC power filters with tube amplifiers is even more problematic. Typically the high-voltage power supply of tubes amps generate much more HF parasite than for transistor amps. You dont want to keep these parasites in your system - It may be recommended to use different AC circuits for digital and analog equipments. That what I would certainly do (as digital equipment generate much more HF than analog (except for tubes amp). Check what is the case of your Rockport motor: probably to be put with digital. - The power cable needs to be carefully chosen when you use a power filter. A power cable doesnt have a sound by itself (not the same as component or speaker cable, where for example the skin effect can have a big impact): When people say that power cables sound different, these difference come from the presence or not of HF parasites (btw, in some cases people would prefer a signal with distortion as it is perceived as with an higher SPL by the brain ). Typically, one should chose power cables with a very low resistance (to avoid difference of potential for different equipments connected on the same network). It should also have limited bandwidth when you use a AC main filter, i.e. it should have absorbing capabilities for HF frequencies. You dont want to have HF being stored in your system, they should be filtered out by the cables. This is achieved by using capacitive or inductive cable, for example with ferrite to generate losses through demagnetization and therefore to transform HF parasite in heat. In your case, I would have such a absorbing cable from the main breaker to the room: you would have enough length to eliminate in heat parasites generated by your equipments - I dont know what will happen when using a main filter with your Jena power cable: I dont know how they work, but I remember you told me they have an integrated filter. Does it mean that parasites are trapped between equipment and the box on the Jena (I hope the cable has "absorbing" characteristics, to transform these parasite in heat rather than accumulating them ), and that therefore they will never go back up to the main filter? It looks like an overkill, two filters in a row (if the Jena are really good, you shouldnt see an improvement) but you may say that the power cables isolate equipments from parasites of other equipments, and the main filter provide an additional filter for parasites coming from main network? Interesting PS: I give you another idea of further improvement: have you played with position of your rack to position it in a place with low pressure level and therefore limit the airborne vibrations? The quest will never stop
Mike, I m just checking the price in Japan for the Oyaide (they are done here, so for once it should be cheaper in Tokyo!). The WPC-Z costs Y13440, i.e. USD110
The SWO-XXX costs Y6216, i.e. USD50
Can you confirm it is the same as what you bought?
Mike, you say you have a bi-phase and in a previous email triphase 220V. the most common are 3 phase and single-phase power supply. I assume here that you have a tri-phase 220V (the main breaker has 3 phases connected + one earth connection). In this case, you get 127V when measuring power between one phase and the neutral and 220V between 2 phases (and therefore you power your audio equipment with 127V, not 220V as you select one phase and one neutral)
When you write you have a 70A circuit, that means that if the power consumption >70A, the circuit breaker (or the fuse) will put itself in default (will burn). The rule is therefore that the specs of the line (determined by Ampere rating of protection and diameter of cable used) needs to be always higher than the max power consumption of your equipment. In your case, assuming the transformer is connected using 3 phases (I don't see it on the doc), the maximum apparent power consumption at the exit on your network is S= 3xUxI= 1.73xVligne x I=26kVA. So you should typically have a transformer<20kVA. This formula will change depending how you connect your transformer (star connection vs triangle connection), so you should ask your electrician to get a real estimate (more reliable than mine...). But most probably if you take a 10-15kV transformer it would be no problem. I just don't believe it will bring you anything more (or less) than a smaller transformer. Only potential problem would be the filtering, and perhaps (??) the fact that it is more difficult to get high quality filtering for bigger power(??). Personally I would install a 7.5kVA.
Fsarc, I fear that I am not qualified enough to be able to judge filter quality based on a photo(I am a management consultant, not an electrician)
One remark: if you ask your electrician to measure the power consumed by the MM3 on loud music, you will always get an average value, which I doubt will be above 1000W for the full system (typically intensity measurements are done with amperometric clamp, which give an average value on a certain time window). During transients, the power consumed is much higher (in particular with the dynamic headroom of a good turntable), so I would always dimension the transformer rating as larger than the max theoretical power of the system.
