This is a project that's been on going since the days of my Lenco experiments. My Lenco project is posted as a virtual system here at Audiogon too.
My Technics SP10 MK2 in custom African Wenge plinth is posted in my main system and this Technics SP10 MK3 in Panzerholz and Ebony Plinth was completed November 20th, 2008.
More images to follow, including the Ebony custom platform it will rest on. The platform is 9 layer construction including a layer of Texas Instruments shield with active ground plane.
Albert, I have been using the Micro ST-10 weight for about 30 years on various Technics SP-10's, it has basically become part of my left hand when I put on a record. My wrist has been kept strong due to its 1Kg weight and I must confess to dropping it once destroying a record. I believe this was sold as a mate to your Micro mat. It came with a rubber disc to be used under it or the disc. On close inspection you can see that it is "decoupled" from the spindle with brass/rubber bushings and it is not just a heavy weight.
have you heard the new Pierre Lurne turntable, the Audiomeca Belladonna Reference. Its a beatiful turntable with a very nice sound, I heard it with the Septum arm and Dynavector XV-1t cartridge.
Mike, I am very much pro clamp, I used one with the Walker and with both SP10 MK2 and MK3. Each clamp sounds different and unfortunately the mat +clamp is another sound all together.
So far my favorite is the Micro Seiki CU180 gunmetal mat plus Walker or TT weights mentioned above.
The Walker system of a thin lead washer on top of the mat to slightly elevate the LP makes his clamp more useful in flattening LP's. The TT Weight has a totally flat bottom (no cut out relief) meaning it does not do so well with the washer.
After you have everything broken in it's not a big deal to spend a day with each combination and over time you'll discover one is perfect for your rig. I have several mats, including the Boston, Funk Firm, Micro Seiki, two styles from Technics and Herbies.
As I said, so far the Micro Seiki is best but I have not heard the TT Weights mat which is similar, except it's pure copper rather than gunmetal.
At some point prior to my Rockport purchase, I went on a quest to find the "best" clamp for my then current Goldmund Reference. After listening to 10 or 12 clamps including the one provided with the Reference, I did find one which was head and shoulders above the rest. It is made by Pierre Lurne who designed part of the Goldmund line and has his own separate line of TT's and other audio products. I do not believe that there is currently a US importer but I am probably wrong.
For anyone needing a clamp for their Technics (or perhaps other table) the locking variety for sale here at Audiogon is excellent.
Typical ad reads
TTSuperClamp Dampened/Brass Body/Internal Media and an Aluminum Collet System, the ultimate clamp.
Housing/BRASS body is filed with a dampening media/BRASS and Silica Sand and sealed. Improved dampening and soundstage.
I played with this clamp at their booth at the Canada audio show and had to have one. During the weeks since I have compared with half a dozen others.
The other contender is the Walker multi piece clamp that comes with the Black Diamond turntable. The Walker is slightly better in deep bass and TT Super Clamp is slightly better in upper midrange. Both are EXCELLENT.
Other clamps include three other TT Weights, JA Mitchell, Walker, Alchemist and of course no clamp at all as begin point. I thought it worth mentioning since it's reasonably priced and works so well.
My Technics SP10 MK3 arrived yesterday, Music Technology replaced more than fifty capacitors, upgraded to Stealth diodes and an unknown quantity of modern high speed rectifiers.
The caps are beautiful, FC and FM series low ESR Panasonic. All voltages calibrated to original specs check for accuracy.
I hope to get help moving it onto my stand sometime this weekend and will report what I hear.
Between Albert and the devil, I bought a direct drive table. Peter at PBN audio, had a Denon DN 308 table on Audiogon, I couldn't resist. The table has a motor the size of a one gallon paint can but--- the three inch particle board plinth with a thin aluminum plate has to go.
The SME 312 s arm sounds great with my Platinum Signature Jade I bought almost two years ago and I finally got to hear how it sounds. I hear that a new cartridge body is available made from magma from the Mt. St. Helens eruption and the sound is worth the cost!!!
Mark, the aluminum is for resonance control and constrained layer damping, could have also used Corian. I don't know the adhesive my wood guy used when he built this for me.
I'm about to undertake my own TT plinth build and have a question or two for you. 1. Is the purpose of the aluminum plate to add mass or does it have other purposes? 2. Is the aluminum plate adhered to the wood portion of the plinth or screwed through? If adhered, what type of adhesive would hold this combination?
