Mike- I have three of the Oyaide combos and indeed they are quite special as you have described. Now you just need to try a really good isolation transformer to really lower the noise floor.

I don't know about you Mike, but I'm finding the MM3s are remarkable in revealing the slightest changes made in my system. There's no hiding from "bad" decisions......

fsarc April 02, 2007 06:01

further Oyaide thoughts; after more consideration it seems clear that the degree of performance change is likely due to the fact there is an additive factor at work. except for the battery powered dart pre; all my gear is affected equally. both ICE digital bass amps in the MM3's are plugged in, as well as the dart amp, both EMM Labs boxes and the tt. so depending on the source; 4 for analog and 5 for digital; there is an accumulative degree of affect.

i've been listening to high energy classical for the last hour. big scale orchestral stuff. the combination of ease and dynamic energy is addicting. the more i listen the more i hear how the bass has extended and tightened; become real and alive.

it's really silly how plug connections on power cords can be such a big deal.

i would like to caution that however real my experience might be it could be unique to the context of my system and is no proof of equal benefit without listening for yourself.

YMMV,

now back to Mahler.....

mikelavigne April 02, 2007 04:23

i have been struggling today with my reaction to some newly installed products. my reaction is quite over-the-top......it's one of those "i gotta re-listen to all my reference music" kinda situations. i'm pretty excited because of the degree of improvement is coming from an unexpected source. my current focus is on power conditioning (i'm only using the in-line conditioners in the Jena power cables) and active isolation (see the last few posts above for details).

a couple of weeks ago my friend Joe (who has started his own 'audio tweak' business) brought over some 'hot shot' Oyaide duplex A/C outlets and two piece outlet frames and covers to replace my Jena Labs cryo'd outlets in my room. the Jena's had been installed a few years back with my dedicated lines and #10 guage Romex wire. i had been very happy with the Jena's and was not looking to change. at that time we only had time to try one frame and cover......and we could not hear any difference. Joe agreed to come back over and install the whole thing when he got enough in stock. this morning he installed five Oyaide R1 Beryllium duplex outlets ($125 retail ea), and five Oyaide milled aluminum bases and five carbon fibre plate covers ($199 retail ea). $324 retail X 5 = $1620 worth of duplex outlets. seems pretty crazy even for me.

the duplex outlets are labled 20A 125V. the body is made of PBT with glass filler. they feature polished beryllium copper, paladium on platinum plating contacts, heavy duty triple wipe contacts, and 24K Gold-plated brass band. none of that info means jack to me. what is different is that to get my Jena Labs plugs into these babies you gotta push hard and there is a very solid snap when it locks in. unlike anything i have seen......i wish the damn IEC connections on the back of all our electronics could be made to work like that.

then there is the Aluminum base plates; which attach to the in-wall box. once the base is attached; the duplex outlet is connected to the electrical lines; the duplex outlet is then attached to the base plate (very solidly) and then the carbon fibre cover is attached over the duplex outlet. all in all, very solid and really beautiful looking. excessive audio jewelry at it's finest.

but these things ROCK!!!

these expensive outlets have the best price/performance ratio in my system. from the first note; every aspect of the sound was improved. lower noise floor, better sense of space and more extended boudaries of the stage, better macro and micro-dynamics, better clarity and textural nuance, and more natural extended high frequencies. if i had to add up the differences; it would come down to the system sounding less reproduced and more like music.

i did not listen to the duplex outlets without the base plate and cover plate; so i cannot say what part is most significant. my guess is that the clamping power of the duplex outlet is most significant; followed by the elimination of resonance by the base plate-duplex outlet connection. if you look at how a normal dulplex outlet is attached to the wall box.....it's pretty flimsey and likely amplifies resonance. the drama here is simply how significant the wall attachment of power cords is in system performance......it's huge.....at least in my system.

after the last 6 hours of listening i'm still under the spell of these little jewels.....and i just had to share.....

i'll be listening late tonight......and that is no April Fool's joke.

mikelavigne April 02, 2007 03:27

Islandear; your April sounds like mine; i'll be here and there this month too.....hopefully afterwords we can connect. i agree that the proof is in the listening; music is art......not scientific theory.

