This is a project that's been on going since the days of my Lenco experiments. My Lenco project is posted as a virtual system here at Audiogon too.
My Technics SP10 MK2 in custom African Wenge plinth is posted in my main system and this Technics SP10 MK3 in Panzerholz and Ebony Plinth was completed November 20th, 2008.
More images to follow, including the Ebony custom platform it will rest on. The platform is 9 layer construction including a layer of Texas Instruments shield with active ground plane.
i am interested to get my P3a electronics update, is there anyone you can put me in touch of. also is it possible to take out just the electronics board and send to pioneer service center in japan
I didnt notice if it was already mentioned, but did replacing the original Japanese chips in your MKIII do anything for sonic improvement?
By chips are you referring to the rectifiers and diodes? If yes, the parts swap is necessary due to age. When electronics get to be 25 years old most of the parts are no longer in spec. Caps are frequently bad or soon to fail. Caps and other parts such as new high speed rectifiers and Stealth Diodes are just plain better than what was available 25 years ago.
Also, Im considering a dual tonearm setup and wondering if theres additional tonearm/cartridge combinations you'd recommend.
Any good arm in the 10.5" to 12" range. These tables were designed for that length when new. Mounting a 9" arm winds up near the middle of the arm board rather than the upper corner as we expect to see.
I like the SME 312S and V-12. The Micro Seiki MAX is excellent and Technics arms that came on these tables are popular with a lot of people as well.
It comes down to how much you want to spend. For me, I would go for as good an arm and cartridge as I could afford and hold off on the second arm until funds permit.
Thanks Albert, I appreciate the response and sent Bill an email.
I didnt notice if it was already mentioned, but did replacing the original Japanese chips in your MKIII do anything for sonic improvement?
Also, Im considering a dual tonearm setup and wondering if theres additional tonearm/cartridge combinations you'd recommend. I dont know the feasibility of having you make a custom plinth, or whether adding a second arm would affect system dynamics, but thought Id throw it all into the mix and ask.
My first MK2 was partially rebuilt here in Dallas, both myself and members of my audio group replaced whatever necessary to insure it ran.
At that time I had no concern for making it perfect, it was just a project that followed the (previous project) Lenco as an opportunity to see what these designs could do.
After placing the MK2 in our first plinth design along with SME 312S and Air Tight PC-1 we were floored at the listening experience. Later we experimented with various mats for the platter and raised the performance again.
I still think the Technics MK2 is astounding, money not withstanding. However, ALL the details must be in place to bring performance to where it's capable of going.
Today I send all my rebuild work to Bill Thalmann in Va. He was with Conrad Johnson and is a superb craftsman. Knowing the potential of the MK2 and MK3, we now scrape all the old parts and replace with modern version. This includes all the caps, diodes and rectifiers.
I am not connected to Bill in any way, just call him up and discuss with him what you want. The only thing I can offer is the plinth and it's typically way behind in availability due to the workmanship involved.
Contact me via Audiogon or my web site when and if you want a plinth. I have three coming up sometime soon.
Fantastic thread Albert, so glad to have gotten to the end and see it's still alive! I'm intending to have a build done on a MK2, and wondering if you can finally reveal where you had your work done for re-cap, restoration, etc? (assuming you recommend their work.) I'm opting for one of your plinths. Also, what were the other components used on your original MK2 that got the ball rolling?
Albert, Rolando from argentina, between Technics sp-10 mk3, garrard 301,garrard 401 and Lenco 75 what is the better?your apreciations please,thanks
Rolando,
I'm not sure I can answer correct beyond stating the Technics MK3 is the best.
The Lenco and Garrard have so many aftermarket bearings, idler wheel and top plate mods I doubt anyone has heard every concievable combination in a controlled environment.
That makes it pretty much impossible to conclusively state that a particular version Garrard or Lenco is above all else. Some of the mods I've heard are startling in their ability to improve.