Mike, I am wondering if you will hear the same kind of additional benefit as Fsarc with a transformer: your power supply is directly from the grid, you don't share it with a bunch of neighbors like all of us who live in big cities, so there shouldn't be too many parasite on it (most of it should be already filtrated with your Jena). I am curious to hear the results! Last question for you guys, how big is the impact of the Jena (or other expensive power cables) when used for the bass module of the MM3? Before spending >$3000, I want to make sure it is really worth it...
Mike, seems like Frank already answered your questions on the phone. Let me just add a few comments I would for sure put the transformer in the barn, not in the garage. The 145 feet of cable from the garage are by definition like a big antenna. They will absorb ambient RF. So if you want to reduce noise you need to install the transformer the closest to the devices connected to it. Installations is really straightforward, the key is the attention to the details (good contact..) and for this a electrician doesn't always help
I don't see what an Halcyonic could bring to the transformer. As current is going through the coils of the transformer, it generates radial forces that make the coil vibrate. That's why you hear a hum... So by definition the transformer itself is vibrating. Your problem is here is not about vibration, but about quality of conduction: what you need in particular to take care of is the quality of the contacts at the exit of the transformer. The installation should be really straightforward.
Btw, my hypothesis on why you hear such a difference with the Oyaide is also that 95% of it is coming from quality of contact, not from elimination of vibration (a carbon plate is nice... from a marketing and aesthetic point of view). On any standard plugs, you have a poor contact at the microscopic level, generating very small electrical arcs and therefore noise. On the other side, elimination of vibration is much more important when you have electronic circuit / low power applications.
Regarding your question on the required power of the transformer, let me try to explain how to dimension it (I am not an electrician...). The problem is that the manufacturer doesn't give the rating of the transformer both in VA (used by electricians to dimension breakers and wire diameter) and Watt (for matching of equipment). For a pure resistance like a light bulb, one VA=1W. For a small size UPS, typically 1VA=0.6 to 0.7W (this coefficient is called the power factor of the equipment). Assuming this value (to be on the safe side, but you should ask the manufacturer), a 7.5kVA transformer corresponds to 4.5kW power supply. Now how would you use these 4.5kW? Maximum consumption of one Dartzeel is 900W. MM3's Icepower is 1000W. All sources consume quite nothing, so the real problem is amps. So your current system probably consumes in peak power something like 2100W. With a 7.5kVA system, you can basically supply 2 times your system, so more than enough (if your next amp is not going to be a big true pure class A). Now, of course you can always find situations in which it is not going to be enough: if you decide that you want to have a home theater with all 8 channels amplified by pure class A amplifiers (such as Gryphon Antileon), you would probably need 40kVA... (...) hope it helps!
Fsarc, $776 is really cheap! As you say, worth trying. My only concern is the noise: they indicate 50dB max at 3 feet. 50dB is a lot, much more than a hum! I would still hear it even if I put it in the next room... Is it really so loud from your experience? Can it also be used with 50Hz? they indicate 60Hz in the documentation, but if it is just a coil-based transformer, I don't see why it wouldn't work. JF
Mike, Yes, I forgot to say that the versatility of setting of the MM3 is also one of the key reason why I preferred them. I was amazed to hear how much difference your change of 2.5dB on the tweeter can generate...
aargh... I cannot imagine that the MM3 even sounds better with the Oyade... you need to stop trying new things or I will need to find a new job to finance this hobby...
I agree that the Dart combination with MM3 is magical. Wslam says the same about the Dart with the Mini (and he tried a lot of amps before deciding for the Dart): looks like this amp works very well with dynamic / transparent to the source speakers. These speakers are magnifying lenses: your hear all the defects... and end up throwing away 30% of your recordings...
When I listened to the mini, they did sound for me a little bit analytical with the Spectral. Not with the ARC Ref 210 but I was losing a little bit on the Spectral dynamic. Seems like the Dart is the best of two worlds.
When I listened to your MM3, I didn't feel like it was worth tweaking further the settings: what I heard was very natural and convincing already!
Regarding conditioners: which one did you try already? how much is the power-suppress 100 transformer? how different is it from a conditioner (in term of how it works)? I also really wonder if you don't lose on dynamic...
