additional note on Zoethecus; since i can't edit my post i wanted to clarify my experience. i had Zoethecus racks (with Z-slabs) for 8 or 9 years; of which the first 7 years were on suspended wooden floors. there is no doubt that the Zoethecus was a quite good rack in that environment. i was constantly trying different tweaks over that time and many of them did improve things over the basic Zoethecus. but i was happy with them.

when i moved to my present room with a 6 inch concrete floor they did not work as well for whatever reason. maybe a tuning issue or simply a design characteristic.

the floor was a little better.

the Grand Prix made them sound broken.

mikelavigne March 01, 2007 10:50

Mike, no; i have used the dart on my Zoethecus rack and the floor....and both were still special....and to be honest the floor was slightly better. not to knock the Zoethecus but it needed additional 'tweaks' to sound good. if you use the SRA on your wall unit it will sound good; but when you get around to changing from the wall unit there will be a clear improvement.

borrow one from Barry amd try it in both places to satisfy yourself. it's a big commitment and worth the effort to be comfortable.

when you look at the way the darTZeel is put together you might think that isolation will not really help it as it is built like a tank. then when you hear the difference great isolation can provide you start to understand what really does what.

mikelavigne March 01, 2007 10:30

Henry, although i had music when my kids were young (Bang and Olufsen electronics and tt, Phase Tech speakers) i had nothing close to your set-up. my kids did enjoy the music and after their initial mid-80's attraction to 'hip-hop' mostly gravitated to my 60's and 70's pop and jazz tastes......which they still maintain today; although more involved with current pop than myself.

the dart gear is hard to beat....and i can really believe that they thrived with your Strads.

keep in mind that the MM3's have (i think) a lower list price than your Stradavari's.

mikelavigne March 01, 2007 07:56

Regarding my wall unit Mike, I am very interested and will more then likely get the dart amp. Do you think that I will seriously compromise its performance if I put it in the same place as have my amps now?
Thanks

mikeduke March 01, 2007 07:53

Cfcjb, no....i have 5 or 6 different versions of that Motorhead cut; but none are 'audiophile grade' so i can't play them in my room.

;^)

actually, i am not familiar with Motorhead; sorry. next time i'm at the 'record' store i'll try to find that.

was it recorded after 1980?.......i kinda missed most of those. or was it that i already forgot them? ??

OTOH i do get my 'swerve out' in my own way with some appropriate music from time to time. i will 'do one' right now in honor of your suggestion; thanks.

gee....i hope i don't 'hurt something'.

mikelavigne March 01, 2007 07:42

Thanks Mike.
I will see what happens. First I need to get my new sub installed next week. Then some time after that go up to Barry and have a talk with him. The one reason I am hesitant is that my room is on the second floor. Barry said that he could do it with out a problem, but still, it would be a major event I think. I think I will just get the sub and get my system 100% again, which it is not at this point, and see what happens from there.
Thanks again.
P.S
I am looking to broaden my listen range. If you have some artists/titles in the Blues\Jazz area could you email them to me? Plus I think I might try a little classical but I don't know where to start. Maybe some beginner titles?
Mike

mikeduke March 01, 2007 07:12

Lovely looking room, nice system but my question to you is of a software nature.
Have you got an audiophile copy of Motorhead's "No sleep till Hammersmith"?
I can just see you bellowing at your MM3s as you flail away in your seat ;-)

"You know I'm born to lose,
and gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby,
I don't wanna live for ever"

R,
J.

cfcjb February 28, 2007 23:24

Mike, i might suggest that if your interconnects are long enough; you experiment with your amps on the SRA platforms on the floor (with the power conditioners next to them sitting on the floor). just to see what you might hear.

just an idea for you to hear for yourself where you are going.

listening culture is personal. if the timing is not right to remove the wall unit and you are enjoying the music then don't worry about it. the music has to first fit into your life. i remember when i was in my family room with my first system. it took awhile before i wanted to make big changes since it was a shared space.

good luck and enjoy each step in your path.

mikelavigne February 28, 2007 18:35

Thanks Mike for your lengthy reply on "strategies" for a succesful audiophile hobby while preserving marital bliss. I guess I am lucky to have an understanding wife too, and I am really happy that my kids are starting to appreciate the system too although they don't understand the value of money (at 6,5 and 1) yet!

