Videoht,
where are you based? I am living between Taipei and Tokyo and flying every week to HK/Shenzhen... I am building my new system in Tokyo (have only a small flat in Taipei)
Regarding APL, from what I know they have an agreement with Esoteric to get access to their players. Given that the company is still very much a "one designer" operation, I can understand they go with their current model (watch what happened to Wadia 10 years ago when they tried to grow to fast and do everything...). Moreover, I don't believe (I may be wrong) that Teac still sells its VRDS-Neo unit separately. If you want to get it, only way is to buy an Esoteric...
Problem is that the VRDS-Neo is in a completely different category in term of mechanical design...
See this link: http://www.aplhifi.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=560
It is coming from APL forum so for people who don't trust their objectivity, click on the picture links and judge by yourselves... (watch the comparison with Philips...)
If you check their website, you will see that APL is trying to develop their own range, starting with DAC.

I have one NWO2.5T on order. Hesitated a lot with a EMM. Finally decided for APL more based on curiosity. Sure that both are great.

stereotaipei May 14, 2007 08:02

Stereotaipei; thanks for the explaination.....i was not familiar with the details of the 2.5 NWO which was why i mentioned that. the 2.5 has certainly had lots of positive comments written about it. at some point i'd enjoy hearing one in my room to compare it to my EMM Labs SE.

Videoht; thanks for the detailed explaination regarding the G-0Rb clock......if i get an opportunity to try it i will. a question; when using the G-0Rb clock, do you still use the ST Optical cable for the data output of the raw DSD from the CDSD to the DAC6e?

again; many thanks for pushing the envelope.

mikelavigne May 14, 2007 07:00

below is a response to a question posed to me over on AVS i thought i'd share here (i'm basically lazy).

****************

Jermmd and Luigi,

first, sorry Luigi for missing your question earlier. i don't check here on AVS as often as i should......so much video and HT stuff to sort thru.

the MM2's are very close to the MM3's.......in fact on a high % of music it is more a matter of slighly different than better or worse. there is mostly a slight improvement in bass dynamic ease and a slight increase in warmth......which means a slightly different crossover point for balance. you can run at a higher bass gain with two subs since the crossover is set slightly lower. when you go from MM2 to the MM3 you will get a speaker with slightly greater dynamic grip and sense of solidity.

Jermmd, i have now had the MM3's since Christmas......over 4 months. they are now fully broken in. there are aspects of speaker performance where i have heard a few speakers do this or that specific thing as well or slighly better. but overall; the MM3's do everything at the very highest level of performance. and as a total package; i have not heard anything like it.

there may be another speaker with mid-range clarity and detail in the ballpark of the MM3, but none that combine this with smooth seamless extended highs. the combination of mids and highs is unmatched in my experience.

the mid-bass/lower mid transition is the typically the weak point of large speakers; i have not heard that critical area for vocals done better than the MM3's. although the MM3's are very dynamic in the upper bass and lower mids i have heard speakers with more punch in this area. those speakers however are not as coherent as the MM3.

deep bass is tunable to tastes. it goes very deep and is very articulate. i know of speakers that can do greater macrodynamics in the deep bass......but not by much. again; the MM3's are quite dynamic.......and do acoustic bass as well as any speaker i have heard.

the MM3's have a very natural, sweet tonal flavor; assuming you supply it with the correct amplification and sources. they are as detailed as any speaker but still sweet. the combination of naturalness and detail is unique.

since they are an easy load you have a wide choice of amps. for such a large speaker they actually have a modest footprint and since they are sealed boxes are flexible as far as where you put them.

and once you dial them in they completely disappear.......if the recording allows it.

i have not seen a better built speaker, and beautiful too.

if the MM3's were $150k the pair......they would be no more overpriced than any other $150k speaker.

how do i feel? they are magnificent!

the best thing they do is make great music......all those 'bests' and 'as good as'.......mean nothing if they don't deliver that great sense of having real music there in your room.

there are many excellent speakers out there.....but none at any price i would rather have.

***********

mikelavigne May 14, 2007 06:47

Thanks for your comment, Mikel!

