When I retired in 2000 I had nothing to do and lot s of time to do it in. I thought that music was interesting and that Id try getting a really good system and seeing if I enjoyed listening to music. I bought a series of NAD and Onkyo receivers and amps and a pair of Dunlavy SCIV. The sound was much better than Id heard in a system and I thought this was great. I bought hundreds of cd, listened to the masters and decided I really liked music, most music. I still dont really understand atonal or people yelling at each other. I used to think rap was what people did on doors and tables. Id like to keep my ignorance in place on that one.
Then one evening I was having dinner at my usual restaurant hangout and after drinking a bottle of wine with a man who lived a few doors down from the restaurant, he invited me to listen to his music system. I was stunned. He had a Levinson Amp (331) with Teal speakers and Meridian cd and preamp with silver cables.WOW! I was in love. Id never imagined that sound from a machine could be like that. I do owe Tony a thank you, for he showed me the light. A switch truly went on for me that night. Thank you.
After about ten minutes I realized that my ears hurt. I knew it was too bright, but ZAP!
I wanted to hear that clarity, that detail and I wanted to hear it for more than ten minutes without my ears hurting.
So, out went the receivers (actually I gave them to my three children) and in came Levinson gear. Since, Ive been through ten or so amps and a few speakers and a few cables, cd players and turntables.
Ive learned a lot of what works and whats smoke. In wine, everything you need to know about it is in the glass youre drinking, right now. Nope, you dont need to know the grape pickers name, nor the vintner, nor the name of the town, plot or mix of fruit.
You just need to know whats in your glass. TODAY. I suppose by now youve figured out that Ive tried a few glasses of wine. Yup. I stopped guessing how many bottles Ive participated in after the 50,000 mark. No, that wasnt yesterday. The benefit Ive found of getting old is that you cant remember when you stopped remembering.
Ive come to see audio in exactly the same light as wine. Im interested in what works, I can hear and I can feel. Once it takes an explanation to decide if its there, its not. If it feels like the music is wrong, lifeless, brittle, bright or skewed, toss the gear that caused it.
Around 2003 I bit the bullet and flipped for the design and engineering of a room by Rives Audio. It cost me the rebuild of our home. I could not find a single contractor willing to take on the room project. They clearly were so nervous about the details that they would not do it. On August 25, 2004 the room was nearly finished and the equipment was placed in it to hear what money can buy.
Its pretty damn good!
Its truly the best of everything Ive heard in equipment and design. I grant those others with similar situations that theres may be better rooms and sound, but I havent been to visit them and cant say from experience.
What stands out to me in and from my room is that it feels small. It is actually 247 feet long and 152 feed wide where the speakers are located. The ceiling runs from 91 to 116 at the peak. The walls are not parallel, nor is the ceiling with the floor. And it does feel small. I believe it a combination of the oversize chair on a platform along with the monster truck sized speakers. They are 76 tall and 30 deep. When I have the equipment along side the chair, there isnt much room to get past. I think Im going to make a change in the seating. There goes my retirement fund.
The technical side of the room is Von Schweikert VR11's, Two DarTZeel stereo amps tri-wired, EMM Labs DCC2,Emm Labs CDSD Jena Labs interconnects and speaker wires, Jena Labs with a separate electrical panel fed from the top of the main panel and a separate HVAC system with acoustical dampening. The room is a floating system by Kinetics and what you see is in fact floating on a separate floor four inches below the current floor. The walls were built on the floating floor producing substantial isolation from the rest of the house. The rooms below are treated as well. There is a lot of sheetrock hanging on our walls. Waaay too much.
Having the room designed by Rives produced a set of plans which my licensed architect reviewed and then added support for. We now have two steel beams and three wood beams supporting the floor below the floor.
Pertussons corollary to Murphys Law raised its ugly head and true to it, No job is so simple that it cant be done wrong. In spite of excellent design, engineering and effort, neither the construction manager nor those at Rives Audio ever asked each other if the plans they were each talking about were the same. They werent. Rives revised the plans and the contractor did not have them. Only months into the project when it became obvious that there were differences while on conference calls, did I learn that I wouldnt be having front bass traps and that the window was offset. The first question that should be asked between designer and contractor is, what version plans do you have?
Issues arose during construction including isolating the steel columns and room below the audio room sonically from the audio room. One is my childrens living room and the other is the boiler room. Each has loud distracting noises in it. We used a hanging isolated ceiling in the living room to keep the psycho music and video from being heard upstairs. That works well. The boiler needs more isolation and we will build a room within the boiler room to isolate it from the HVAC for the audio room.
