OB, of course you are always welcome.....i would enjoy hearing your impressions of the current set-up as you were last here a month after i first moved in almost three years ago.

things are quite different now.

mikelavigne June 16, 2007 14:03

Marty and OB,

i cannot yet say for sure how the f113's will integrate with my MM3's in 2-channel. i don't have the same sort of crossver you have on the Pipedreams; i hope that the Low Pass filter on the Fathoms, combined with the High Pass filter on the MM3's will allow me to get them to perfectly blend. even if they blend they may not add anything as the bass performance of the MM3's is already stellar.

they are clear winners for the LFE (.1) channel of my SACD multi-channel. i am definitely planning on buying lots more SACD multi-channel.

Marty, your last visit here gave me some valauable feedback regarding my system balance. you would be welcome to visit any time you are in the area.

mikelavigne June 16, 2007 14:01

Hi Mike, always a pleasure reading your thread. On the topic of your new subs, I remember an online review by you of the VS VR9's and you ended that review by saying something to the effect that the soul of music is in the speakers base reproduction capability. And the VR9's had that in spades.

How, in your opinion, does the base of your current setup (MM3+subs) compare to that of the VR9's, and do you think it could even be better than the VR11's?

Henry

mtkhl567 June 15, 2007 15:20

Great job on the subs Mike. It does seem like they are the real deal. Like I said in my email, I have a Seaton Sound SubMersive1 and I love it for movies and MC music. I really have not used it for 2ch yet because my speakers now have outstanding bass on their own in my room. I also really appreciate the chance to talk to you own the phone. Your thoughts and insight were a very big help. Your ideas helped me to refocus on what my end goal is.
Thanks again
Mike

mikeduke June 15, 2007 12:42

Hi Mike,

You are too nice in your reply to Fendergibs but I guess that is a reflection on what a great guy you are and it avoids flame wars on your system thread.

I often laugh at these people who feel the need to measure everything or those who insist on double blind listening tests to confirm audible differences. I don't know about other audiogon members but I do not listen to music as a means of scientific analysis or to test my hearing acuity but rather as a way of connecting to the deeper meaning in a performance which makes the experience a more entertaining and/or enjoyable way to spend my free time. If a cable, resonator, rack or other tweak brings me closer to my goal then it is money very well spent. Audio is a subjective pursuit afterall and the system need only please its owner to be considered a success.

Fendergibs' logic could also be applied to the art world where the value and selling price mean different things to different people since beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder. Try measuring those differences.

The system is looking great Mike and I am sure it sounds even better. Keep us posted with the subwoofer and multichannel SACD progress.

Best,
Aaron

drajreynolds June 15, 2007 01:44

Fendergibs, thanks for the kind words on my gear and room.

regarding your cable comments; have you ever listened to the cables products in my system or done any cable listening comparisons? please tell us about your experience with cable listening which caused you to develope your opinions. if not; respectfully, your opinions on cables have no interest from me.

btw; as this is you first audiogon post i am curious what motivated you to start here on my thread......your style reminds me of a few cable trolls from other forums.

if you are looking for an environment to make a point about cable performance i would suggest starting your own thread.

i do appreciate your respectful tone. just because we don't see cable performance in the same light does not mean you are not welcome to post here. to be clear; you don't need my permission to post here.

best regards,

mikelavigne June 15, 2007 00:12

Fender,

We are all fools except you. We love wasting our money and never donate to charity.

David

dlanselm June 14, 2007 18:16

System look fansatic esp the Turntable set up, but remember the electrons dont care which cable they go via only we do ie placebo effect as there has been no doubble blinded study to confirm ANY of the befits your cables make except in your pocket book. Thus get regular well shielded cables for 200 to 300$ and give the other thousands to your local charity your system will sound the same, that is you will NOT be able to tell the diffence under blind conditions (thus elemitating bias ) all of the other compoments esp the room have proven physics behind them to justify their use. Enjoy

fendergibs June 14, 2007 17:25

LOL!

Awesome 2nd impressions Mike!

I never got the impression from you that the MM3 lacked bass output... is this the case now that you've gotten your ears spoiled by the JLs?

Joey

joey_v June 13, 2007 18:40

With you two guys going JL subs for your systems and both having killer systems I am anxious to hear both impressions as they get broken in.