I'm very agree with you that modify is not for everyone since it is very elaborate and paintaking job to mod. That's why I just recommend the other people to test only the Esoteric Master clock G-0Rb as I think it is very worth testing, if you don't like it. Just take out the BNC connector and that's all. Normal practise for modifying, I will have the standard CDSD and DAC6e on the side for comparison to check whether the mod unit trade-off sth. with STD unit or not? That's why I didn't recommend the other people to follow my mod. It is very difficult to get on the right track.

About the connector of Emmlabs is proprietary that's right for ST-Glass, but for BNC 44.1KHz and 48 KHz clock in/out it is an industry standard one, so you can use the master clock from DCS, Apogee, Alesis, and many others to test with CDSD and DCC2. Please don't forget that Emmlabs support a lot of Professional Studio for mastering. Most digital professional equipments will have clock in/out terminal as a standard connector to make sure that all equipment will synchonize on the same clock to eliminate the jitter. Mikel, please check with Ed Meitner for this clock link. The reason I try it because I check the precision of this Esoteric G-0Rb is at 0.00005 ppm and very impressive to be better than other clock precision from other manufactures which normally at 1 ppm or 0.1ppm.

About the APL unit, I agree with you. I would not call that modify a unit, instead APL built the other cd player since taking out DAC board, change the DAC chip, switch to tube buffer output is not modify any more. For me, I will change only some parts that improve the sound quality but I will not change the D to A board, or the Opamp like APL. I am very admire Ed Meitner for his genius design that's why I should to improve the sound quality from his equipment.

About the Turntable Vs SACD sound quality, please try to use Esoteric G-0Rb to hook into your CDSD SE. If you have confuse in connecting that, please inform me. I will describe it to you. I bet you will an idea of what I try to tell you. I am very eager to hear your response after using G-0Rb as I'm very admire your capability in testing the equipment.

Dear Stereoteipei, very nice to share some comments with you too. If I got the chance to Teipei, I will contact you since I live nearby Teipei. About APL, I quite don't like to modify like that. I think if APL do like that they should buy only the Esoteric VRDS-Neo and design their own unit like Wadia or DCS do. This is just my opinion :)

videoht May 14, 2007 06:14

just one comment on the APL NWO2.5T: we cannot exactly describe it as a mod. The only part which is kept is the power supply and the VRDS mechanics. Everything else (including the D/A wandler) is replaced. So the sound has nothing to do with an Esoteric player. APL decided to take an Esoteric player as a basis because of the quality of the mechanics, nothing else.

stereotaipei May 14, 2007 00:43

Videoht;

very serious system you have there. no doubt very refined and high resolution with both vinyl and digital. obviously i know the EMM gear.....i also owned the Aesthetix Io for 3 years and then had the Io Signature with 2 power supplies for 2 months. if you feel the mods your friend made to the EMM gear and the use of the G-0Rb clock made big performance differences my hat is off to you for pushing the envelope. modding expensive gear is a risk and cost money.

i must admit to having a somewhat negative viewpoint toward modified digital gear. i am certainly open to the possibility of modded digital surpassing stock gear. with the exception (to a certain degree) of the APL stuff (which while better than the stock gear it's based on is still not my cup of tea----no....i've not heard the 2.5 NWO)......mods have sounded worse or diiferent to my ears.

i will try to elaborate a little......but before i do i must point out just how clueless i am regarding things technical......so keep that in mind as you read my comments. i just want to add that little disclaimer.

my viewpoint is that the design and production engineering process for stock gear is many times more rigurous than any modder can attain. parts choices are not casual for OEM. also; the original designer has already done the work to choose the correct parts. just throwing more expensive bits at gear is a hit and miss proposition. also; adding tubed output stages to digital gear changes the sound but so far to my ears does not make it better (my personal opinion).

i don't have the knowledge to really comment specifially about the effect of the Esoteric clock on the EMM gear. i do know that the EMM digital interface is propriatary. there is no doubt that the VRDS-Neo drive is amazing and would likely improve the CDSD's performance. however; my opinion is that placing the CDSD on top of a Halcyonic Active Isolation platform would yeild more preformance benefit than the VRDS-Neo.

the 'SE' upgrade to the DAC6e is very significant. personally; the original manufacturer's 'tweaks' are more likely to be purely positive.....whereas a modder's efforts are more likely to be a trade-off.

i was going to jump on your

Now i get all the good thing of turntable plus more clarity, soundstage, bandwidth, and dynamic of CD and SACD.

then you backed off it in your 2nd post.

with top vinyl the digital (even SE EMM Labs) is not really close however good it might be. i do agree that as my system improves the difference between SACD and Redbook gets larger.....even as Redbook improves immensely. the problem is that the vinyl gets better too (after all; there is more info there to uncover).

i want to be clear that i am not in any way questioning the results you are speaking about. it just runs counter to my experience.