mikelavigne April 02, 2007 01:59

Hi Bkonig-
There are no absolutes in audio, and "better" is very subjective. There is no rule that says a product that works well for me will work well for you. I'm sure that your experience is valid and in line with the specific set of issues that your system has-what ever they may be.
What products have you found that work in your system? Please share your positive experiences as well as the negative! ;)

Nate

chico_j April 01, 2007 15:20

Chico, Mike's response is, essentially, true. But, as we all know, theory and practicability don't always jive, so the only real solution is to experiment with as many devices as you can afford to assemble. However, having said that, keeping the chain as simple as possible generally provides the greatest efficacy. I've been back east for a week and yesterday I had the opportunity to hear Pete Bizlewicz' latest iteration of his Roller Blocks. This prototype, all of which has been awarded a patent - including the metal amalgamation - is more than a step up from his previous RBs. While this iteration is still a ball in cup design, it employs a puck design with very strong neodymium magnets that not only center the ball (a series 2 ball - very dense, verrry expensive) but aids in the drain of energy from the mounted component.

We replaced Roller Blocks with the new prototype under Peter's Wavac 833s, as well as his Defy 7, and the response was truly ear opening. No hype here. We had a NY dealer as well as the sales manager for a well-known international wire mfr in the room and everyone was able to identify the same effects: Wider dispersion, greater articulation, sweeter midrange and exceptional LF/HF reproduction. These babies won't be inexpensive - probably about...well, I won't go there, let's just say they're cheaper than Halcyonics...LOL

islandear April 01, 2007 12:57

Michael, yes, I'm still very interested in coming to visit. Right now I'm in NYC and will only be home for a day or two before heading back out, but I'll definitely contact you after April. In the meantime I'm looking forward to your inclusion of the VR-11s into your system!

Just continues to impress me (and, yeah, that green tinge around my edges is envy...LOL)

Blaine

islandear April 01, 2007 12:37

Chico j - I would just like to add that I tried the top of the line HRS platform with my turntable and pre-amp. Both were within the recommended weight range. I was very disappointed in the performance. Did not provide a very black background and sense of quiet and space between the notes (dynamic shading/contrasts which gives music life) and did not give you that sense of layered depth and transparency like better devices that I have tried.

bkonig April 01, 2007 02:46

In this discussion, especially considering Mike's top-shelf gear a couple questions arise in my mind- Is there a specific 'problem' frequency range, or is wide frequency dampening needed? Will one dampening method compromise the functioning of the other? Islandear, I believe that your suggestion of the ridgid/'DC' coupled shelf might be really important for getting the best performance out of the Halcyonics. A compliant platform on top of the halcyonics might not be beneficial at all.

What I had in mind was the halcyonics and then other dampening products applied to the chassis of the component to damp high frequency vibrations.
nate

chico_j April 01, 2007 00:50

Islandear; the Vibraplane is an active device; but as it uses air it is much 'softer' than the Halcyonics. adding additional passive isolation to the Halcyonics would likely not help. i do own a Svelt Shelf (along with a mag-lev shelf, Aurios, and numerous other passive isolation devices).

i will trot them all out when i get an active platform and we'll see how they work. i hope that your perspective is correct; that the limitations of active can be reduced by adding passive.

BTW, if you are still interested in visiting you would be most welcome. e-mail me and we can figure it out.

mikelavigne March 31, 2007 21:48

hi Nate; my opinion is that no isolation used under components effectively eliminates air-born mid to high frequency vibrations. the build design and construction of specific gear and actual acoustic barriers are the main ways to minimize higher frequency vibrations.

the darTZeel uses a sealed, milled aluminum case...and i expect that it is likely less affected by high frequency vibration that other open-box designs. however; putting the darTZeel into an acoustic enclosure or in another room would likely bring improvement (i am not interested in either of those options).

when i get an active isolation platform i will investigate different strategies to see what other of my 'tweak collection' might address higher frequency vibration.

after reading about the effect of combining passive with active i have my doubts as to the positive affect of using an HRS shelf with an active device. in essence, you would compromise the precision of the active device.

