This is a project that's been on going since the days of my Lenco experiments. My Lenco project is posted as a virtual system here at Audiogon too.
My Technics SP10 MK2 in custom African Wenge plinth is posted in my main system and this Technics SP10 MK3 in Panzerholz and Ebony Plinth was completed November 20th, 2008.
More images to follow, including the Ebony custom platform it will rest on. The platform is 9 layer construction including a layer of Texas Instruments shield with active ground plane.
You had discussed above concerning the cost involved in replacing diodes,rectifiers,capacitors etc. to the tune of about 1k! By watching the maturity level unfold between your mk2 and now mk3 tables i have become a large admirer of your finished product et al.
Do you actually build these tables for customers? if so could you offer a breakdown of where the monies are spent and the time needeed to complete such a job to the exacting standards of yours? I am most willing to pay as i have sold my top of the line Kuzma 4 point/Airline just from the completion of my Garrard 301 project with Reed silver wired tonearm and Ortofon a90 cart which may have you rethinking the pc-1 Supreme that left with it!...:)
If the truth be known...i would like your technical and engineering expertise to creat one of these masterpieces for myself...cost no object if it proves to serve the music.
I would be most interested in who might be able to build me an exact copy of your custom outboard power supply as i am starting my own project of a Technics Mk 3? Any help would be most appreciated!
Don't you mean Imitation is the sincerest form of theft? :^).
Yes, I saw the plinth with Technics MK2 and it's absolutely a copy of my design.
Admittedly, I went out on the web and looked at dozens of designs for all kinds of turntables and each contributed to my idea. That being said, mine is not like any other. At least until this (cosmetic) copy showed up.
Albert, I've been thoroughly enjoying your original wenge plinthed mk2 which I bought from you in June. I was very surprised today to find an almost identical design listed for sale here on audiogon but in mohagoney instead of wenge. There's no way two people could come up with designs this similar independently. Did you sell the plan to your plinth or was it essentially stolen. I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Yes to the plinth, unknown on the air pump. As for circuit boards, my tech can probably rebuild and improve but it would require the entire turntable in his hands for proper testing and evaluation.
I don't know about cost, my Technics MK3 outboard supply was a thousand dollars after all was done but that included over 50 caps, all new high speed rectifiers and stealth diodes. About all we left was the circuit boards, even some of the primary wire was replaced with Purist Anniversary conductor and the addition of an IEC connector allows for aftermarket AC cord.
The change was substantial, this Technics MK3 winds up being the best turntable I've ever heard.
Hello Albert. Do you think you could completely rebuild a used Micro Seiki SX-777 FV turntable incl. new plinith (like the one you´ve build for the Technics SL-10 MK III) rebuild the airpump and the motor (and improve it) and the circuit boards ? Or do you probably know somebody who can ? Looking foreward hearing from you. Best, Frank
Hello BN, Yes on upgrade. Here is my response of 7-2-09.
07-02-09: Albertporter Albert, did you hear difference in sonics after you had the "electronics" (e.g. caps, regulators, etc) replaced in your SP-10 Mk III?
Gshelly, there was a big difference in performance after the modifications. I wish it were not so because it costs about $1000.00 by the time it's all done. I think the work moved my MK3 more than the original difference between the MK2 and MK3.
It's possible the first MK3 had some issues and part of what I heard after the work was simply the fact it was now "correct." However, I bought a second MK3 and it's got the universal AC transformer and it's in my system now and I keep missing what the one with mods brought to the music.
I hope to get the better one back soon, it's now getting some of the original Japanese chips replaced. I'll report if that does anything more. At least at that point there is almost nothing left to change.
If there is something specific beyond that response, ask and I will respond.
I was wondering if the upgrades ( i.e. I believe it was capacitor replacements) in your Technics Mk III power supply made any audible difference? If so could you give a percentage improvement?
Albert, apologies in advance for taking this thread off-topic. I wrote a VERY long post here and decided to trim it down. I can provide further details by mail if you want.
Frankpiet and Albert, I just had a long chat with the gentleman at the Pioneer Service Center who repairs all the P3s and P3as which come in. I asked him a lot of very detailed questions regarding the P3, the P3a, and their differences, with a lot of stuff that the service manual will not show/explain.