OTOH as digital goes forward with DSD/SACD and Redbook maybe the next step will be combining special technologies from the leading digital players......the combined effects resulting in greater performance. that appears to be what you are doing.

thank you very much for sharing your efforts here.

best regards,

mikelavigne May 13, 2007 17:02

Dear Henry, very nice to discuss with you. I hope my experience can help the other audiophiles to get some new idea. Frankly, I didn't recommend the other audiophiles to modify without proper electronic knowledge background and good electronic technician. I'm very lucky that I have my friend who are very keen in fixing Hi-End equipment for more than 15 years. He also can design some circuit for me too. :)

Please understand that I am not a recognized Meitner Modifier. I'm just do it on my own risk, it is just for my hobby to find out the finest sound quality. Now, I'm waiting for my friend new CDSD SE and DAC6e SE to compare to my mod CDSD and mod DAC6e. My friend also very eager to know the result also as he consult with about modifying new CDSD SE and DAC6e SE as in my unit. By that time, I should have a very fun job to test this unit.

For other audiophiles, I suggest that trying only G-0Rb (sorry I qoute the wrong model previously "G-0Rd")hook up to standard CDSD or if you are lucky to have CDSD and DCC2, you can hook it up seperately from G-0Rb to CDSD and DCC2 which should have a better result than my connecting layout. For clock cable, I suggest the other to try with good digital 75 Ohm BNC cable and connector. But I do recommend RG-11 SDI digital video cable with quad shield, as I test many RG-6 video cable, but I found out RG-11 have a better sound quality.

Please note that you must try a master clock after your system is already optimum set up and calibrate, and almost go up to the upper limit of your system. Since using a G-0Rb in your system, it didn't increase the bass, mid, or treble so much, just very little. But it just expanding the sound stage, increasing the air around each instrument, recreating ambience in each recording, reducing the digital grain, improve focus on foreground and background. If your system is not high resolution enough, and wrong speaker placement and calibration, you can't get the magic of this master clock. Did you believe that Esoteric G-0Rb take about one week before the clock start to continuos stable? And once you use it, don't turn off this master clock as they use a Rubidium clock generator which need to heat at a certain temperature. I check with the Rubidium clock generator manufacturer, did you believe that the cost of Rubidium clock generator alone is at almost USD 2,000 WOW!

I think this Esoteric G-0Rb is not launched in USA yet, I am very lucky in getting this unit first in Southeast Asia. Actually, I borrow it from my friend who order it to use with Esoteric P-03 and D-03. I am just curious how it will improve my Emmlabs.

About the turntable Vs SACD sound quality, please read it carefully that I have just stated that now I just got the good thing of turntable plus more dynamic and clarity of CD and SACD. I never stated that it is better turntable 100%.

From my own opinion, I think either Turntable or SACD, if you can handle and calibrate it properly and optimumly, the result should be the sound quality should be closed to each other inwhich it should get close to Master Tape or Disc as much as possible. Now, the tonal balance of both turntable and SACD in my system is very close to each other. For example, an Opus3 SACD and Vinyl Record is a very good test. You will be very surprise, if you hear both format in my system. So, I need to have both SACD and Phono in my system because not all master have an equal quality, if you talk about the old record, SACD is inferior to Turntable. But for a new SACD with DSD mastering, Turntable is inferior to SACD. I hope you will get my idea.

About the modifying on CDSD and DAC6e, I replace the capacitor on the main board by using Tantalum cap for digital routing, and using Black Gate N series for analog supply and analog path. I didn't touch on SMD cap and resistor. The unit is working wonderfully and reliably, and I never turn it off. I make it run 24 Hrs.

