Hi Duomike,

rock and roll! It is one of the joys of a good horn. Incredibly easy to hit high SPLs with no stress or compression or strain.

I have a db meter and there is no problem hitting 100db. Sometimes you dont even notice how loud it is until you try to speak.

I have yet to bring my volume up into the low 10s or closer to 0 (fully open), Anywhere near 20 on the volume read out (in the 2v output setting) is very loud and reasonable head banging or gig level.

Remember the speaker is 110db/watt. Obviously there is a fall off with distance, but I sit quite close. 4 meters or so.

Depending on the recording level of the material you can gain or loose some power. I have headroom though. Not forgetting 500w of active sub.

So far I have not noticed any issues sonically when pushed, and as I said I had all sorts of amp on the Trio, from 2 watts up to 1000 (Well 1000w @ 4ohms). I hand on heart can say the power was of little or no consequence, but the presentation was another ball game.

My buddy has a Duo with Welbourne Labs 45 monos and I have never heard him complain about SPL, far from it. He ran all sorts of SS amps, including the AG ones too.

It is said 85db and above is dangerous and causes damage to the ear. Sustained 100db pretty bad. Although it sounds good!

I have spent much time standing next to drum kits and giant rigs and I am still here, although why does every recording have ringing bells on it... even when it has finished playing?!

I would suggest trying to borrow a 45 based amp and see how you get on (make sure you use a modern tube).

I had the type of sound you get from your millenium for years. I did all those kind of amps. Halcro etc. I had amazing sound. But I hate to say with the 45 something was just right. I am sure there are a few of you who have seen my threads attacking the rubbish aspects of tube amps and tube preamps I have had. They were mainly huge amps with many tubes. But here I am with a bloody 2 watt SET! I was really anti tube and I still am. I just cant deny the quality of the 45 on high sensitivity.

I would like to have one or 2 aspects of that SS or digital sound back, but not at the expense of what I have. So far the Yammy is the Goldilocks amp that was just right over all.

chadeffect December 15, 2010 11:37

Hi Duomike,

I am not even sure it is about being rated up or down
power wise. I don't even think the EML 45 tube is like the hybrid tubes
which can output more power. I am fairly sure the most it can output is 2watts.

When I was looking for a 45 based amp I spoke with Avantgarde as a few
People did mention the Trio is tough to drive even with it's very high sensitivity. All I can say is in my set up it was no issue.

Obviously it is a tube amp so when compared directly with some solid state it lacks some of the bone crunching speed and grip. I loved all that, but then there was all the other stuff the 45 did really well...so here I am
with the 45 driving Trios. Some of the finest organic sound I have heard.

I listen to every sort of music. Orchestral through to rock, electronic and jazz. The last thing on mind is more power.

chadeffect December 13, 2010 16:43

Hi guys,
In my experience with AG and after trying just about
every type of amplification, the 45 at all volumes sounds as
powerful as any of the amps I have tried. The only amp that really did sound almost too big was an AN 16 watt push pull 300b mono amp. But I put most of that sound down to the fat 300b tube. Not so much
down to power.

Let's put it this way, I still have a 45 based amp and all the
others have gone! With the EML 45 in place the sound is extremely good.

If I had a complaint after having SS and Class D for a number of years &
Living with an SET I wouldn't mind having no warm up time and maybe a pinch lower noise. Having said that the Yamamoto is very clean & even more so since the mods.

chadeffect December 11, 2010 10:06

Hi duomike

To be honest I went from 1,000 watts to at most 2.with the original tubes it could sometimes sound tame when compared to some of the 300b amps I tried, but when I put in the eml 45 any trace of lameness went away. I have no issues so far with power.I listen at all levels from late night to headbanging levels. The room is of medium size. The smaller end of what is meant for is trio

chadeffect December 10, 2010 22:41

After some time with the new EML 80 rectifier tube in my A08s, I guess I can report a little on it.

It is a large tube. The same size as the EML45 with the same lovely gold plated pins and black base. When in use the mesh burns a beautiful sunset orange. Lights out please when listening.

I had no idea what to expect. I have never used a mesh plated rectifier before let alone a brand new one. While it is an improvement, I would not say a massive change, but for those chasing that last ounce of improvement (like me!) worth doing and important.

Sonically there was a removal of grain and an extra beauty and natural sweetness to the sound with the EML80.

My old rectifier NOS tube by comparison was still good but with less timbre detail,a slight metallic ringing to instruments, and subtly more murky presentation. It was also a little more withdrawn tonally, like a light phasing where instruments were and not quite as obvious or solid in the soundstage.

With the EML80 back in place everything was cleaned up, more fully formed and more refined. Very nice. It is tough to take it out again. Once you have one I doubt you will be able to go back.

chadeffect December 09, 2010 15:32

Hi Vince,

indeed it would be nice to be able to listen. As you know you are always welcome if you find yourself my way.

I have got rid of all my DCS gear now. I feel a little naked without all those pretty boxes, but I replaced it with the new Weiss DAC. It is an amazing single half sized box DAC. I am sure you understand it would have to be amazing to replace the DCS. Let me say I do not miss the DCS which speaks volumes.

I am not up sampling, although the Weiss has filters which work at some high frequency and bit rate as does the volume control.

I hope your health returns to you soon.

chadeffect December 06, 2010 15:33

Hi Jason,

the 45 seems to power my speakers with no issues and with that X factor. The sound is awesome. Very musical, transparent and natural.

The point I was making to Duomike was that if you compare the amps I mentioned to an SET, both approaches could do with a little of each others sound IMHO. Newer tube amps have become closer sonically to SS. I just want my cake and eat it.

Again before we all go crazy, it is only a small percentage in presentation, but in a world where you start listening to the quality of the electrical sockets and fuses, you know how it goes.

I would like to try a J2, the F3 you mentioned, and even the M2 sometime in the future. I have a feeling there is a middle ground. I hate the "hair shirt" of tubes but I ended up using them again anyway.

Wouldnt it be great to have a 45 "sound" with an efficient powerful solidstate amp? No retubing costs. Surely someone has worked out a way to do it, or get close to it sonically?

chadeffect December 06, 2010 15:01

Hi Duomike,

I understand. It would be an upheaval and probably a great expense to change.

As much as possible I have always had the equipment next to each other so I could do a direct comparison. It is the only way to see where I was going sonically with a bit of reading peoples general impressions to narrow down the options.

There is something with the uber clean, but brilliant amps I have had (Halcro DM38/Tom Evans Linear A/Belcanto Ref 1000s/Jeff Rowland 501/Lyngdorf TDAI 2200/Orpheus Labs/ to name a few) where you fall in love with the complete silence and clarity. The Tom Evans had the cleanest midband I have heard.

When I put these amps side by side with something like the Yamamoto with the Emission Labs 45 tube, I found some greyness or lack of timbre complexity compared to the Yamamoto. I dont mean the tube just had a fat midband or midbass, and it is only a slight thing in its rendering, but somehow important.

I dont understand whether it is an artifact of distortion in the tube amp, (I rate the 45 tube as the most transparent tube I have heard) or just that kind of linear amp manages to capture something.

I find it heard to believe that amps like the Halcro and Tom Evans are capable of such superb detail and focus with ultra low distortion and not be able to render timbre complexities in the same way.

Anyway I ended up with the Yamamoto! I would stop using a tube amp in a second if I could find a solidstate amp that did both these things. I have a feeling the J2 or one of the newer 1st Watts is capable. No one had one for me to try out at the time. The Tom Evans was very close to the perfect balance though. Good job it didnt sound how it looked.

chadeffect December 05, 2010 13:36

Hi duomike,

Sounds great too I remember. At the time I needed more power.
My only fear with those amps like some of the switching amps after SET ones is that slight bLeaching of tone. I love everything else about them but I needed a change after some years with uber clean. That's why my next non tube amp will probably be a J2.
We shall see.

chadeffect December 05, 2010 01:43

Hi Vince,

nice to hear from you. I liked the 47 lab gear. Neat and sounded good.

If I were you I would just move to computer set up and shoot digits into your DAC. Find a nice interface... The end.

I had change left over when I sold my transport and moved to a fully computer based set up. I like to think I had one of the finest transports on the planet at the time...

The computer destroyed it with Amarra and firewire into the DAC. Spinning a CD live is over.

I assumed all that inventiveness by one of the worlds finest highend manufactures would have been able to take data retrival to its limit. I was wrong. A relatively cheap computer and a nice interface for less than a 1/5th of the price of the transport killed it. I guess technology just marches on and on and on.

chadeffect December 03, 2010 20:45

Hi Duomike,

I hear you and your 2 cents is easily cashed. I think a little of the audiophile or audiophool sickness is reawakening.

I only just got back to a nice simple set up and I am already discussing a bunch of new kit! In fact my system is now so simple I should probably remove myself from the "All out assault" section on the Gon.

And yes I had almost forgotten about all those extra cables and platforms. I cannot complain.

The Tact was a bit of a pain to use. The Lyngdorf was simple. I remember it sounding very clear with fine balance, but sterile somehow. The version I had EQ'd the bass a little too dry for me on the presets.

I am sure any minute there will be one that removes that last whiff of digititus and works they we expect. Most of the new digital equipment I have used recently whether domestic or pro has really started to sound excellent. Especially in the price/performance. For the price of a couple of Duelund caps you could get a nice DAC.

I did not know you used the Millenium. I nearly bought a Mrk3 about 2 years ago. Which version of it do you have? I seem to remember there were a few updates making it better and a few mods by someone in the UK. They look cool too.

My Yamamoto makes me feel I should be smoking a pipe with my slippers on when I look at it. Maybe some kind of old Austin parked outside (or Japanese equivalent). Very old school. Sounds good though.

chadeffect December 03, 2010 18:29

HI Duomike,

I have always wondered about the placement of the Basshorn. Something that large does start to become an issue to place.

I guess maybe the easiest way would be to use a digital crossover and multi amp the whole thing. Then you could delay and adjust phase,EQ etc to your hearts content while sitting in the listening position.

I am sure there must be some very good ones out there now. I have tried a few, but not on the Trio.

Now that I have returned to Tube amps and SET such thoughts become troublesome. But multiple ICE power modules the size of your hand, running cool, all in a rack with a digital crossover/room correction attached would be cheap(ish) and simple. I bet it would sound very impressive. My old Bel cantos sounded pretty awesome on the Trio. Better than many.

Maybe I will try it with some First watt J2s or something when the Emmission Labs tubes get tired. The problem would be finding a high quality Crossover/room correction device. Maybe I could find a Lyngdorf RP1 put some nice bits inside. I think the only issue with that box is limited outs.

chadeffect December 03, 2010 13:58

Sounds real audio,

she bought them for me as a leaving present. No, but we all enjoy the AG Trio.

chadeffect December 02, 2010 19:16

Hi Duomike,

again time got the better of me, but any day now I will move the subs.

Regarding the 231 I have not heard them yet. I did see someone in germany using the short basshorn G2 as a sub for Trios. This seems like a good idea if space is a little tight. But I do dream of the basshorn.

I should be moving in a year or so, so I will make sure my listening room is big enough to fit them. At the moment the room is not really big enough without some major upheaval to fit the the full basshorn in.

chadeffect December 02, 2010 19:13

Hi Duo Mike,

My feeling and experience with bypass caps is that it is a little like cooking. Some ingredients go well together and compliment each other, while some do not. I know what you mean with bypassing of certain caps. But I have also had magic...

I ran out of time to play with the subs last night, hopefully I will have time tonight. But I will let you know.

When I first got the Trios I did a lot of playing with placement, but it was building on a shifting sands at the time with many pieces of kit all running in.

I have very nice sound at the moment. I cannot imagine changing speaker ever. Famous last words... but this time I mean it!

chadeffect November 30, 2010 19:51

Hi Duomike,

holy cow, I had forgotten how expensive the V-caps are! I priced them up today.

It does put me very close to duelund caps in there. I found when I put in duelunds before they were a little disappointing to begin with. Then after a while I was drawn to something organic and unforced when compared to the already good Mundorf silver/gold in oil. Impressive in their unimpressiveness!

I will play around with the placement of the subs tonight.

Any reason why you dont like bypasses in the cross over?

chadeffect November 29, 2010 20:04

Duomike,

thanks again for the information.

The cap upgrade is a little confusing because I know each update of the AG range they changed the caps to better quality ones. If your friend had an original duo, I know for a fact they did not use the top of the range mundorfs then (probably Mundorf supremes). So the difference would have been massive to him. Probably much less with a new one that would have the Silver/gold in oils dont you think?

I will give the Vcap a go. Maybe best to try a bypass first to see what it does. I think the largest cap is a 4uf although there is a cap across the mid horn which may be larger.

I have not tried the Vcap myself, but I have tried many including Mundorf silver in oil, Silver/gold in oils, Duelund copper VSF and many many more.

I liked mundorf metals in oils, with the Silver/gold in oil being best and the silver in oil being very good value for money. The duelund is excellent too, but with a huge price increase.

It is funny you mention sand, as I have a bag sitting in my hall way, I just have not got around to filling the stands with it yet. The Harmonix feet are said to be good. But very expensive. I was thinking of having Townshend platforms made which are said to be very good.

Regarding the time alinement I guess you could easily put a strip of metal which the tweeter could attach to with its existing holes, and then have the strip of metal bolted to the AG frame with the holes drilled to the right measurments for the alignment. A similar approach could work with the midband although probably more difficult to attach than the tweeter.

I had a friend with Duos who suspended the horns from the ceiling and got rid of the frame all together. He laid the subs on their side. He was able to put the midrange in a better position for his seating arrangement. He felt it was a great improvement.

chadeffect November 28, 2010 15:43

Duomike,

thank you for your post. Very interesting. I just post some things I hope people will find interesting or helpful, but I never know if anyone bothers to read them. So it is very nice to hear from you.

I am embarking on a new external crossover for the Trios. To be honest I had not thought of changing the Mundorf silver/gold/in oils caps that are already in there. I do like the Mundorfs.

I was going to tri wire the crossover and solder direct to the drivers with some kind of nice cable. I was about to get anal and try and energized cables like a nice Audioquest or Synergistic research internally. I tried one and it was very good.

I was also going to replace the binding posts which would be the input for the crossover with cardas ones because I use spades on my speaker cables and I prefer the way they clamp onto the spade.

I have read a fair bit about the sonics of the various binding posts, but I want a secure connection as much as the slight benefit of the sound of binding post. I use Virtual dynamics speaker cables at the moment and they are a pain to keep in place due to size and stiffness.

I thought the trio was already time aligned so I will look into that. I spent some time with digital room correction and found some interesting gains. Ultimately I ended up back with evil tube in the shape of an SET.