The strength of the Technics MK3, Garrard and Lenco are their ability to deliver power to the platter. That power translates into superior dynamics, pitch and bass control. Those factors are what make those designs a winner.
The MK3 is more speed accurate than the others and has more torque. It also turns at (only) the speed necessary to drive the platter which means less movement and noise relative to necessary power to produce exact speed.
Today, i experimented a bit with cartridge bolt tightness,mats, the relationship between preamp, amp, cartridge loading, tonearm mounting bolt torques
There is an ideal cartridge bolt torque. Until recently I sold a precision torque wrench here at Audiogon (sold out now). It's setting was what is considered to be industry standard torque for cartridges.
Without the wrench I can only say the tightness is more than you might guess and you should use stainless hardware (non magnetic and tough).
My experience has been that their are about 9 failures for 1 success. Putting the Cardas cable into the mix was like putting in a brand new cartridge. Here comes the pessimist audiophile in me. I wonder if a used 1500 dollar cable would have done the same trick as the Cardas in this context? Maybe...maybe not. Sometimes [i think Im right when i say] synergy is $ sign blind.
If your standards are high, it's normal for most of your tests to end in failure or at least confusion. Not every combination can produce the "best sound". What's difficult is deciding about trade off.
Side questions: Is it bad for sound reproduction if my arm hum's slightly only when i touch it?
I would be nervous about that, would indicate something not quite right with grounding or tonearm connection.
*Don't get frustrated and don't have preconceived ideas about how something should sound. Don't condemn the "new" part right away, give it some thought. The problem may be something "exposed" in earlier change. Try hard to understand (not just hear) what each change is doing. *
Well, I like the advice someone once gave me of having something in your system for a while then switching back to the previous component as a way of making a more thorough evaluation, though i still will use quick A B A comparison's on occasion. I think each can have their place.
The other thing that i am trying to strictly follow/never veer from is to make only one change/replacement at a time once the system's sound has "snapped" into focus (sounds great) and if it doesn't take the sound a step in a forward direction revert back to the previous set up, otherwise i can find myself forever trying to get back the great sound i locked into because i made too many minute changes here or there and can't remember the combination that brought the positive result.(sometimes a tiny change can be profound) I think this applies at least in cases where you feel the sound has really come to a special place and they're aren't going to be any major components stages which might require some extra experimentation.
Today i listened for about 5hrs. Today, i experimented a bit with cartridge bolt tightness,mats, the relationship between preamp, amp, cartridge loading, tonearm mounting bolt torques(this usually doesn't cross my mind but today it did just purely out of curiosity), footers for my amp and a power cable change.
A few days ago i switched out fim silver speaker cables for fim gold speaker cables. Fim gold sounds more detailed, fuller, more cohesive but a touch warm so that it slightly homogonizes the sound, whereas the fim silver have a more direct presentation, smaller scale and renders cleaner, sometimes maybe too clean but overall still great. The fim gold had a more "complete" sound with more resolution but sometimes that resolution was a double edged sword. Like the reverb added to recording sounded way too unnatural. Like the decay was under a microsocope. Sometimes things could lean towards mechanical and threadbare. I wanted to keep the gold's good qualities but lose its bad ones cause it had alot of potential i thought cause it does some interesting things over the silver. Was the problem with the cable itself? was it something else? I will make a long story short, the tweaking of the breuer's mounting bolts (loosening them), using a solid neoprene unribbed mat alleviated some of that threadbareness. At the very end of my listening session just as i was about to power down the system, i asked myself what switching the power cord that feeds the acoustive revive rtp, which drove the vh audio airsine's which drive my preamps might do. The cord going into the rtp was the vh audio flavour 4 and i have a cardas golden reference kicking around. I knew from previous experimentation that the cardas cord could provide some body, even if it was a bit slow and a bit on the translucent side. It is just a "cheap" cord relative to some of my other components and compared to the stuff out there but switching it in really transformed the sound and gave everything this wonderful flow, richness, tonal density and body. The ultra detail of the fim gold was ameliorated by the cardas.
