Albert,

I too have a KAB strobe. I don't feel that there is enough resolution with the device.

A friend in our audio group hosts the unofficial website for the Kenwood L 07d direct drive turntable. When I mentioned to him I was going to use the KAB strobe to set the speed on my old SOTA he offered to come over and show me a better way.

He used a test record with a 3120 HZ test tone band. He connected a digital frequency counter with accuracy to four decimal places on the mid range taps of one of my speakers. That particular frequency is one the human ear is able to resolve with respect to stability. Using the counter we were able to set the speed of the table dead on. I'm sure the accuracy of the Neumann lathe that cut the record would be a deciding factor regarding a reference tone. However, I think Neumann used the same drive motor employed in your SP 10 MK III on their VMS 70 lathe.

Right offhand, I don't know where my test record is or remember the label. It may be interesting for you to measure the speed of your table using the 3120 HZ test tone method just for the heck of it. I think I'll try it on my Denon.

Ken

kftool July 06, 2009 15:30

Hi Alley cat,

You've probably addressed this question, but can you tell me by what means you check the speed accuracy of the table? KAB and other devices can't come close to measuring the speed of the table accurately. The clock in the power supply is vastly more accurate than any other mechanical device. Do you trust your ears after re capping and up grading the power supply or is their a measurement device that tells you you've spent your money wisely?

While all electronic components degrade in time, do you decide to rebuild just for the heck of it and tell yourself that you'll hear a difference?

Albert, you probably can. It was just a rhetorical question from a friend who has trouble hearing above 11K

Fritz the cat.

kftool July 04, 2009 22:41

Hi Alley Cat,

Between Albert and the devil, I bought a direct drive table. Peter at PBN audio, had a Denon DN 308 table on Audiogon, I couldn't resist. The table has a motor the size of a one gallon paint can but--- the three inch particle board plinth with a thin aluminum plate has to go.

The SME 312 s arm sounds great with my Platinum Signature Jade I bought almost two years ago and I finally got to hear how it sounds. I hear that a new cartridge body is available made from magma from the Mt. St. Helens eruption and the sound is worth the cost!!!

I owe you some sounds and I'll deliver soon .

regards, Fritz the cat

kftool April 09, 2009 01:36

Albert,

We all know you're a professional photographer. I think you're more of a gardener. You plant a seed. ------I'm building a table with this or that. I'm using a green arm with a blue mat and a plinth made of camel dung. The last remark is no reference to your SP 10 MK III project.

You prompt more posts on Audiogon because you get us all to think and interact. In that vein, I'd like to say that think that a vacuum hold down is the way to go,---- if it's possible.

I'm going to order a copper mat , clamp ring and record clamp from tt? and see how it sounds.

Next week our audio group will be visiting "The Record Cutter" in northern VA. He has three Neumann lathes that all incorporate vacuum hold down via a tube that couples to the center spindle of the platter. I will see if I can incorporate that on my Denon.308. I can't believe I'm not able to accomplish the task.

Life is fun, but only if they're new mountains to climb.

Fritz the Kat.

kftool March 15, 2009 03:48

Alley cat,

As you know, probably better than almost anyone else , Lloyd is more than just a wealth of knowledge in the dark art of audio, but he and Felicia are fun people to be around. I played a Tape Project tape of the Arnold Overtures and Lloyd got up and danced as if he was an 18 year old ballerina.

Those in the Walker family know his ability to transfer his knowledge to those of us that are customers. It matters not that you own a Black Diamond table, a vortex tube or any of the other other products Walker Audio offers. I got a dose of that today. First off; I couldn't find the Talisman, Ultra Vivid, SST and a few other goodies Lloyd sent me a few months ago. Felicia found them under a pile of ATR tapes what can I say!

They treated an Amanda McBroom XRCD with the Ultra Vivid and I thought I was listening to tape.

The four step record cleaning system was uncovered and made an improvement in the sound the Jennifer Warnens 45 rpm re-issue. I need to pay Jonathan for the copy! I guess I need to stop and smell the roses thru a BIGGER nose.