I am fascinated by the removal of the midrange back. What benefits did you find?

chadeffect November 27, 2010 19:53

System edited: Well I have traded in my DCS stack. I have not used a CD or SACD in so long due to a shift to a computer based set up. So it was time to rethink everything. While my DCS sounded fantastic, it meant I could simplify my system. Always a good thing in my experience. I tried out the new Weiss DAC and it sounded so similar to what I had, and slightly better in some areas, that by the time I sold everything including all that extra cabling needed for the DCS stack, it made it possible to get better sound by reinvesting the left overs in other areas. So enter my tricked out Yamamoto A08s all silver rewired, with Duelund VSF and Mundorf Silver/gold in oil caps and Mundorf Tube cap. Tubes are Emission Lab 45 mesh plates and an Emission Lab No 80 mesh rectifier tube. The sonics are extremely good. Very natural and open. The kind of system where thoughts of equipment are long forgotten. The system has been up and running for a couple of months now and seems to be run in, after many months of trying all sorts of equipment out. I am very happy with the changes. The Weiss DAC is exceptional. The modifications to the Yamamoto have dug out the finest detail placing a wide soundstage in front of me with super bass texture, clarity and weight. I will up load new pictures over the next few days.

chadeffect November 27, 2010 12:19

Hi Mapman,

there is a part of me that really doesnt want to think about how much these updates were. But the tubes alone must be $700. The caps slightly less maybe.

People say the original A08s keeps head with $10,000 amps. I would agree and even more $. This amp sounds better than the original. The word "better" is vague, but I can clarify. But lets just say more refined, wider, cleaner, more coherent...

I have no idea what I could find that would sound this good on the Trio. I have tried many. So if you add it up it is still cheap for a fine tube amp, and for tube amps I am done. The 45 tube is king if you have the sensitivity.

chadeffect October 22, 2010 23:20

The icing on the cake for the A08s arrived today. The new Emission Labs No80 rectifier tube.

If the sound of this modified Yamamoto A08s wasnt fast enough or clean enough (and it was), this tube has pushed it even more that way. Crystal clear.

I didnt know what to expect. But it seems to have removed some haze and widened the midband again.

I will let it burn in and settle with all the other bits before commenting any further. Oh it glows nicely too. I will upload a picture soon.

chadeffect October 22, 2010 16:05

As the Duelunds have burned in I have found some of the thickness in their tone has given way to a perception of depth and weight. Very nice caps. Probably the best caps I have ever used. Very natural.

chadeffect October 22, 2010 11:22

And in went the Duelund coupling caps into the A08s.

I have been very happy with the work done so far on this great little amp. Each change has brought improved dynamics, better and cleaner textures, clarity, sound staging and all round just better and more refined. I believe I have retained all that made the amp great in the first place, just brought them out a little more.

I left until last the coupling caps. This was the only cap that could possibly be replaced with a duelund. With space for larger value caps at premium in other areas in the circuit it made it impossible to fit duelunds there. Here was my only chance. Besides my pockets are not that deep!

The duelund as a coupling cap has brought a wonderful solidity to the sound. There is so much harmonic texture and naturalness. I love the mundorf silver in oil and the mundorf silver/gold in oil caps, but this Duelund VSF copper leans more towards a laid back detail than the more in your face detail of the mundorf. Now when I say laid back I dont mean dull or boring. Far from it. They make music believable.

All of the caps I mentioned are great and you would not be disappointed with any of them. But if you are really anal and your taste is for an impressive and hugely involving listen maybe mundorf is your king. If you are really anal and your taste is for a solid and believable presentation with all details naturally present then get your cash out for the duelunds!

To be honest the combination of all these caps have balanced out really well and I believe I have the best of both worlds offered by mundorf and Duelund in the space provided.

chadeffect October 20, 2010 19:23

Hi mapman,
it depends really. Having been in studios most of my life I am no stranger to a soldering iron. I also have a good network of tech guys and some experience with certain circuits.

If I am messing around with equipment that is under warranty I do tend to be in close contact with the manufacturer. I dont tend to get into removing chips or really invasive work on boards unless really clear.

That kind of work is best left to guys that just do that. Some manufacturers are very helpful and some are not. DCS for example are especially not up for experimentation, and do not seem to believe in such hocus pocus. But something like these little tube amps are so simple. There is nothing in them! Probably why they sound so good.

chadeffect October 18, 2010 19:21

I must say these mundorf M-lytic AG caps are really amazing, and considering how massive mundorf caps can be, these are still quite small and able to fit where you would like as direct replacements.

I have replaced the DC heater caps in the A08s with them. They were a little bright to begin with, but the extra brightness which gave the impression of more detail, soon opened up down below too. This making for a very open and transparent cap. Not dissimilar to the effect of adding a Silver in oil or a silver gold in oil mundorf cap. Although I would love to see a Silver/gold in oil 10,000uf cap! Any guesses at what the price would be and how many people it would take to lift it?!

chadeffect October 18, 2010 18:10

To add to the confusion enter the Weiss DAC 202... It is good, but how good?

It is a little more up front than the DCS in some ways. Better? I cannot say it is better (yet). It is impressive. But the DCS renders space better for my taste so far.

Lets not go crazy though. I need to let the system settle as there have been a number of changes and each needs to burn in and normalize before we start looking for possible giant killers. I rate the DCS Scarlatti as one of the finest on the planet with the Elgar plus not too far behind it. I would however love to have a single half size box do what my current mulitbox DCS does. Can dreams come true?

chadeffect October 13, 2010 00:15

I thought I would replace the obvious electrolytic caps in the A08s. I went for the mundorf Tube cap (Which is huge) and the M'lytic AG versions which were slightly easier to fit. I will let them settle and see how they sound.

chadeffect October 11, 2010 18:01

Hi Mapman,

I think as I have got closer to the sound I was searching for, and after trying all sorts of options, I got a better sense of what was possible in this particular set up.

It struck me that this little 45 amp could indeed have some of the uber clarity of something like the Linear A from Tom Evans, or that mind numbing resolution from Halcro, but retaining its strengths.

It was pretty close anyway with the new tubes. So adding or replacing the odd cap really did open things up and was simple to do. While I am using fairly expensive caps, its cost is nothing if you compare it to finding an amp of that level. These are always the most satisfying tweaks. Cheap ones!

chadeffect October 02, 2010 09:34

I could not resist seeing if there was any more performance to be squeezed out of my beloved little Yamamoto A08s. So for a while now I have been auditioning component parts in various places in the circuit.

I like the sound of the Yamamoto so I felt the best way to preserve the sound was to experimentwith the caps first. So methodically I added a bypass cap to see what could be gained or lost. If there was something I liked I would try a "better" cap in that position, if they would fit!

Well this little journey has proved fruitful. If you know this amp, you know it makes music, and is very transparent, quiet and articulate. All I can say is with a few cap alterations it is even more so. The added bonus in my set up was wider soundstaging more solid imaging and spooky detail retrieval. You know that kind of imaging where you feel the mouth move as the vocalist sings, hovering just in front of you with a body. Not just the mouth.

In the recording studio this is done with a great compressor (and obviously great mike like a neumann) on the vocal track which brings out the best sense of intimacy by holding the vocal track in place allowing all the nuances through without squashing it too much.

I am not saying the A08s is compressing anything, quite the reverse. It is that kind of retrieval that brings a recording to life. The vitality of this amp is so addictive. I use EML 45 mesh plate tubes which have so much texture and timbre color compared to the 45 tubes I have tried.

The addition of some Mundorf Silver in oil and Mundorf Silver/gold in oil caps have brought that sense out even more. Amazing delicacy and top to bottom naturalness with more defined layering. I could not fit the Dulend VSF 400v copper caps in which is a shame. But I guess as my Avantgarde Trios have Mundorf Silver/gold in oil caps in the crossover, maybe there is some synergy there too.

chadeffect September 30, 2010 16:52

Hi Mapman and Muralman,

I guess the DCS suits my needs for now. It is very fine sounding kit. I am wondering about changing my digital front end soon. It is too expensive to hold onto for too long.

It is a fact that technology moves so fast. Especially digital tech. I will try the new Weiss and see how it compares to SOTA of a few years ago. Worst case I will just hold on to the DCS until it becomes completely obsolete.

My rule of thumb is that the value of such digital kit halves in 3 years and the new kit at half the price sounds as good as the SOTA old kit did. I think you have to balance the reality of this. Having said that DCS is a hard act to follow unless you just want "different".

Muralman I hope your injury gets better real soon, and without too much discomfort. It must be very depressing not being able move as normal. Just remember even the best super heroes suffered but always overcame. Recharge yourself with a good dose of scintilla.

chadeffect July 02, 2010 23:22

Hi Vince,

thanks for the info.

A few people (who have not heard my system) have told me to turn off the upsampling.

I have found when I removed the upsampler and went direct into the DAC for 44.1/16bit playback, it sounded worse. I felt I had lost some important information,dynamics and air. I would even go as far to say the DAC sounds more "digital" without the upsampler.

I have done the A/B tests and DSD upsampling has remarkable warmth and focus leaving untouched 16 bit 44.1 sounding lifeless and a little flat.

It is easy for me to switch between the 2 settings. I have gone to a lot of effort with cabling and power there. It must be the first time in my experience of Hifi where putting something extra in the signal path helps!

Regarding the Apogee I liked my Duetta sigs. As you know I had all new ribbons, external Xovers with mundorf silver/gold in oil caps/Alphacore foil inductors, all silver wired. I had it with twin subs too. I found the Duettas better than the Diva I did with all the same mods and new passive xover.

I could never get the Diva to stop sounding vague. The best apogee I have heard is probably Grazs Synergy (His remake of the scintilla but with much higher sensitivity).

To be honest the Trio kills them all in every respect. The effortless dynamics and clarity leave everything I have heard sounding distant. I had some issues to begin with in integrating the Trios subs. Ribbons are a hard act to follow, but with some work the Trios active subs became more invisible. I am actually having some work done on them soon too. So what this space.

The remarkable freedom of amp technology and power output to drive them has been a joy. I have gone from 1000watts to 1 watt.

My speaker cable length is 3m/channel.

chadeffect July 02, 2010 19:08

Hi Acresverde and Jason,

with regard to the Trio and impedance spike in the tweeter, I assumed this was why Avantgarde added the CDC system to the crossover.

I was under the impression this eased the way the amp saw the impedance plot, stopping some amps sounding bright on the Trio and making it compatible with a wider range of amplifiers.

chadeffect June 27, 2010 09:37

HI Jason,
I am using the Avantgarde active subs. Not the Bass horn. The Yamamoto is driving Tweeter/mid/mid bass horns. The active bass takes the speaker level feed from the amp. The same way as the DUO and UNO speakers do. I think the subs are 500w a channel.

I am losing a little bite or impact around the mid bass horn/ sub (90hz or so), although the bass is very nice and deep with lots of texture.

In a way the more impact I had in the bottom before with 300b amps seems a bit hyped now. Luckily the trio has impact to spare. I am told there is a tweak for the A08s to give it more poise in the bottom registers.

But the sound is wide and effortless, so I dont feel the Yamamoto is struggling to drive the speaker. It is just a different presentation. A very addictive sound with the finest highs and mids I have had.

I was wondering about an OTL but was struggling to find one to try.

chadeffect June 26, 2010 13:34

System edited: The Yamamoto A08s pictured with the Emission Labs mesh plated 45 tube driving the Trio

chadeffect June 22, 2010 09:47

Hi Mapman,

there is something going on with some of the tube amps I have tried. Even if in theory they shouldnt be good.

I think I am in the world of having to give up something one way or another though. Either I get ease of use, no noise, less distortion, or or I get a sense of an event and insight into a performance but with some issues.

For all the reasons I went away from tube amps(although at the time very powerful ones), these simple small tube amps do offer something important. An emotional communication.

I have had the technical excellences and extremely fine sound from SS. My bar of measurement being the Halcro DM38/58. While they can make music lit and glorious so can the A08s. Ok the A08s has no power, but if you dont need it then thats a lot of amp. Maybe it doesnt quite have that very very last once of detail in the tails when compared to the Dm series. That is a "maybe" though!

Is my hope of finding the perfect amp a folly? Who knows what is next on the list? The red wine audio battery powered amp is meant to be good too. But it will not connect to my subs unless there is a fix for the electrical issues.

chadeffect June 17, 2010 15:58

Hi Mapman,
I saw Ralphs comments. I tried to find one of his amps to try. I was hoping not to find myself loving a hot set of amps that needed lots of space and a bucket load of tubes.

Unfortunately I do not use the AG active Bass horns,much as I would like to, but I use their active subs. I didnt have the extra $40k or the space.

I have tried all sorts on the Trio so far. Power has not seemed a major issue so far. I have had 500 watts down to 1.4 watts per channel amps.

The most powerful sounding amp was 16 watts! In fact the BC was quite polite and withdrawn by comparison. To be honest the 1.4 watts is kicking out some serious volume without any sign of strain. Maybe the bass is not as explosive as I have heard, but not bad and probably better tonally by any standard. It is a very refined amp.

Always best to try and use your ears I guess. I will let things settle for a while.

chadeffect June 16, 2010 16:28

The EML 45 mesh plate.

I plugged in the new mesh plated EML 45s. My first observation was just how fast it made the Yamamoto amp sound. Clean,fast,extended.

It has a very pure and rich timbre presentation. When I say rich I dont mean fat or thick. I mean natural colors with a hint of sweetness and beauty.

I wouldnt say it has the resonant gyt wrenching weight of a 300b like the KR way down deep in the bass. But on the Trio sometimes this could be overwhelming even if it was fun.

The 45 draws less attention to the thump part of bass drums on some rock or electronic recordings than the KR or even the audio note. Thats not to say it doesnt have dynamics or bass weight. It is just that its focus leans more to the midband and lower midband. Maybe it lacks some air in the bass or headroom compared to the 300b?

The KRs 300b bass could be on the etched side. I found the KR lost its way in the treble as did the audio note to a lesser degree. The KR 300b amp had a slight darkening like old Levinson kit used to have. The audio note 300b is more romantic and a greatly enjoyable listen.

The Yamamoto with the mesh plate is beautiful to listen to. Will 1.4 watts a channel be enough for me in the end? The speakers dont sound under powered. Maybe a little more air in the bass would be the only thing I could say I miss slightly. It could be a running in issue, or set up issue though.

Of all the amps I have tried so far it is way up there. It is lit like the Halcro. It is natural like the Halcro but with more soul.

chadeffect June 15, 2010 12:04

Hi Muralman1,

I saw that discussion on Horns. But "horn" is a very general term and includes all sorts of rubbish speakers under that mantle.

I have found on my travels that many people out there have usually missed the point and have homed in on one particular aspect or strength of their sound at home. I have heard some awful sounds from people who you would think would have it all sorted out.

I have never heard my Trio sound "honky". Quite the opposite. I did have some issues when I first got them with balance. But some time setting them up and common sense soon made them sing. Even more so with the introduction of a 45 tube amp.

Right now my system has the best sound I have ever had. I would even go as far to say that I have heard at all.

Rather than discussing horns we should discuss the speaker. ie A Trio or a whatever. It is far too general otherwise. It is another reason why there are so many confused audiophiles. I could make my system sound ordinary by changing just one thing in the chain. So you have to be real clear about what you are discussing or chasing or changing.

chadeffect June 10, 2010 17:49

Hi Jason,

a good friend of mine has just bought that amp for his Duo. We pretty much swap and play around with our kit, so I hope to have a blast of the Wavac soon.

I like the look of the Anniversary Globe 45 too. Very tempting as I have globe tubes for the rectifier. I am going for the Emission Lab mesh 45 though. I hope to receive it in the next few days.