For my dream project, I would like to install the Emmlabs ST-Glass output into Esoteric P-01 or P-03, and hook it to mod DAC6e SE or DCC2 SE. I don't know it can be done or not at this moment, but I have discussed this possibility with my friend. As I found out that the bad thing for Emmlabs CDSD is in the Philips SACD laser pickup base, if Emmlabs use Esoteric VRDS-Neo mechanic, it will improve the sound quality beyond imagination. DCS now already started to use Esoteric VRDS-Neo in their top model transport.

For interconnect cable,
Vyger Indian Signature to Aesthetix IO Sig - Virtual Dynamic(VD) Genesis
Aesthetix IO Sig to Viola Spirito - VD Revelation
Emmlabs DAC6e to Viola Spirito - VD Revelation
Viola Spirito to Custom made poweramp - VD Genesis

For all Speaker cable, VD Revelation

Power cord, is mixed between Aural Symphonic, Furutech, Virtual Dynamic, PS Audio, and Natural Link.

Now, I am consider to change poweramp, I think about Karan Acoustic, Viola, and Boulder. Do you have any idea about these poweramp?

I hope my answer can help clarify your question. :)

videoht May 13, 2007 12:20

This is the first time I read anyone stating a digital source sounds better than analog, albeit with an unconfirmed modification that (doubles?) the cost of the Meitner combo.

Videoht, are you a recognized Meitner modifier, or more a hobbyist? And can you explain some more detail how you use Tantalum and its extreme high heat resistance and conductivity properties in the upgrade, I presume in the resistors? I ask because I used to buy large quantaties (tons) of Ta for turbine applications.

Can you also share a bit more about your system setup, cable used on the clock, room setup. Where are you located etc.

Regards
Henry

mtkhl567 May 13, 2007 04:58

Mike, I have followed up your system quite a long time ago, but never response to you. I would like to exchange some experience with you. About a year ago, I have started the project Emmlabs CDSD and DAC6e modify. I took out the old switching supply of both CDSD and DAC6e, and replace them by using linear transformer power supply from Plitron. Moreover, I have replaced a lot of Capacitors by using tantalum and Black Gate N series. The result is very worth doing it, it lifted out all harsh and stress, have more dynamic without grain. I have very satisfy with this modification. Until recently, I have just received the new Esoteric G-0Rd, newest clock from Esoteric. Then I hook up the clock out of Esoteric G-0Rd into Emmlabs CDSD clock input using BNC 75Ohm cable, then set the DAC6e to received the ST-Glass optic input to be external. By doing this all clock both CDSD and DAC6e will lock to Esoteric G-0Rd, the result is much more than I imagine. It recreate and expand the space into both depth and width 30% larger, and all digital trait is gone, just rich harmonic and very analog sound is coming in. And the most important thing is that the emotion is very stunning, with more impact dynamic, and correct scale of each recording is recreated. Very very recommend for trying it, I can't it out from my system now. Once I have gone back to using internal clock of CDSD and DAC6e, I am very question that why previously I think it was a very good sound. Please note that the full performance will show with at least 4 days of continuous running of this Esoteric G-0Rd. Don't turn this weapon off at all condition. Now I get all the good thing of turntable plus more clarity, soundstage, bandwidth, and dynamic of CD and SACD. Ooh, I forgot to tell you, once I have used the G-0Rd, the difference of redbook CD and SACD is showed much difference than before. I think that it was like that because the G-0Rd master clock generate a much more precise clock timing of 0.00005 ppm Vs 3 ppm clock using in CDSD and DAC6e. I also recommend this clock the other audiophile who use DCS and Esoteric equipment.

Here is my system reference:

Quintessence Acoustics Speaker - Stealth SV with 15"Subwoofer
Viola Audio labs - Spirito Preamp
Aesthetix -IO Signature Phono pre
Vyger Indian Signature Turntable with Vacuum Holddown and Carbon fiber Vision tonearm option.
Shook Mook Signature Cartridge
Emmlabs CDSD custom modify - SACD Transport
Emmlbas DAC6e custom modify - DAC
Esoteric G-0Rd - Master clock generator
Custom made Mono block power amplifier 500 watts/ch -4 units
Virtual Dynamic - Revelation and Genesis interconnect and speaker cable
My room size is 5 meters by 7.5 meters.