I do plan on visiting Ugamotz this summer for a first hand listening experience

oneobgyn June 13, 2007 17:12

Mike,
Steve tipped me off that you bought some F113s. I ordered a pair of G213s 2 months ago to replace my Pipedream subs (always was the weakest part of the system) and I was told they would be delivered in June. Now I'm told they might arrive in December. Damn! Glad your impression of the JL audio subs is positive. Gotta get up there to hear the new speakers....
Marty

ugamotz June 13, 2007 16:57

2nd impressions are just as ridiculous.

'Sacred Feast', Gaudeamus.....a wonderful choral SACD is sublime. funny how wonderful, powerful, deep bass can affect the human voice.....and separate and make more profound each voice, yet make the ensamble sing more with one voice.....beautiful.

'Aja', Steely Dan.......'Hey Nineteen' just rocks.

'Ship Ahoy', the O'Jays......title track, a favorite in multi-channel of my friend Ted. it's now a fav of mine too. the bass track is amazing and transforms this music to something real. again; my room has no walls.....it just goes on......

damn, time for work.

mikelavigne June 13, 2007 13:29

Awesome Mike!

Just remember... first impressions are great, but sometimes, emotions get the best of us. Let the system run for a few days and then really get your thoughts together and let us know exactly what you think.

But, what I just read seems to point to a more positive note with regards to these dual JLs.

Enjoy!

Joey

joey_v June 13, 2007 08:25

i am trying to stay calm. i have written three different 'first sentences' to this post that are all quite over the top.

upon further reflection; i'll give myself some wiggle room.

the subs arrived late tonite. 2 JL Audio f113 Fathom subwoofers arrived at 8pm via fedex ground. the driver, who delivers here enough that we know each other, asked me what those 'beasts' are? subwoofers; actually quite small but very heavy (130 pounds each). he kindly wheeled them inside the door to my barn and placed them on my 2 waiting piano dollys.

i went back inside the house to watch the Mariners beat the Cubs in 13 innings.

new subs, the Mariners win their 5th in a row on the road, every one in their last at bat. so far a very good nite.

i went back out to the barn; wheeled the subs into the room; about 45 minutes later both subs were unpacked and in place; behind my speakers on each side of the room. i only have connected one sub so far; as i am waiting for some additional long balanced cables so i can hook up both in both LFE and in 2-channel mode.

i quickly read thru the manual.....and do the simplist of set-ups.....for multi-channel only for tonite.

XLR input connected, polarity set to 0 degrees, phase at 0, E.L.F. at '0', LP Freq at 75, LP filter at 'off', master volume at mid-point, level mode 'variable', A.R.O. in 'defeat' mode.

i plug it in. no sound checks or level checks.

i put on the SACD of the Who's 'Tommy' in multi-channel mode. go to track 10......the 'Underture'.

a moment prior to the music starting, the room expands to maybe 200 feet wide. then everything is bigger, bolder, and with this level of authority that i only recall being approached by the VR11's. this is with zero setup of any kind and only a single sub.

after 'Underture' i play 'Pinball Wizard' and 'See Me, Feel Me'. i am really stunned. no bloat, no loosness, nuanced, delicate, and with effortless impact and sense of space and air. everthing is alive.

i think to myself that my room really likes these subs.....but can i get them to work and be coherent in the 2-channel?

next i grab the Newman, 'Music for Organ, Brass and Timpani' SACD, multi-channel. track 1 is a Strauss piece, track 2 is some Handel.

Holy Shit!

then track 12, Mussorgsky's 'the Great Gate' from 'Pictures'.

