When I retired in 2000 I had nothing to do and lot s of time to do it in. I thought that music was interesting and that Id try getting a really good system and seeing if I enjoyed listening to music. I bought a series of NAD and Onkyo receivers and amps and a pair of Dunlavy SCIV. The sound was much better than Id heard in a system and I thought this was great. I bought hundreds of cd, listened to the masters and decided I really liked music, most music. I still dont really understand atonal or people yelling at each other. I used to think rap was what people did on doors and tables. Id like to keep my ignorance in place on that one.
Then one evening I was having dinner at my usual restaurant hangout and after drinking a bottle of wine with a man who lived a few doors down from the restaurant, he invited me to listen to his music system. I was stunned. He had a Levinson Amp (331) with Teal speakers and Meridian cd and preamp with silver cables.WOW! I was in love. Id never imagined that sound from a machine could be like that. I do owe Tony a thank you, for he showed me the light. A switch truly went on for me that night. Thank you.
After about ten minutes I realized that my ears hurt. I knew it was too bright, but ZAP!
I wanted to hear that clarity, that detail and I wanted to hear it for more than ten minutes without my ears hurting.
So, out went the receivers (actually I gave them to my three children) and in came Levinson gear. Since, Ive been through ten or so amps and a few speakers and a few cables, cd players and turntables.
Ive learned a lot of what works and whats smoke. In wine, everything you need to know about it is in the glass youre drinking, right now. Nope, you dont need to know the grape pickers name, nor the vintner, nor the name of the town, plot or mix of fruit.
You just need to know whats in your glass. TODAY. I suppose by now youve figured out that Ive tried a few glasses of wine. Yup. I stopped guessing how many bottles Ive participated in after the 50,000 mark. No, that wasnt yesterday. The benefit Ive found of getting old is that you cant remember when you stopped remembering.
Ive come to see audio in exactly the same light as wine. Im interested in what works, I can hear and I can feel. Once it takes an explanation to decide if its there, its not. If it feels like the music is wrong, lifeless, brittle, bright or skewed, toss the gear that caused it.
Around 2003 I bit the bullet and flipped for the design and engineering of a room by Rives Audio. It cost me the rebuild of our home. I could not find a single contractor willing to take on the room project. They clearly were so nervous about the details that they would not do it. On August 25, 2004 the room was nearly finished and the equipment was placed in it to hear what money can buy.
Its pretty damn good!
Its truly the best of everything Ive heard in equipment and design. I grant those others with similar situations that theres may be better rooms and sound, but I havent been to visit them and cant say from experience.
What stands out to me in and from my room is that it feels small. It is actually 247 feet long and 152 feed wide where the speakers are located. The ceiling runs from 91 to 116 at the peak. The walls are not parallel, nor is the ceiling with the floor. And it does feel small. I believe it a combination of the oversize chair on a platform along with the monster truck sized speakers. They are 76 tall and 30 deep. When I have the equipment along side the chair, there isnt much room to get past. I think Im going to make a change in the seating. There goes my retirement fund.
The technical side of the room is Von Schweikert VR11's, Two DarTZeel stereo amps tri-wired, EMM Labs DCC2,Emm Labs CDSD Jena Labs interconnects and speaker wires, Jena Labs with a separate electrical panel fed from the top of the main panel and a separate HVAC system with acoustical dampening. The room is a floating system by Kinetics and what you see is in fact floating on a separate floor four inches below the current floor. The walls were built on the floating floor producing substantial isolation from the rest of the house. The rooms below are treated as well. There is a lot of sheetrock hanging on our walls. Waaay too much.
Having the room designed by Rives produced a set of plans which my licensed architect reviewed and then added support for. We now have two steel beams and three wood beams supporting the floor below the floor.
Pertussons corollary to Murphys Law raised its ugly head and true to it, No job is so simple that it cant be done wrong. In spite of excellent design, engineering and effort, neither the construction manager nor those at Rives Audio ever asked each other if the plans they were each talking about were the same. They werent. Rives revised the plans and the contractor did not have them. Only months into the project when it became obvious that there were differences while on conference calls, did I learn that I wouldnt be having front bass traps and that the window was offset. The first question that should be asked between designer and contractor is, what version plans do you have?