I could still hear the limitations of the cost effective snell cabinets, the slight dirtiness in their treble but it didn't matter, the snell's as clunky as they look, made some magic with norah jones's voice. Full, lush,detailed,emotional, expressive, dense, rich, 3d, natural, warm...
***Most of all, ENJOY your software. Listen with your heart, not just your ears. At some point long term, relaxed listening will help you understand what each change is providing and that is the key to getting everything right. ***
Thank you Albert. I try, I try!... but when i know that something fundamentally is amiss i CAN'T except it! cause something just isn't right! Anyways, I can happily say that that that little change of the cardas cable brought the sound to a place where it was EASY to relax and listen with my heart! I know when something is sounding wrong and something is sounding right(i tweak UNTIL... it is for the most part... "right"). Things are sounding right now. Not perfect but right.
***On my turntable I've had at least six different mats and at least that many clamps (or weights). It amazes me that each one brings something different to the party.***
Yes, good choice of words. "amazes"...It has amazed me too what small odd changes can do to effect the final sound. My experience has been that their are about 9 failures for 1 success. Putting the cardas cable into the mix was like putting in a brand new cartridge. Here comes the pessimist audiophile in me. I wonder if a used 1500 dollar cable would have done the same trick as the cardas in this context? Maybe...maybe not. Sometimes [i think i'm right when i say] synergy is $ sign blind.
Understanding/predicting electricity, "resonances" and price per performance ratio's is like thinking you know a women just by looking at her.
[Side questions: Is it bad for sound reproduction if my arm hum's slightly only when i touch it? 2. Does anyone hear "groove echo" on norah jones "the nearness of you"?]
The luxman compared to my systemdek and lenco... is very neutral , not romantic and more true. With some careful tweaking i can dial in the Luxman so it is very objective, clear, yet still musical and tonally neutral. Tonally neutral like Ive never heard it before! It is interestingly the first time i have been able to appreciate accuracy over a romantic sound.
Excellent description. When I first experienced top quality DD turntables I was surprised by what I was hearing, the experience was very different than what I was accustomed to.
I identified with your comment about "ghost imaging" even more so now that Ive listened to the Luxman for a couple weeks. Previous Luxman 444 owners have described its sound as coming eerily close to imitating master tape playback regarding its speed. I guess what i am hearing is just that quality. It sounds very close to "perfect" ...speedwise ...that it makes playback sound very interesting in this regard. It forces me to rethink what constitutes good playback.
What reinforces this even more is acquiring a top level tape machine and then comparing the same material on LP and then master dub.
I had the Ampex 351, modified Technics 1505 and Studer A810. Owning a tape machine and good software really forces one to re evaluate what your turntable (and digital) are doing and what might be improved.
I think a top line direct drive turntable comes close enough to master dubs that no one is angry when switching back and forth. My group does this frequently and it has helped us judge what's possible.
Now i want to try and dial in the tone of the table by experimenting possibly with Panzerholz armboards, different mat materials and different footers for my amps.
Each of those things matter and are clearly audible. The better you get your system is the more each tiny change becomes audible.
Don't get frustrated and don't have preconceived ideas about how something should sound. Don't condemn the "new" part right away, give it some thought. The problem may be something "exposed" in earlier change. Try hard to understand (not just hear) what each change is doing.
Most of all, ENJOY your software. Listen with your heart, not just your ears. At some point long term, relaxed listening will help you understand what each change is providing and that is the key to getting everything right.
On my turntable I've had at least six different mats and at least that many clamps (or weights). It amazes me that each one brings something different to the party. My latest is the Stillpoints Ultra LPI (record weight), another great product and variable to put into the mix.
A little while after i posted i managed to acquire a luxman pd444. I moved my breuer arm and allaerts cartridge over to the luxman from my tweaked out lenco 78. I am in the middle of deciding which i think sounds better/best in my system and according to my personal tastes.