FYI, I did try the DartZeel power and pre-amp (thanks to Barry Konigsberg, great guy)with my Stradivaries in my home and the new Emmlabs onebox, and there is no doubt in my mind that it sounded much better than what I have now. It was very surprising to me how much better...mindboggling. And, I am also convinced that adding excellent vinyl gear would take my system go even higher. I guess that's part of a learning curve and better products out there over time.

Now, Barry also raves about the Evolution Acoustics speakers. My goodness, this hobby can get very, very expensive... :-)

Regards
Henry

mtkhl567 February 28, 2007 14:27

Thanks Mike. Your comments are very helpful. No. My amps are not on the floor. I have monster power conditioners. The SRA platforms sit on those and my amps sit on top of the platforms. It is just a big o'll book case style wooden wall unit that I have had for about 10 years. I really have no space to put my amps on the floor or I would do that. So basically this wall unit is limiting the potential that I may have lurking in my system? If so, then that is something I will have to take care of.
Thanks again

mikeduke February 28, 2007 08:07

there are other types of isolation particularly the 'ball in cup' types of shelves and such that are also effective.....anything that allows an element of 'float' can be effective when properly used. the limitation of those is that they are effective horizontally but not much vertically. the Grand Prix does both horizontal and vertical.

there are other shelving systems which take the isolation approach that i'm not personally familiar with that could be equally effective; i just can't personally comment on them. from my understanding SRA platforms do use isolation. i personally cannot compare SRA and GPA.

the shelves in your system pictures will store and release lots of energy (a bad thing for music). they don't even 'ground' effectively and the shelves themselves likely move up and down to the music which will muddy the image focus. isolation devices used on top of those shelves will have limited effectiveness.

i assume you have moved your amps down off those shelves and placed the SRA shelves on the floor and then your amps on the SRA. that is a good start. almost any basic audiophile rack will be an improvement over the furniture shelf you now have.

you describe your rack as a 'wall rack'. it appears to sit on the floor. actually; if the rack 'hung' from the wall it would be quite effective since walls (particularly structural walls) are much less a conduit for vibration than any floor. i just mention this for clarification.

for tt's wall racks can be very effective and are used commonly.

i hope my comments are helpful.

mikelavigne February 28, 2007 07:24

OK.
Thanks for the explanation. So in reality, isolation is the way to go. I guess at this point I am using grounding methods. Now for sure I am going to look into changing my wall unit. I don't know if you have, but you can look at my system and see what I am talking about and see what kind of wall unit I am using. The picture was taken before the SRA platforms were in place. They are under my amps now.
Thanks again.

mikeduke February 28, 2007 06:35

Mike;

there are essentially two schools of thought when it comes to proper rack/gear support technology.....'grounding' and 'isolation'.

i guess there is also a third which combines levels of mass grounding with levels of isolation (my Rockport tt).

anyway; grounding is where you use the stability of mass and weight to dampen vibrations, cones are used to drain off vibration, and heavy cases dampen vibration. grounding can be effective at 'reducing' vibration....but ultimately in my experience it mostly changes the nature of the vibration but is not fully musically satisfying. many times grounding may result in better bass response but also may make things sound harder or softer. more different than predictably better.

isolation uses various technologies to 'dis-connect' the gear from the influence of the ground or even air-born vibration as opposed to dampening thru grounding. this 'disconnection' seems to add 'life' and 'energy'to the music and in my experience lowers the noise floor.

i have used a few different types of isolation; Aurios, mag-lev shelfs, the Grand Prix Audio shelf system, the Halcyonics Active Isolation table, the active air suspension and air bearing for the platter of my Rockport.....all at various price points and levels of sophistication.