Issues arose during construction including isolating the steel columns and room below the audio room sonically from the audio room. One is my childrens living room and the other is the boiler room. Each has loud distracting noises in it. We used a hanging isolated ceiling in the living room to keep the psycho music and video from being heard upstairs. That works well. The boiler needs more isolation and we will build a room within the boiler room to isolate it from the HVAC for the audio room.
There are two prices to pay for huge speakers. One is the obvious lotsa money. The other is the speakers weigh in around 1000 pounds each, come in three shipping crates and need a couple of power lifters to install. Yes, call the gym first, before ordering to insure the availability of help. Our room is in the rear of the house which puts it ten feet above the driveway with no paved smooth walk to the rear. Problem! This problem needs to be addressed. It took five hours to install the speakers between bringing the six crates to the deck and actually hoisting them in place. The bookcase you see in the pictures is the actual door to the room. It is not a very wide opening and presents problems to bring in large objects. The speaker were tuned by Albert Von Schweikert and Kevin Malmgren. They measured the room and tuned and placed them in one night. Speaker placement is not critical, but position combined with seating position produces a variety of hall images.
I still am working on my vinyl setup and there are a few small details left in the room to do.
If youre crazy enough about audio and have the willingness and ability to make it happen, I recommend taking the plunge into extreme audio. Its a constant amazement that such beauty can be reproduced, for me (and you too).
Bill, i just 'googled' 'bow window' and lots of examples of bow windows came up.
why do you want inward opening windows?
the bow windows pictured either on the googled sites 'crank' open to the outside or are 'double-hung'.
my last room had a bay window which is similar to a bow window and the windows were outward opening with no problem. if windows are inward opening any rain or weather will tend to be brought into your room. there also may be local building codes that may preclude inward opening windows.
i do agree with Richard that a bow window would have acoustic advantages and also look stunning in your room, compared to your current flat window.
well while I love your nissan , I am much bigger grand prix open wheel fan. On your turntable search. there is an Austrailian turntable that looks like it is in a suitcase. I saw it a show but hey were going to dinner when I got here. it is pictured in Stereophile.
The simple answer as to shipping is that they come in three sections apiece. Other than the weight and cost of each piece, they're actually no problem to install.
I really don't find them imposing, just large. I deal with them as though they were two dimensional. It makes me feel better.
I haven't been 5'2" in a while and have no perspective on height. But, when I'm sitting at 47" I'm not overwhelmed.
Good grief, do the speakers come in sections or in the largest crates ever made? How on earth were they moved into the room and then set up? I simply can't imagine how imposing they must be, especially for those 5'2" visitors!
Now I really have to finish the room. I've been listening on and off during the last six months. Since I've decided to sell the house in France, I have a renewed commitment to completing the final details.
I'm selling the VYGER and getting a smaller footprint turntable. I'm getting the Dartzeel preamp/phono stage. I'm getting a Grand Prix Audio stand and putting the EMM gear and the Pre-amp with power supply and the turntable on it.
There's going to be some room to move around.
I need to build more cd cases on the sides above the moldings.
The baffle boxes for the a/c system need to be made to quiet the machine noise on the return side.
Richard Byrd told me to have a bow window made to fit inside the room. Yes, facing inside. It's a great idea. But, no one has yet made a casement that opens in, that I have found.
I am trying to figure out who makes the european style windows which are inward opening and have handles which turn and one opens the window with them. They would be ideal for making up a bow window.
Now, if anyone knows where in the US I can get such windows in wood, tell me.
I still need to build a over the top ground for the service. I'm told that I need copper pipe, drilled through, brazed together and tinned. No problem, I'll just call the ground store and ask for a #1 ground. Sure. Somewhere in the deep recesses of winter I'll be drilling six foot sections of 1" copper pipe. I'm looking forward to telling the zink plater guy that I have a six foot by two foot kind of ??? trellis that I want plated inside and out and yeah, by the way, I want you to tin the 1/2" thick wire that's attached to it.