The luxman 444 is a direct drive quartz locked design and i am developing a better grasp from a musical enjoyment perspective about how GREAT speed accuracy can play a vital role in great lp playback. Listening and living with it for a while is persuading me/showing me the virtues of speed accuracy.
The luxman compared to my systemdek and lenco... is very neutral , not romantic and more true. With some careful tweaking i can dial in the luxman so it is very objective, clear, yet still musical and tonally neutral. Tonally neurtral like i've never heard it before! It is interestingly the first time i have been able to appreciate accuracy over a romantic sound.
I identified with your comment about "ghost imaging" even more so now that i've listened to the luxman for a couple weeks. Previous luxman 444 owners have described its sound as coming eerily close to imitating master tape playback regarding its speed. I guess what i am hearing is just that quality. It sounds very close to "perfect" ...speedwise ...that it makes playback sound very interesting in this regard. It forces me to rethink what constitutes good playback.
Now i want to try and dial in the tone of the table by experimenting possibly with panzerholz armboards, different mat materials and different footers for my amps. I've already made some headway. The luxman is pleasingly objective (sounds like an oxymoron) and if i can successfully add a dash of organicness and seductive textures to it, i think it just might easily come out winner of the three tables! (if it isn't already)
I can now too believe that cap replacement can effect sound. The luxman sounds better plugged into a vh audio hot box than it does in a standard receptacle so if this can yield positive results then i can believe fresh good caps can do the same.
Sorry to be slow responding I somehow missed your questions on this topic. I'll quote you first and then respond for clarity.
That's cool that you went and visited the designer himself. I am very much enjoying my time with his tonearm design, with my jan allaerts and lenco.
The Breuer is incredibly precise but like all tonearms has it's strengths and weaknesses. The sound is very lively as mass is minimal and bearing friction very low.
I heard/saw in person my first sp10 mk2 yesterday. It was in a birchply only plinth with a sme 312 arm and a denon 103. I lowered the arm onto the record without the platter spinning and tapped on the plinth. It was a ringy plinth and probably didn't do justice to what the sp10 is more capable of.
The plinth is important to the Technics MK2 and MK3 but honestly, any suspension-less table finger tapped while needle is in the groove would make sound through the speakers, especially if the volume is high.
I use a Vibraplane to remove room interaction and floor feed vibration and have absolutely no noise or feedback with my MK3.
With my lenco , in regard to speed accuracy ,as long as i don't detect something annoying or distracting, i never really think twice about its speed. I don't think twice about wether or not it is 0.001 or 0.02 accurate. Now i have a nice systemdek iX table that is belt driven that does suffer from audible problems. Like sax and piano decay sound unnatural, to the point that it detracts from the musical engagement.
The direct connection or "torque" of your Lenco is a great deal of the magic you enjoy. The Technics MK2 and MK3 are higher torque, greater speed accuracy and signal to noise ratio.
The MK3 is far beyond the MK2 on torque and has better speed accuracy and is why I favor it.
I have a question for anyone. I am trying to understand how replacing capacitors on a POWER SUPPLY can SUBSTANTIALLY improve what finally comes through the speakers. That is, if you test the speed with a stock power supply and it reads 100 percent accurate then upgrade the power supply caps, re test and it reads , still, 100 percent accurate how can miniscule electrical value changes equal profound sonic changes?
The reason for changing caps in Technics is due to age. These tables are more than 25 year old and cap technology back then was not only inferior to today's product but time has broken them down where they may no longer be correct value.
Can impeccable speed in a turntable effect its tonal colors? In my opinion very little. I would say that the materials the table is made of plays a large part in that.(and their quantities and qualities) and the table design approach. This will, in my opinion play a larger part on fundamentally whether or not you will like a table.
Your statement is correct and incorrect from my perspective. I totally agree that material the table is made of, plinth it rests in and (of course) the tonearm and cartridge choice make a huge part of the listening experience with any table.