BTW, when it works for you please let me know and we will work out a good time for your visit.

mikelavigne March 31, 2007 21:41

I would agree that the Halcyonics platforms - per their documentation - as active devices made for scientific instruments sensitive to low frequency vibration, are expressly designed to compensate for low frequency vibration, and I would consider it doubtful that higher frequency damping is included in the engineering specification for these devices. If that is the case, I expect components would benefit from additional HF vibration damping as you suggest as, for example, Michael Fremer discovered was true with a Symposium platform on top of the low-frequency isolating Vibraplane. The optimum combination here would also most likely be to combine a true damping platform which can damp both the top plate of the Halcyonics devices as well as the component itself, and what comes to my mind as an excellent choice here would be a Symposium Ultra Platform or even a Svelte Shelf, since they are rigid (essentially "DC" coupled) and because of a symmetrical energy absorbing design, are able to damp both the support surface and the component at the same time (thereby effectively isolating the two without creating or incurring resonances).

islandear March 31, 2007 01:14

I suppose an interesting, and most definetly expensive, experiment would be to compare a combination of the better passive platforms/isolation devices with a Halcyonics platform. The product that first comes to mind are the dampening plates and platforms from HRS, but this is just because I have experience with them. Using their isolation products to damp the higher frequency resonances (which they are very good at) with the Halcyonics might be an effective 'system' for controling the frequency range-- much like how your room was designed.

Hope all is well Mike- school and work are killing me right now, but hopefully your invitation still stands to come out for a visit!

Nate in Seattle

chico_j March 30, 2007 05:07

Stereotaipei; another comment after refection.

regarding airborn vibrations; i would expcet that the Halcyonics does eliminate airborn vibration thru the platform itself. OTOH airborn vibration will always have 'some' theoretical effect on any gear in the room, whatever it sits on.

the distributor for industrial/scientific applications of the Halcyonics makes specific enclosures that are used with the Halcyonics to fully eliminate air born vibrations.

mikelavigne March 28, 2007 18:12

Stereotaipei, although i did read some of the supporting documentation on the Halcyonics, i cannot recall specific info on how it does on over 50hz vibrations. OTOH when Will Wright brought over the Halcyonics i was using the 'loaner' VR7SE's pulled out very wide; almost pointed straight at the rack with the EMM Labs CDSD transport. if ever a setup might be susceptable to air-born vibrations this one would be. your read my results. as you are many levels more technically capable than myself maybe you can look at the info and comment.

regarding the Critical Mass platform and Will's comments in the review i read it different. what he said was that with one Halcyonics unit in his system the overall highest performing combination was the Critical Mass under the Universal Player and the tt and the Halcyonics under the preamp. he did not say that he preferred the Critical Mass to the Halcyonics.

***********

"Much to my surprise, I ended up preferring this configuration. Although this is most probably not where I would have ended up without the Grand Master platforms to go under my source components, this configuration provided the best overall performance for the whole system. Whether spinning records or optical discs, the results were sublime. My preamp absolutely loved the Micro 40 and as a result, so did I. This was unexpected. In fact, I would have expected my previous configuration of Micro 40 under turntable and Grand Master under preamp to be superior."

*****************

in conversations with me Will said that the Critical Mass was fairly close to the Halcyonics in some ways, but not as good with any of his gear. My guess is that you could also say that the Grand Prix Audio racks are 'fairly close' to the Halcyonics too.

i would expect that the very best passive isolation will get close to the Halcyonics depending on the particular situation and the characterisitics of the gear being isolated. also, the higher the resolution of the system the greater the benefit of the Halcyonics. i know that what i heard from the Halcyonics was unique in my experience of digital playback. and the fact that it was all positive...more natural and more involving.

mikelavigne March 28, 2007 17:45

Mike,
regarding the Halcyonics, have you found any information on how well they absorb vibration at frequencies >50Hz? All of these active tables have been developed for applications where the biggest concern is low frequency vibration (mostly from the building structure) whereas in our case the air-borne vibration generated by the loudspeakers are probably a larger problem.
It is a very nice thing to be able to absorb vibration at 1Hz (vs. typically 5Hz for most conventional passive designs), but I would like to make sure it is also not at the expense of the absorption in higher frequencies: given how the Halcyonics work, I fear there is a physical limit on at what speed it can compensate for higher frequency vibrations.
On the opposite, most passive platforms absorb very well frequencies >20Hz, but have problem of one resonance at a very low frequency, and they don't go as low as the Halcyonics.

