This is a project that's been on going since the days of my Lenco experiments. My Lenco project is posted as a virtual system here at Audiogon too.
My Technics SP10 MK2 in custom African Wenge plinth is posted in my main system and this Technics SP10 MK3 in Panzerholz and Ebony Plinth was completed November 20th, 2008.
More images to follow, including the Ebony custom platform it will rest on. The platform is 9 layer construction including a layer of Texas Instruments shield with active ground plane.
Thanks Albert, I agree that at this level, the tables sound more alike than different as long as the arm and cart match well. The FerriShield underlay platter (I assume it is a like a platter mat?) sounds like a great idea. I have used a copper sheet on the P3 and that improves things quite a bit, but I had thought of it as being a materials interface issue rather than a shield. Perhaps it serves as both. I will have a closer listen.
T_bone, thanks for the links. These older direct drive tables were at the top of the analog game about the time CD came in and took over. It's a shame that everyone stopped dead in their tracks thinking a new era was upon us.
I think it's funny that this many years later we are discussing the merits of these superb products. Truth is, it probably does not matter if a P3A or MK3 Technics as long as you get on board and choose the right arm and cartridge.
The only technical difference that could make a difference in RF and EMI, the P3a looks to be aluminum construction and the Technics MK3 is copper.
When I rebuilt my MK2 Technics I decided to build an underlay platter from Texas Instruments FerriShield. The night we added it to the MK2 (aluminum platter) was one that still is brought up in discussions by my audio group as an important improvement.
Albert, I have not noticed an RF/EMI issue with my Exclusive P3. Given how it is put together, adding a foil/etc screen to the inside of the wooden plinth covering would be easy. I do not know much about the plinth construction of the big Onkyo (PX-100M if that is what you are referring to). The Denon DP-100M should be similarly easy to add an RF/EMI screen to.
The real problem with both the P3a and the Denon DP-100M is that they are rare. They are rarer, in my opinion, than the SP-10Mk3 (though perhaps that's just me). They are also not any cheaper than SP-10Mk3s.
I have yet to find a definitive list of the differences between the P3 and P3a. I am inclined to think that at least part of the difference was that when the P3 came out in 1979, the SP-10Mk2 was top of the price heap, but when the SP-10Mk3 (especially in SL-1000Mk3 or Mk3D format) came out in 1982 (and the -D in 1983), the price was comparable to the P3, which meant "improvements" and a model change to a new P3a was in order to maintain its place as top-price flagship DD player.
Japanese websites speak of differences in the arm, the power cord, etc (note that some websites think the power cord change was one for the worse), and some change to wiring material. Pics of the innards of the P3 and P3a show that there are no real differences in construction, which means the changes made there are probably in materials interfaces, construction of the springs, and perhaps also a quieter arm. The whole thing is 5% heavier, but who knows where that comes from...
Based on the pics and what I have seen on mine, I can easily think of mods which might improve it: 1) RF/EMI shielding 2) an IEC jack and separate power cord 3) changes to caps/diodes/etc in PS 4) replacing the base which the springs are mounted on to a hardwood or hardwood+alumina sandwich rather than particle-board shown (in the P3a at least). 5) replacing the 'footer base' with real footers 6) improving tonearm wiring? and/or running it from cart leads to phono stage inputs (or if not, improving the jacks).
I've looked for those for about a year. I've always wondered how they would perform against the MK3.
The MK3 after power supply rebuild is incredible, bigger upgrade over MK2 than MK2 over Walker. The problem is EVERYTHING must be replaced inside, all caps, diodes, rectifiers and some chips. Cost is about $1000.00 by the time you get through and that does not include power cable and (if required) isolation transformer.
I've read the Pioneer and Onkyo both lack RF and EMI screening and can effect cartridge and wire going to phono stage. I would be very interested in feedback from you on this.
Albert: that sounds very impressiv. You should have a very close look at the Exclusive P3a - it is said to be the best direct dirive tt alongside the Denon DP-100M ever. Should you start an Exclusive P3a project, please drop me a note - I´m going to buy one very soon..
Frank, I replaced the Walker Black Diamond with my Wenge Plinth Technics MK2 before I even heard a MK3.
The MK2 started as a fun project, an evolution of my testing that began with the Lenco project in 2004.
After I completed the Wenge plinth MK2, my group of listeners and I went back and forth between it and the Walker for many months with a variety of cables and cartridges.
The final decision was with identical Air Tight PC-1 cartridges (one on loan to me from Lloyd Walker). Everyone agreed the MK2 was superior, so I sold the Walker and began my search for a MK3.
After all the listening everyone in my group bought a Technics MK2 or MK3, replacing VPI TNT, Kuzma Stabi XL, and two Walker Proscenium Black Diamond rigs.
I could do that, provided I could find MK3 Technics. I offer several plinth for Technics MK2 and MK3 and also for Garrard 301, 401 and Thorens TD 124. I'm working on a separate web site to display all of these so people can consider them if interested.
I'm always on the lookout for Technics but the MK3 comes up very seldom. It took me several years to acquire the two I own and I'm still getting them upgraded electrically to where they need to be.
The outboard electronics for the Technics, by themselves, cost as much as I have put into the C37 to date.
Exactly why mine is still stock. Technics is wonderful for the $800.00 I paid but the upgrade is brutal. I always factor in cost of equipment versus software. With over 6000 LPs I can justify several turntables but with maybe a couple of hundred tapes I have to weigh tape machine investment carefully.
The multi head A810 was quoted around $2500.00 if I remember correctly, but that was several years ago. It was a Canadian Ebay seller, a company that had a lot of them for sale back then.
I have not heard an ATR-102 yet myself. The multi-head A810 sounds interesting. What would that cost?