I'm sure I'll be well received.
Then, It'll be on to digging a hole big enough to sink a kids seven foot diameter swimming pool into and put my then world class ground into, followed by the runoff from my house leaders to keep it wet and presto, I have the greatest audio ground in Northern Westchester County.
I have a similar issue with ceiling height--I'm in a basement with a drop ceiling--but I've found that I'm getting similar results to a lot of people with 9' or 10' ceilings. I'm listening in the nearfield with my VR-9s, and I think that helps take the ceiling mostly out of the equation--maybe with a little loss in sense of space in the top octaves. I don't think nearfield is a terribly viable option with the 11s--I listened to them in the nearfield at CES 2005, and I liked them much better farfield--but I don't think you should be overly concerned with ceiling height, if the pictures of your room are accurate. A little extra height may have some minimal benefit, but I don't think it would nearly be worth the cost.
I was listening this weekend with a house full of guests. I considered just the question you speak to. I thought, " is there an optimum speaker height for my room (bigger presumably) which would improve the results?
As to racing, my Nissan's engine blew at Watkins Glen in June and I'm out of the series for the rest of the year. Back to fast open wheel racing, much slower than GTP/Group C.
ok...nothing to say about the system cause it's way out of my league...but I gotta say the cars are sweeeeeeet!!!! (out of my league also) I knew the owner of Seattle International Raceway when I lived there and was invited out to a few private track days. Had the priveledge of taking a few laps (as a passenger) in a 66 Ford GT-40 and have got to say it was quite an experience. Then...taking my old 88 911 out on the track for 7 laps...the whole track to myself (everybody else was eating lunch)...that hooked me...now if i only had the money to pursue auto racing as a hobby.
225 mph...drool.
hope it's cool that a poor schlub like myself posted on your system page.
regards
Ellery
p.s. how much is that trick racing gasonline running now per gallon ;o)
Thank you. It has been worth the effort. When equipment breaks, I wonder about it. But, listening as I am now, I love the total results. I'm in my office, about sixty feet outside the room and it sounds like being in the back of a big hall. Not distant, just not direct. In the room it's pinpoint, accurate, articulate. What I never thought would happen is that we would be able to listen while not being in the room. It's great all the time. The world's most expensive elevator music.
Alex Peychev is my friend who is the designer of my player. He is showing some of his stuff in NY show. www.aplhifi.com He is an engineering genious, and an audio afficionado. He may even be able to help you tweak you system and room to another level.
Bill, I plan on being in NY for the show at the end of April. I would love to get together, as long as your in town. Thanks for the invite. If Alex has time, maybe he can join us too, if it's OK with you.
I've heard many of the great cd players and cd/dac combos at the shows and in friends rooms. I have never heard anything that compares with the detail, dynamics and clarity of the DCC2/CDSD combo. Rather than me spending more money, why don't you come visit and listen to my system, I'll supply the wine.
It'll be cheaper for us both. I've never heard a system anywhere that compares to the results of my system/room combination. There were parts of others systems I like, and some I like very much, but each had their defects compared to live music. That and that alone is my criteria.
Bill, IMHO, and in my search for the ultimate digital, why don't you at least try the APL 3910, if you do not feel it betters the Meitner gear in every way, I will buy it from you. I gotta tell you, with the BEST digital in your system, you would have less desire for vinyl, PLUS more room for vinyl. JMO, but, I will put my $$$ where my mouth is. Bill, this is from my heart, plus, my bonus would be coming to visit you, AND enjoying you Fabulous system. I will bring the wine.
I'm not familiar with the Verdier. I've heard about it, but have not known anyone with one or heard one. The VYGER and Rockport are straight forward enough once dialed in when they have no pump or motor problems. Well cared for they just work. But that's true about everything. I'm really no longer worried that the VYGER won't work.
It's really a function of the "Pain in the ass theory", ... at some point something becomes such a pain in the ass that it's not worth dealing with any longer. It may work perfectly well, but not for me.