I will let you know how I get on when it arrives and settles in.

chadeffect May 30, 2010 22:54

Hi Jason,

thanks for your post. I have found the 45 tube which came with the Yamamoto to be nice. I gave all the pins a good clean with deoxit. This made a quite a difference. The pins were quite dirty. The sound is very fine and more modern sounding now. I think I am becoming addicted.

I am missing some very slight inner detail as I have been used to uber detailed amps. But I am sure a new tube will bring that. I think it is worth the effort. It is so close.

This is the first 45 tube I have tried(also the 1st 45 tubed amp I have tried). But I am told this version of the tube is a little bass shy and rolled off in the highs compared to the Emission Labs version of the 45.

Which 300b amps do you think I should try out? I liked the Audio note very much.

chadeffect May 30, 2010 10:32

The Yamamoto A08s.

It is as lovely as people say. Quiet, sweet and transparent. Beautiful. There is something about it that makes you want to love it. It is cute and endearing. Female vocals are goose bump inducing. Instruments tingle with harmonics. I am not sure about the bass presentation yet, although it could be the tube. An Emission lab is on its way.(mesh and plate)

For a while I have been trying amps for the Trio. I must first say that there are many average amps out there. Especially in the tube world! I dont suffer the tube hair shirt easily. I do wonder what some of these guys listen to? They seem to focus on one thing and forget all the other things that are missing. Personally I want an amp to do everything. Is it too much to ask for?

I want low noise, transparency, dynamics, musicality, frequency extension, large soundstage and instrument size, with beauty in its communication. Most amps seem to do some but not all. Some do none. I wont name and shame. Also why are good tube so expensive? Surely once you have the design and parts its done isnt it? Not much gold in it. Surely the machines for manufacturing have existed for 50 years?

ICE power designers, start working on the next generation please. You are so close to getting it all right. Listen to a 45 and a 300b and include a touch of each into your presentation and your job will be done. Make it difficult for all the average amps to exist and stop them from confusing audiophiles that dont get out much.

Rant over.

Ps the Yamamoto is shockingly good.

chadeffect May 29, 2010 17:31

Mapman,

as usual you are completely right. A magnifying glass is exactly what the Trio is. Not only to the obvious things like transparency, soundstaging, dynamics, bass, treble etc, but to the character as a whole. It is an astonishing speaker. It amazes me regularly.

The beauty of many of the amps I have tried with the Trio has been a revelation to me. Unfortunately most have been limited to a specific beauty in a certain area. i.e Rich bass texture or midband texture or depth or emotional connection and flow. I hope to find one that does all of the above, or at least enough of all of the above!

I am told the 45 tube is it. I guess if you really wanted to you could have 2 different amps and swap depending on your mood. A 2 watt amp is not that expensive in the scheme of things... My plan is to find a good balance in one amplifier. If not maybe have one made specifically for my taste.

It has been great to have been able to try so many amps. I thank all those involved. I know you guys have been as keen as me to hear most of them. Some very late listening sessions! David if you are reading this, that 6am session must count as one of the longest and most eclectic.

chadeffect May 13, 2010 22:59

A quick departure from the 300b and 300BXLS and into the world of the 6C33C-B.

I will report back as I have changed a couple of things at the same time. I know, very unprofessional but the audiophile bug got to me. This 6C33C-B tube seems to be way more transparent than any 300b I have tried.

The mid band is so quick and full of harmonic texture as is the high frequency. It reminds me of the 1st time I ever heard an electrostatic speaker if you know what I mean?

The bass is less romantic than the 300b amps I have tried, but equally deep and tighter. It seems to take a little longer than any other tube I have tried to warm up and be at its best. Even though it gets hot as hell.

This little Japanese amp, which I think is 14 watts with its 6C33C-B really is alive and vital. A captivating listen with real bite. I am loving these low powered offerings.

I await the 45 tube... An Emission mesh no less too. Hopefully tomorrow.

Audiophillia is alive and well here.

chadeffect May 13, 2010 15:16

Gallant diva, ha ha I know. Call a doctor quick!

Well I did say I was getting down and dirty with amps for the Trio. No stone unturned. It has been very interesting. Since I need no power, it has opened all sorts of doors.

In the last weeks I have tried all sorts. Including Tom Evans Linear A ,or as we call it the "bread bin". A hybrid hybrid hybrid amp! It sounded like ICE power but with more harmonic information. No noise or distortion. Very good I must say. Not quite a Halcro but not far for much less money.

I have been in the world of the 300b (including the 300bxls tubes. A fabulous tube BTW). I am finding the 300b is not as transparent or extended as I am used to, although very musical. Yes I could live without some of the extension and transparency. The Audio note was glorious in its rolled off cloudy way. The KR audio was like a beautiful Krell.

For some time now and after some research I have started to look into the original great tubes. So in the next few days I will have a 45 based amp. I am told it is the finest tube. We shall see.

My surprise so far has been how quiet many of the tube amps have been. So yes you may find me moving back to the ways of the tube... again. Only this time single figures of power. 2 watts maybe 5.

chadeffect May 08, 2010 09:14

Yamamoto A08s with 45 tubes coming soon... Anyone have an opinion on which are good 45 tubes? I have read all sorts about the mesh plate. I was hoping to put Emission labs 45s in. Any thoughts?

chadeffect May 08, 2010 00:09

These KR audio amps are really something. The most dynamic I have ever heard. It has nice texture and makes no noise on my 110 db Trios.

The bass coming out of this 300b amp is stunning.

I had a little rock out with some radiohead (The bends) today on the KRs. It was striking in its energy and the amps showed no sign of strain or congestion even at very high SPL.

They may not be the most transparent amps I have ever heard but really they are alive with PRAT. With a look like these surely means Batman uses them too. Kinda cool.

chadeffect April 27, 2010 23:27

haha Mapman,

you are completely right of course. Although I must add that the BCs sounded exactly the same on the Trio as they did on the Apogee. I thought it would sound thin or bright. But it sounded the same just with the atributes of the horn. So I kept purring!

chadeffect April 26, 2010 12:38

Hi Mapman,

I am glad they worked out for you. The BCs are a no brainer, especially if you need power. I have had to try quite a few amps beat them all round.

Now that I have really started to look into amplifiers for the Trios, rather than a lucky coincidence the BCs worked, I am confronted with all the amps I would have laughed at just a few years. You know things like a 2 watt amp, or an 8 watt one with all sorts of bizarre tubes in.

The KR audio I have at the moment is a case in point. While it is a 300b, the sound is like nothing I have heard. It is so dynamic, so heavy in midband and bass weight that I am slightly in shock. I thought thats what a "big" amp would sound like! Of course 2 watts is plenty in my case, and the KRs Antares are a mind blowing 20 watts. For many I am sure the KR would be hopeless. But with this efficiency its great.

IMHO there are 2 places where the ICE power is weak sonically. Those 2 things took mighty amps like the Halcro DM to show up and are very high end audiophile details. I hate to think what the future evolution of these boards will sound like. Nothing stand still.

chadeffect April 25, 2010 20:39

300b tubes and the Trio? I have been getting down and dirty with amps for the Trio.

I have been using some 18 watt triode Audio Note monos. While there is some noise, something I am not used to, I found the Audio note to have so much music to offer that it is forgiven. The noise is only noticeable when there is nothing playing really. But I do feel like its 1937 or something with the hiss and slight buzzing.

While not as detailed a presentation as I am used to especially after ICE power and the fabulous Halcro DM38, somehow it is enough. I have always liked AN when I have heard them in the past. There is something very organic about them. On the Trio there is some magic with AN, and many hours of heightened listening containing gems of emotional connection. Damn that hiss!

There is a beautifully rich timbre and weight to the bass which even the Halcro could not produce. The AN leaves the Bel cantos sounded bleached out and a tad less involving.

Although the ultra low noise floor and width of the BCs does have a lot to offer in the mids and highs, there is a feeling that you are being robbed of something. The BCs massive damping factor ultimately sucking away timbre from the Trio. Zero or very low feedback is obviously the key here.

Now I am listening to the KR enterprises VA340, which has a much more modern approach to the 300b sonically than the AN. Almost solid state by comparison. No noise, extended and very dynamic. I will post more as time continues. I have yet to plug in some Alnic mono blocks which are said to be glorious too. What a feast.

I do feel my attention is now heading towards some boutique hand made Japanese flea power... The joy of high sensitivity speakers.

chadeffect April 25, 2010 13:10

Hi Mapman,

yes attention to detail. Obviously it is barely ticking over on the Trio, but it really has an ease and luxury about its sound/presentation. Very refined.

chadeffect April 06, 2010 23:06

Hi muarataltuev,

I am not using the clock anymore. I use the computer as "transport" these days and it is my only source. I use the Weiss firewire interface which means the computer is master clock.

The sound is excellent and the DCS is the best I have had it sound yet.

I am using the old upsampler to upsample 16 bit/44.1 files from the computer. Otherwise dual for higher sample rates direct into the DAC.

It has become extremely warm with analogue fluidity and a little more vibrant somehow.

chadeffect April 06, 2010 23:02

Hi muralman,

Halcro also make their own version of class d in their theater range. The DM series is another thing altogether.

They are said to have the finest specs in the world. The sound is so beautiful. Music is lit from the inside and seems to have a sunny air about it. Extremely natural and vibrant. Dare I say tube like in a way. Holographic. Leaving the BCs sounding hyped and etched.

The thing that I like most is the way it puts all that information together into a musical performance and flow with meaning. There is no thought of hifi.

Bruce Candy what a guy. Now can he make them cheap and small? Let everyone be able to have them. He would be doing the world a great service.

chadeffect March 30, 2010 22:38

It has taken an amp of Halcros quality to show exactly what the BC ref1000s cannot do.

As I know some of you are aware. I have been looking for some time for an amp to drive the Trio. I have tried quite a few now and each time there was always something I was missing when I removed the Ref 1000s.

But the Halcro has shown a cheapness and lack of tying up of strands that the BC suffers. Something you would probably not notice until you put them side by side.

What has surprised me is how different the Halcro sounds to the last time I had one driving my Magnepans. It is so creamy and complete. I remember it being a lot cooler presentation than this before. But on the Trio it is so beautifully natural and warm but without anything getting in the way.

It is very detailed but unlike the BC that detail is not just separation and ultra wide soundstage and amazing bass. Somehow the Halcro DM38 ties all that detail together and makes it relaxed and seemingly unimportant. It is ultra pure. All you do is put on record after record. A really great amp.

Thats not to say the BC is not great. You get a long way towards full highend performance with the BCs, but at the end of the day that last few percent of performance makes all the difference.

chadeffect March 30, 2010 07:27

The Halcro DM38 is plugged in.

chadeffect March 29, 2010 22:49

Gallant diva,
thanks. Straight back at you!

chadeffect March 13, 2010 23:05

Gallant diva,

No problem.

It isnt so much that I need help. It is just that I have never used the playlist function in Amarra before and I am surprised by the change in sound.

It is a little restrictive in a way, because you have to highlight the tracks to load into memory from itunes then press the playlist button in Amarra. Then press play. A bit long winded.

I tend to use itunes like a carousel, when I see something I feel like hearing I press play. Its very quick, but the playlist function in Amarra is a little more hassle. You can only load about 1 cd at a time as opposed to the 1000s of cd in itunes.

What I found surprising was a slight change in clarity for the better. The question is more about how that could be?

I am using an imac with plenty of memory which is only used for playing back music. It is very powerful considering all it is doing is playing AIFFs no matter how big they are!

chadeffect March 12, 2010 12:33

Has anyone been using the the "memory player" function called playlist in Amarra?

I only used it for the first time yesterday. I tend to just control my listening through itunes using Amarra but a friend of mine urged my to try the playlist function.

I was surprised to hear a noted improvement in clarity and focus.

chadeffect March 11, 2010 11:34

I had a spare mains filter gathering dust (audio magic) so I thought for the hell of it I would plug my computer into it.

I was surprised to find the sound of the system improved by a small but fair margin. The computer is on a different spur to the system anyway so it has nothing to do with the computer adding noise to the system itself that way.

I wondered if anyone else has tried conditioning on a computer which is used as a source?

chadeffect February 14, 2010 00:04

Hi Mapman,

the joys of the 2010. Unfortunately it is the music that is seen to be cheap as well now. Almost free most of the time. An industry that is in trouble at the moment, with film to follow...

chadeffect January 08, 2010 19:16

HI Mapman,
I have an older DCS transport. Not the new Scarlatti transport. Personally I think transports are over for all sorts of reasons. If not for sonics then convenience.

SACD is the only reason to have a transport now IMHO.

I cannot get the same solidity out of CD. I guess you could go on about the firewire cable from the Transport to the DAC (The transport upsamples to DSD and outputs via firewire) . But then again I have a really rubbish firewire cable from the computer to the Weiss. It sounds fantastic.

I can only say the transport has a kind of shimmer or something. I cannot put my finger on it. It sounds nice, but the file is more "there" or solid somehow. Maybe the transport has a little more haze. The file is so silent it is erie.

chadeffect January 08, 2010 18:43

Hi Muralman1,

I have noticed some small things that I felt could be better. We are talking very small but I feel important details. For a while I was using the optical output from the computer as the computer was a distance from the system itself.

It sounded very good on optical (wire world supernova 6 optical cable). If I had to buy a digital cable of that length, that was as good, it would have cost a fortune. In the end I needed to play higher bandwidth than the optical would allow. So hence the Weiss.

I had some traps from the studio lying around so I thought I would give them ago.

My room has some correction and sound proofing anyway. With my Apogees too much room correction via bass traps and diffusers sucked some life out of them.

Getting the balance right gave the Apogees an ability to show depth much clearer and they became less defuse and imagery more solid.

The Trio is different. It just does that. Correction seemed to make things cleaner down below and into the midband. Avantgarde have soundstage depth to spare compared to my Apogee. But now something sounded a bit ragged in the system. Of course it sounded great over all, but I knew something was letting things down a little.

I was wondering if this was the end of the road for my amps. What else could it be? It certainly wasnt the DCS. Was this the sound people were saying ice power has that I had suddenly woken up to? I need not have worried. The Weiss sorted this raggedness out straight away.

The sweetest, natural, and velvety sound emerged. Now I dont know if this is about Amarra, Weiss, bit perfect,low jitter or what? But it sounds very good. Very "Analogue".

Each recording sounds like the time it was recorded in. ECMs, Motown, Miles Davis (you got to hear "in a silent way"!),Kraftwerk, Radiohead, and so on. All in their own era. Like having a time machine. Amazing really. A testament to what can be found on some recordings.

To think I was this close to buying tube amps again.

chadeffect January 08, 2010 16:18

System edited: I am now using the Weiss int202 firewire interface with Amarra for itunes on a mac. This has added a more solid and silky 3D presentation while being very very clean. Even though things were very clean before, a notice able lift in purity. The DCS loves it. The high frequencies are very sweet, while the upper midband had gained some weight and definition which gives an added sense of soundstage depth.

chadeffect January 07, 2010 23:09

System edited: Just added a little more room correction in the shape of the Auralex bass traps. I have 8 well hidden in the room now. The room was quite tight in the bass department, and I liked the sound in there before, but after adding these additional traps I have noticed a marked improvement in bass quality.

chadeffect December 21, 2009 01:17

System edited: I added an upsampler for the computer output. Seems to work very well with itunes.

chadeffect October 18, 2009 10:49

Muralman1,
me too. Hope you enjoy those cds.

chadeffect September 10, 2009 16:51

Hi Muralman1,
To answer your question the Trios are sublime.