According to him, the main differences are: 1) ARMTUBE - the armtube on the P3a is less resonant because they stuffed the armtube with more dampening material, and because the 'node damper' which is stuck on the arm is better. The P3a armtubes c-a-n-n-o-t be used on the P3 (he said Pioneer did this on purpose). The P3 arms can be 'tweaked' to approach the P3a, but it takes some work. 2) PHONO CORD - different phono cord, resulting in lower capacitance. He noted that it is easily replace-able (completely plug'n'play with the Oyaide and Ortofon) and that many P3a and P3 owners who like jazz had switched to the Oyaide cable. POWER CORD - it's thicker. He hadn't heard of anyone saying it was better or worse, but it has slightly different electric properties. 3) MOTOR ACCURACY - the P3a motor controller speed accuracy is theoretically up to 10ppm better, however the P3 'error' is reduced to less than half its spec'd level when repaired (or else they won't let it go out the door), and because of the already low starting level of potential speed error on the P3, it effectively means that P3s which have been serviced are practically identical to P3as in performance. 4) DRIVE SERVO AMP - the drive servo amp is different on the P3a from the P3. In fact, there are two versions of the electronics of the P3a (early, and later). The later P3a servo amp is the best, with a very wide servo range (i.e. very tweak-able if there is drift). 5) OTHER - while not really a performance issue, the later version of the electronics in the P3a (there were 2 versions (early, later), has a more adjustable drive servo amp (makes it easier to service should parts drift).
REPAIRABILITY There is one IC in the P3, and P3as which is not replaceable. So far, not a single P3 or P3a has ever come in with that IC being bad, but if one did, they could not repair it.
WHERE THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE The platter bearing, platter, motor/magnet construction, arm bearing/internals/base/plinth/springs, and almost everything else is the same.
WHERE DOES THE SNR DIFFERENCE COME FROM? He ascribes this to what happened when the various mfrs started "spec wars" in the early 1980s. The late 1970s tables had DIN-B SN ratio specs which were "as-is". In the early 1980s, the various mfrs started using weighting methodologies across the noise curve to 'filter' the result, which meant that stated DIN-B SNR specs were substantially higher. Several times, he ascribed this to the 'numbers magic of marketers' and said there was nowhere near that difference, and that any difference which was likely to be heard was in the phono cord if your cart requires super-low capacitance (which I would ascribe as a 'quality' of high output MMs? - but this is easily fixed on a P3), and in armtube construction (which is less easily fixed on a P3), which would show up as a factor depending on cartridge choice.
WOULD BETTER PARTS MAKE IT BETTER? I asked him about improving electronic parts. He said that it was possible that it would be better, but that the real part which mattered was the 'torque attenuator circuit' (and it really is like an attenuator) which is their most important adjustment to make when servicing/repairing a P3 - the other stuff either works or doesn't (within spec), and that shows up in the torque tests.
More detailed info is available on these points if you are ever interested. Cheers, Travis
I would not mind trying that method but my turntable is in the hands of an expert that I trust implicitly.
After I got my table back last time it was the most speed accurate, dynamic and musical correct presentation I've ever heard from LP. That has to count for something, I'm convinced he got it right.
My Studer arrives on Thursday, we need to talk about tape too :^).
I too have a KAB strobe. I don't feel that there is enough resolution with the device.
A friend in our audio group hosts the unofficial website for the Kenwood L 07d direct drive turntable. When I mentioned to him I was going to use the KAB strobe to set the speed on my old SOTA he offered to come over and show me a better way.
He used a test record with a 3120 HZ test tone band. He connected a digital frequency counter with accuracy to four decimal places on the mid range taps of one of my speakers. That particular frequency is one the human ear is able to resolve with respect to stability. Using the counter we were able to set the speed of the table dead on. I'm sure the accuracy of the Neumann lathe that cut the record would be a deciding factor regarding a reference tone. However, I think Neumann used the same drive motor employed in your SP 10 MK III on their VMS 70 lathe.
Right offhand, I don't know where my test record is or remember the label. It may be interesting for you to measure the speed of your table using the 3120 HZ test tone method just for the heck of it. I think I'll try it on my Denon.