If you have any question, please feel free to ask me.

videoht May 12, 2007 00:52

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loxodrome May 11, 2007 01:14

Dusty, Lox, and....

i stand corrected. i have seen the Eams Chair in person but have never sat in it. my impression was that the upper back rest was in fact a head rest. clearly i am wrong about that.

as jtinn mentioned; it is too low for the tweeter height of most speakers but there is not a cupping effect that i had stated. as i said orginally; it is elegant looking.

my apologies for being sloppy in my observations.

mikelavigne May 10, 2007 15:32

05-10-07: Joey_v
Unless you're a munchkin, the Eames Chair does not even reach your ears.
Joey_v (Threads | Answers)

Dear Joey,

Try to explain this to your friend Mike who's friends are of completely different proportions!
No wonder, apparently he feeds them ENORMOUS portions of PIZZA!!

I agree, only midgets will be affected by the headrest of the Eames Chair but, even midgets can have ENORMOUS hands so be aware!

Sincerely, Loxotoxic

loxodrome May 10, 2007 12:50

Dear Henry,

All seems to depend on the size of your hands. BIG room and SMALL hands = a no go. BIG ROOM and BIG SPEAKERS means GIGANTIC hands and this = an absolute impossibility. Your hands would preposterous! I will consider your suggestions and work on a marketing strategy.

Thank you for you positive suggestions. Photos will be forwarded to you personal mail address.

Keep up the fun in life and be so kind to forward suggestions why the Honda F1 team is a no go this season! Is it Honda or are it the dealers?

loxodrome May 10, 2007 12:27

That's too funny!!! Lox, I think you've just invented about the only unmarketed tweak out there. But before you put any silver, gold or platinum versions on the market may I make a suggestion for those with a more limited budget? Just hold your hands behind your ears when listening, same effect, and may also increase audiophile listening pleasure (depending on personal taste)...all at no cost! It does bypass the papercutting fun though...

Looking forward to that picture of you and your family with your "additors", or mine, on your system page.

:-)
Henry

mtkhl567 May 10, 2007 04:51

Ik haft nu so gelaggen dat ik op de grond kruipen...

Mike, your room is always fabilous... siriusly.

DV

dewald_visser May 09, 2007 07:40

The Eames Chair:

The Perfect Chair!!!!!! (but it will not massage your back)

To overcome the blocking effect of the headrest, cut yourself some BIG paper ear-supplements and attach them to your born-with protruding elements.
You’ll be amazed about the additional micro-infested low-level detail these ADDITORS will provide. No specific instructions for these ADDITORS exist but make sure they are proportional to your speakers and room. BIG speakers means BIG ADDITORS, small room
SMALL ADDITORS and family room: MULTIPLE ADDITORS for all members.

Lots of cutting fun and do experiment

loxodrome May 09, 2007 03:03

I actually just bought an Eames lounge chair (Herman Miller knockoff by Selig) last week, and I've enjoyed it IMMENSELY. Any enjoyment that is taken away by the headrest possibly blocking sound is more than compensated by the comfort and aesthetics of the chair!

heyitsmedusty May 08, 2007 12:13

With all due respect I sat in the perfect chair at Circuit City the other day. It is an auto massager. I don't know the name of it, but I would consider marrying that chair. I hope I can get a second date. Then I can give you more information.

gregadd May 04, 2007 04:03

Joey_v: While the Eames chair is beautiful (I own one but would never use it in the audio room), it is not good as an audio listening chair. Although the headrest might seem to impede the sound, the truth is that if you are taller than 5'9" your head would be way above it and it would be more of a neck rest. The other major factor is you would probably be sitting too low.

Good luck!

jtinn May 03, 2007 22:00

Dusty, yes....i have two $600 Barcelona 'knockoffs'. they work well in the room. are reasonably comfortable, and are sonically neutral as they don't have much mass.

