Hi Mapman and Muralman1,

I too was of the same opinion. If I had not tried this combination, I would be saying the BCs are too much for this speaker. I would use phrases like too high a damping factor blah blah...

Something better or better synergy will always be just around the corner. I am just starting that journey. But if this is not close to synergy god help me!

The Trio does present an awkward impedance curve so I am told, and needs more power than you would think, 3 watts instead of 2! Lol. I have seen some big amps on them in the past.

The few amps I have tried so far (all ss) have given me some insight into the speakers abilities. They are striking in their transparency. Any change of electronics is ruthlessly portrayed. Not just as a slight shift of timbre or frequency tilt or soundstage change, but in a 3 dimensional character within which the above are just parts. Does that make sense? I dont think I can explain it more clearly.

I was thinking about the First watt amps. I know a guy who does Wavac and I was thinking about trying them, although I am not convinced a Wavac 300b type would be quiet enough (or cheap enough!). The thought of messing in the murky world of valves again does bore me although I bet there would be some reward.

To be honest I am that close to going back to the Halcro DM series. The Halcro DM38 would be sublime I am sure. Still powerful, but nothing the Trio cannot handle. I am trying to think of valve amps worth trying. There must be many.

My slight fear with the DM series Halcro with the DCS direct in, is it could be a little too much of a good thing. I would probably need some kind of preamp to "blurr the edges". I guess I will just have to experiment. But at the risk of repeating myself, I cannot fault the sound. The resolution is striking and is fluid, musical and deeply involving. Bass stops on a dime.

Maybe I have reached the end of the road? Maybe I should just start looking for that hard drive server? A computer/dac combo or the PS audio PW or...oh no!

chadeffect May 30, 2009 10:29

My gut is to agree with Muralman.

Going lower power with the right amp would probably result $$ per $$ in better amplification for sensitive horns like those where it matters. The power available has to be somewhat superfluous for these.

The horns are opposite end of the load and power consumption spectrum from the Apogees. There has to be a better amp available for those speaks for the same cost, so my gut feel is that you have some upside there for perhaps little or no additional cost.

mapman May 28, 2009 15:21

Hi Chad, the Bel Canto is really too much of an amp for horns. I don't know where to point you to a better arrangement. Just a guess, but a sparkling clean tube amp, or Nelson Pass's First Watt might be worth looking into.

muralman1 May 28, 2009 15:00

Well I have finally got the Trios set up to my liking. What a speaker system it is. It has a spirit and soul.

I have struggled a little to balance it. The subs settings are a giant key into its evenness.

Being a planar man for many years I expect a speaker to be seamless and transparent. Top to bottom. Walk in soundstage, with naturalness and flow.

To begin with the Trio was anything but seamless, although I knew it was capable. Now I can hand on heart say, after some set up time and run in, they are every bit as natural, seamless and transparent as anything I have owned or heard,but with a giant magnifying glass added into every area.

If there are any people out there with Goto drivers and high sensitivity set ups reading this, although I am only dealing with 110db/watt plastic speakers(!), I must bow to you for following the true path. There is no going back. It is obvious to me now. I can only imagine what a high sensitivity tweeter that costs 30k and weighs more than my subs can do. I am struck by the capabilities of my Avantgarde Trio. The Trio is like an electrostatic speaker that can do very high SPLs with plummeting bass and dynamic freedom with palpability way beyond hifi.

Yes I am still running them with the modified Bel canto monos. Something that seems so wrong (a hugely powerful amp driving ultra sensitive speakers) with just one listen you know is so right. Some of the finest sound I have heard. Ok on some cheap recordings you could say it is forward, but anything well recorded is sublime and alive. I was thinking about some flea power amp...I dont think I will bother.

chadeffect May 23, 2009 00:26

Hi Geir,
I use a pro firewire cable at the moment which is silver with ferrite rings at each end as filters and is used with protools recording systems. It made a worth while difference. The sound became cleaner and soundstage became more focused. There is also the Acrolink/Esoteric 8N-6p-6pi but is more expensive and difficult to find.

DCS say the Siltech is the best but extremely expensive. There is another one which is cheap and good which I believe is made in Poland. I cant remember the name of it off the top of my head, but it is meant to be the best value for money at the moment. Virtual dynamics were talking of making one but as far as I know it is not out yet.

In my experience the firewire cable makes a difference but you would be better off making sure all the other cables/power conditioning in the system are the best you can find first.