I check with a KAB strobe but the guy that did the upgrades is the one that made everything right. Speed accuracy is a factor of all the original (or replacement) parts being exactly in specification so everything works as designed. There are literally dozens of check points in the circuit and everything has adjustments.
When parts are old there is no adjustment range and when parts exceed original performance the values can be set and the "headroom" of the super parts makes is more difficult for anything to get off value.
The tech that did my work said the original caps were "just' able to pull off accuracy even though they were the best available 24 (or so) years ago.
The newest caps, stealth diodes and rectifiers are many times more accurate, with less ESR and noise and help the original design sail through the tough places with ease.
I swear that after all the parts were replaced and everything calibrated to original specs with oscilloscope, it was performing better than new.
You've probably addressed this question, but can you tell me by what means you check the speed accuracy of the table? KAB and other devices can't come close to measuring the speed of the table accurately. The clock in the power supply is vastly more accurate than any other mechanical device. Do you trust your ears after re capping and up grading the power supply or is their a measurement device that tells you you've spent your money wisely?
While all electronic components degrade in time, do you decide to rebuild just for the heck of it and tell yourself that you'll hear a difference?
Albert, you probably can. It was just a rhetorical question from a friend who has trouble hearing above 11K
Frankpiet, Thanks for the info. I thought I'd answered but it appears to have either gotten lost in the ether... either that or two answers will pop up. I figured the difference was in the bearing in particular but when I asked the Pioneer service guy who worked on mine when I got my P3 fixed, he said the bearing/motor were the same. He mentioned differences in wiring, slight differences in controller, small weight differences (but he wasn't sure where they came from), and a slightly different structure of arm base. However, I think a difference in bearing material might also be the 'culprit.' Given the small price rise over 3-4 years since the previous price rise, and how fast top end equipment prices were rising at the time, it is unlikely that they added something hugely more expensive.
As to my comment about the price difference between the SP-10Mk3 and the P3/P3a... the SP-10Mk3 was less than half by itself (JPY 250k), but when paired with arm and base, it was JPY 500-520k, and the SL-1000Mk3 package was usually sold with a cart. Then a year later, the P3a came out at JPY 650k (up from the P3's JPY 600k until 1982), and the same year Technics splashed out an SL-1000Mk3D which added a special armwand an EPC-100CMk4 cart standard, bringing the whole package to JPY 650k. You got a cart with that whereas you did not with a P3a but when both were on the shelf with a JPY 650,000 price tag, I guess it came down to which one you lusted after.
Albert, did you hear difference in sonics after you had the "electronics" (e.g. caps, regulators, etc) replaced in your SP-10 Mk III?
Gshelly, there was a big difference in performance after the modifications. I wish it were not so because it costs about $1000.00 by the time it's all done. I think the work moved my MK3 more than the original difference between the MK2 and MK3.
It's possible the first MK3 had some issues and part of what I heard after the work was simply the fact it was now "correct." However, I bought a second MK3 and it's got the universal AC transformer and it's in my system now and I keep missing what the one with mods brought to the music.
I hope to get the better one back soon, it's now getting some of the original Japanese chips replaced. I'll report if that does anything more. At least at that point there is almost nothing left to change.
The S/N with the P3 is 78db and the S/N of the P3a is incredible 95db. Regarding the asking price: the P3a was at its time double the costs of the SP-10 MK III
Frank, I would appreciate your posting back here on results of the P3a.
Albert/ T-Bone: there are some differences between P3 and P3a regarding the bearing and the motor. The S/N with the P3 is 78db and the S/N of the P3a is incredible 95db. Regarding the asking price: the P3a was at its time double the costs of the SP-10 MK III - which is regarding to the build quality o.k. (only surpassed by the big Micro Seikis and the Goldmund Reference at that time). Í can report more on the P3a when I receive mine - I was lucky to buy one in Tokyo to acompany my Micro SX-1500 FVG which I´ve send to a specialist for modification
The FerriShield I choose is a Texas Instruments product that I obtained through Mike Percy. The item I use is listed in the middle of page 14 of his PDF download.
The problem is not getting the material, but punching a precision hole for the spindle and cutting it in a precise circle since it's 14 thousandths thick and multiple layer metal construction.