OK, now i really lose it. and i simply cannot put this musical experience into words. the whole room is alive with this big church with 2 organs going 'warp 9' at each end.....i'm there. there are numerous musical events happening all around the room fully realized.

i've heard big organs in churches; that is what they sound like...the whole deal. spooky.

now i'm listening to the MTT of Mahler 3rd. the effects are overall more subtle......but the magic is there in spades. and i'm in San Francisco.

the only bad thing is that i have a Sales Meeting in the morning at 7:30am.

mikelavigne June 13, 2007 07:23

Aaron,

after the Murano's have more time on them i will try them on the MM3's. it will not be a level playing field as i only have the 8 meter 'zeel' BNC cables that i use with the dart pre and amp......so i will need to use a BNC->RCA converter plug......which will be a compromise. but it will give me a good idea of it's true potential.

it will not surprise me if they sound quite competent on the MM3's.

mikelavigne June 03, 2007 15:30

Hi Mike,

Glad you are enjoying your multi-channel experience. It would be interesting to try your Murano P-1000s (plus) monoblocks on the Evolution Acoustics MMthree speakers. Sounds ridiculous given the price difference compared to the DartZeel amp (not to mention lashing up the Opus MM speaker cables which should be compatible) but it might surprise you since it seems to be doing well on the Dukes at the moment.

Best Regards,
Aaron

drajreynolds June 03, 2007 02:59

Henry, sorry for the delay in my response, busy week.

no problem with HT talk here; it's funny that i keep upgrading my HT and then it pretty much just 'sits there'. i go over to the AVS forum and spend a few months getting involved with projectors and such......get up to speed on the current SOTA......make my purchase.....and that is it for a few years. even though the picture is now pretty damn wonderful.....i've likely watched 3 or 4 movies in the last 90 days. seems i just want to listen to music.

regarding an analog 6 channel pre; besides the Switchman i'm only familiar with the no longer made Sony unit which was quite cheap and actually not bad sounding......and Placette will make a passive 6-channel pre custom order but it ain't cheap ($9k+). i would expect that there are quite good sounding 6-channel analog pass-thrus in some processors although i have yet to hear one personally.

i have been listening to multi-channel for the last week or so. it is quite interesting and wonderful to some degree.

it turns out that the Marten Duke speakers seem to work perfectly as rear speakers; based on my personal viewpoint on the ideal multi-channel performance. they have a seemingly identical tonal character as my MM3's. the Duke's high frequencies blend well, i don't percieve any distractions. the Duke's bass is fast and articulate; again matching the MM3's with much less deep bass of course. even though they are placed with their rear port just inches from my side-wall cd shelves; i get no bloat or thickness in the mid-bass.....so no PARC needed.

the Murano P-1000s (plus) monoblocks seem to do their job perfectly; at 1000 watts they don't even break a sweat doing rear channel duty on the Dukes. i don't hear anyhting that tells me they are $899 each. note that my desire is for the rear channels to be 'unnoticed'......provide ambient support for acosutical recordings without being distracting.....but also be able to step up and be first class on some quad recordings such as 'Tommy' or 'DSOTM'.

so far the amps and speakers are everything i could ask for. i have not listened to either in 2-channel so i have not really tested them critically; but for what i needed i'm very happy with my choices.

i am using an in-expensive borrowed XLR cable for the center channel from the DAC6 to the Switchman, whereas i am using XLR Valhalla for the left and right front chnanels; this is no doubt compromising ultimate 'phantom center' performance. i am looking for another set of XLR Valhalla to solve that issue.

i still have not bought the sunwoofer; which for some recordings is needed.

mikelavigne June 02, 2007 16:30

Hey Mike..probably should not make this into a home theatre thread so last comments on the subject (unless u prompt me!)

Agree on Parc in 2 channel: not needed but even more so given it would be inserted btwn the pre and pwr amps, the Dart 50ohm zeel connect goes out of the window: I say not!

I am still going thru an home theatre mutli channel set up, mainly for movies yes, but once in awhile want to have decent audio and experiment with multi channel audio as well...

As such one thing I have decided: the player will be TEAC Esoteric's DV 60: I prefer Meitner but it ain't DVD: the DV 60 is very good on all audio formats and upascales to 1080 P.

I thought about the EMM Labs switchman or other analogue multi channel per amps such as was it CJ that had one? But the thing is for multi channel set up bass mgmt is important....or at least for movies. So personally going to opt for pre.pro with bypass functionality (for all music)...

henryhk May 29, 2007 15:46

Greg,

i am very happy with what my ears hear and my eyes see.....and life is good.

