No SET tube amp in the future?

muralman1 August 13, 2009 19:38

Hi Muralman1,
well I am no great expert but I am told a cascode (Cascade to cathode) is a 2 stage amp with a transconductance stage followed by a current buffer which means it has high input/output isolation ( there is no direct coupling from the output to the input). It has high input and output impedance (10k ohms) with high gain and high bandwidth (10hz-75khz).

The general problem with this type of amp is that they tend not to be very powerful although very stable. Obviously in this case this is no problem as I doubt I am even using 0.4 watts which is pure class A. But it will pump out 38 watts into 8 ohms class A/B. 38 watts on the trio would be like the space shuttle taking off.

Dont get me wrong when I said its details are not obvious. The amp is very detailed. Shockingly so in fact. It is just very natural and does not draw attention to it. It is slightly more rounded, but not soft. In some ways it feels more powerful than the BCs! It is very musical. The modified BCs hold all information up to the light to be seen, where as the Avantgarde Model 3 lets the light shine down leaving the shadows to fall naturally. Make sense?

I have to say this amp is way up there. It has some valve type color though very modern sounding and forgiving without the draw backs. A lovely piece of kit.

chadeffect August 13, 2009 16:43

Hi Chad, I am glad you are having fun, and I am even more glad, I get to read about it. Please tell us more what a cascade class A amp is.

Henry Ho started out making sublime class A amps. I remember them as being what you describe. I prefer the lively sound of the H2O, and it's more detailed information.

muralman1 August 13, 2009 13:34

A new Model anyone?

I have been lucky enough to be lent an Avantgarde Model 3 amplifier to try on my Avantgarde Trios. It is the start of my journey looking for more suitable amplification than my modified Bel cantos to drive the Trio. I must mention however just how well the BCs work with the Trio, but a little over kill I guess for a 110db speaker. I can hear a few audiophiles coughing! I was surprised too. They are a left over from my planar days. But as I have said before a good amp is a good amp!

The Model 3 is built specially to drive these high sensitivity speakers and drive them it certainly does. This amp is a cascode type staying in class A in my case for most of the time. It sounds sublime and is beautifully built. Its presentation is very smooth and musical. It seems to be as quiet and transparent as the BCs although the specs may not lead you to think so. The remote control is simple with a volume up/down and mute button. It is of very solid construction. If I stuck it down my pants I would get a lot of work in the porn industry.

It is early days so I wont say too much now, but I can see that I will have a problem having gotten so used to the huge sound of the BCs on the Trio.

The BCs have incredible grip and world class bass with crystaline detail to spare. The mods have given the BCs more sweetness, naturalness in the highs, flow and musicality, something the Model 3 also does beautifully.

The Model 3 also has great grip with a slightly fatter or forward midband, but with a fraction less deep bass weight and not quite the plummeting detailed bass control of the BC. Dont get me wrong the Model 3 does bass, lovely warm and deep bass, it is just a little more related to a controlled 6550s bass. Not a bad thing.

The Model 3 does make music very easily though, and easy the music sounds too, even if the extreme details are not rendered as obviously as the BC. It is fluid with a touch of syrup , clean, clear, warm and modern sounding. A joy to use.

chadeffect August 12, 2009 19:45

Hi Mapman,

Music CDs are ripped with read until right and stored on my hifi computer and/or transfered from other systems via firewire or USB drives/keys. I have been known to use my phone to pass data via bluetooth. Mainly small wavs or Jpegs.

My hifi computer takes its data from both its internal drive and external drives connected directly to it. One drive has music, the other film. The rest of the house gets its data from a network drive set up via my router, or copies of parts of my library on my laptop etc. Nothing too fancy.

Some data is passed via LAN and the rest via wireless. My better half still prefers to watch films on optical disk so the system is not being pushed too hard yet.

chadeffect August 03, 2009 00:44

How do you get music onto the NAS?
Are you using a wired or wireless connection for that?

For those data volumes, I think wired is much faster and more reliable.

mapman August 01, 2009 14:35

Hi Mapman,
computers in general are heaven and hell! When they work it is great, when they dont it is a lonely time consuming headache. Luckily these days they are a little more sorted out than back in the day (windows 98 agggg!)