Albert, I think I'm to the point where I need to learn how to use the gear I have rather than to keep on buying.

On another note, I'm listening to a Micro Mat as we speak. It has a warp so it's of no use.

I'm looking at a copper mat, clamp ring, weight made in
Canada. The Denon 308 will need a larger clamp ring and centering device but I think it might a logical step before trying to engineer vacuum clamping ALA Neumann.

I'm listening to the Denon as I type. The sound is fantastic with an SME 312 S arm and a Signature Jade cartridge. I wonder how long it will take me to stop working and LEARN to listen. Lloyd and Felicia got me on that path.

Time to Cogitate on the day's happenings.

Fritz the Kat>

kftool March 14, 2009 23:44

Albert,

Your explanation is reasonable and makes sense. Lloyd will be visiting tomorrow and I'll look forward to his thoughts regarding the results of using the Micro Seiki mat on the Denon.

Ken the Kat.

kftool March 14, 2009 04:36

Alley cat,

With all due respect from a guy that likes his records SUCKED down. Putting two metal plates together and expecting them to mate as if they are one is utopia. I tell Sue that her nooks fit my crannies, but we're both flexible where metal isn't.

If coupling the record to the platter is important, shouldn't it be necessary to treat the platter, mat, record as one. When a record is cut on a lathe it is SUCKED down to the massive platter so that the only vibrations that EXIST are those from the cutter head.

In playback, shouldn't we mimic the same conditions that existed when the record was cut?

The Neumann lathes used a direct drive motor to power the platter, in the same vein as the Technics and Denon tables; I think it was a Technics, if I'm wrong I'll hear about it.

Have you tried a coupling agent between the two metal plates on your SP 10 MK III ?

I just can't get over watching a record go around with vertical deflection. Vacuum, perimeter clamp ring, a cat riding the recording as it goes around, it seems that something is necessary. Maybe all I need is another cat

Enough of my thoughts; I await your reply.

regards, Fritz The Cat

kftool March 14, 2009 01:12

Albert,

I forgot to ask what you're using between the copper Micro Seiki mat and the metal SP 10 platter. I have a micro mat I'd like to try but need something in between the two metal plates; felt, rubber or something.

Ken

kftool March 13, 2009 20:46

Hi Alley Cat,

I'm sorry I missed you at the CES but my company ACTUALLY GOT AN ORDER! I had to wurk, weerk, wuerk, wuerc. work for a change; it's been so long that I'd forgotten how to spell it. My ticket was non refundable but I charged it off on the company as I have, had, a few customers in the area.

The Denon DN 308 table that I got from Peter at PBN audio is beautiful. He veneered the cabinet with rosewood and the job was stellar! Since he builds top dollar loudspeakers I expected nothing less than the best.

I look to you for advice regarding a mat. The factory mat is old and funky; we both know what that that means, especially at bedtime. I have a copper mat from a friend and an Oracle mat that I bought for my Thorens TD 124 many moons ago. With the original mat the sound is fabulous, even if it's not a belt drive, suck down platter.

Albert, I'm a firm believer in vacuum hold down on playback, as that's how the master is cut.
I have a table with speed accuracy to the n'th degree but if the record has contact problems with the platter I might just buy that Table that spins the record in mid air, the Ronco MK III.

Next weekend our audio group is traveling to visit "The Record Cutter" in northern Va. to view three Neumann Lathes and cut a record from a source we each bring. I'll be looking at the vacuum connection to the platter that Neumann incorporated, a tube to a hollow center spindle. My thought is to ply a vacuum disc to the DN 308 platter and end up with the same result as Neumann designed in their last lathe.

I have a room reserved at the Tucker Pavilion in Richmond for the mentally deficient. Your response will determine if I need to make a deposit!

Alley Cat, I await your reply.

Ken

kftool March 13, 2009 01:25

Hi Alley cat,

The table looks great as do the photographs. Did you hire a professional photographer to take them or do it yourself ?

Fritz the cat

kftool November 23, 2008 15:37