Zdeng, Regarding my listening impressions in Mike room: I can only fully share his comments: full range, transparency, emotion on voices... (sorry, English is not my native language... I am lacking vocabulary to express the emotion you feel listening to them) First, I want to emphasize again that the Magico Mini are GREAT speaker. If Alon Wolf wouldn't have decided to change distributor in Taiwan, my order wouldn't have been canceled and I would be the happy owner of a pair of Mini today. Since I listened to the Mini in a different room, it is difficult for me to make an objective comparison with MM3. I don't know how much from the good impression I got with the MM3 is coming from Mike's room and from the quality of the other components he is using. One thing is sure: I would be happy with any of these speakers, so the choice between both of them was tough.
Even if I find both the Mini and the MM3 at the same level of performance, I just chose the MM3 for a few reasons: - I am now moving from Taiwan to Japan, from a small room (15'x17') to a larger room (18'x26'). In my previous room, the Mini was the ideal speaker, I would never have bought a pair of MM3 - If I would have bought the mini, I would have added 2 torus subwoofers. The integration of the MM3 woofer is probably less problematic than with 2 torus. I was concerned about spending months finding the right position, etc - the MM3 probably have an edge on big orchestral work (Mahler symphonies... are even better on MM3), as with 2 mid-range and 15" woofers drivers are less stressed - With the Mini, I was still hesitating on the perfect match in term of amp: I listened to them both with ARC Ref 210 and Spectral amps, liked it but I wouldn't have bought any of them. The Dartzeel is amazing, but would probably be not powerful enough with the Mini in my new room. Wslam is using the Dart with Mini in a smaller room, and he loves it! The MM3 (93dB sensitivity, impedance never dipping below 5 Ohm) are a perfect match for the Dart... so I bought both of them! - the ribbon tweeter of the MM3 is sweeter than the Mini. Very similar to the Magico model 6 sound. - at $38k, the MM3 are a steal: the finition is fantastic (same level as the Magico), and it cost me less than a pair of mini with 2 torus! - as with the Mini, the bass of the MM3 is sealed: you would love it! In Mike's room, bass goes very deep but you don't hear a boomy bass as with Maxx2 for example (people say that the Maxx2 bass is great, personally I was very disappointed the two times I listened to them: too prominent and not clean!) On the other side, the Mini probably image better and are even a little bit more transparent/analytical than the MM3. I also loved the concept of having a smallish speaker that sounds like a mega-speaker! But they have a similar sound signature: If you like Kharma or Magico sound, you would probably like the MM3.
Both are so great speakers that if I would have to wait 6 months to get my MM3 and only 2 months for the Mini, I would go for the Mini... that tells how amazing it is that a small 2 ways like the mini can compete with a huge speaker like the MM3. I am 100% convinced that I took the right decision? No... I would have to listen to both speakers in the same room with same equipment to be 100% sure I bought the best one. But I am sure that any of them will satisfy me for the next 10 years... Who knows... perhaps I am going to end up buying a pair of Mini for my 2nd home...
Fsarc, I see you are using the MGE/Topaz Power-Supress 100 transformer: can you tell more about it? In which configuration do you use it? What is the contribution of an isolation transformer from your experience?
PS: I made today my deposit from my pair of MM3... after having listened to it at Mike's home
Mike, regarding the Halcyonics, have you found any information on how well they absorb vibration at frequencies >50Hz? All of these active tables have been developed for applications where the biggest concern is low frequency vibration (mostly from the building structure) whereas in our case the air-borne vibration generated by the loudspeakers are probably a larger problem. It is a very nice thing to be able to absorb vibration at 1Hz (vs. typically 5Hz for most conventional passive designs), but I would like to make sure it is also not at the expense of the absorption in higher frequencies: given how the Halcyonics work, I fear there is a physical limit on at what speed it can compensate for higher frequency vibrations. On the opposite, most passive platforms absorb very well frequencies >20Hz, but have problem of one resonance at a very low frequency, and they don't go as low as the Halcyonics.