Regarding the bass performance of pro decks, most, it is true, are lumpy at 30ips, but smooth out and sound fantastic at 15ips, albeit with a few dB more noise, only an issue on large symphonic works, or if added to the noise of a multi-track at mixdown. 1/4" 2-track at 15ips can be very quiet, dynamic, and have a very wide and flat frequency response.
The outboard electronics for the Technics, by themselves, cost as much as I have put into the C37 to date.
Good data and intriguing, up to the place were you describe needing another tape deck for quarter track. My tape library is split between quarter and half track, actually a few more in quarter track. Many of my most important tapes are half track, making for a difficult situation.
I think there is a guy in Canada that does the Studer A810 with a multi head conversion, allowing it to perform like my Technics. The Technics is actually quite accurate in speed, including amazingly low flutter measurements but lacks the sophistication of best (pro) electronics.
Many people just choose the Technics and pay for outboard electronics to bring it up. I've also read the only pro tape machine with accurate bass is the Ampex ATR, but unfortunately I have not had the pleasure of hearing one.
Short of a C37, which is very hard to find, I would look at the Studer B67, or A810. Similar machines, different vintage, and smaller than the concurrent A80 or A820 (respectively,) which are very fine machines if you have the space. The A810 is newer, has more computer control and is transformerless, the B67 is older, simpler and has transformer coupled ins and outs (I personally think the B67 sounds better.) The advantage to a Studer is the installed base; they are still in use in thousands of recording studios, so parts and service are readily available. I bought my B67 in the Netherlands for 800 Euros.
Other machines exist that are excellent (AEG/Telefunken, Philips Pro, Ampex, Otari, MCI/Sony, Presto,) but keeping them running would be harder.
None of the above have a fourth head, save the Presto (which I have an example of awaiting restoration,) so another deck for 1/4 track tapes would be neccesary
Another possibility is the Revox PR99 (I used to have one,) which is the pro version of a B77. It came in a playback only version for radio stations.
Be careful however, many of these machines are quite worn out.
Still another possibility is a Nagra IV-S, or Stellavox SM-8. Both have adapters to handle 10 1/2" reels, sound fantastic (Jazz at the Pawnshop was recorded on a pair of Nagra IV-S's,) and are very compact and well built. Again, parts and service are available, if pricey.
To take this back to the vinyl topic, another of my many projects is a Westrex/Commonwealth 12D/4 idler drive turntable, which seems closer to the EMT than the Garrard in construction quality. We'll see what kind of performance I can extract from it.
What I wish for is a pro level machine, tube or transistor that accommodates quarter and half track at all speeds, regardless if it records or not.
I bought the 1520 because it plays quarter and half, records half, has both EQ's and runs all but 30 IPS. With it, I can grab hard to find prerecorded tapes at Ebay, play studio safety's and the tape project by just flipping switches.
If you know of something that would fill my need and perform better than what I have but also be reliable, I would like to learn about it.
I suppose, if you build a home system like Mile Lavigne, but prefer tubes, it might be considered suitable for home use, but it is designed to be a studio master machine. That being said, any input that can accommodate +4dBu 600 ohm balanced lines (pro, I believe the Allnic L-4000 has such inputs) should be fine. Adapters or transformers can be used for -10dBV single-ended (consumer) inputs. It is 1/4" CCIR 2-trk, so it is already set up for Tape Project tapes.
I don't have many tapes to play on it, as I purchased and restored it to make recordings, not necessarily to play them back at home, but that's a fun perk. Nothing exceeds like excess.
It was a working day there, so the only music to be heard were the projects being mastered that day, nothing interesting really. But we were free to have a wide ranging discussion of all things music and audio. I learned a great deal. As I said, I spent the most time with his chief technician, who has a bio here:
In other news; my Studer C37 is nearing completion. I plan to make recordings with it using an all tube chain. Perhaps sometime when it and I are free we can visit Chez Porter.
I visited Bernie Grundman Mastering yesterday. You might be interested to know that both his Scully Lathes have Technics SP-10 mk. III motors; the lathe platter being connected by a torque tube to the SP-10 mk. III platter. Both have custom electronics: one tube, the other solid state (a "use a transistor, go to jail, it's the law" sticker with the RCA tube-head illustration affixed to the former. Custom tube electronics are to be found on the preview equipped Studer A80, also. A fantastic, and enlightening visit, spent most of the time in the shop talking to Beno May, his chief technician.
$900 for an ST-20 is too much in my opinion. I would take the
I use an ST-10, and a 700g Japanese one made by a company called Jeweltone, which had a thing for 'crystal' (they made a crystal record mat which works quite well actually). It says it is a 'Crystal Stabilizer' but I think it is at least 3 materials, two of them being acrylic and gunmetal. It came on a TT I bought, and I kind of like it so I use it. Ditto with the ST-10. I like the ST-10 and I can get them cheaper than I can usually find the newly made recreations, so I buy them from time to time. They are better than most of what I have come across (I have used the Orsonic, and a few other lighter ones, but I always come back to the ST-10) though I certainly have not heard everything out there.
I expect the TT weight I would most like to have is one an example of Thom Mackris' old stainless steel "Anvil" that he is not selling any more.
The ST-10 is gunmetal anodized black, the ST-20 is gunmetal and polished (or possibly copper-coated). The ST-20 (have pics if you want) has a nipple on the top to accept the Micro strobe, and a wider base. It is not any heavier than the ST-10. I have seen someone sell a copy of an ST-10 on Audiogon made of stainless steel which actually looks like a cross between and ST-10 and an ST-20. The real ST-20s these days go for entirely too much money. FWIW, many Micro afficionados who get tables with gunmetal platters eventually look for stainless steel plattered versions.