There is no fatigue at all. Quite the opposite. The only bad side effect is I now find it very difficult to listen to other speakers. Even very good ones. Everything else sounds distant, flat, compressed and vague by comparison. I think these are my final speakers. At last! They just get to the heart of things.

I have said a few times in these pages that I am struck by how well my BCs work with the Trios. I cannot explain it.

Low level listening is no problem. The volume control on the DCS has very small (1/2 db) intervals plus switchable output voltage. The amp never betrays its size. It could be a 5 watter.

Late night secret listening is fine, as are thundering head banging concert levels. I cannot fault them. It all sounds effortless. Ok so I have some mods on these ICE boards, but even so they are gentle giants, stunningly clear, precise and completely silent.

I am finding this sound hard to beat. It is the best sound I have ever had. Music comes to life in 3 dimensions. I am very happy... as are my friends.

chadeffect September 09, 2009 23:27

Hi Jasonparmenter,
Thank you for the recommendations. I know the Lamms well. A very nice amp. I would like to stay SS though, even though I have had some very nice listening sessions on the 2.1 and the 1.1(hybrid).

I dont know the Silicon Arts, but will have a look for them. I have been thinking about the Pass First Watts although it may be a slight pain to re terminate my ICs as I use XLRs. Not the end of the world. I would also like to try the XA30.5.

I am very close to going back to Halcro DM series though at this point, but not before trying the various contenders. Watch this space.

chadeffect September 09, 2009 22:46

Muralman1 you are a devil! Never say never, but I am fairly unlikely to go back to tube amps. Not only for the obvious problems but realistically I just dont have the space for them anymore.

chadeffect August 13, 2009 23:49

Hi Muralman1,
well I am no great expert but I am told a cascode (Cascade to cathode) is a 2 stage amp with a transconductance stage followed by a current buffer which means it has high input/output isolation ( there is no direct coupling from the output to the input). It has high input and output impedance (10k ohms) with high gain and high bandwidth (10hz-75khz).

The general problem with this type of amp is that they tend not to be very powerful although very stable. Obviously in this case this is no problem as I doubt I am even using 0.4 watts which is pure class A. But it will pump out 38 watts into 8 ohms class A/B. 38 watts on the trio would be like the space shuttle taking off.

Dont get me wrong when I said its details are not obvious. The amp is very detailed. Shockingly so in fact. It is just very natural and does not draw attention to it. It is slightly more rounded, but not soft. In some ways it feels more powerful than the BCs! It is very musical. The modified BCs hold all information up to the light to be seen, where as the Avantgarde Model 3 lets the light shine down leaving the shadows to fall naturally. Make sense?

I have to say this amp is way up there. It has some valve type color though very modern sounding and forgiving without the draw backs. A lovely piece of kit.

chadeffect August 13, 2009 16:43

A new Model anyone?

I have been lucky enough to be lent an Avantgarde Model 3 amplifier to try on my Avantgarde Trios. It is the start of my journey looking for more suitable amplification than my modified Bel cantos to drive the Trio. I must mention however just how well the BCs work with the Trio, but a little over kill I guess for a 110db speaker. I can hear a few audiophiles coughing! I was surprised too. They are a left over from my planar days. But as I have said before a good amp is a good amp!

The Model 3 is built specially to drive these high sensitivity speakers and drive them it certainly does. This amp is a cascode type staying in class A in my case for most of the time. It sounds sublime and is beautifully built. Its presentation is very smooth and musical. It seems to be as quiet and transparent as the BCs although the specs may not lead you to think so. The remote control is simple with a volume up/down and mute button. It is of very solid construction. If I stuck it down my pants I would get a lot of work in the porn industry.

It is early days so I wont say too much now, but I can see that I will have a problem having gotten so used to the huge sound of the BCs on the Trio.

The BCs have incredible grip and world class bass with crystaline detail to spare. The mods have given the BCs more sweetness, naturalness in the highs, flow and musicality, something the Model 3 also does beautifully.

The Model 3 also has great grip with a slightly fatter or forward midband, but with a fraction less deep bass weight and not quite the plummeting detailed bass control of the BC. Dont get me wrong the Model 3 does bass, lovely warm and deep bass, it is just a little more related to a controlled 6550s bass. Not a bad thing.

The Model 3 does make music very easily though, and easy the music sounds too, even if the extreme details are not rendered as obviously as the BC. It is fluid with a touch of syrup , clean, clear, warm and modern sounding. A joy to use.

chadeffect August 12, 2009 19:45

Hi Mapman,

Music CDs are ripped with read until right and stored on my hifi computer and/or transfered from other systems via firewire or USB drives/keys. I have been known to use my phone to pass data via bluetooth. Mainly small wavs or Jpegs.

My hifi computer takes its data from both its internal drive and external drives connected directly to it. One drive has music, the other film. The rest of the house gets its data from a network drive set up via my router, or copies of parts of my library on my laptop etc. Nothing too fancy.

Some data is passed via LAN and the rest via wireless. My better half still prefers to watch films on optical disk so the system is not being pushed too hard yet.

chadeffect August 03, 2009 00:44

Hi Mapman,
computers in general are heaven and hell! When they work it is great, when they dont it is a lonely time consuming headache. Luckily these days they are a little more sorted out than back in the day (windows 98 agggg!)

I have set up a system where I have music and film on a computer (mac) for my hifi, and then a 2TB network drive for the rest of the house on the router to be able to listen to music and watch films in any room. An ipod touch is a remote if needed, but the hifi computer is next to the hot seat and is very easy to flick through the library. It is a little tight for the Firewire/USB cables as I need around 6m for it to reach the hifi and 5m seems to be the limit before using powered extensions.

I have macs and PCs all on the same network, so I have the best of both worlds. I learned a longtime ago to back up all the time and have a budget for harddrives. I never had a drive go down in many years of very heavy use until I had 3 drives die in 2 weeks and I lost a lot of information and the music for a project I was in the middle of. A very low feeling indeed. Especially when drives are so cheap.

chadeffect August 01, 2009 09:58

I have started the 1st phase of moving to a fully computer based system. This is mainly due to a friend of mine whose Hifi is at a crossroads and is on the search for a great new set up and he renewed my resolve to get back on the horse. I dont want to change anything other than my source. But as the computer world crashes the audiophile world anything is possible!

I have hovered for about 6 years waiting... It still feels like computers in highend systems are at a fetal stage generally. Although I have been using true computer based pro recording equipment for at least 12 years. I find it strange that no one really made it into the audiophile market. I guess a lot of it due to the dull analogue vs digital debate and an aging market with heads in the sand. Meanwhile all the kids got used to millions of compressed songs on their computers, ipods and phones for free...

I have come up against all sorts of oddness with sample rates or files not being fully supported in world where my work equipment just knows what to do and just works(mostly!). No manual switching or confusion. Then the new audiophile monkey on the back, the USB or firewire debate.

In my work world nearly all the A to D and D to A gear is firewire. Now is this because firewire sounds better? I doubt it. I think it is more to do with the fact that most computers at the time in recording studios were Macs which all used firewire 400. Nothing too fancy or audiophile just good solid tools for the job.

I have spent the last week transferring files and ripping 100s of disks from my CD collection. I have 3 Terra bytes of music of which nearly 1 Terra byte is redbook 16bit 44.1k. The rest is high bandwidth multitrack recordings and masters from years of work.

I have arranged for various boxes to arrive (weiss/bel canto/DCS). I will post my findings as I get through listening to each properly.

One thing I can say for the computer based system so far is just how much more music I have ended up listening to. It is a real freedom. Now does it sound better or worse or the same? The answer is yes, all of the above.

chadeffect July 31, 2009 21:16

Vince,
It seems you are dealing with that very delicate system synergy. Mess with it at your peril!

On your originals, and not to labor the point but just as a general comment, I think you will find the spragues against something like the mundorf will be quite grainy and less pure or natural sounding. Tails of notes and spacial cues will die away into silence rather than noise, grunge or grain.

The Spragues are not bad especially considering their age. There is a likable forgiving "fuzz" or "glow" about them. Again I wouldnt change anything, just add a bypass and see. Leave it in for a few weeks and if it sounds bad just unsolder it and you are back to normal. I doubt you will go back though.

I am sure there are many on the gon who will buy mundorf silver/gold in oil, or silver in oil 0.1mf caps from you. Especially if you leave the lead out wires uncut. They are very useful as a simple and effective tweak.

chadeffect July 23, 2009 11:52

Hi Vince,
indeed! Funny you should mention it. I was close to doing one wall with a slightly more modern version of a Bradbury and Bradbury type print. I thought better of it.

I would say 400 hours probably is still not enough run in. In mine they just got better and better. But if you have the old crossover you could well be hearing the limit of the spragues or something else. So difficult to know.

I am very aware of the amount of caps in yours. I am also aware of how difficult it is to fit decent replacement caps of such large values, let alone the high cost. Keep the spragues and spend the money on bypass caps I would say is your best option.

In the end I found it easier to build external crossovers which helped in vibration control, and gave more freedom to choose caps and coils.

It is unfortunate the capacitance is so large in Apogees, but you can cut costs and not lose too much performance. Use an ok cap to get you close to the value needed, then use good quality ones to bypass. You get 80% of the sound from the bypass.

If you did go for a top of the range mundorf cap (or whatever) as bypasses ( say 0.1mf for the mid/tweeter) it would cost around $100 for the pair and probably much less for the silver version which is nice and way better than what was originally in there. They will fit in under the cover if the crossover is original.

While $100 is a $100 I doubt you could get anything better for the cash in such a speaker. You would not need to go to the hassle of an external crossover etc. If you could stretch to it, bypass with the same bypass cap on the bass panel too. It is striking how it helps integrate the crossover point.

What you will get in return is more layering and timbre detail, less grain and the Apogee will sound even more refined.

chadeffect July 22, 2009 11:45

Hi Vince,
I guess if it aint broke dont fix it. I am unclear as to exactly what you are hearing with the new speaker, but I assume you have found some synergy with your old speakers.

I dont know the Obligatto caps other than they are cheap and gold in color, but I am sure you could do better. Try using the cheap caps to make up the biggest values and use nice ones to bypass. A nice 0.1 mf Mundorf silver/gold in oil over the tweeters will liven things up. If only the duelund VSF caps were a possibility in an Apogee... I would hate to see the bill. I did look into it with my Duettas. Ouch!

chadeffect July 21, 2009 20:32

Vince,

what was the situation with the cross over in the new speaker? ie Which caps/resistors/coils/wiring? Are you still using the Sprague originals?

chadeffect July 21, 2009 11:01

Hi Vince,
I am sorry to hear you didnt get on with the new speaker. I am sure there are several reasons for this and probably relatively easy to sort out if you had the mind to. Also dont forget those ribbons take forever to settle and for the midband to warm up. The Divas sounded very odd for some time. Bright and thin. A combination of the new ribbons and new mundorf caps This was less of a problem with the duettas although they still took a while. You are lucky to have another set ready to go!

I would love for you to come over and enjoy some Avantegard Trio, wine and food. My knowledge of speaker placement and system set up has been pushed to the limit with these. It has been worth the effort though. Every small movement solves/creates another one. But once a good position is found they are as fine as anything I have heard, but with a directness which is uncanny.

People complain about Avantegard subs, but they are very good. just placement is hard which is not made any easier by the stupid markings on the back which make the cut off freq very hard to set with confidence. I guess the Bass horn solves all that! Luckily for my wallet they would not fit in my listening room.

chadeffect July 17, 2009 08:26

Still finding myself messing around with the Trio placement. Well not really the Trio so much as the subs.

I have found a good place for the subs where they seem to aline themselves better with the Trio. I have never used a sub whos cut off comes up as high in frequency as these before, so placement feels even more tricky.

I finally have put the subs on spiked platforms and I seem to have found what I was looking for. The upper frequency of the sub seems to support and blend so much better than I have heard them before. Much more uniform and more planar like. The soundstage is, dare I say, even more holographic. And that is saying something.

What a speaker, but boy do you have to work to make them sing. I am still driving them with the Bel canto monos too!

chadeffect July 15, 2009 23:40

System edited: Finally added some power regeneration. Now that the PS audio is powerful enough and quiet enough, I felt it was time. I had the old 300w version many years ago and it was ok but it could not power what I was using at the time. The new PPP is a different story. A nice solution from a clever and forward thinking company.

chadeffect June 20, 2009 18:49

Hi Esotheric,

Haha. I guess the symposium platform helps the bathroom scales to be more in tolerance. Always good to know just how heavy your butt is! Your house is like an audiophiles Aladins cave. If only you could be bothered to plug some of it in.

I cant wait to hear those new AGs of yours. I have my new external Trio crossover nearly ready to go. The new VD power chords for the subs are on a plane as I write. Surely we are nearly done now?

Lets give those valves one last chance. I know how you feel about them, but now we are well over 100db/watt, surely we can get the best out of the those antiques we call valve amps? I did ask that guy about the first watt too. We have all the digital and ss amps we could want dont we? And the Halcro DM on its way back home too! Now all we have to do is clear the diary and get on with some mammoth listening sessions.

chadeffect June 13, 2009 17:39

Hi Mapman and Muralman1,

I too was of the same opinion. If I had not tried this combination, I would be saying the BCs are too much for this speaker. I would use phrases like too high a damping factor blah blah...

Something better or better synergy will always be just around the corner. I am just starting that journey. But if this is not close to synergy god help me!

The Trio does present an awkward impedance curve so I am told, and needs more power than you would think, 3 watts instead of 2! Lol. I have seen some big amps on them in the past.

The few amps I have tried so far (all ss) have given me some insight into the speakers abilities. They are striking in their transparency. Any change of electronics is ruthlessly portrayed. Not just as a slight shift of timbre or frequency tilt or soundstage change, but in a 3 dimensional character within which the above are just parts. Does that make sense? I dont think I can explain it more clearly.

I was thinking about the First watt amps. I know a guy who does Wavac and I was thinking about trying them, although I am not convinced a Wavac 300b type would be quiet enough (or cheap enough!). The thought of messing in the murky world of valves again does bore me although I bet there would be some reward.

To be honest I am that close to going back to the Halcro DM series. The Halcro DM38 would be sublime I am sure. Still powerful, but nothing the Trio cannot handle. I am trying to think of valve amps worth trying. There must be many.

My slight fear with the DM series Halcro with the DCS direct in, is it could be a little too much of a good thing. I would probably need some kind of preamp to "blurr the edges". I guess I will just have to experiment. But at the risk of repeating myself, I cannot fault the sound. The resolution is striking and is fluid, musical and deeply involving. Bass stops on a dime.

Maybe I have reached the end of the road? Maybe I should just start looking for that hard drive server? A computer/dac combo or the PS audio PW or...oh no!

chadeffect May 30, 2009 10:29

Well I have finally got the Trios set up to my liking. What a speaker system it is. It has a spirit and soul.

I have struggled a little to balance it. The subs settings are a giant key into its evenness.

Being a planar man for many years I expect a speaker to be seamless and transparent. Top to bottom. Walk in soundstage, with naturalness and flow.