Aaron,

in the first few months with the MM3's i was happy with the single dart but i did have a sense that more power would be preferrable for the MM3's in my room. as i learned the proper crossover settings and bass settings that sense was considerably reduced. as breakin completed i got more and more energy and grip.

then more recently with the installation of the Oyaide RS-1 duplex outlets the system took on a much better micro-dynamic life.

i no longer hanker for more power. if Herve builds higher power monoblocks i'll likely step up as i know head-room is always a good thing. but i would not sacrifice one bit of the refinement and beauty i now have for more power.

regarding the Caliburn/Cobra; if i have not listened to my Rockport for awhile i do get to thinking about it. when the cash flow result of the MM3 decision was upon me i was slightly tempted to pursue that direction.

then i listen to vinyl on the Rockport and find that i am totally happy in every way with what i have. maybe the Caiburn is better in some ways.....maybe not. it is really not important to even know. when i look at the complexity and set-up challenges of the Caliburn compared to the amazingly simple and likely 'forever' aspect of the build quality of the Rockport.....it doesn't make sense to change.

i know that for what i could sell the Rockport for and what a Caliburn has already been offered to me for.......this is not really a matter of money (not that it's not more--just not that much more).....i simply believe that long-term the Rockport is the right tt for me. and if i start thinking different i just have to play a few Lps and that is the end of that.

mikelavigne May 28, 2007 14:42

Mike, I think someone said ..."life is what happens to you when you are pursuing your dream..."
The speakers are beautiful.

gregadd May 28, 2007 03:04

Mike,

Sounds like you are very happy with the Evolution Acoustics MM3, single Dartzeel amp and single run of Transparent Opus MM speaker cables, congratulations! I do recall you saying that a pair of Dartzeel monoblocks may enter the equation should such a beast ever exist.

Are you contemplating the Continuum Audio Labs Caliburn/Cobra or Criterion/Copperhead analog front ends? I know that the Rockport performs at such a seriously high level (and looks beautiful) that it would be difficult to part with it.

Enjoy,

Aaron

drajreynolds May 28, 2007 02:45

below is an answer to a question put to me on the AVS forum i thought i should share here.

**************

Mike,

Are the VR11 still on order? Or are you satisfied with the MM3 enough to stop there?

Joey

hi Joey,

i have choosen the MM3's. my dealer will be selling the VR11's which were built for me.

no speaker does everything better than every other speaker; or even as well. no speaker is perfect for everyone.

i know there are aspects of the VR11 that i will always lust after to some degree. the combination of 4 woofers and 2 powered subwoofers in each speaker and still quite properly integrated allows for other-worldly bass dynamics. for a coherent speaker a totally unique level of macro-dynamics. and my room would have been perfect for them.

if the VR11's would have been delivered in 10 weeks as originally promised; instead of the 10 months they have taken.....they would be in my room now. no doubt i would have loved them.

OTOH i know my personal listening priorities are better served by the special musical qualities of the MM3's; their higher levels of coherence, detail and sweetness.......the smoother mid-tweeter and higher transparency. the VR11's are excellent at all these things too but not to the level of the MM3's.

i also spent a good deal less money on the MM3's, and was able to sell a set of Opus speaker cables and a dart amp......so a huge difference in out of pocket dollars. my wife is very happy.

finally;even though the VR9's and VR11's are well built and nice looking......the MM3's are really beautiful and elegant with their curves and rich layered wood cabinet......just a higher level of fit and finish.

i highly recommend the VR9SE and VR11SE. i cannot think of a weakness in either speaker.

it's funny how things work out sometimes.

as far as whether i will 'stop there'.......as i told OB, that is my intention.

however; forever is a long time........

******************

mikelavigne May 28, 2007 01:56

Henry, more on #3.

room correction; more needed for multi-channel? i assume you are referring to the adding of multi-channel to my 2 channel room.

since i've not yet started multi-channel listening in the 2-channel room my viewpoint is based on theory, not practice. the reality could be different.

first; the 2-channel room is highly diffusive; particularly in the rear of the room. HT's are typically a bit more absorbtive to reduce speaker interaction. you are generally looking for more direct sound from multi-channel and less reflective sound. my room was optimized for 2-channel with lots of diffusion to retain maximum energy.

i would call my multi-channel approach......'multi-channel lite'. partly due to my concern for an over-prominent rear channel that would be distractive, and partly for aesthetic and space concerns.....i am using small rear channel speakers with limited low frequency output. the walls near these speakers contain lots of diffusive elements. i expect that the rears will be 'happy' where i plan to put them even though to get the angle and distance i need, they will be very close to my rear side-wall. i do have a bass trap built into that rear corner as well as bass trapping in the ceiling above.

i have no interest in any DSP room correction in my 2-channel room. if i cannot attain a natural sound with it; i'll likely abandon the multi-channel in the 2-channel room. the PARC? not likely but possible if i get a muddy mid-bass from the rears.....but i would only consider it for the rears.

mikelavigne May 22, 2007 12:56

hi Henry, no doubt....great minds think alike.

but seriously......