in my experience isolation 100% of the time makes the music better; the more capable the isolation the more the improvment.

grounding is a mixed bag which has unreliable musical benefits.

a concrete floor is always a good starting point for any audio room as it is more predictable than a wood floor. but like you say; when i take my amp off the floor and place it on a Grand Prix Audio stand with the correct foam pucks tuned to the weight and weight distribution of the amp...the performance of the music is clearly better. there is a flow and clarity that had been missing. there is more separation to insrtuments and the noise floor drops. muddy passages clear up and i am pulled much farther into the music.

grounding 'MAY' have positive effects but never like that.

mikelavigne February 27, 2007 17:01

Paul; yes; maybe it's my French (Jadis), or German (Burmester), or English (SME) 'parts' that are a bit 'looney'.

I agree it does hit a bit close to home.

mikelavigne February 27, 2007 16:29

"Tell him I am not crazy"....uhhmm, I don't really think there is any way to justify that assertion :-)

Mike, I am half Croatian myself, and when I see that you are too, I thought maybe there is a genetic reason! But none of my Cro relatives are nuts like this. So it must be the Scandinavian part. Hmmm, there are some good Swedish audio companies, like Marten. That must be it!

Anyway the video is funny, but does hit a little close to home. I had never seen it before. Thanks,

paul

paul99 February 27, 2007 14:26

No need to apologize. I like that little film. You should have an "international" meet. That might be cool.
P.S
I am slowly trying to work my way into convincing myself that I should get the Grand Prix audio rack. Barry made an interesting point. This is what he said
"Stability of anything is not an issue for sound. For example, my music room is in the basement with poured concrete floors. Solid as a rock. But if I place the amp on the floor compared to the Grand Prix amp stand, NIGHT and DAY difference!!!!"

I find it interesting that it could make a difference with Solid State gear. Iguess I need to think of the rack as an active part of the system.

mikeduke February 27, 2007 14:06

Mike; i am 25% Croation (my dad's mom), but that is the closest i can get.

i do apologize that i am a day late and a dollar short on this film as evidently it made the rounds last summer (i guess that was in my 'audiophile winter' phase).

oh well.

ironically; i am an 'Honorary member' of the Audiophile Club of Athens; you would have thought that i would be aware.

mikelavigne February 27, 2007 11:28

Mike, I saw that already.
The really funny part?
I am 100% Greek :)
So I guess I have a reason for my madness.
What excuses do the rest of you have.

mikeduke February 27, 2007 08:56

you gotta watch.....

this......

"i was a normal human being.....and then...."

perfect!

mikelavigne February 27, 2007 08:39

Larry, no, i have not heard the Strativari in my room or anywhere familiar; it was at a show. i've heard it a few times.

i think it was on mid-powered tubes of some sort.....i would be guessing exactly what.....but i liked it.

in any case i think of it as the Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum of speakers....which is high praise. it is has a warm tonal balance, not the last word in ultra-detail, yet still plenty of inner texture and a very full romantic bass.

kind of the opposite of my personal sonic ideal but so nicely executed that it was wonderful. you could listen all day. it did disappear nicely for such a wide speaker.

OTOH there was a slight bit of sameness that would be the 'issue' for me. i like to hear 'everything'.....and that is not what the Strad is about.

maybe the ideal speaker for a beautiful living room with a bit of brightness that cannot be dealt with.

it doesn't hurt that the Strad is an absolute beauty.....as are all the Sonus Faber's.

i completely understand how the Strad could be many a listener's ideal.

it's also possible that with the right amp and room the Strad could be a detail champ....like the dart amp and pre.....that might prove to be very interesting.

mikelavigne February 26, 2007 22:24

.
Mike nice advice for Henry and the rest of us.
.
Have you ever had the Stradaveri in your room and or heard them in a familiar set up ?
.
I would love to hear your comments on them.
.
Rgds,
Larry
.