To begin with the Trio was anything but seamless, although I knew it was capable. Now I can hand on heart say, after some set up time and run in, they are every bit as natural, seamless and transparent as anything I have owned or heard,but with a giant magnifying glass added into every area.

If there are any people out there with Goto drivers and high sensitivity set ups reading this, although I am only dealing with 110db/watt plastic speakers(!), I must bow to you for following the true path. There is no going back. It is obvious to me now. I can only imagine what a high sensitivity tweeter that costs 30k and weighs more than my subs can do. I am struck by the capabilities of my Avantgarde Trio. The Trio is like an electrostatic speaker that can do very high SPLs with plummeting bass and dynamic freedom with palpability way beyond hifi.

Yes I am still running them with the modified Bel canto monos. Something that seems so wrong (a hugely powerful amp driving ultra sensitive speakers) with just one listen you know is so right. Some of the finest sound I have heard. Ok on some cheap recordings you could say it is forward, but anything well recorded is sublime and alive. I was thinking about some flea power amp...I dont think I will bother.

chadeffect May 23, 2009 00:26

Hi Geir,
I use a pro firewire cable at the moment which is silver with ferrite rings at each end as filters and is used with protools recording systems. It made a worth while difference. The sound became cleaner and soundstage became more focused. There is also the Acrolink/Esoteric 8N-6p-6pi but is more expensive and difficult to find.

DCS say the Siltech is the best but extremely expensive. There is another one which is cheap and good which I believe is made in Poland. I cant remember the name of it off the top of my head, but it is meant to be the best value for money at the moment. Virtual dynamics were talking of making one but as far as I know it is not out yet.

In my experience the firewire cable makes a difference but you would be better off making sure all the other cables/power conditioning in the system are the best you can find first.

Hope this helps. I have tried to search for that Polish or eastern european firewire cable but could not find it. Try contacting DCS they would know it.

chadeffect April 13, 2009 23:28

Off axis is not quite so percussive and you loose some layering/depth. The deep bass is slightly less full but I think thats more about the room.

chadeffect March 11, 2009 20:23

Hi Mauralman1,

yes it is quite a challenge to get that last bit of performance out of a good speaker.

I spoke to Avantgarde and they were very helpful. So I know a little more about what I am chasing and how to achieve it. All the observations I have been making are typical they say.

Off axis listening is quite difficult to do in this room, but as much as I can there is little change. Sat in the hot seat is very good though.

chadeffect March 10, 2009 20:38

Hi guys,
after lots of fiddling it would seem that the subwoofer settings are very important and sensitive. Even more so than anything I have had before.

It has been a long time since I have used subs without any display, remote control or feedback, relying on just your ears over may tracks with vague markings on the difficult to access back. I do have some frequency sweeps and test tones which I must dig out.

The lower the subs volume, the more the top end opens up. Seems obvious but the interaction is not subtle.

When I first set the Trios up, the subs were set to a very high output which seemed to choke the rest of the sound. It would seem I still have them set a bit high.

I had unos years ago, but these subs seem to act differently. I dont remember having to set the volume quite as low. The cut off frequency is fine its the output that is harder to judge in this room. Especially without a remote control to use at the listening position.

It is early days I guess and I have forgotten how long it can take to get the set up right, especially when my other speaker systems had been set up so perfectly and my high expectations.

chadeffect March 10, 2009 09:26

Hi Mapman,
I am looking into it, as I am not completely sure what could be causing it. I dont feel its the room size. While my room is not enormous, its just within the Trios smaller limits.

Muralman1,

I have to say when my better half arrived home after the Trios were delivered and they were half put together in the listening room, she said "you are ****ing joking?"

But what I have learned is you have to respect someones passion. Because without it you are dead. As a man, you have to keep part of the boy alive otherwise you become castrated and ultimately unattractive too.

I am lucky, she seems to understand it although there is a dislike for my interest in hifi, although she is a music lover and enjoys pumping up the volume. I cannot wait for her to pump up the volume on the Trio. She will get a surprise...Tinitus!

She hated the Apogees looks too but loved their sound. What other speaker is there that is capable and woman friendly?

chadeffect March 10, 2009 01:18

As things settle down I think it is wise to say where I feel the Avantgarde Trio has trouble when compared with the grazzed and modified Apogees.

For sure the Trio is not as extended in the highs although some recordings do seem to be extended while others do not. These same recordings on the Apogee all have air, texture and sweetness regardless.

The bass of the Trio while very impressive does lack that very last bit of texture. This could be due to my set up at the moment as I am not driving the subs from the same capable amp.

I will try to address the set up of the Trio more as they are so sensitive to any changes of equipment.

Again it may be good to say that the cross overs in my Apogees have the finest parts in while the Avantgarde is standard and uses competent components, maybe not SOTA ones.

chadeffect March 09, 2009 15:02

Hi Muralman1,

I have made the space for them, lets put it that way! They dont look too bad do they?

Sound wise ultimately it will be a giant leap when I have got them how I would like. The hard work auditioning parts for the Apogees will need to be done again for the Trios, although I have a feeling the Mundorf silver gold in oils or the Duelands caps will be the way forward.

Mapman, I promise to keep an eye on the volume. Of course you guys are more than welcome to swing by for a drink and a bite to eat and enjoy some audiophillia. Divas for starters trios for main?

chadeffect March 07, 2009 18:19

Ok I promised to report back my initial findings moving from the latest grazed and fully pimped out Apogee Divas and Duetta sigs to Avantgarde Trios, so here we go...

Digital front end is a DCS full stack with Analysis plus golden Oval linking the amps with Virtual dynamics speaker cables. All electricity is cleaned and is separated using Oyaide XXX sockets and Oyaide plugs. The Avantgarde active subs have their own conditioning via a Shunyata Hydra.

Due to the issues with a bridged amp and Avantgarde active subs, I have not been able to use the Bel canto ref 1000s full range. So I have been using the Bel canto to run the tweeters/midrange/mid bass horns.

I am sure most would think I am mad to run an ultra sensitive (110db/watt) speaker with such a beast of an amp. I can only report the most glorious, fluid and compelling listen. It is giving me utterly crystaline and natural audio with a deep 3D soundstage. The type I have only heard from the finest TT and valve amps at 4am in the morning, but without any of the drawbacks. The Apogee is capable of this too, but this kind of effortlessness is not available from any other type of speaker system I know. And yes I do include giant Wilsons etc. Raw power, as I have tried, can bring speakers to life, but when the speaker is already alive you realize that power on its own is a hopeless battle.

I can only describe the Trio as a magnifying glass on a system. More like the Hubble telescope, able to show distant galaxies previously unseen rather than the type used to read the small print opt out clauses in insurance policies.

Every last detail is rendered with ease. It has the detail and honesty of my beautiful Apogees which I love, but with a dynamic ease and weight which has to be heard to be believed. The Trio can carry a musical message with spooky palpability. The speed and control is up there with great electrostatics but without the lightness or slight thinness and dynamic compression the bred can have ( I do mean the ML CLX too!). My Apogees were a different bred in this regard once I had them modified, nothing like the original, so much more alive and precise. They are a stunning speaker, but still the Trio manages to make even these fabulous Apogees sound slightly chocked or flat. I do feel the modified Diva and duetta sigs are sublime and sound remarkably similar to the Trio in many ways. You just cannot get that contrast, but you can get close with a 1000w...

Vocals on the Trio are presented with enormous weight and palpability. In fact everything has enormous palpability!

This may sound like they batter you to death, but it isnt hard or tiring to listen to. Quite the opposite.

Each recording leaves you changed, from Miles Davis effortless trumpet solos where you can feel his breath and spit, to Kraft Werks minimum maximum with its relentless and percussive bass synths etched as they modulate and sweep filters with clever tempo sync'd reverbs and delays. The inner workings of the recording are made obvious but still as a musical whole.

After a few set up problems and the unwieldy VD speaker cable, my feeling is just like the big Apogees, the Avantgarde Trio is a classic and a truly great audiophile device.

Mods will be done in time. The x over replaced with better parts and I will address the subs amps. I think Ice power will take them to a new level.

chadeffect March 07, 2009 10:15

Hi Mapman,
As promised some pics. I will add more as I get things sorted out.

I am not using the Bel cantos at the moment. I am using a 40 watt Orpheus amp on the Trios. Very nice.

I am still setting the Trios up as I have not had time to experiment yet. With luck a good friend of mine is bringing a Dm38 Halcro which will be used for a while. My system is not set up properly and has been in pieces for a bit, but what is plugged in is sounding ok. I know once I have things set up a little better it will be awesome. I have a steep learning curve with the Trio I feel...

chadeffect March 05, 2009 21:58

System edited: installing the trios...I thought I would try high sensitivity after many years of tough loads

chadeffect March 05, 2009 21:40

hopefully I will get a chance to take some at the weekend.

chadeffect February 13, 2009 00:27

Hi Muralman and Mapman,

I am on a whole new journey it would seem. I will look forward to trying amps out but I am in no rush to change right now.

Unfortunately I dont have the time to play with much new equipment at the moment.

Muralman I doubt the noise I am hearing is anything to do with the cabling. Though I am open to ideas.

The Apogees are still stunning speakers and do things even the trio doesnt, but that dynamic freedom is only available 1 way it would seem. I tried massive power on low sensitivity and now on high sensitivity. You just cant beat the laws of physics... yet! All that resistance cannot be beaten even with these lightening fast amps. Its like running with a ball and chain. Obviously the Trio has floors too though.

chadeffect February 11, 2009 23:10

Hi Mapman and Muralman1,

A very different beast to drive indeed. The bel canto must wonder what has happened?A bit like training at high altitude then coming back down.

I have to say a good amp is a good amp. Be assured it sounds very good. Very percussive, fast and ultra clean, although there is some noise if you put your ear next to the horn. A slight hiss. Something I have never heard before as these amps make no noise at all normally.

I was laughing to myself thinking this must be the only pair of 110db horns driven by such power...madness? Actually not mad at all. Baring in mind the extra 20 odd db/watt the volume control setting is still reasonable.

My loud listening volume on the DCS dac with the Apogees is around number -20 on loud recordings, but I had good volume on the trio at -30. It is hard to tell how loud things are as there is no sign of distortion. The only way is to try to speak. When you realize you cannot hear yourself speak you know it is loud!

I am not sure what I will do amp wise in the long run. A dear friend of mine has offered me his Orpheus amps to drive them. They are a very nice amp maybe a bit lean. The Halcro would be amazing, but I just dont have the space anymore to put it in and I cannot face changing the cabling all over again.

I am not sure I will go back to tubes. If the noise is like that with my amps I cannot think what it will be with tubes. The last time I had Avantgardes I had ARC monos, the sound was sublime, but the noise was very bad when nothing was playing. Maybe its time for flea power? I will let you know how I get on. But as I said earlier the Ref1000s while probably not meant for such a speaker, with the rewiring of the sub for the electrical issues of bridged amps, sound very good. Most would not complain.

chadeffect February 11, 2009 11:34

So I plugged in the Avantgarde Trios in white...

19 Ohms and 110db/watt. The first thing to notice is the strange sculpted look. Like a pair of aliens landed in the listening room. Someone called them snowmen with bazookers.

Due to the nature of the active subs, driving them with my Bel cantos (slightly over kill!) did cause some problems, and the amp suffered for a while until the issue with the ground/negative connection with the subs was dealt with. But it was obvious that something serious was on the cards.

More to follow...

chadeffect February 10, 2009 21:15

Hi Muralman1,
sorry I have not reported back to you regarding the Divas performance. I was hoping to run them in over christmas.

It turned out that there was a wrong value in a pair of the inductors. So I have not been using them. They went back to Apogee (John). I should get them back in the next week or 2. So watch this space.

Yes it took a long time for the Graz ribbons to settle in my Duetta sigs. They were forward and zingy for a while. I found them better in every way anyway, and after a few months of use they became natural and sublime. Way better dynamics, tighter and faster bass etc. They sound great at high SPL.

Meanwhile I may be back on the path to Trios. I found a pair...The question is in such times should I buy them?

chadeffect January 23, 2009 15:26

Hi Muralman1,
i will give you the low down on the divas shortly. I have been away recording so I have not had a chance to even burn them in yet. I am hoping to lock myself away over the holidays. So by the end of next week I should have some time. What I can tell you is that they have been done to perfection by Apogee to my specs with all the lessons learned from the Duettas.

All new Graz ribbons, all new wiring, better connectors to the ribbons, binding posts, simplified new xcross overs with bypassed caps (Caps are Mundorf silvergold in oil, plus a few Clarity caps from a new range they have designed), Mundorf copper foil inductors, in suspended external boxes.

I did all I could to bring the Diva up to modern specs, cost no object. Well when I say cost no object I would have liked to have put Dueland caps in but that would have more than doubled the cost of the caps which was already sky high.

I cant wait to get back home, but which track to play first?

chadeffect December 15, 2008 00:52

Alas the deal with the Trio fell through at the last minute. So I will have to try again and find another pair of trios...

It is a little upsetting but it could be worse. I still have my beloved Apogees.

chadeffect November 23, 2008 21:30

haha Mapman,
I hope I dont need the ear plugs for myself! I will keep you informed as to my findings when they eventually arrive.

The last time I had Avantgardes it was a hoot, though I had some problems integrating the bass units because I didnt have enough sockets on the conditioner and it meant 1 sub had clean power and a nice power cable and the other did not. It was a good advert for clean power.

chadeffect November 05, 2008 19:04

Hello Muralman1, Mapman,
my two favorite super heroes. One should be careful joking about such things on these pages. It could be true! I havent had any hate mail from the Apogee owners club so far...

But you will be pleased to hear there has been no defection just yet. The trios didnt arrive and delivery has been put off a little longer, maybe next week.

So I can still don my low sensitivity Apogee cape with matching pants.

chadeffect November 04, 2008 19:50

Most of you who look through these pages will probably know I have always been a planar speaker lover. Today, while I am obviously keeping my beloved Apogees, I move to Avantgarde Trios...

Yes High sensitivity (110 db/watt) horns have got me. Lets see how it pans out.

chadeffect November 02, 2008 09:56

New Ref 1000mrk2 Bel cantos! What a great company. Bettering an already astonishing amp. What next?

chadeffect October 16, 2008 20:40

I have been trying out the equibit amplifier technology from Lyngdorf over the last few days.

First impressions are of more air in the treble than the ICE power amps.(Not the new ICE2 boards). I dont think they quite have the same separation or very deep bass as the Bel canto Ref1000s have, but still very fine and could suit some tastes better. There seems to be better back to front soundstage depth with the equibit. These amps are really very good and also have room correction built in!

If it is not the case already, these amplifier technologies will soon become the only amplifier options I am sure.

For people wanting high resolution, great power handling and control, ultra low distortion, highly energy efficient and compact amps where else can you look? Hopefully this will force sensible pricing for all high end amplification too.

For years I had very expensive amps from very fine and well known manufacturers, and these relatively cheap amps completely out perform them in just about every way IMHO.

From what I have read the new ICE2 boards have addressed many areas of the design and improved power handling, dropped distortion even further and extended bandwidth. I hope to have some to try very soon and to be able to try them side by side.

chadeffect September 20, 2008 22:12

Hi Muralman,
You must be lucky today, no shark attacks yet!