Thanks for sharing you efforts here; hopefully I'll have similar successes when I finally undertake this.
I hope to have my rebuilt Technics SP10 MK3 in a few weeks, the chance to hear this unit in totally restored condition is exciting. I'll post results once I compare it.
"Back in the day" Thorens made an aftermarket vacuum mat. The mat was hard rubber with a thin outer sealing edge with two radial vacuum channels and a plastic chrome hat that fit over the spindle. In use a hose from a small pump was fitted to hat, the pump swiched on and the record sucked down. The hose was removed (no pulsing vac.)and the record was played. The vacuum easily held for an entire side. I remember at the time it solved alot of warped record problems but I had some concern of damage to the vinyl from the great negative pressure (high "suck")...........
I've been reading rather than posting. I agree with most of these comments, I've owned dozens of tables with and without vac and a number of linear track arms, some with and some without vac hold down at the same time.
Drajreynolds
At the end of the day each approach (direct drive vs belt drive, servo controlled/corrected motor versus obsessive engineering tolerances, linear tracking tonearm versus pivoted tonearm, unipivot versus gimbal bearings, air bearing versus mechanically grounded bearing, etc) has its own set of strengths and weaknesses which just goes to show that there are many paths to satisfaction.
No disagreement on that, every part of a turntable contributes to it's signature or sound. The material it's made from, speed accuracy and how that accuracy is obtained. The Rockport and Technics are accurate direct drives and the positive comments Mike Lavigne makes about Garrard 301 is because it shares the "drive personality" of the Rockport, Technics, EMT and other rim and direct drive systems.
If the Technics had been available with and without a vac hold down system, you can bet I would have tested it both ways by now. Since that is not possible, I have to choose performance of the table against all others I've heard, with and without vac.
No doubt there are LP's in every collection that are not flat and would benefit from vac hold down. The second option is a clamping system and obtaining at least partial success toward perfection. The way I clamp is successful and the combination of mat, clamp and spacers is providing the best LP playback I've ever had.
My comment about vac hold down being a spring is something I've been told by several designers. The problem is not only voids under the LP, it's the vac system itself and the pulsing motion the pump applies to the record to maintain vac.
Ideally the vac would be applied and no further action required and I suppose some system and some LP somewhere work in that perfect world. Meanwhile there are lots of systems that leak and the pump continues to pull at the bottom of the LP, creating microscopic motion that may or may not coincide with what the needle should be seeing.
Ken
Next week our audio group will be visiting "The Record Cutter" in northern VA. He has three Neumann lathes that all incorporate vacuum hold down via a tube that couples to the center spindle of the platter.
That's the same method used by Versa Dynamics and Basis, at least the models I owned. After you apply that science to your own project you can determine which is preferred. When I owned the Basis Debut (all three versions), no way would I consider it without the vac. Still, the Technics MK3 is my (current) favorite, so I have to accept the system as it is.
We all know you're a professional photographer. I think you're more of a gardener. You plant a seed. ------I'm building a table with this or that. I'm using a green arm with a blue mat and a plinth made of camel dung. The last remark is no reference to your SP 10 MK III project.
You prompt more posts on Audiogon because you get us all to think and interact. In that vein, I'd like to say that think that a vacuum hold down is the way to go,---- if it's possible.
I'm going to order a copper mat , clamp ring and record clamp from tt? and see how it sounds.
Next week our audio group will be visiting "The Record Cutter" in northern VA. He has three Neumann lathes that all incorporate vacuum hold down via a tube that couples to the center spindle of the platter. I will see if I can incorporate that on my Denon.308. I can't believe I'm not able to accomplish the task.
Life is fun, but only if they're new mountains to climb.
The platter for vacuum equipped Basis turntables also has the four veins as Mike describes for his Rockport. I can't imaging playing warped LPs without a "proper" vacuum hold down system. Even my most warped LPs have zero give under them when the vacuum hold down system is engaged. Every LP is tightly coupled to the platter.
I agree with Albert that better control over speed stability pays big dividends which is why I invested a considerable sum of money into the Basis Synchro-Wave power supply and requisite mods to the stock motor.
I have spent a fair amount of time with a Continuum Caliburn and Cobra combination that was properly setup and dialed in (by the designer no less) and the science behind each design/engineering choice can clearly be heard in that case.