I have set up a system where I have music and film on a computer (mac) for my hifi, and then a 2TB network drive for the rest of the house on the router to be able to listen to music and watch films in any room. An ipod touch is a remote if needed, but the hifi computer is next to the hot seat and is very easy to flick through the library. It is a little tight for the Firewire/USB cables as I need around 6m for it to reach the hifi and 5m seems to be the limit before using powered extensions.

I have macs and PCs all on the same network, so I have the best of both worlds. I learned a longtime ago to back up all the time and have a budget for harddrives. I never had a drive go down in many years of very heavy use until I had 3 drives die in 2 weeks and I lost a lot of information and the music for a project I was in the middle of. A very low feeling indeed. Especially when drives are so cheap.

chadeffect August 01, 2009 09:58

computers and audio are match made in heaven or hell, dEpending on perspective.

i'm blogging from an opera browser on dell pda, the same gadget i use wirelessly to select music of my server to play via roku soundbridge on my system. very cool. sounds fantastic.

on the flip side, i dropped the laptop i was using as music server the other week. i did not keep a backup of the files i lost. that was not cool. i learned a lesson there. now i added a nas device i use for backup.

mapman August 01, 2009 01:32

I have started the 1st phase of moving to a fully computer based system. This is mainly due to a friend of mine whose Hifi is at a crossroads and is on the search for a great new set up and he renewed my resolve to get back on the horse. I dont want to change anything other than my source. But as the computer world crashes the audiophile world anything is possible!

I have hovered for about 6 years waiting... It still feels like computers in highend systems are at a fetal stage generally. Although I have been using true computer based pro recording equipment for at least 12 years. I find it strange that no one really made it into the audiophile market. I guess a lot of it due to the dull analogue vs digital debate and an aging market with heads in the sand. Meanwhile all the kids got used to millions of compressed songs on their computers, ipods and phones for free...

I have come up against all sorts of oddness with sample rates or files not being fully supported in world where my work equipment just knows what to do and just works(mostly!). No manual switching or confusion. Then the new audiophile monkey on the back, the USB or firewire debate.

In my work world nearly all the A to D and D to A gear is firewire. Now is this because firewire sounds better? I doubt it. I think it is more to do with the fact that most computers at the time in recording studios were Macs which all used firewire 400. Nothing too fancy or audiophile just good solid tools for the job.

I have spent the last week transferring files and ripping 100s of disks from my CD collection. I have 3 Terra bytes of music of which nearly 1 Terra byte is redbook 16bit 44.1k. The rest is high bandwidth multitrack recordings and masters from years of work.

I have arranged for various boxes to arrive (weiss/bel canto/DCS). I will post my findings as I get through listening to each properly.

One thing I can say for the computer based system so far is just how much more music I have ended up listening to. It is a real freedom. Now does it sound better or worse or the same? The answer is yes, all of the above.

chadeffect July 31, 2009 21:16

Again, you are referencing your grazzled Duettas. The natural Scintillas are quite the different speaker. On my system, there is no frequency that draws your attention for bad or good. They are all inter-synced. The music is wonderfully natural right to the highest pitched tweety bird.

With that, I think I ought to bow out of this discussion. We don't have any idea what each other are listening to. We just have to respect each other's reports.

muralman1 July 23, 2009 20:21

Vince,
It seems you are dealing with that very delicate system synergy. Mess with it at your peril!

On your originals, and not to labor the point but just as a general comment, I think you will find the spragues against something like the mundorf will be quite grainy and less pure or natural sounding. Tails of notes and spacial cues will die away into silence rather than noise, grunge or grain.

The Spragues are not bad especially considering their age. There is a likable forgiving "fuzz" or "glow" about them. Again I wouldnt change anything, just add a bypass and see. Leave it in for a few weeks and if it sounds bad just unsolder it and you are back to normal. I doubt you will go back though.

I am sure there are many on the gon who will buy mundorf silver/gold in oil, or silver in oil 0.1mf caps from you. Especially if you leave the lead out wires uncut. They are very useful as a simple and effective tweak.

chadeffect July 23, 2009 11:52

Ah Chad, I believe you were sweeping system glitches out. My system doesn't need that. The DAC I have proves the Spragues are not a problem.

muralman1 July 22, 2009 18:48

Hi Vince,
indeed! Funny you should mention it. I was close to doing one wall with a slightly more modern version of a Bradbury and Bradbury type print. I thought better of it.