One thing which puzzled me also in the positive feedback review, is that the author ended up preferring critical mass system isolation platform under his CD player and the Halcyonics under the turntable. At less that 1/3 of the cost of the Halcyonics, are the critical mass systems platforms something you have considered, and tested in the past?

stereotaipei March 28, 2007 15:52

Mattnshilp - My MM2's should arrive very shortly. They are the finest speakers I ever experienced and I heard lots of super stuff. I do not believe the speakers will be at the show. You are welcome to come on over to my place to audition. My room is a similar size to yours (a drop bigger). I have a dedicated room in my basement. I'm located in PA 2 hours from Manhattan.

bkonig March 28, 2007 04:48

Thnaks Mike. That is a fair answer.

elberoth2 March 27, 2007 09:24

Elberoth, fair question.

i intend to buy at least one of the Halcyonics 'soon'. even though my Opus investment is 'over-the-top' for sure i'm trying to stay revenue neutral with my purchases. i bought my first set of Opus 7 years ago with a great trade-in on my Transparent Ref XL. the 2nd set purchased 2 years ago was quite painful however.

if you speak to my wife she will tell you with conviction that $7500 is most certainly a lot of money for us too.

with the VR11's looming i'm watching my sheckles until i figure that out. should be 'soon'. i'm i bit speaker 'poor' at the moment.

mikelavigne March 27, 2007 01:54

Mike,

If you liked the Halcyonics platform so much, why didn't you get one ?

I mean, 7500$ is a lot of money for most of us, but If you can afford TWO sets of TA Opus SC at 30k each, two speaker systems (EA and vSR 11) etc, then I'm guessing that money is not an issue.

I'm asking since I'm interested in getting Halcyonics platform for myself.

elberoth2 March 26, 2007 21:01

Thanks Mike,

I am intrigued by the MM2 and it may fit just right.

I'm not going to make any changes until I get what I have into my new room. My current listening room is on the third floor and it's only stairs to get up there. I had to hire a moving company to get my Friebirds, at 300+ pounds each, up there. And I think the MM2's would collapse my floor!

My new listening room will be in my basement, and it's a walkout. So getting them there would be WAY easier.

I just have to hunker down and wait for now. Who knows what will be out then. But it's good to know that you think the MM2 is pretty much as good as the MM3. I am hoping they will be at the H.E. show in NYC this May so I can hear them (and see them)...

Happy listening,

-Matt

mattnshilp March 26, 2007 18:27

Matt; regarding your speaker comments; i was using the MM2 only for the first two weeks (until the top woofer arrived). my experience was that while there is a benefit of the top woofer module mostly in terms of additional bass dynamic ease the MM3 and MM2 sound about the same. the magic of the Evolution Acoustics is with the seamlessness of driver integration along with the purity of the twin Accuton ceramic mid-ranges. having heard the other speakers you mention and liking them all (and having had the Midi Exquisite in my room for 5 months) i would prefer the MM2 to any of the others. the MM2 would also allow you to add the top woofer module at any time you like. you could even buy the MM3 and then sell the top module if it turned out it was too much in the new room.

my guess is that in some rooms (with less than 8 foot ceilings) the MM2 might be a better choice. your room is not really that small.....my previous room was 12' x 18' x 10' and i used the Kharma Exquisites.

the other nice thing about either the MM2 or MM3 is that it has a sealed bass cabinet with a powered low bass subwoofer. this allows a wider choice of mid-powered amps but still produces very deep bass. the lack of rear port allows more set-up choices. i have found that i prefer the bass performance of a sealed bass cabinet although it typically also means a low efficiency speaker......but not in the case of the Evolution Acoustics.

mikelavigne March 26, 2007 14:01

I've been in contact with them and they are also coming out with an upgraded stereo version, the 175 U.R.A.