One thing which puzzled me also in the positive feedback review, is that the author ended up preferring critical mass system isolation platform under his CD player and the Halcyonics under the turntable. At less that 1/3 of the cost of the Halcyonics, are the critical mass systems platforms something you have considered, and tested in the past?
Henrykh, Personally I listened to the Dart only a few years ago, not on the Mini. Was great! Wslam just bought last week one Dart for his mini (you can contact him on TAS forum, or on his personal site: http://photos.lam.ws/gallery/2424286). He listened to a lot of amp before falling in love with the Dart: ARC ref210, Spectral 250, Krell evolution, Ayre MXR... so the match seems quite nice
If I remember well, his room is something like 13'x30'and he says that the Dart has enough power to drive the mini (he is mainly listening to orchestral classical music). I have to say I am surprised, given the fact that the real sensitivity of the mini is 84dB. Personally I would rather consider to buy a Karan 450 (haven't listened to it yet...let's see) to replace my Gryphon Antileon: unfortunately it is in 220V and I am now moving to Japan where they use 100V power supply so cannot use the Antileon w/o redoing the power supply...
Mike, I fully understand your reaction. It is unfortunately too bad that personal attacks from a few idiots can have more weight than 99% of people who respect you and read with pleasure your system evolution.
Can only tell you that I am one of the immense majority of Audiogon readers who respect you for your quest of perfection, the quality of your judgment and everything we learnt reading your posts. However, what makes you really different in my eyes is the humility and humanity of your posts, not your room or your system. You are not the type of guy who needs to brag on his latest Ferrari or custom bike. You just want to share your passion and you treat the same way the guy with a $2000 or $200 000 system. Even under attack, you remain impressively polite and respectful. Respect!
As one Chinese proverb says, men should be "square inside, round outside", i.e. firm on what one stands for, one's belief and value, but respectful/flexible/avoiding attacks on one's interaction with others...
I don't know you in person, but hope to have one day the honor to meet you on one of the hifi shows.
Loxodrome, you wrote: "Your room is the perfect example of boys with their toys and the ONE CHAIR affair" You may be right but one could also write about you: " your 360 Modena Challenge Stradale is the perfect example of boy's with their toy's and the TWO SEAT affair" (btw, what the point of speaking about a Ferrari in the description of your system? (even if I enjoyed the story...))
What is wrong with that? Each of us has the right to spend his money where he wants. It is a personal decision that I wouldn't allow myself to comment. It always amazes me how people get more aggressive writing on forums. Would you launch such a direct attack in a face-to-face meeting with a stranger?
Last, one point which puzzles me is the following: is your attack on Mike's room a way to get free advertising for your listening room design company and its different approach in room design?
PS: Personally I find both Mike's and your rooms / systems very impressive, even if you followed very different paths. I would live happily with any of them, congrats to both of you. I am sure both of you enjoy a lot what you are listening PS2: Mike, pls keep on answering the questions of visitors on this site (including mine ha ha ha...)