The Avantgarde Trio is daft for most normal sized rooms I would agree. But I also know a few women who think the Apogee is daft too, including my better half. She thinks I am nuts. Even though I have caught her blasting the Apogees with her favorite music and singing along many times.

I took her to a classical concert in London a few months ago. We had good seats and it was a beautiful concert. As we were leaving she said to me "you know I think it sounds better at home". I knew what she meant. At home the perspective is closer.

My worry with the Trio is nothing will ever have the impact and contrast, even if you had your head pressed up against the double basses...

chadeffect September 08, 2008 00:02

Mapman,

I have tried the Avantgarde Uno and know it pretty well. I have heard the Duo many times too. They are good with palpable midrange, but the bass can suffer depending on the room and set up. The horn loaded bass in the trio is something else. It makes the trio seamless like the Apogee can be.

I had many years with Magnepans and found they needed some volume to bring them to life. It could have been the amps I had though. I dont find low volume listening a problem with the gear I have now. It is just as clear and defined.

The Avantgarde sounds just as good at low volumes as at higher volumes.

PS Even on the youtube site played through my lap top speaker you can hear the poise and freedom of the trio.

chadeffect September 07, 2008 21:56

It is true. They are soooo big that if you had them at home in a smallish room, people would think you were insane.

Also they do excite the room quite a lot. Room correction helps here, but you need to be a fair seating distance from them.

I have not heard the Klipschorns in a while, but my memory of them was that they were ok but suffered from some of the usual colorations of horns.

The beauty of the Avantgarde Trio is they do not sound like horns other than the huge sound and dynamic freedom. The rest is as good as some of the finest speakers without effort.

I am very tempted to have a pair. A good friend of mine feels the same way and we have been trying to find an excuse to just buy them! But I think it may be just the audiophile illness playing with our minds again.

Watch this space... if you see a picture of them in my room you know the illness won!

chadeffect September 07, 2008 08:19

Hi Mapman,
I have to say I think you could kill your hearing easily with them.

You could even have a go at reproducing the sound of the space shuttle taking off! It is not only the power of the dynamics alone. It is also the freedom of the inner detail which is magical.

It would be interesting in general to catalogue peoples hearing to see why they prefer one speaker or type of sound over another.

Haha! Life is risk mapman I guess. I always think the only difference is if you live in fear of it or not.

chadeffect September 06, 2008 20:25

indeed. I would love to have them in the studio. The worry would be if there was a problem. Like one of the dacs sending 0db of white noise which has happened to me a couple of times. That wakes you up I can assure you.

I suspect the only sound you would hear for the rest of your life would be the sound of a ringing bell and nothing else!

chadeffect September 06, 2008 14:59

This week I have been lucky enough to spent time with some very fine speaker systems. From the Cabasse Sphere, through various Apogees, B&W 801ds, ATC, Wilson system 8, and ending with the Avantgarde Trio.

It is heard to believe how amazing the Avantgarde Trio horns are. Every time I have heard this speaker I have been drawn to them. I am left wondering why some other speaker manufacturers bother trying. It would be very depressing to put any of the above speakers side by side and A/B them.

Now I am at the point where I can say this is the only speaker (if you have the space) worth owning. I have never heard any speaker than can do what the trio can. No planar or electrostatic or dynamic box. Audiophiles must stop fooling themselves. Low sensitivity speakers are a joke in comparison simple horns.

I am sorry to offend anyone who feels they have great sound and feel there is nothing better than what they own, But hand on heart after many years of upgrading, listening to all sorts of systems, and spending giant sums of money on equipment and cables. That is it. Trios.

Of course set up is everything, as I have heard Avantgardes sound unbalanced and overbearing too in the past. But set up well that is it.

I hate to think what the trio with bass horns would be like. Luckily they wont fit in my room! The Trio seem to do everything. Detail,soundstaging, wide frequency response, staggering dynamics and complete flow and with beguiling emotional connection. Overwhelming.

I dont mean to preach, but if you have a chance to hear them set up well, room corrected with high resolution front end and amps, I doubt you will be the same person who walked in.

chadeffect September 06, 2008 14:05

I have liked a lot of french equipment in the past. The Cabasse Sphere is the best though. I would even have a pair as sculpture, let alone for their wonderful sound.

Their spacial coherence must be one of the finest there is. They say it is 25khz-20hz and 93db/watt not forgetting the 8,000 watts of power! But they measured down to 14hz in the room with tones!

You wont confuse them for any another speaker that is for sure.

I have never heard the Jadis Eurythmie but it looks very interesting and I seem to remember it is 103db/watt.

chadeffect September 02, 2008 00:18

Yes. I told you I had the Baltic plus thor (subs) which are expensive but not madly.

They also make a range called the Idea range, and in that range there is a sat plus sub which sounds very good too for around 1 or $2K. It looks like the Baltic but smaller. There is also a more conventional looking floor stander that is as good too.

They have some cheap home theater models that sound really good for that kind of thing. The high sensitivity and there special drivers really make a difference when compared to the competition.

chadeffect September 01, 2008 18:31

Hi Mapman,
they are really very good as they should be at that level. The reality is that this philosophy will trickle down to more realistic price levels soon.

I find them beautiful works of art let alone their sound. They look great in a cream white!

They have a delicacy and richness I have only heard from electrostats and planars like the Apogee, with the freedom in dynamics that you have to work hard on in these types of inefficient speaker

chadeffect September 01, 2008 18:00

I had a day with the Cabasse Sphere today. A remarkable looking speaker with equally remarkable sound.

I had their smaller Baltic speaker with twin subs called Thors before. So I had an idea of what they would sound like within reason.

Ok they are very expensive $150,000 or so. They are a point source 4 way quad axial speaker shaped like a giant ball and have a digital xover with room correction. They are the most coherent speaker I think I have heard to date, and I have heard quite a few good ones! The Cabasse are a totally time alined 4 way quad axial driver, all EQed to the room and active with 8x 1000watt monos.

They have detail and dynamics to spare with soundstaging that is so believable and solid with one of the best basses I have heard. I say this because I have heard coherence and detail many times, but never bass in the same way. It has all the texture and weight you could want. The difference is the bass seemed to support and underpin the other frequencies with such (sorry to say the word again) coherence! A full range point source all corrected down to 14 hz.

Some of you out there who have very fine systems will expect detail and musicality, a holographic soundstage with depth and naturalness hovering in front of you as the norm. These are that, but more... well just more! (I wont say coherent again)

A great speaker I have to say.

chadeffect September 01, 2008 16:04

Muralman1,
Its funny because Graz of Apogee believed that what I needed was a Scintilla too. He makes a Scintilla based design called the synergy. New and improved. I have heard them and spent some time with them. It is very good and is much more sensitive than the original Scintilla. I have mentioned it before in a thread somewhere. It is around 96 or 97 db/watt, much easier to drive and better all round. Looks great too.

I will get around to getting one some day if the credit crunch and oil price doesnt finish us off. But I am just getting my new Divas up to modern standards now. I will see how I get on with them.

I have had many biting my hand off for my beloved Duettas which have done me proud. My pair are remarkable as Esotheric above will testify I am sure. I have had a few speaker designers here, as well as other high end audio manufactures to listen or audition equipment, all have left praising them. Some a little shocked. I have had a lot of help getting them to this level.

When DCS came over to install the Scarlatti the guy said it was the finest sound he had heard. I dont remember if that was before I gave him the money or after though, so maybe that should not count!

To answer your question about the microphones, the Neumanns are large diaphram condenser mics. Some have valve power supplies others solidstate. Each used in different positions around the room for close miking and ambience miking.

The use of ribbon mics is a little more specialist as they have a sound, a very nice one! But for the session we were after a different thing. The results are breath taking. Such depth and air with vivid textures. I will let you know when it comes out.

chadeffect August 29, 2008 00:52

Muralman,
the Cabasse did live in my room for about 6 months I guess. Longer than most. They did rock well. The dynamics and separation were very good and had a musical warmth.

There was something that I could never get quite right with them though. I think the highs would be helped with a super tweeter. The subs were ok, but when you have heard a planar do bass it is hard to go back.

Mapman I quite liked the eye balls, it was like being watched by a caring nurse.

They did look cool and in the right light had an aura. Very classy as only the French can do. Everyone who came over at the time would admire them. They dont dominate the room like a planar can. A very interesting speaker.

They have a new giant 4 way version now which costs $100,000! I will hear it on monday. If you are interested I will post something about them.

chadeffect August 28, 2008 23:52

Hi Muralman,
Lets not get too carried away with my audio stock, but I have worked with some great guys in the industry and am lucky enough to call some my close friends. This mornings hang over is testament to it!

The session yesterday was in studio 1 at Abbey rd studios. We used a selection of beautiful Neumann vintage microphones of which Abbey road have the finest collection.

So many legendary recordings were made on these very mics in that very room. Recording in full surround you hear the full beauty and warmth of that room. Of course the preamps, desk and ADDA converters are all state of the art getting the best out of these audio gems.

Abingdon music make a nice CD player. Good british engineering. The Gallo is a very nice speaker. Not too expensive either if I remember.

A friend of mine is a dealer for them. There is a Cabasse speaker that works a little better IMHO than it due to higher sensitivity. They look like giant eye balls on a stands with twin subs. French triaxial cool. Very crisp sound. I think its called the Baltic 2. They may be a bit more expensive than the Gallos in fairness.

chadeffect August 28, 2008 19:51

Mapman,
Haha... you could be right there. Although judging by some of the films I have seen lately maybe the idea has some promise! A spoof maybe?

See you on the red carpet.

chadeffect August 28, 2008 10:49

I like the idea of you guys being super hereos. If there is danger Mapman instantly finds a way out with his super map powers and then to distract the evil enemy Muralman paints a beautiful mural to distract them while we escape.

The Scarlatti is extra ordinary in all areas including the price! I cant fault it.
If only it was cheap. I have tried quite a few but nothing was like the DCS. So I stopped although the 2 box EMM labs was good but not a Scarlatti.

chadeffect August 27, 2008 18:47

Hi Mapman and Muralman1,
with these names I feel I am talking to some super hereos!

Anyway, I know what you mean by the word smooth, although I dont think that is the correct word for the latest DCS. Rich may be better, and not in a fat way, but in a full of instrument texture and spacial cues way. This player is the most free and dynamic I know. Especially in the highs.

I cant really comment on the way DCS calculates the codes and the effects of their approach. I am sure they have done what they can.

When I had a chance to audition the DCS range I was struck by its utter transparency speed, timing and flow. As you go up the range these improve more and more.

Regarding the B&O amp boards I know there are some developments coming sometime towards the end of the year.

I have mine on order as I cant wait to find out where the improvements will be.

Muralman1 I have some devices inside my amps which deal with some forms of radiation and sonically tidies things up by a worthwhile amount.

DCS were not willing to do this for me, although when the warranty runs out I will have them put them in if they will fit.

I think if you use ERS cloth you have to be very careful as you can over do it very easily. Plus they can short your board too if you are unlucky with the fibers. I have a very small amount of it near power supplies.

chadeffect August 27, 2008 11:15

Hi Murualman1,
very interesting. I have done quite a bit of reading on quantum theory in the past. Particle or wave? The observing of the experiment changing the result and so on. A strange world in the macro.

It was a few years ago now and I am sure the theory has moved on in the last 5 or 10 years since I last studied it.

I went through an interesting phase where I used some PWB products. These very odd products, which included foils that had some kind of quantum idea imprinted on them, were meant to be stuck on various things in the room including the hifi, CD or record. I had some very strange results. Especially when I put some inside the DAC I had at the time. The music took on a presence that was very hard to explain. Something happened and it was striking in a way I had never before experienced or since.

I fear mentioning these sorts of ideas on these pages will lead to abuse and ridicule! But I hear you.

The digital filter has been known as a problem especially phase or ringing wise. I can see how doing away with it has positive effects. There are manufacturers who have found a way to digitally fix the shifting against a control signal. I know DCS has a chip on the output of the laser which is used as a template to check against. I think they are one of the only ones.

DCS use principals used in decoding military radar systems in fighter jets. I believe they write the software. Hence the name Digital Communication Systems. An interesting company.

chadeffect August 26, 2008 22:24

Hi Mapman and Muralman1,
These new types of amps can power speakers like the difficult to drive planar speakers. Apogees back in the 80s and 90s did suffer from the fact that there were probably only 5 or so manufacturers that even built worthy amps. These were also very expensive at the time and some still are.

I am unsure about the upsampling and non up sampling DAC situation. I got frustrated with many players and ended up with DCS and DSD. I cant say I am a fan of a valve at line level. Although I am sure there are some good ones. I used the Audio aero SE reference which uses subminature valves on the output. It was a good player. Very musical but also upsampling.

Regarding power conditioning I have used both active and passive conditioning. Try the passives first if you use a lot of power or if you can afford it try both.

Regenerate your sources and preamps if possible, then try passive conditioning on the amps. The new PS audio regenerator works well and will run 1500watts. It is better than the old PS ones and doesnt run hot or make nose like the old ones.

I get on very well with the passive Audio Magic Stealth XXX although it has some mods on it. Some say it sounds bright in their system, but I found it was one of the best I have heard. I also have dedicated mains spur too. All sockets are cryod Oyaide which are very nice and have a rich sound. This has helps drop noise and makes things more focused.

The point I was trying to make regarding some of these mods is that you can get a lot of the things people associate with valves, but without the draw backs. It is still on the neutral side of warm. If that makes sense?

chadeffect August 26, 2008 20:06

After reading some of the posts above I was struck by the accusing nature and finger pointing aspects. And thats just me! Although quite entertaining.

We should be here to help each other and ourselves get the best out of the gear we have. Especially if some are more experienced than others. I guess this is where the problems start.

Maybe I shall start on the subject that has caused some of the discord.

OK! ICE power (sorry Flo) especially BC REF1000 ICE power amps...

They are very very transparent. I have found to bring out the layering and "tube like" sweetness and fluidity you have to look after the power supply by feeding clean power first. This will bring more focus and better frequency extremes.

Once that is done, gold is your key to richness! What I mean by that is replace the power inputs and outputs on your filter and wall socket with gold type contacts (for ouputs I use Oyaide ones). This brings out the timbre and gives more solid imaging and weight. Especially with Oyaide ones.

Input is more difficult as few manufacturers make them in gold. Furutech make one with screw down terminals. This is a double bonus as you can bypass the terrible cheap switch and the many tin spade connectors between the switch and the board (you control on/off from your filter).

Just these simple changes will bring a focus and warmth in the midrange and air to the treble that brings performers into your room with great naturalness if you have the resolution in the first place. For those of you who find these amps dry or mechanical in the treble or unnatural somehow start here with proper interconnects and cabling.

If anyone cares or is interested I will post the other simple ways I have found to bring these ICE boards to audiophile life. These extra ordinary amps show up EVERYTHING in the chain.

(Take great care wiring up your sockets correctly and make sure the power is off and so on. Its not worth dying for!)

chadeffect August 25, 2008 08:50

HI Mapman,
tell me what it reads and I will find you something. Wavs/Aifs/etc?

chadeffect August 23, 2008 17:46

Hi mapman,

The room is not bad at all. I have no real problems in the bass department really. Plenty of deep, tuneful, controlled bass with a kind of air about it with lots of texture.