Speed accuracy is important and I think until you live with something as accurate as the MK3 you don't realize what part that plays. Inaccuracy can be pleasant, even fooling the ear into thinking there is more "depth" or providing some ghost imaging within the music due to minute phase shift.
For example, the sonic difference between a sp10 2 and a 3 i would attribute to the 3's much heavier platter, its different materials, the mat, and power supply NOT so much to their differences in speed accuracy, which must be relatively miniscule. Their fundamental design approach is virtually identical so tonally it will sound very similar.
Again I agree and disagree. The MK2 is remarkably close to the MK3 if dollar difference is factored in. HOWEVER, the MK3 is far more powerful and the magic you love from your Lenco is there with the MK3 in a way that you can understand only by living with one for an extended time.
The design of the two tables while similar is like comparing two identical automobiles, except one fitted with four cylinder engine and the other with a V8 or V12. The driving experience and performance differences are enormous, to the extent it seems like two completely different cars.
Anything improved at the source, even small advances reap huge rewards. You cannot recover what's lost even if the remainder of the equipment is near the limit of technology.
That's cool that you went and visited the designer himself. I am very much enjoying my time with his tonearm design, with my jan allaerts and lenco. My experience with it has been similar as with the allaerts. They are sensitive and can sound superb when used they way they were designed to be used. Veer slightly away from that little window and the magic disappears.
I heard/saw in person my first sp10 mk2 yesterday. It was in a birchply only plinth with a sme 312 arm and a denon 103. I lowered the arm onto the record without the platter spinning and tapped on the plinth. It was a ringy plinth and probably didn't do justice to what the sp10 is more capable of. The rest of the system was tonally starved so i think i still have no real idea of what is or isn't possible with this table or how it compares with my tweaked lenco 78. I would be curious if it could be more musical to me in the context of the rest of my system.
The gentleman confided in me after about a 3 hour visit that he preferred his linn table. I tried to encourage him to give the sp10 another chance and that i was skeptical that he was hearing it in ideal conditions. Though i told him there is a possibility he still might prefer his linn even though the sp10 were in a good plinth.
I did the best i could with the poor listening conditions and just tried to hear through to at least hear how speed stable it was. It sounded very speed stable to me.
I guess for some audiophiles they put a high importance on speed stability. I know the sp10 is a very speed stable/accurate table, VERY! speed stable but i wonder how it does in other parameters in regard to the way we humans enjoy music.
With my lenco , in regard to speed accuracy ,as long as i don't detect something annoying or distracting, i never really think twice about its speed. I don't think twice about wether or not it is 0.001 or 0.02 accurate. Now i have a nice systemdek iX table that is belt driven that does suffer from audible problems. Like sax and piano decay sound unnatural, to the point that it detracts from the musical engagement. Interestingly on song tracks i might push the speed bar up (on the lenco) a bit because i prefer the song a bit faster. As long as whatever the speed is, does not go up and down in short frames of time so it is noticeable (and it doesn't) i don't think twice. So, for me, i don't really feel the need for a special outboard speed box. I have explored the idea of incorporating a variac so that i can find a zone where my motor creates less noise but that's about it. I do consider my system revealing enough to hear and appreciate speed accuracy, by the way.
I have a question for anyone. I am trying to understand how replacing capacitors on a POWER SUPPLY can SUBSTANTIALLY improve what finally comes through the speakers. That is, if you test the speed with a stock power supply and it reads 100 percent accurate then upgrade the power supply caps, re test and it reads , still, 100 percent accurate how can miniscule electrical value changes equal profound sonic changes? To my mind if its spinning at 33.33 before the cap upgrade and 33.33 after how can it be so important that it be so accurate to so many decimal points behind the first zero? At least from a musical perspective once the music has started?
My understanding is that gross or subtle speed inaccuracy will blur or even lose details of the music and soundstage so i don't knock those who see value in pursuing great speed accuracy and that's fine but i would like to say that to this audiophile a players tonal color and shadings, and expressiveness is even more important.