1. i am using the EMM Labs Switchman III. this is a consumer version of a pro audio product. it is simply a 6 channel analogue preamp with gain settings for each input and a wired remote. very minimalist; no DSP whatsoever (nothing is digitized) and a bit industrial looking. it's actually a very good sounding preamp.....likely just below the very top level of ss analogue preamps. it is ideal for SACD or any multi-channel analogue source. Blue Ray and HD-DVD players (lossless HD sound) with 5.1 analogue outs would work perfect (assuming you have a small monitor for the interface.

there are a few HT processors which have 5.1 analogue pass-thru's that could do this but they are not typically in the same performance class as the Switchman. also; none of those offer an analogue 'phantom center'. (most can do a DSP phantom center but if you are going to trash the SACD with PCM then why bother).

in my HT room i use the Lexicon MC-12.....a very good digital processor for film. it has a 5.1 analogue pass-thru.......but it literally sucks as an analogue preamp. it's congested, grainy, and lacking any sort of refinement. analogue is an afterthought for the MC-12. i have no interest in listening to any analogue music in my HT room.

2. for 1080p i have 2 sources, the Sony BDP-S1 and the Toshiba HD-XA2. for 1080i sources i have Directv, Comcast, and the JVC HM-DH40000U D-VHS.

i have purchased a video processor, the Crystalio II, for video switching. i run HDMI cables into the Crystalio II and then run a digital audio cable from the processor to the Lexicon. the Crystalio II is a full feature 1080p processor and has an outstanding interface. it will do the upconversions from 1080i to 1080p as well as upconvert SD DVD and regular TV to 1080p. the Crystalio II then outputs 1080p into the JVC RS-1 front projector (an amazing projector). i also use the ISCO III lens for 2.35-1 constant height output onto my 115" x 49" 2.35 screen. the Crystalio II does the vertical stretching for the 2.35.

3. for the 7.1 in my HT room i currently do no DSP room correction other than some subwoofer bass tuning by ear. the room likely would sound better if i spent some time on it.......but 7.1 sound is not really 'truth' anyway; it's a damn foley stage. the picture is so big and beautiful that the sound is really secondary. i do intend to add some acoustic treatments; but i never seem to get around to it. whenever i watch a movie the soundtracks sound pretty good....maybe even great.

the room is 18.5' x 15' x 9'.

good enough? probably for video. i'll try to get around to posting some pictures one of these days.

mikelavigne May 22, 2007 05:21

OB, i went back and tried the RCA-XLR comparison (both are Valhalla) with and without the other plugged into the DAC6 SE.

the RCA still has a slight but clear edge. the only difference when both RCA and XLR are plugged into the DAC6 SE is an approx 3db drop in volume.....equal for both. the detail, imaging and stage height remain identical. even though it's only a gain issue i will still unplug the unused cable as there are likely subtle advantages to the higher gain that may not have revealed themselves in my quick comparison.

i have a guess as to why your effect was more dramatic. first; both of my sets of cables are connected to a powered up pre.....in your case your multi-channel pre was turned off.

Andreas told me that when I listen to dedicated 2 channel and there is no power going to the MC setup there is still a dielectric which potentially could cause my problem.

second, the image shift you mention was likely some sort of impedence imbalance. i have had the experience of a surprise image shift and lowering of soundstage. after checking everything i finally checked the impedence toggle on my dart amps. i had bumped one channel from 50 ohm to 75 ohm. i would have never guessed that a simple impedence imbalance could cause such a dramatic effect. what exactly caused your imbalance who knows (maybe the dialectic issue?).

again, thanks for the heads-up.

mikelavigne May 21, 2007 13:48