Hope this helps. I have tried to search for that Polish or eastern european firewire cable but could not find it. Try contacting DCS they would know it.

chadeffect April 13, 2009 23:28

Hi,

I have just recently purchased a dCS scarlatti stack myself (replaced verdi-purcell-verona-elgar+), wonder if you have any experience with any firewire cable except from the stock ones.
Any reccomodation?

kind regards
Geir
Norway

gfe April 09, 2009 20:03

Yes, the room is everything when it comes to bass performance. In my symmetrical room, the bass is every bit natural, the same system, but in Rich Murry's open structure house (one of Graz's installers) the bass is way over done.

muralman1 March 12, 2009 03:50

Off axis is not quite so percussive and you loose some layering/depth. The deep bass is slightly less full but I think thats more about the room.

chadeffect March 11, 2009 20:23

Hi Mauralman1,

yes it is quite a challenge to get that last bit of performance out of a good speaker.

I spoke to Avantgarde and they were very helpful. So I know a little more about what I am chasing and how to achieve it. All the observations I have been making are typical they say.

Off axis listening is quite difficult to do in this room, but as much as I can there is little change. Sat in the hot seat is very good though.

chadeffect March 10, 2009 20:38

"settings are very important, and sensitive..."

Isn't that the nature of the Trios? And they say positioning Scintillas requires centimeter adjustments for lock in.

How are the horns for off axis listening?

muralman1 March 10, 2009 15:19

Hi guys,
after lots of fiddling it would seem that the subwoofer settings are very important and sensitive. Even more so than anything I have had before.

It has been a long time since I have used subs without any display, remote control or feedback, relying on just your ears over may tracks with vague markings on the difficult to access back. I do have some frequency sweeps and test tones which I must dig out.

The lower the subs volume, the more the top end opens up. Seems obvious but the interaction is not subtle.

When I first set the Trios up, the subs were set to a very high output which seemed to choke the rest of the sound. It would seem I still have them set a bit high.

I had unos years ago, but these subs seem to act differently. I dont remember having to set the volume quite as low. The cut off frequency is fine its the output that is harder to judge in this room. Especially without a remote control to use at the listening position.

It is early days I guess and I have forgotten how long it can take to get the set up right, especially when my other speaker systems had been set up so perfectly and my high expectations.

chadeffect March 10, 2009 09:26

What is capable and woman friendly? Bose mini cubes behind a Ficus.

I think we are similar because of the boy inside. We love to play!

My wife never speaks negatively about my system building. She also says she can't hear the difference. That doesn't bother me, because she has been saying that all along from the start with the Target Stores music system.

muralman1 March 10, 2009 02:13

Many speaks take a while to break in and open up fully. Not sure if this is the case with the Trios, but that might be part of it.

Part of it can be your ears adjusting to the different sound as well.

mapman March 10, 2009 02:09

Hi Mapman,
I am looking into it, as I am not completely sure what could be causing it. I dont feel its the room size. While my room is not enormous, its just within the Trios smaller limits.

Muralman1,

I have to say when my better half arrived home after the Trios were delivered and they were half put together in the listening room, she said "you are ****ing joking?"

But what I have learned is you have to respect someones passion. Because without it you are dead. As a man, you have to keep part of the boy alive otherwise you become castrated and ultimately unattractive too.

I am lucky, she seems to understand it although there is a dislike for my interest in hifi, although she is a music lover and enjoys pumping up the volume. I cannot wait for her to pump up the volume on the Trio. She will get a surprise...Tinitus!

She hated the Apogees looks too but loved their sound. What other speaker is there that is capable and woman friendly?

chadeffect March 10, 2009 01:18

My wife took one look at your horns, and asked, "Could he be married?"

muralman1 March 09, 2009 18:31

"Texture" is often enhanced or limited by speaker interaction with room acoustics. I've found that speakers often need room to "breathe" in order for this aspect to play out well.

That could be tricky with the much larger Trios compared to smaller designs in tight quarters with little room to "breathe".

mapman March 09, 2009 15:44

As things settle down I think it is wise to say where I feel the Avantgarde Trio has trouble when compared with the grazzed and modified Apogees.

For sure the Trio is not as extended in the highs although some recordings do seem to be extended while others do not. These same recordings on the Apogee all have air, texture and sweetness regardless.

The bass of the Trio while very impressive does lack that very last bit of texture. This could be due to my set up at the moment as I am not driving the subs from the same capable amp.

I will try to address the set up of the Trio more as they are so sensitive to any changes of equipment.

Again it may be good to say that the cross overs in my Apogees have the finest parts in while the Avantgarde is standard and uses competent components, maybe not SOTA ones.

chadeffect March 09, 2009 15:02

Hi Muralman1,

I have made the space for them, lets put it that way! They dont look too bad do they?