At the end of the day each approach (direct drive vs belt drive, servo controlled/corrected motor versus obsessive engineering tolerances, linear tracking tonearm versus pivoted tonearm, unipivot versus gimbal bearings, air bearing versus mechanically grounded bearing, etc) has its own set of strengths and weaknesses which just goes to show that there are many paths to satisfaction.
I would be willing to bet that the audible (and measurable) differences between any two pairs of loudspeakers, in room, is far greater than the sonic difference between any two competently designed analog front ends regardless of design choice.
Mike, I guess it depends on whether the record is flat or not. If the record is flat, it lies on the mat/platter just fine. If not, it will have give/spring over a certain portion, which is Ken's issue.
It sounds from your description like the Rockport vacuum system is different to the others I have seen (Micro, Luxman, AT, etc), and well-designed at that. However, neither your Garrard, nor any of my tables, benefits from having a Rockport clampdown system however, so then the question comes of what to do on tables not so equipped. Do you know of a similarly-constructed aftermarket clampdown system? I, for one, would love one, because not all my records are flat. I guess at a certain point, one could just buy an Orb Record Flatter (they retail in Japan at a lot less than people sell them for overseas).
aren't the vacuum clamp-down systems built so that there is a very thin cushion of 'vacuum' between the platter and the record (other than where the rubber lips meet the vinyl)?
once the vac is pulled the layer of air between the LP and platter becomes a "spring."
are all vacuum systems created equal? i really do not know the answer. i've only used the one on the Rockport.
on the Rockport that there are 4 grooves which extend out from the center which carry the negative air pressure. my understanding is that the platter surface is held firmly against the Lp by the negative pressure from those 4 grooves. if you push against the Lp while the vacuum is engaged there is zero 'give'. in any case it is much more firmly planted than any clamping system or magic mat can do.
it is hard to imagine that any other mat or clamping system system would not have a GREATER tendancy to be a spring than the vacuum system i use.
As you know, probably better than almost anyone else , Lloyd is more than just a wealth of knowledge in the dark art of audio, but he and Felicia are fun people to be around. I played a Tape Project tape of the Arnold Overtures and Lloyd got up and danced as if he was an 18 year old ballerina.
Those in the Walker family know his ability to transfer his knowledge to those of us that are customers. It matters not that you own a Black Diamond table, a vortex tube or any of the other other products Walker Audio offers. I got a dose of that today. First off; I couldn't find the Talisman, Ultra Vivid, SST and a few other goodies Lloyd sent me a few months ago. Felicia found them under a pile of ATR tapes what can I say!
They treated an Amanda McBroom XRCD with the Ultra Vivid and I thought I was listening to tape.
The four step record cleaning system was uncovered and made an improvement in the sound the Jennifer Warnens 45 rpm re-issue. I need to pay Jonathan for the copy! I guess I need to stop and smell the roses thru a BIGGER nose.
Albert, I think I'm to the point where I need to learn how to use the gear I have rather than to keep on buying.
On another note, I'm listening to a Micro Mat as we speak. It has a warp so it's of no use.
I'm looking at a copper mat, clamp ring, weight made in Canada. The Denon 308 will need a larger clamp ring and centering device but I think it might a logical step before trying to engineer vacuum clamping ALA Neumann.
I'm listening to the Denon as I type. The sound is fantastic with an SME 312 S arm and a Signature Jade cartridge. I wonder how long it will take me to stop working and LEARN to listen. Lloyd and Felicia got me on that path.
Your explanation is reasonable and makes sense. Lloyd will be visiting tomorrow and I'll look forward to his thoughts regarding the results of using the Micro Seiki mat on the Denon.
Fritz the cat, the Micro Seiki is so heavy, it is almost impossible to remove from the SP10 MK3, once it's in place. I had to use duct tape to get enough traction to raise the mat enough to even get a screwdriver under it, so I could work my fingers to lift it.
The metal mat is very heavy and the lip on the Technics is undercut, so the pad drops into no mans land, once lined up and let go.
I'm sure the vacuum system is good, I've had several. The problem comes from being obsessed with a detail that may or may not be important to the end performance. Turns out the drive system, tonearm, cartridge and set up outweigh the vacuum system.
I had two Basis Debut gold MK4 side by side, one with vacuum and one without. The addition of a Walker motor controller (yes that works on a Basis) turns out to be several times more performance than the vac.
By the way, T_bone is correct, once the vac is pulled the layer of air between the LP and platter becomes a "spring." That's why Lloyd Walker never put vac on the Walker Black Diamond turntable.