I would say 400 hours probably is still not enough run in. In mine they just got better and better. But if you have the old crossover you could well be hearing the limit of the spragues or something else. So difficult to know.

I am very aware of the amount of caps in yours. I am also aware of how difficult it is to fit decent replacement caps of such large values, let alone the high cost. Keep the spragues and spend the money on bypass caps I would say is your best option.

In the end I found it easier to build external crossovers which helped in vibration control, and gave more freedom to choose caps and coils.

It is unfortunate the capacitance is so large in Apogees, but you can cut costs and not lose too much performance. Use an ok cap to get you close to the value needed, then use good quality ones to bypass. You get 80% of the sound from the bypass.

If you did go for a top of the range mundorf cap (or whatever) as bypasses ( say 0.1mf for the mid/tweeter) it would cost around $100 for the pair and probably much less for the silver version which is nice and way better than what was originally in there. They will fit in under the cover if the crossover is original.

While $100 is a $100 I doubt you could get anything better for the cash in such a speaker. You would not need to go to the hassle of an external crossover etc. If you could stretch to it, bypass with the same bypass cap on the bass panel too. It is striking how it helps integrate the crossover point.

What you will get in return is more layering and timbre detail, less grain and the Apogee will sound even more refined.

chadeffect July 22, 2009 11:45

Hi Chad,

Your room could use some Bradbury and Bradbury traditional wallpaper. Your horns make the room look like the, "Lonely Hearts Club Band."

Do you know how many caps are in the Scintilla crossover? They are expensive too. Using Aure caps the cost would to 3k. Really, the sound is so real now, I just am not interested.

You know I had those speakers broken in for at least 400 hours as they do TV duty, as well as music. They sounded Ok with cable. They were quite lively. With my source, though, they wore army boots. They were fighting the flow of the music. My speakers wear dancer shoes. It really is in the ribbon. The structure and density of the new ones make them more emphatic. I don't want that. Graz did. My amps do that on the more neutral Apogee ribbons. That is, if the music calls for balls.

You would just have to hear it for yourself.

muralman1 July 21, 2009 22:23

Hi Vince,
I guess if it aint broke dont fix it. I am unclear as to exactly what you are hearing with the new speaker, but I assume you have found some synergy with your old speakers.

I dont know the Obligatto caps other than they are cheap and gold in color, but I am sure you could do better. Try using the cheap caps to make up the biggest values and use nice ones to bypass. A nice 0.1 mf Mundorf silver/gold in oil over the tweeters will liven things up. If only the duelund VSF caps were a possibility in an Apogee... I would hate to see the bill. I did look into it with my Duettas. Ouch!

chadeffect July 21, 2009 20:32

Changing all the caps, wiring, and resistors would not have made the difference. What I am hearing now with my original Scintillas is everything I could ask for. Yes, that is with the Spragues, and Monster wire. I will change both of those in time to Obligatto and ribbons. That will give my system an incremental change for the positive, like painting a house, as I have already laid down a musical mansion for that.

muralman1 July 21, 2009 14:37

Vince,

what was the situation with the cross over in the new speaker? ie Which caps/resistors/coils/wiring? Are you still using the Sprague originals?

chadeffect July 21, 2009 11:01

Oh, how I wish that would be the case. I would have had to tenderized the ribbons with a hammer to get them to articulate like the originals.

muralman1 July 17, 2009 22:15

Hi Vince,
I am sorry to hear you didnt get on with the new speaker. I am sure there are several reasons for this and probably relatively easy to sort out if you had the mind to. Also dont forget those ribbons take forever to settle and for the midband to warm up. The Divas sounded very odd for some time. Bright and thin. A combination of the new ribbons and new mundorf caps This was less of a problem with the duettas although they still took a while. You are lucky to have another set ready to go!

I would love for you to come over and enjoy some Avantegard Trio, wine and food. My knowledge of speaker placement and system set up has been pushed to the limit with these. It has been worth the effort though. Every small movement solves/creates another one. But once a good position is found they are as fine as anything I have heard, but with a directness which is uncanny.