I'm not there with the VYGER. Close, but not there. Had the platter not spun this week, I would have been there.
Now that I know I have a pump issue, it will be easy enough to replace the pump next week and start listening to vinyl.
It really is a space issue to me. If you look at the location were the VYGER is placed, it leaves only the space in front of it for an electrics rack. No problem. But, then I have no place on that wall for a low CD rack to match the one which is going on the opposite rear wall below the panels.
With a table top turntable I can get one equipment rack and place the turntable on top of it. Then wires are shorter and I still have below the panels to put CD's.
I'm not decided. The VYGER is one bizarre but cool looking turntable and I'm still attracted to unique, different. Of course it plays records great too.
It is an amazing system. As I recall you had the rockport and now the vyger. While I don't have much experience with either, I have only seen the vyger, it would seem logical that you go for a more practical turntable. In the league of the rest of your equipment I'm sure you already know but the sme30 is there, it still has a lot of parts. The vpi has its fans as do such things as the teres. Another alternative which a good friend has is the verdier (you go to france too). It is fascinating in its simplicity, a 50 lb platter with rare earth magntets that floats on air. It seems you have seen the light and the rig is keeping you from music. I have a simple turntable and have thought about updating it but it has worked so well, gives me no hassles and sounds wonderful that I can't force myself to chage. Good luck in your quest, and thanks for sharing the journey with us
After reading your post I thought am I really done for a while? No, I'm still thinking through the logistics of having a VYGER turntable. Even though it now works and I am awaiting finding out how good it is, I think that I'm going to switch from the VYGER to a SME30 in the near future, due to the space in my room. I have so little space for additional CD storage. I can only put an equipment rack next to the door and that leaves the to the rear of where the equipment rack can go to put the cd rack and behind my chair to put the VYGER if I want to move it from where it is. Separating turntable and phono stage is the worst thing I can do, because it increases the length of the interconnect from the turntable to the phono stage. So, either I have to dump one of the additional CD racks or go to a table top turntable... SME30.
I started with this because it's not so easy to stop.
As to amps, I'm not familiar with the TRL's. Good luck. Hope you enjoy them. The DarTZeels do the best job that I've heard. I felt that way about the Tenor 75's a few years ago. I suppose it's only a matter of time till that changes again. The beauty is that they're solid state.
But I do miss the glow of the Tenor output tubes. I loved the lights at night. I also saved on heat in the winter.
I have returned to listening every day to music and it's a lot of fun again.
All I can say is WOW, great friggin system. I csn feel your pain trying to get it just right. I do not have the $$$ for your level, but I have been going nutz too. Please, take a little time, and enjoy for a while, then move forward again.
I am looking to get my final amp(s)for at least a while, and am waiting for a pair of TRL GT-200's to be completed, see you love these new DarTzeels, do you think your search is really over now? Have you ever heard the Tube Research amps?
Thanks in advance, and enjoy your awe inspiring system
I have the VYGER turning. I learned that the pump seals are blown and I need a new pump. Bruce Fetherling of Acoustic Dreams went through the unit with me by phone and I was able to determine the correct piping. The record spins. I never thought that would be a challenge. I'm awaiting the new pump and I'll begin playing records. I still need a practical pre-amp with phono stage and volume control. One step at a time.
I haven't been able to get the pump to work correctly. I followed the instructions in the manual and directions that Bruce Featherling sent me. putting it together has been a frustrating experience and frankly, I'm running out of interest. My prior Rockport Serius II took about an hour to put back together and I just listened to music. The pump was never a problem and the whole system always worked. Contrary to a lot of comments I've had over the years about Rockports, it was the single least troubled piece of equipment I can ever remember having. Maybe this is cosmic payback for having the only Serius II that ever worked right?
Jonathan Tinn lent me a one piece phono stage to try with the VYGER, I wish I could.
HELP!
I'm drowning in my VYGER.
I'll call Bruce again and ask him for help. I'm sure I can figure out how to make it work if I try hard enough.
If anyone can reach out and help me here, I'd really appreciate it.