The Virtual dynamics cables are the finest I have heard for this. It seems to make up for some sensitivity in the speaker and lets the amps grip the drivers.

I had subs before, but I was hardly using them so I sold them. It was great for movies though! Silly deep bass but fun. Not much use for music. Remember the Apogee goes down to 30hz on its own. The subs went to 10hz.

There is nothing down there though. If you look at the music through spectrum monitor you will see nothing near 30.

Well maybe I will send you a file of 24bit 192khz. Your problem will be reading it and decoding it. As I said to Florian if he wants to hear it I will have my studio computer with me anyway, so it wont be a problem.

chadeffect August 23, 2008 17:24

Florian,
you seem to have a habit of upsetting people. I understand your passion for the speaker though.

If you are giving Giselle one, I think I can speak for some of us on the Gon and say we wouldnt mind a look!

But unfortunately she is dating a American football player so I hope you can run fast or you may find those ribbons stuffed where the sun dont shine.

By the way all joking aside, if you are up for it when you get your speakers done, I could bring over the DCS if you fancy? I will be recording in Berlin in november.

I could even bring some high bandwidth orchestral recordings straight from the studio 192 Khz @ 24 bit completely untouched and straight from the mixing desk.

You will never get a chance to hear that resolution again I doubt. In fact maybe you could come to the recording session and see what I mean by the above comments? Interested?

chadeffect August 23, 2008 16:07

Gallant Diva,

I feel I should clear this up for you.

I have spent a lot of time setting many speakers up in my listening room to get the best out of them. These include Magnepans,quads, Avantgardes, Audio Physics, Cabasse, Reference 3As and many I choose to forget!

The planars have always worked very well in this listening room as have the Avantgarde horns.

The Apogee works very well too. There is a slight toe in. The room correction and measurements I have has confirmed how well it works. The side wall hardly effects it. There is some reinforcement. Just right for my taste. The correction removes 3db of it though.

The placement I have found for the Duettas does mean one channel near the corner, but there is a gap of around 80cm-1m from the bottom corner of the speaker. As explained earlier the picture above was taken with the speakers pushed back for building work at the time.

The Duettas are around 2m from the back wall. Although the back wall is on a slight angel moving away from the speaker . The side walls angle slightly outwards making for a vague "V" shape if you know what I mean. Listening position is in the wide part of the "V".

You commented on a table near the speaker. It is just a small glass side table that moves around to hold a wine glass or remote control when listening. Its nothing to worry about.

The wooden floor boards have been sound proofed with rock wool under them, and I have an extremely thick underlay then thick pile carpet with a heavy wool rug on top. The room is also full of soft furnishing. A large thick sofa is the listening seat. The room is capable ofvery tight bass and has an airy feel to it probably due to the high ceiling and a lot of natural light.

Again as explained elsewhere above I have world famous music producers musicians arrangers and engineers over all the time to listen and relax over a drink or two. I bring test mixes back from world famous recording studios to check the work that has been done during the day etc. It sounds as it should. Fact. If it didnt the system would be changed.

chadeffect August 23, 2008 11:34

Hi guys,

I am blessed with very good sound it took a lot of work and cash.

If Florian and I got together and mixed our equipment I am sure it would be one of the finest systems you could find. The DCS is beautiful. Dont dismiss the amps properly set up either (sorry Flo).

Was anybody suggesting that any of these Apogees were bad? They all have their strengths at the various price points.

Florian has managed to find a very rare Apogee. I am sure it is great. I think all the Apogees I have heard have a "sound". A very nice sound too.

For the more well heeled among us we may be able to tell the difference between an Diva and a Scintilla blind folded.

There are some truths here in this thread though.

1 Apogee made some great sounding speakers.
2 some are suited to various sized rooms.
3 The newer components available today will raise the sound quality by a worth while degree from the originals.

The placement of my speakers is slightly different from the picture above as I explained above, but placement aside, It really sings and gets out of the way.

The duettas in my listening room work beautifully. I doubt I could get anymore out of them.

I have a pair of Divas that are being brought up to the same standard as my Duetta technology wise with all the lesson learned over the years.

I dont think I could reasonably fit anything bigger than the Diva in my listening room. I love my equipment, but I dont want to be dominated by it. Its not the 80s anymore. Gear should be heard and not seen as much as possible, well until someone asks "wow that sounds great what is it?" Well my friend this is an Apogee and...

chadeffect August 22, 2008 19:57

Muralman1,
I am glad people are getting warmed up here.

As to the placement of my speakers, the picture above is an old one and doesnt really show where the speakers are normally situated in my listening room.

At the time of the picture above I just had the left channel pushed far into the corner while I had building work completed. Maybe I should retake a picture and post it. There is a much larger gap between the wall and the speaker.

It is an interesting point that the room correction has helped in getting the very last bit of solid soundstage detail. Maybe at the expense of some image size.


This Florian vs Chad debate started because one of us had a bad experience with an amp technology and one of us had a good one. Nothing new there...

chadeffect August 22, 2008 09:56

Florian,
the studio grand is 84 or 85db/watt planar speaker, built to take maybe 400w if you are lucky.

You have no hope in hell of dynamics like an full horn system. Have you heard a proper 100db/watt or over horn speaker ever?

You could never put enough power through your Apogee to compete. Try to put a few thousand watts through your Apogee and you will have a nice warm Apogee fire. It would just melt.

chadeffect August 21, 2008 23:38

Florian,

I like our little conversations.

I have not positioned myself with anyone I believe. I did not realize if I had an opinion, or spoke to any specific person, I was part of one group or another.

As to your great experience, maybe you have more or less than me. That we shall never really know. You do not sound like you have any meaningful experience. To be honest it is not something that concerns me. Your unhappiness and deep need to be right says it all. Audiophilia can be terrible obsessive illness.

You do seem to forget I am a professional. I live in recording studios and have access to music long before it gets mastered and put out on whatever format. Long before it is dithered down to consumer rates in stereo or surround.

The colorations and nuances we are listening to in our respective Hifi systems are tiny in comparison to the ability of the gear I use each day.

You want valves? I can give you valves. You want more width or depth in your soundstage? Easy. You want more weight at 50hz or better highs? No worries.

This is why I dont think you fully understand what your gear is really doing. You have only heard a source which you have had no part in creating on it. I dont think you have heard the source while it was being recorded to know why it sounds this or that way. All you have heard, I believe, is music through this speaker or that etc.

I believe the point is to get as close to the original performance as is possible. This does not mean what sounds best to you in your room every time.

The reasons you dont like this amp or that speaker is down to a set of small, but important details. All of which can be fixed to a point ,especially if you know what you are looking for. Your needs probably differ to mine, but I bet not by that much.

Unless you have changed your front end gear recently, all you have done is open a giant window onto your system which isnt up to your speaker. This will only ever show up every distortion and imbalanced thing in your chain as you know with all your experience. This is why it is a hopeless cause to argue. Just travel down the path do what you can.

I like you Florian. You have gone for it. Good for you. I have to. The problems my system faced have been isolated and dealt with as best as can be done today. Cant you respect that? It is all fun for me.

You didnt get on with an amp and have been bugging me ever since. Maybe you just missed something? I have had many many amps and incarnations of systems, some way beyond what you have had. You feel, as do some others that something in the treble of my amp could be better. It is not a problem. There are ways to solve it, even with my speakers! All other amps have many faults too. It is just a question of what you are willing to put with?

chadeffect August 21, 2008 14:35

Florian you are an idiot. You dont need to try so hard my friend. We all love the Apogee.

I am sure you have a large pistol in your trousers.

We have all worked hard to bring the best out of the speakers we have. Just enjoy it. I do as do my friends who come over to listen.

You dont find me on your page telling you that you cannot be taken seriously because you dont have a decent CD player or have the low noise floor I have.

Mine IS better than yours. Who cares?

Now suddenly you are a Graz fan... I told you all along. Remember? You used to believe it made no difference etc. Enjoy and relax. Find a girl.

chadeffect August 21, 2008 00:01

Hi Florian,
long time no hear. Hope you are well and have been enjoying some nice resolution.

You have always been so down on the duetta sig. Its a great speaker and works very well. Its not a Apogee fullrange, but it is not shoe horned into my listening room either.

As I live in one of the most expensive cities on the planet, space is an issue, but the listening room measures approx 6.3m x 5.2m. It has a high ceiling around 2.9m.

One speaker is slightly in a corner, but due to the angle it has little effect. Though the room correction has helped. The work done on these Duetta sigs is extremely fine and it is being feed the best signal I can supply.

I am glad you mentioned the Diva as I have a pair being rebuilt now with new graz ribbons etc. They should be completed soon. The crossover is being filled with mundorf gold in oil caps and copper foil inductors. I will post my findings when they are run in.

I am glad you enjoyed the quote.

You have forgotten that the only bit remaining from the original Apogees in mine are the frames. So I guess you couldnt really say they were from the mid 80s although the date marked is nov 1989.

I believe you too were having new ribbons made for yours. As you will notice these latest ribbons Graz makes are far better than the original and give a great speaker a level of refinement, and a sound so much freer than they could have dreamt of 20 years ago. Jason Bloom would be loving it I am sure.

Maybe the quote should be" Super cars from the 70s and 80s NOT brought up to modern specs can be easily beaten by modern family cars"!

You told me you had some very bad experiences with some amps on your full range. It is a very tricky load, I am sure you would agree, and is terribly inefficient. Maybe whatever you tried could not cope. I am sure there are many that can. Maybe bi or tri amping would solve it if not. I know your front end was probably not up to the rest of the system which wouldnt help the result either.

You are more than welcome to borrow my amps anytime. I would be glad to hear how you get on with them. To be honest you dont need the greatest speaker in the world to notice how good they are.

chadeffect August 12, 2008 14:52

Muralman1,
I have had the same experience too. As you know I have had a few "run ins" with the person I believe you mean. Some of it via email, some on the gon. Much has been removed by audiogon. He was very threatened by the idea of it being "better". But technology move on and fast. You cant hold on to the past.

The greatest super cars from the 1970s and 80s would easily be beaten by an average modern family car these days.

All I can say is the ICE amps are still plugged in. Many pieces of gear have come and gone, but the ICE powered Ref1000s have stayed.

I hope this technology will help stop the elitist idea that you need to spend lots of money and collect obscure gear to get great sound quality.

Maybe it will stop the Highend audio from completely dying out and open it to more people. Class D and switching type amps are here to stay.

Soon with the global pressures on fuel and pollution, I wouldnt be surprised if inefficient electronics will be outlawed or too expensive to use or just taxed to death. We need efficient great sounding gear. I think these amps prove there is hope. I wonder what will come next?

chadeffect August 08, 2008 18:34

Hi Muralman1,

I had my first brush with Bel canto with the EVO gen2 tripath amps. At the time I had 5 or 6 other amps including Audio research VT150monos(the most soulful of amps), Plinius SA reference, Audio Valve Baldur 300, Gamut D200mk2. I was struck by the transparency of the BC Evos. It really was the least colored amp of the bunch. The Gamut was nice too.

When the BC REF1000s came out I had the Jeff Rowland 501monos and when the BC arrived I plugged it in and I have never really looked back other than a couple of mods to the REF1000s.

The ICE power really brought all the rewards of expensive highend amplification in a small box that was extremely powerful and sounded fantastic. Super fast in the way the Halcro DM series is(DM series amps are disturbingly good). The Ref1000 has lots of leading edge information, with a super wide soundsatge. It has no sound or signature that I can detect. The simple mods I have had done have only made it more itself. Bringing more detail and cleaner definition. I feel sorry for other traditional amp manufacturers, as to compete with that performance at that price will be very tough. I couldnt have wished for a better amp. Sorry if I am gushing but I wasted an awful amount of money on expensive gear which now can be beaten in performance by a cheap simple and small ICE based amp. Highend for the masses!

I have seen a few people saying these amps are bad and have all these problems sonically. I can only assume it is showing them their system as it really is. I have found no weakness. I guess if you want coloration buy a different amp. If you want to hear your source buy the BC ref1000s or find a lot more money and by Halcro DM88s.

chadeffect August 08, 2008 11:50

One other note on the Lyngdorf room correction. The bypass "sound" is not exactly the same as the unit being removed. I have noticed a roundness and slight fattening in the bass when compared to the box being completely removed.

The corrected sound though is still outstanding.

chadeffect August 07, 2008 12:28

Ok my impressions of the latest room correction by Lyngdorf. It was supplied clean electricity via filtered mains. The interconnects were by Analysis plus golden oval (balanced XLRs).

wow it works. It works very well indeed. As the unit burnt in the soundstage became more open and detailed and focused. Similar to the addition of the clock. The bass became supremely tuneful and easy to follow.

When the correction was bypassed it became obvious that there was no going back to the sound I had been enjoying before correction. It rendered many aspects of my old sound unlistenable, especially in the bass.

My main worry was that introducing another box on the output of my extremely hi end player would wreck its sound. While there may be the very slightest muting in the highs, it had little or no effect on the its sound. What has been gained is worth any loss IMO.

The other filter options are audiophile fun which will keep you up all night as you play your music collection and select your favourite presets. These presets sound similar to the Audio magic filter matching settings on their power conditioning units, but a little more obvious to the ear. But for me the neutral focus setting was best on the whole.

chadeffect August 04, 2008 20:01

I have been trying out some room correction by Lyndorf today. A good audiophile mate has been hassling me to try it out for ages. So here I am.

I have a pretty nice and well balanced system, so what could it do for me? Well I think the main thing to say is tidy things up. It didnt alter much in my room, but the bass is the largest improvement. It has cleaned it up enough to make for a tight listen. Especially at higher volumes.

I will post more as I flick through the many filter/correction options. But so far nothing bad to report and only an improvement in an already well set up system. Who would have thought it?

chadeffect July 28, 2008 13:49

Haha Tab!

It used to have a very nice rack, but it took up so much space and my room was starting to look like a hifi show room with cables everywhere. So I decided to build it all into the fire place and get my floor back. Not only that but I was becoming a real geek!

If you look closely you will see all the equipment is individually suspended from vibration even in such a tight space. It also has its own regulated and filtered 60 amp mains spurs with oyaide sockets... did mention geek!

chadeffect June 30, 2008 10:43

Yes my cousin had an all Linn system including a 2 box player. I cant remember which in the range it was though.

I was not a fan. It had good dynamics but slightly sterile and grainy from memory. Not refined in the same way. But I cant say how old it was. This was maybe 2-3 years ago. I will find out which model it was.

He replaced all of it with less expensive stuff and got much better sound.

He changed amps to Bel cantos tripath evo gen2 monos and a Stello transport and dac/preamp. It was surprisingly good.

chadeffect June 26, 2008 09:23

Hi Mapman,

DCS make some great gear. The single box Puccini is the lowest in the new range now.

The Scarlatti is so good and I heard it first some time before the Puccini and the Paganini came out. So its unfair to compare, although I suspect the Paganini is probably the best value.

DCS have the finest resolution of anything I have heard. I think some people may have a problem with that kind of honesty from a source. But if your system doesnt need to hide anything then it will be just the thing.

Other players I have owned were Mark Levinson 31.5/30.6, Oracle, Audio Aero Capitole SE, and some other DCS players. Before that digital was rubbish and I dont want to admit to terrible sounding players from the early 90s I had. ouch!