People complain about Avantegard subs, but they are very good. just placement is hard which is not made any easier by the stupid markings on the back which make the cut off freq very hard to set with confidence. I guess the Bass horn solves all that! Luckily for my wallet they would not fit in my listening room.

chadeffect July 17, 2009 08:26

Hi Chad, warming up for a big audio party here. This is with my old speakers. The new ones were a bad marriage. I tell you what, though, those horns are a system builder's dream child. I wish I were there. What fun it would be.

Vince

muralman1 July 16, 2009 00:35

Still finding myself messing around with the Trio placement. Well not really the Trio so much as the subs.

I have found a good place for the subs where they seem to aline themselves better with the Trio. I have never used a sub whos cut off comes up as high in frequency as these before, so placement feels even more tricky.

I finally have put the subs on spiked platforms and I seem to have found what I was looking for. The upper frequency of the sub seems to support and blend so much better than I have heard them before. Much more uniform and more planar like. The soundstage is, dare I say, even more holographic. And that is saying something.

What a speaker, but boy do you have to work to make them sing. I am still driving them with the Bel canto monos too!

chadeffect July 15, 2009 23:40

System edited: Finally added some power regeneration. Now that the PS audio is powerful enough and quiet enough, I felt it was time. I had the old 300w version many years ago and it was ok but it could not power what I was using at the time. The new PPP is a different story. A nice solution from a clever and forward thinking company.

chadeffect June 20, 2009 18:49

Hi Esotheric,

Haha. I guess the symposium platform helps the bathroom scales to be more in tolerance. Always good to know just how heavy your butt is! Your house is like an audiophiles Aladins cave. If only you could be bothered to plug some of it in.

I cant wait to hear those new AGs of yours. I have my new external Trio crossover nearly ready to go. The new VD power chords for the subs are on a plane as I write. Surely we are nearly done now?

Lets give those valves one last chance. I know how you feel about them, but now we are well over 100db/watt, surely we can get the best out of the those antiques we call valve amps? I did ask that guy about the first watt too. We have all the digital and ss amps we could want dont we? And the Halcro DM on its way back home too! Now all we have to do is clear the diary and get on with some mammoth listening sessions.

chadeffect June 13, 2009 17:39

the AG never needed a tube amp , its the tube amp that needs the ag ......... still looking at a dismantled audio consulting modified duo in my living room ... mate millions of bits of gear scattered around the house ,millions .... in fact a have just seen a symposium vibartion platform under the scale in the bathroom , handy Alice ,always there to put things in order

esotheric June 12, 2009 20:23

Hi Mapman and Muralman1,

I too was of the same opinion. If I had not tried this combination, I would be saying the BCs are too much for this speaker. I would use phrases like too high a damping factor blah blah...

Something better or better synergy will always be just around the corner. I am just starting that journey. But if this is not close to synergy god help me!

The Trio does present an awkward impedance curve so I am told, and needs more power than you would think, 3 watts instead of 2! Lol. I have seen some big amps on them in the past.

The few amps I have tried so far (all ss) have given me some insight into the speakers abilities. They are striking in their transparency. Any change of electronics is ruthlessly portrayed. Not just as a slight shift of timbre or frequency tilt or soundstage change, but in a 3 dimensional character within which the above are just parts. Does that make sense? I dont think I can explain it more clearly.

I was thinking about the First watt amps. I know a guy who does Wavac and I was thinking about trying them, although I am not convinced a Wavac 300b type would be quiet enough (or cheap enough!). The thought of messing in the murky world of valves again does bore me although I bet there would be some reward.

To be honest I am that close to going back to the Halcro DM series. The Halcro DM38 would be sublime I am sure. Still powerful, but nothing the Trio cannot handle. I am trying to think of valve amps worth trying. There must be many.

My slight fear with the DM series Halcro with the DCS direct in, is it could be a little too much of a good thing. I would probably need some kind of preamp to "blurr the edges". I guess I will just have to experiment. But at the risk of repeating myself, I cannot fault the sound. The resolution is striking and is fluid, musical and deeply involving. Bass stops on a dime.

Maybe I have reached the end of the road? Maybe I should just start looking for that hard drive server? A computer/dac combo or the PS audio PW or...oh no!

chadeffect May 30, 2009 10:29