Mike, First, congratulations for your great system, and thanks for the time you spent documenting your quest of perfection: very instructive for all of us. would love to also build a dedicated room... but unfortunately I am moving in a different country every 2-3 years... Some context to my questions: on my side, I am buying a completely new system. I first was interested by the VR-9, which unfortunately cannot be listened to in HK/Taiwan. However, I listened extensively to both the VR5 and VR11SE in HK, in a very nice dealer room. Was not fully convinced to be frank. Very dynamic, detailed sound but I had a problem with the bass which was too boomy on the ported VR5SE (probably a setup/room problem) and I didnt feel 100% connected with the music. On the same day, I listened to the Magico Mini at the same place (by accident, never heard about Magico before), and completely felt in love with it (will not speak about the 120k Magico 6 which is in a category of its own.. .but too heavy and expensive for me). It sounded like live music, and was imaging and had the energy of a big speaker. I am now planning to buy a pair of Mini + 2 Torus subwoofer to reinforce the <40Hz that the Mini cannot deliver. Before sending my Mini order, I believe I need to listen to the MM3: the price is amazing, I am really impressed by the construction of the cabinet, the quality of the drivers used and the fact that it is a modular concept (easier to move in a new home when you can cut your monster speaker in 3 ). Moreover, given that I love the sound of the Dartzeel and of EMM products I tend to think I may love the MM3 if it is of the same family. Do you know where it can be listened to in the US? (I emailed to Bluelightaudio a few days ago, but they are not very reactive ). I will be in SF, LA and Orlando end of March and I am ready to take a flight of less than 2-3hrs to any place where it can be listened to in good conditions. One thing which surprises me is to read the comment of J Valin on the MM3 in the Feb TAS: Although capable of considerable delicacy, tonal sweetness, and lifelike imaging, the MM3s were either underdriven by the $18k 100Wpc Dartzeel NHB-108 amps Jonathan was using or inherently polite because they were sorely stressed by the plucked strings, brass fanfares, and big bass drum thwacks of the Copland Third Symphony. On less demanding material, howeverlike Joni Mitchells All I Want from the great DCC LP test pressing of Bluethey were rather lovely on voice and dulcimer. => Valin was not very convinced by what he heard at RMAF apparently which worries/surprises me as most of the time I share his taste on speakers. However I have the impression that the few other people that listened to the MM3 at RMAF had a completely different experience! Is it just that the MM3 is for people with different taste? Like Valin, I like Kharma, MBL, love Magico. But was not 100% convinced by VS: how would you describe the sound of the MM3 compared to your old VS9 or Kharma for example? Thanks for your help
Mike, First, congratulations for your great system, and thanks for the time you spent documenting your quest of perfection: very instructive for all of us. would love to also build a dedicated room... but unfortunately I am moving in a different country every 2-3 years... Some context to my questions: on my side, I am buying a completely new system. I first was interested by the VR-9, which unfortunately cannot be listened to in HK/Taiwan. However, I listened extensively to both the VR5 and VR11SE in HK, in a very nice dealer room. Was not fully convinced to be frank. Very dynamic, detailed sound but I had a problem with the bass which was too boomy on the ported VR5SE (probably a setup/room problem) and I didnt feel 100% connected with the music. On the same day, I listened to the Magico Mini at the same place (by accident, never heard about Magico before), and completely felt in love with it (will not speak about the 120k Magico 6 which is in a category of its own.. .but too heavy and expensive for me). It sounded like live music, and was imaging and had the energy of a big speaker. I am now planning to buy a pair of Mini + 2 Torus subwoofer to reinforce the <40Hz that the Mini cannot deliver. Before sending my Mini order, I believe I need to listen to the MM3: the price is amazing, I am really impressed by the construction of the cabinet, the quality of the drivers used and the fact that it is a modular concept (easier to move in a new home when you can cut your monster speaker in 3 ). Moreover, given that I love the sound of the Dartzeel and of EMM products I tend to think I may love the MM3 if it is of the same family. Do you know where it can be listened to in the US? (I emailed to Bluelightaudio a few days ago, but they are not very reactive ). I will be in SF, LA and Orlando end of March and I am ready to take a flight of less than 2-3hrs to any place where it can be listened to in good conditions. One thing which surprises me is to read the comment of J Valin on the MM3 in the Feb TAS: Although capable of considerable delicacy, tonal sweetness, and lifelike imaging, the MM3s were either underdriven by the $18k 100Wpc Dartzeel NHB-108 amps Jonathan was using or inherently polite because they were sorely stressed by the plucked strings, brass fanfares, and big bass drum thwacks of the Copland Third Symphony. On less demanding material, howeverlike Joni Mitchells All I Want from the great DCC LP test pressing of Bluethey were rather lovely on voice and dulcimer. => Valin was not very convinced by what he heard at RMAF apparently which worries/surprises me as most of the time I share his taste on speakers. However I have the impression that the few other people that listened to the MM3 at RMAF had a completely different experience! Is it just that the MM3 is for people with different taste? Like Valin, I like Kharma, MBL, love Magico. But was not 100% convinced by VS: how would you describe the sound of the MM3 compared to your old VS9 or Kharma for example? Thanks for your help