Joey, there are many different 'perfect chairs'. mine is from the Relax-the-Back store from 1999. it uses visco-elastic foam so the heat from your body forms the foam to your body for no 'hot spots'. there are chairs that are cushier in the short term; but any other chair puts pressure on your spine and after a few hours becomes uncomfortable and causes a stiff back. i can and have sat in my chair for 12 straight hours.

the Eams chair has a headrest that cups the sound; about as poor a listening chair as you can get. OTOH the Eams chair is elegant and quite comfortable.

mikelavigne May 03, 2007 14:47

Mike,

I sat in the Perfect Chair PC6, I think the model after yours, and I was very surprised that I didnt find it too comfortable, or atleast as comfortable as they advertise it to be. The leather was a little stiff also.

I really wanted to spring for the Perfect Chair and have it as my end-all of listening chairs so to say that I'm bummed is an understatement.

Now, the Barcelona chair... is it comfy?

Also, do you have experience with the Eames chair?

joey_v May 03, 2007 10:45

Kent, both the Nova Be and 801D are excellent speakers; i likely would prefer the Nova as the more refined speaker to my ears between those 2. more coherent and smoother in the mids and highs.....more musical. but i've heard the 801D's sound very good.

after 4 months i am completely happy with the Evolution Acoustics MM3's. they are 'silly good'. now that they are completely broken in i hear a continuousness and coherence that mimics live music....beyond anything i have heard.....they completely disappear. for a 73 inch tall, 575 pound speaker to be so 'not there' still grabs me. i've had other speakers that are very good in this area but none like this.

other speakers with bass and high frequency extention typically call attention to themselves in some way....not the MM3's. the mid-tweeter transition and the high frequency extention are a wonder. i've had the diamond tweeter of the Kharma Midi Exquisite and the 3 tweeters of the VR9's in my room for extended time periods......the MM3's are simply on another level. i hear mid-range detail i have never before heard.

while i loved the bass slam and dynamic grip of the VR9's the overall bass performance of the MM3's is more articulate and 'of a piece' than that or any other speaker i have heard. it's like a single driver speaker but from 10hz to 75khz. the bass performance can be 'tuned to taste' if you want it to stand out more. my taste is that the bass should serve the music and not be highlighted. OTOH i do enjoy great bass. the MM3's have great bass!

the micro-dynamics and transient snap of the MM3's are as 'correct' to how real live music sounds as any speaker i have heard. there is no 'enhanced' or 'cookie-cutter' crispness that some speaker do that is distracting.....yet the 'boogie-factor' is amazing. i have yet to hear a speaker show differences in recordings like the MM3 and yet retain naturalness.

initially i felt a single 100 watt per channel darTZeel stereo amp was only adaquate in my large room......i no longer feel that way. since the drivers have broken in.....which particularly allowed the bass is attain that 'liveness' and 'ease' which had initially caused me to desire more power......i am completely satisfied with the single dart. a big difference turned out to be those Oyaide duplex outlets.....which really turned up the dynamics in the system.

i now feel that i am getting the musicality and listenability of the very best, most refined, low SET based type system combined with the best deep bass, high frequency extention, clarity, detail, and overall ease of a high powered, full range system.

the MM3's are halographic, they are alive, they speak to me on an emotional level and yet do all the checklist stuff with ease. they are beautiful and built like a tank.....and are likely the best dollar value out there in an expensive speaker.

i'm certainly happy and highly recommend them.

mikelavigne May 03, 2007 06:51

Is that a Barcelona chair next to your lounge chair? Those are such great chairs. Classy, comfortable, and approachable.

heyitsmedusty May 03, 2007 06:42

Hi again Mike,

How do you like the Evolution Acoustics speakers? I've never heard them before. They look very nice and could very well be a potential candidate for my future listening room as I am going for a truly full range system. At this point I am leaning between Focal-JM Lab Nova Utopia Be and B&W 801D. However, nothing is in stone and I won't make any decision without comparing different speakers in my future sound room.

kentb May 01, 2007 13:26

Afb284; i appreciate the nice comments.....and it is always my pleasure to host fellow music lovers.....of which there are many i have had the great pleasure in meeeting from Vancouver. i hope to see you again.

as much as it means to me to have people support me; i would prefer that we 'go on' from that episode and leave Lox alone. i want no conflict with him or anyone else.

mikelavigne April 27, 2007 06:30