I have heard MF players before like the Tri vista one. The impact of the leading edge and extremely low noise floor leave all the above including the MF players sounding dark, grainy, murky or soft. I was, after a little running in period, stunned that it was possible.

chadeffect June 26, 2008 02:49

Hi JP,
the Apogees where mainly updated and modified by John Oakey/Graz. Although most of the external x over and its parts were chosen and experimented with by me first. The ribbons came from Australia and are the latest offerings from Graz.

After auditioning the best combination of parts, John came and checked it over and we did some final tweaks.

John is based in the UK and is extremely helpful. He has done an excellent job in helping bring my Apogees up to the level they are at now.

I do not bi amp as the duettas are very well driven by the 1000w per channel on tap from the Bel cantos. This seems to be more than enough to bring the ribbons to life. I am trying out bybees now

chadeffect June 05, 2008 09:03

System edited: final tweaking of the Apogee cross over. Mundorf silver/gold in oil caps and a return to Caddock metal film resistors. I am speechless.

chadeffect May 18, 2008 00:03

System edited: The change of cables to Virtual dynamics has been very interesting. They are still burning in so will post findings when they settle. First impressions are of an extremely fast and dynamic cable with the best bass I have heard from a cable! Not quite as open in the highs as the AP golden oval or as 3D in the mids so far...

chadeffect April 29, 2008 15:06

Hi Number 95,
I am glad that you did get a chance to hear the Scarlatti, even if it was not in your own system. It really is a completely different sound isnt it. An amazing machine, but it is a lot of money I know!

The Paganini is meant to be very good too, but not quite up there with the Scarlatti. I just went for the Scarlatti. But if you were going to cut corners, I would say to go for the dac and clock first and use the older transport until you can save up for the transport.

I cannot advise you on that Esoteric combo as I have not heard it. But all I can say is a friend of mine who knows the Scarlatti very well, heard the Scarlatti next to the Esoteric P1/D1 etc on Halcro amps in Japan. He said it was obvious that the DCS was another step forward. He believed it was a little more vivid.

I am sure the Esoteric is very good, but I have a feeling DCS have got something very special and are on their own at the moment. Its time for someone else to equal or better the performance at a cheaper price. But who will it be?

chadeffect March 15, 2008 11:28

Hi Ace427,
the Levinson is a fat and slightly dark sounding player compared to the DCS. It does not have the resolution, leading edge or low noise floor of the DCS elgar plus/verdi la Scala combo. The DCS combo kills it for dynamics, poise and control, leaving the ML sounding fuzzy.

Obviously the DCS Scarlatti is a whole other generation along and there is no comparison other than the scarlatti does sound fat but with mind bending resolution. The scaralatti makes the Levinson sound cloudy, distant, and grainy and just a bit old fashioned now IMO.

Like most electronics, the latest digital sources have come a long way and you probably wouldnt go back. I bet you could beat the Levinson 31.5/30.6 sonic performance with a modest CD player these days, although it would be tough to better the feeling of using such a monster. The ML is a classic.

I have to say I love the Levinson 31.5/30.6. The build quality is second to none, and it always works. It has no strange bugs etc. It is just a battle ship and you can always see the display and you have to love the silent motorized lid. You do feel special using it.

But you have to remember this Levinson came out quite a few years ago now. You probably wouldnt buy a computer from 2002. The ML for state of the art hifi now, is a too little tired. But it is a lovely toy no matter what.

Hope this helps.

chadeffect March 03, 2008 19:23

Hi Gshelley,
yes I had the Verona clock in before. The Verona gives a little more dynamic contrast and a little more focus and speed to the DCS combo IMO.

I found with only the new Scarlatti clock added, the combo takes on a much more natural, solid, and warm presentation with detail beautifully presented. This makes for a very refined, rich sound, with a much less "cool or removed" presentation than before.

In fact the presentation is the finest I have heard and makes the Verona sound a little "hi-fi" or artificial by comparison.

In fact just adding the new clock completely changed my idea of what the DCS sound is or was. Then there is the Scarlatti DAC...

chadeffect February 27, 2008 11:45

Number 95,
obviously the Scarlatti like most hi end gear needs to be burnt in then left on for a day or so to show its true performance. Although it was obvious straight out the box that it was special.

I would love to come and hear it through the 610Ts!

Do let me know how you get on.

Happy listening

chadeffect February 18, 2008 11:28

Number 95,
nice work going through all those amps. I put my hand above the 610T while driving some Wilsons. Much global warming there! I do remember some very hot afternoons listening in the summer.

Which type of 6550s do you use? I found the Svetlana 6550c were the nicest balance. The cryod versions were excellent but expensive.

Another amp to have tried would have been the VTL S400 monos, but I am sure you are in good shape for years to come.

chadeffect February 16, 2008 23:57

Hi Muralman,
You are correct "not stuff"!

Yes I like the scintilla very much but I run into a world of problems with 1 or 2 ohm speakers. This is where my beloved ICE power would fall apart. Maybe the Halcro would drive them.

I did have my eye on the Synergy, which Graz builds under Apogee now. Its a 98db sensitive scintilla! It was very dynamic and beautifully finished. He has gone to town on the magnet array. A major achievement. It was something I wanted to do to mine, but the cost was very high and I would have been better off just buying the Synergy really.

chadeffect February 16, 2008 11:08

Number 95,
I really liked the Audio Aero. Very musical, but a bit soft, with a shade of cloudyness in comparison.

I had the M2 Capitole SE with lastest power supply, cryod tubes and cap upgrades etc. I heard the Prestige which was nice but still from the same kind of world as the capitole SE, but obviously better.

The DCS is in a different world as it should be. Leading edge, dynamics, speed and top to bottom consistency and noise floor are world class. Flow and placement of spacial cues and depth are finest I have heard from CD.

I dont have the Scarlatti transport, but my feeling is while the DAC is amazing the clock is a master piece.

I know the B&W 800s well as I work with them in the studio sometimes although with the diamond tweeters. I can see why you need the 610Ts. Tough to get fast dynamics out of them. In the studio they are tri amped with Classe 400w monos plus subs!

I think you would find the DCS would be a nice combo with the ARC. That kind of detail and leading edge through the ARC qualities would keep you up all night! It would really give you more pace too with tighter bass.

As to cables I use the Analysis plus gold which are very nice cables. but I have Virtual dynamics on order! I havent really played around with cabling on the DCS as it sounded so good with the AP gold. The fire wire cable is important an I use a FW cable from the studio. Its silver and shielded but the Siltech is meant to be the one.

Dont forget some power conditioning!

chadeffect February 16, 2008 10:55

Number 95,
that Audio Research Ref 3 is my favorite Valve preamp of all time. The 610Ts are very nice too of course. A lot of power for tubes. What speakers do you use?

I would try the Scarlatti player direct into your power amps if I were you. I bet it would be an awesome sound. The DAC has 2v and 6v output.

chadeffect February 15, 2008 19:55

Hi number 95.

I would say the Scarlatti is even more detailed than the Elgar plus and Verdi Verona etc. The difference is that it is less cool sounding. Just the new clock seems to stop it from being analytical. In fact it is quite warm and very "real sounding" player. I am a detail junky when comes to audio. I work a lot in recording studios so I am used to hearing things as they are.

I dont believe in hiding detail behind noise and distortion, although I have had very nice results with hifi that does just that. I find if you have the detail at source then you can look for the presentation you like. I have found filtering on the mains can work wonders here. If its on the disk I want to hear it!

chadeffect February 15, 2008 18:51

System edited: Arrival of Scarlatti system. Yes the DAC has now arrived!

chadeffect February 15, 2008 18:39

System edited: The slow but sure arrival of the DCS Scarlatti digital system. Unbelievable sound. Puts an end to any discussion about digital vs analogue etc. The most natural, real, "reach out and touch" sound... and thats just with the clock added! The DAC arrives next week. Cant wait. Lives in a different universe to any cd player I have ever heard.

chadeffect February 10, 2008 11:05

I have to say I wouldnt say no to a pair of Scintillas. Although the last thing I need is more stuff!

chadeffect January 24, 2008 21:40

Ha ha Muralman1,
I think we have the right speakers! I dont think it is just a question of hairs on the back of the neck. The Avantegardes would probably take the hair off the top of your head too!
Which CD players do you rate?

chadeffect January 24, 2008 20:07

Hi Muralman1,
I am quite happy with my sound. You are welcome to have a listen.

The hifi has very little signature itself. No noise. And thanks to the clean mains and its own spur and filtering there is no hash or smudging if you know what I mean? I worked hard on all that. 2x 60 amper feeds @ 240v too.
I agree with you. The less stuff in the way the better. I wont get us started on the ways of the valve again. I am worn out!
I will probably be shot by the speaker police but...have you heard the Avantgarde horns? They have the kind of impact I believe you are searching for and like. Its like listening on steroids and using probably 20 watts if that!
I know you are like me an Apogee lover. But you have to work quite hard to get a large ribbon to do impact in that kind of way. I use very fast and powerful amps to do it. But to get the integration and seemless presentation of an Apogee from a horn is another whole other journey. I dont know of any speakers that can do it with such grace like an Apogee.

Does the zanden use no oversampling/upsampling? I seem to remember its purist like that. I would love to hear one in my set up as I have only heard it on Avalons with their own Zanden valve amps( 300B i think). Dont get me started now

chadeffect January 24, 2008 16:27

Hi Muralman1,

It has been a while since I last heard a non oversampling machine.
I have found you have to work hard to get CD players to sound at their best.
Apart from the usual burn in and leaving it powered up, cables, internal fuses and unclean connectors can make surprising differences. Deoxit is the best cleaner I have found in that it sounds good straight away.

I used to use studio contact cleaners in the past and found it made my system sound bright then would ease back to a more natural presentation after a while.

chadeffect January 23, 2008 20:18

Hi Muralman1
To be honest the amps we were speaking about are not really class D but switching amps. Ah well...

On Oversampling etc I cannot really say. Its all about how it is done.
DCS works well upsampling to DSD but the firewire connection is meant to be a weak point. I use it upsampling to DSD with no filters in for Red book or DSD(obviously for dsd).

That Reimyo CDP777 is beautiful too. Its an XRCD player using the K2 chip set.

I think the Levinson now shows its age. But was one of the first upsamplers I believe. Lovely at the time. The later players seem to be more dynamic with more detail and better tracking of phrase and dynamic. Freer sounding with less grain.

chadeffect January 20, 2008 23:19

Hi Florian,
Resolution? I have seen your CD player man. By todays standards its like an ipod . The players we were discussing on email are in a totally different league.

You need valves I understand why now. Its cool.

chadeffect January 20, 2008 23:03

Hi Muralman1,
we are all a little that way. Some people dont want change.

I love the fact this technology and performance is becoming cheap and competing with extremely exotic equipment from the past. (Not that Halcro is cheap!) It will force the market to change and maybe we will get more value for money.

You know I have some very good valve simulators on my computer? Saves a whole bunch of hassle! I dont think these guys will go for it though!

Your cables sound like fun, but right now I will have to pass, but will take you up on it soon.

chadeffect January 20, 2008 13:09

Hi florian.
The tollerances you speak of are everything. The thickness of the glue dictates the weight of the ribbon etc. I know the original Apogees were not the best made speakers in the world, and that each one was slightly different. The Inductors while using thick wire were kind of hopeless. Loosely turned. These are all things that can be easily addressed now.

Look reality check. No recording studio worth its salt would ever use valve power amps for any monitoring. They use valve mic preamps because of their colourations which they use to create a nice fat sound. But for monitoring? Never. Well maybe in the 1950s 60s or 70s.

You questioned my resolution. You are the one with huge amounts of grainy Sprague Caps and magnan cables with your amps arent you?.

Wow what fun we are having. Best to you florian.

chadeffect January 19, 2008 21:55

Muralman1,
you got it right there. This is the problem. Do you want to hear what IS there or not? Many dont know the difference and they are chasing an "idea" of what the recording is, but in fact dont know what it really is. They know what sounds good to them at the time but thats it.

chadeffect January 19, 2008 01:01

Hi Florianw,
I take your point with drivers, but they too have come a long way with modern glues and more powerful magnets computer controlled laser cutting etc.

Valve amps...
I have seen your wonderful set up and promise you that the levels of distortion your speakers are capable of showing are incredible if given the chance. I was shocked when I moved away from big powerful valve amps like audio research/audio valve/Lamm etc at how much grain or lack of speed and control I had got used to. Especially when driving low sensitivety speakers like apogee or magnepan. Let alone the huge amounts of electricity (global warming!)

Valve amps tend to cover up problems in the system in a very nice musical way especially the older ones, but at the same time cover other gems hidden in the recording.

Come over and have a listen. Class D amps do have their problems and some are better than others of course, but with a good one... heaven.

I can only dream of your grands with Halcro monos!

chadeffect January 19, 2008 00:13

Hi Esotheric,
haha banjo! The soundlabs or the new martin logan cls may be the only options for a modern electrostatic speaker. I havent heard the innersound but it uses subs. The quad is more of a headphone!

I am still very confused by these flat earth valve amp lovers. We all know their virtues, but most decent amps are capable of all of that now, plus low noise, bass control, better highs & short signal path. I said to someone on the gon valve technology is over 100 years old. What other technology would you want that is that old or is still relevant in the 21 century?

chadeffect January 17, 2008 17:30

Esotheric my man,
if i had to be buried I think 2 DM88s laid end to end may not quite do it. Unfortunately i would need 3! You might get a deal on it as there need not be any electronics inside, The question is weather I need the wooden feet too?

Its funny to mention NAD in these pages. Although judging some of the guys on here they might be better of using NAD...oh the midrange is so life like and suddenly my ESL63 hits 120db

chadeffect January 16, 2008 21:37

Hi Gallant diva,
Audio research is one of my favorite amps. Very musical, and have soul. But in comparison to the Halcro and the Bel canto its bass is not as lightening quick or defined in the lowest registers. Then there is the noise floor! Nothing can compete with these digital switching amps for low noise and power delivery especially the Halcro. They are mind bendingly good! My Bel canto has had quite a lot of work done to it and out performs the standard one by quite a bit, but either way the Ref1000 is a bargin. Most manufacturers should be ashamed when they hear what it is capable of. What I would say though is if you dont want to really hear your source as it is, stay away from the BC and the Halcro.
The Halcro is the finest amp I have ever heard bar none.

chadeffect January 14, 2008 22:52

Hi Muralman1,
the duettas ribbons were made by Graz in Austrailia. They are built to much higher standards and use the latest developments in glues and laser cutting. They are lighter and stronger than the originals. Then the surrounds are made from a new material which dampens the panel much more effectively and will not rot in ultra violet light. The ribbons were then fitted by John Oakey. The cross over, which is now external, is my work with lots of help from many sources including all the original Apogee sources. The subs are the icing on the cake. These are just the ticket and add some foundation.

Oh 42". Love your Scintillas by the way. I have heard the Synergy which is an improved Scintilla with 98db sensitivity!

chadeffect January 10, 2008 22:07

My main speakers are some rebuilt and pimped up Apogees Duetta signatures with external cross overs and Audio physic subs. Subs are active and have 600watts/side. Apogees driven with 1000watts a side monos

chadeffect January 10, 2008 00:01