My guess is that the answer i will receive is that while a stock power supply is very accurate it is not AS accurate as a upgraded one. So we are talking about degrees here.
While i can easily understand how cap replacement in amps and preamps which are in the SIGNAL PATH can have a profound difference i guess i am a little bit skeptical about the degree to which a power supply cap replacement which purpose is to "only" spin the platter at 33.33 can really have a profound effect.
Can impeccable speed in a turntable effect its tonal colors? In my opinion very little. I would say that the materials the table is made of plays a large part in that.(and their quantities and qualities) and the table design approach. This will, in my opinion play a larger part on fundamentally whether or not you will like a table.
For example, the sonic difference between a sp10 2 and a 3 i would attribute to the 3's much heavier platter, its different materials, the mat, and power supply NOT so much to their differences in speed accuracy, which must be relatively miniscule. Their fundamental design approach is virtually identical so tonally it will sound very similar.
I'm wondering which Stillpoint's spikes should I use for my Technics SP-10 panzerholz plinth. I'm looking for something that will allow me to adjust the height a little bit.
Albert. You are absolutely right. The P3a is a great tt - although not on the level of the SX-777FV it easily holds it own against the top direct drive tt´s available today. I was lucky to have had both (P3a and SX-777FV) and must say that most of the great ideas of Micro and Pioneer (Exclusive) and Denon tt´s are just copied today by several manufacturers but not executed very well.
Frank, perfectly spoken. I'm pleased you are experiencing world class performance.
The Pioneer P3, Technics SP10 MK2 and MK3 and Micro Seiki all reflect the mind set of an era when the brightest minds in Japan engineering were investing every resource on perfecting analog reproduction.
Hi Albert. Thanks to this thread I have started - and recently finished my Micro Seiki SX-777FV project and must say: the revised plinith, motor, air-pump and power supply make a former world class table a state of the art device. The top designs of the 80`s do have SO much potential !! Can´t understand why they are so often overlooked. Enjoy !!
I offer the plinths on my web site and may run ads at Audiogon once I catch up. The Panzerholz for the original two plinths were left over from an Exxon project with an art director I do studio photography for.
The performance of the Technics MK2 and plinth caused me to sell my Walker and invest in my first MK3. The MK3 performance was the inspiration for the plinth featured here, I wanted a statement piece to replace the Walker in both performance and beauty.
The most difficult part was materials sourced from Europe. The factory has minimum orders, requires money up front and after completion comes the staggering freight bill for three quarters of a ton of LARGE sheets shipped from Germany.
The first run of plinths will be ready this month, I have several spoken for. I have three MK3 Technics, two go in my system, the third is sold and waiting for completion of power supply and bearing rebuild and finish on the Ebony plinth.
The $1000.00 price I quoted is not me, that was my cost including round trip shipping MK3 chassis, copper platter and power supply, all parts and labor with Bill. If you know someone who can perform equal quality for less money, I would go for it.
Just the caps replaced without bearing service, servo work new high speed diodes and rectifiers the price would be much less. My goal was to make my MK3 better than when it was new, I will own this forever and don't want problems.
Bill has the talent to build a MK3 power supply from scratch but the price would be extremely high. I can ask about that but it would probably be cheaper to buy a MK3 with supply and pay to have it put right and not reinvent the wheel.
I'm confused by your comments on the Garrard and Reed, are you saying you sold them and looking for something else or bought them to replace your Kuzma?
As for the Ortofon, I have one ordered but they are slow coming. I hope to have both MK3 and four tonearms and four cartridges running in weeks to come. This includes a new arm from Germany that I'm playing with and some experiments with a Vibraplane I just bought.
I, Albert, on the other hand, would be interested in finding someone who could take the schematic of a Mk3 power supply/controller and make a new one from scratch (I would take care of the box).
albertporter on All Out Assault