I'll check the web site out today.

For those interested, he said they would be coming out with these two amps (mono and stereo hybrids), and a pre-amp and phono-stage to soon follow. No mention of a new OTL was made - I think it's a much tougher market for them and a matching pre-amp is a more marketable and viable product from their standpoint.

My listening room will be quite small when it's built (about 18'6" X 13'4" X 8'6" high). I am intrigued by the MM3's, but I think they will be WAY too big for my small listening room. There are only five speakers in my list for when my room is eventually done: My current reference Talon's, the Dali Megalines, maybe the MM2 (i think it will fit my small space better), the new Pipedreams (I have not heard the newest version, but I always loved the older ones), and the Kharma Midi Exquisits. I need to chose a speaker that will sound best in a smaller room. I know the Firebird's will sound awesome in that size room (I have spoken with the gentlemen at Rives about this already and they will obviously be doing my room). I would assume they are pretty familiar with the Firebird since they bought the damn company. I am a bit hesitant to get the MM2's since I have heard over and over that the top woofer really brings the speaker together and makes it just right. Without the top woofer (basically, the MM2) it is great, but not as cohesive, full and musical as the MM3. I just don't want to put a speaker in that small room that will overwhelm it.

I'm really happy with my current electronics and have not heard anything better in my system, yet. But everyone who loves the Tenors seams to REALLY love the Dart's. So I would assume I will eventually try them out as well. I have seen many people say they found perfection in their Tenors only to replace them with Dart's and never look back. But the Vac/Tenor combo with the Talon's seams to be just right (in my crappy current room at least).

Oh, and the gent's at Tenor Audio DID say they will offer a trade-in program for owners of the 150/300 series so get them into the 175/350 series. But I have not received pricing yet. I think they are establishing a solid dealer network before announcing that.

mattnshilp March 25, 2007 19:17

Matt; i have been hearing about the return of Tenor too and had been checking the website almost daily. now today they have something new; a "350M Ultimate Reference Amplifier' available by custom order only. it looks essentially the same as the 300 Mono but with a thicker and more dimentional front wood panel....quite beautiful.

the 300 Mono and 75w OTL are still right at the top of my amp list. i do have interest in both learning about what the changes are and hearing the new Tenor for myself. i have no doubt that Michel and Stephane (and whichever of the other original Tenor guys) have taken their already wonderful products to a new level. personally; i am very happy to see this finally happen......both for the people and the products.

i'm sure your Tenor/Talon combo must be wonderful. i can remember the Talon Firebird with the OTL Tenors at CES in 2002.....even though the Firebird was a prototype it did many great things. the 150 should be about perfect with your speakers.

i admit to be curious how 350 watts of Tenor would sound with the Evolution Acoustics MM3's.....my 300's were gone by the time the MM3's arrived.

mikelavigne March 25, 2007 17:13

Have you heard anything about the new Tenor Audio gear coming out shortly? New stereo and mono hybrid amps as well as a pre-amp and phono-stage to follow. Maybe your beloved Dart gear may be dethroned by the very brand it replaced!!!! :-)

Considering the impact a positive review from you can be, I would give them a call and see if they would ship you a pre-production unit to audition in your uber-system/uber-room. I know I'd love to hear your impressions.

I currently am running a Tenor Audio 150-Hps, so I am intrigued by the company coming back from the grave, bigger and better (hopefully). As long as they keep their products from melting or blowing up, then I think they will do well this time... I'm kicking around upgrading to their newer stereo amp when it comes out, but I'd like to hear it first since I'm SO happy with my current Tenor amp. And I tried a TON of amps before settling in on this one and the Vac Rennesance Signature Mark II pre-amp it's mated to. Sounds amazing with my Talon Firebird Diamonds!!! But I can't wait to get the whole system into a Rives room (still a few years away, sigh!).

-Matt

mattnshilp March 25, 2007 03:23