Sound wise ultimately it will be a giant leap when I have got them how I would like. The hard work auditioning parts for the Apogees will need to be done again for the Trios, although I have a feeling the Mundorf silver gold in oils or the Duelands caps will be the way forward.

Mapman, I promise to keep an eye on the volume. Of course you guys are more than welcome to swing by for a drink and a bite to eat and enjoy some audiophillia. Divas for starters trios for main?

chadeffect March 07, 2009 18:19

You had room for these? I am very happy for you. Good thing you went with the Trio, giving you full range.

It is both funny, and disappointing the systems I most want to hear are thousands of miles away.

muralman1 March 07, 2009 17:26

Sounds like you've breached some interesting new territory.

Enjoy! Watch those eardrums though!

mapman March 07, 2009 14:48

Ok I promised to report back my initial findings moving from the latest grazed and fully pimped out Apogee Divas and Duetta sigs to Avantgarde Trios, so here we go...

Digital front end is a DCS full stack with Analysis plus golden Oval linking the amps with Virtual dynamics speaker cables. All electricity is cleaned and is separated using Oyaide XXX sockets and Oyaide plugs. The Avantgarde active subs have their own conditioning via a Shunyata Hydra.

Due to the issues with a bridged amp and Avantgarde active subs, I have not been able to use the Bel canto ref 1000s full range. So I have been using the Bel canto to run the tweeters/midrange/mid bass horns.

I am sure most would think I am mad to run an ultra sensitive (110db/watt) speaker with such a beast of an amp. I can only report the most glorious, fluid and compelling listen. It is giving me utterly crystaline and natural audio with a deep 3D soundstage. The type I have only heard from the finest TT and valve amps at 4am in the morning, but without any of the drawbacks. The Apogee is capable of this too, but this kind of effortlessness is not available from any other type of speaker system I know. And yes I do include giant Wilsons etc. Raw power, as I have tried, can bring speakers to life, but when the speaker is already alive you realize that power on its own is a hopeless battle.

I can only describe the Trio as a magnifying glass on a system. More like the Hubble telescope, able to show distant galaxies previously unseen rather than the type used to read the small print opt out clauses in insurance policies.

Every last detail is rendered with ease. It has the detail and honesty of my beautiful Apogees which I love, but with a dynamic ease and weight which has to be heard to be believed. The Trio can carry a musical message with spooky palpability. The speed and control is up there with great electrostatics but without the lightness or slight thinness and dynamic compression the bred can have ( I do mean the ML CLX too!). My Apogees were a different bred in this regard once I had them modified, nothing like the original, so much more alive and precise. They are a stunning speaker, but still the Trio manages to make even these fabulous Apogees sound slightly chocked or flat. I do feel the modified Diva and duetta sigs are sublime and sound remarkably similar to the Trio in many ways. You just cannot get that contrast, but you can get close with a 1000w...

Vocals on the Trio are presented with enormous weight and palpability. In fact everything has enormous palpability!

This may sound like they batter you to death, but it isnt hard or tiring to listen to. Quite the opposite.

Each recording leaves you changed, from Miles Davis effortless trumpet solos where you can feel his breath and spit, to Kraft Werks minimum maximum with its relentless and percussive bass synths etched as they modulate and sweep filters with clever tempo sync'd reverbs and delays. The inner workings of the recording are made obvious but still as a musical whole.

After a few set up problems and the unwieldy VD speaker cable, my feeling is just like the big Apogees, the Avantgarde Trio is a classic and a truly great audiophile device.

Mods will be done in time. The x over replaced with better parts and I will address the subs amps. I think Ice power will take them to a new level.

chadeffect March 07, 2009 10:15

Hi Mapman,
As promised some pics. I will add more as I get things sorted out.

I am not using the Bel cantos at the moment. I am using a 40 watt Orpheus amp on the Trios. Very nice.

I am still setting the Trios up as I have not had time to experiment yet. With luck a good friend of mine is bringing a Dm38 Halcro which will be used for a while. My system is not set up properly and has been in pieces for a bit, but what is plugged in is sounding ok. I know once I have things set up a little better it will be awesome. I have a steep learning curve with the Trio I feel...

chadeffect March 05, 2009 21:58

Wow!

Have you calculated what DB level you can reach now with those horns and the Bel Cantos?

Watch your ears! They cannot be replaced or upgraded!

mapman March 05, 2009 21:48

System edited: installing the trios...I thought I would try high sensitivity after many years of tough loads

chadeffect March 05, 2009 21:40

hopefully I will get a chance to take some at the weekend.

chadeffect February 13, 2009 00:27