cello February 26, 2007 19:21

hi Henry; thanks for the comments. as far as 'one of the best sounding' i think 'best' is an improper way to characterize system performance. some whose tastes are simlar to mine might like my sound; others may not care for it as much. interesting how different people will give me opposite feedback on my system balance according to their 'reference'. as long as we are having fun then it's all good.

what matters is i like the way my system performs.

none-the-less i do appreciate the thought.

spousal approval on 'extreme audio' is complicated....and as varied as the people involved. on a relative basis every system connected to a marriage/shared household involves issues which must be worked out. there are many (maybe hundreds) of examples of 'extreme audio' systems that are here on AudiogoN, or Audioasylum, or the AVS Forum....many with as much or more dollars invested as mine. so all these guys have had to go thru the process of 'negotiating' the 'rules' for this activity and investment with their mate.

in your case you have a very nice (and very expensive) system; with a beautiful room, and great gear. i really like your Stradivari speakers; and all your gear is top notch. assuming you are married; i would guess that you had to work it out for the initial investment.....like me or anyone else.

in my case; i started the hobby after my kids were grown and i had been married for 21 years; over 10 years i spent some dollars each year so i eventually built up a nice system and my wife understood what it meant for both of us clearly. she supported it and so when i took the plunge to build the room she supported that too since we had a track record of how it worked. i don't think you can generalize about whether what works in one relationship that is at one point would also work for another that is at a different point.

there are financial aspects to 'extreme audio' that can be a big deal. if someone is spending 'mortgage money' or 'retirement money' on 'extreme audio' then it will put a strain on any relationship. i see that most 'extreme audio' systems involve people with mature relationships and careers. their jobs are/were typically stressful and they want a bit of 'zen' to relax....that's me!

my wife and i are 'best friends' and share interests in many things but the audio is mostly me. OTOH she always knows right where i am. after 33 years we are both happy.

mikelavigne February 26, 2007 19:16

Hi Mike, I've been watching and reading about your audiophile involvements for a while now, impressive journey! First I have to congratulate you on your latest setup, its my understanding that you probably have one of the best sounding systems and room in the US if not on the planet earth. Second, it sounds like you have the "buy-in" from the misses to go to these extreme levels of audiophilism (may just have created a new word :>). I was wondering what advice you can give some of us out there on how to successfully exercise this extreme form of hobby if you can call it that!

Thanks for any advice.
Henry

mtkhl567 February 26, 2007 13:39

Frank.....sorry....my typing (Frabk)

:^)

and no edit function after posting on these threads.

mikelavigne February 26, 2007 11:46

Frabk and Mike; thanks.

Metralla; thanks for the comments. for the last year or so i have been working on starting the decorating process in the room to make it a bit more of a 'warmer' people place. of course; that process takes time and some money.

i had been using a smaller 'Persian' carpet under my chair which i did not really like. after looking around i found the large 'red looking' carpet you see. please exuse my terrible photography.

i wanted something that was vivid to add some energy and color but not too strong that it would be overwhelming. here is a picture from the store i purchased it . even this picture does not show the deep red with black running thru it. it is from India...and likely machine woven and but i think uses natural dyes.

for the last year i have been searching for Navaho carpets to use as art on the wall. to keep from compromising the acoustics i needed to have them be fairly small; and i wanted them to compliment the other carpet but be more vivid and create some contrast on the 'very plain' fabric walls. i had traveled down to Arizona for business in December and looked at quite a few then; but my wife was not with me so i did not buy. then last week my wife and i visited the Grand Canyon and visited a store in Sedona where we purchased those three Navahos. i also got pictures of the Navaho artisans that wove them and stories about them.

until i put them in the room i was not sure they would work; but they did what i was looking for. my room now feels much more now like what i wanted it to.

i'll look forward to your inperson comments when you (hopefully) visit again.

mikelavigne February 26, 2007 11:31