There are two prices to pay for huge speakers. One is the obvious lotsa money. The other is the speakers weigh in around 1000 pounds each, come in three shipping crates and need a couple of power lifters to install. Yes, call the gym first, before ordering to insure the availability of help. Our room is in the rear of the house which puts it ten feet above the driveway with no paved smooth walk to the rear. Problem! This problem needs to be addressed. It took five hours to install the speakers between bringing the six crates to the deck and actually hoisting them in place. The bookcase you see in the pictures is the actual door to the room. It is not a very wide opening and presents problems to bring in large objects. The speaker were tuned by Albert Von Schweikert and Kevin Malmgren. They measured the room and tuned and placed them in one night. Speaker placement is not critical, but position combined with seating position produces a variety of hall images.
I still am working on my vinyl setup and there are a few small details left in the room to do.
If youre crazy enough about audio and have the willingness and ability to make it happen, I recommend taking the plunge into extreme audio. Its a constant amazement that such beauty can be reproduced, for me (and you too).
I understand that audio room design within a new construction is straight forward and easy on the budget. So, if that were true, I'd ask, "are you planning a room in your new house?" It's easy now, hard and expensive later.
I know your not going to believe this, but I am not building a new home, I found this great 4k sq/ft house that is already there so it just seems to make sense. Its a truly unusual building that will take a lot of work to make me happy, but I am willing to make the commitment and have on of the most unusual houses in the area... After I close on it and move in you'll have to stop by and experience the wackiness first hand ;)
I'm glad you're enjoying the music. Did you change what you listen to as well as equipment?
Not much changed at all, just more music - even you will admit you can never have to much music.
My seating position follows my path through life. I purchased the chair after sitting it it at the showroom on a few occassions. I felt it was one of the ugliest chairs I could remember, but was so comfortable that I thought, "what the hell" and ordered it. After sitting in the smaller leather chairs for a few months, the "Leopold chair" arrived and the music was flat and lifeless everytime I sat in the chair. I then measured my ear height from the ground in each chair. Voila', in the leather chairs, my ears were 47" from the ground and in the comfortable chair my ears were 36" from the ground. I then measured the mid line of the ribbon tweeter and it's 47 1/2". So, by buying the world's most expensive and ugly chair, I managed to screw up the music in my room. I won't tell you how much the chair costs, but it was enough that I couldn't make myself throw it away. I decided to raise the chair 11" to put it back where it belonged.
Now, I happen to have a terrific cabinet maker, Geoffrey, who told me he'd handle the platform, which he did, filled it with 700 lbs. of sand and carpeted it with the extra piece of carpet. We have sound traps on the front and custom built trays for the phone and my remote.
But, I don't like the whole thing either. It interferes with the feel of the back of the room and diminishes the space available to walk around.
As to the VR-11's, they are remarkable in their ease of presentation. Given I drive them with 4600 watts, they should be eased using a probable 1-5% of capacity.
Why don't you visit when you're in town and listen for yourself?
Earlier today, I was trying to trap more bass in the front of the room. I've been making 9" wide panels for each corner to lower the low bass and flatten the room out. I have a slight bass hump in the low bass. When I put panels in front of the corners it seems to do the trick. Now to make up the panels and fit them in place and measure the room again.
I understand that audio room design within a new construction is straight forward and easy on the budget. So, if that were true, I'd ask, "are you planning a room in your new house?" It's easy now, hard and expensive later.
I'm glad you're enjoying the music. Did you change what you listen to as well as equipment?
BTW, my question was not meant to cause argument. I see the dimensions of your room but I question why you need to elevate your listening height for proper focus of the speakers.
I do like your room as well as the speakers. Two years ago at CES I got a private demo from Albert. I thought that the room was terrific and if I am not mistaken the front end gear and amp in that room were by VAC. I sat for several hours enjoying everything Albert played. I was awaiting delivery of my X-2's at the time which I thought were heavy enough at 750 lbs each but also with an 800 lb XS sub. My room is also on the 2nd floor and I did give those VR11's consideration.
If you want the best isolation control buy yourself some Aurios Pro. You will never look back. I have them under all of my front end gear as well as my tube amps. BTW, I also use Zoethecus.
Now for a question. I am stunned by your elevated listening position. Is it because these speakers are just too much for the size of your room? Not being critical but rather inquisitive. It just makes no sense to me at all. But boys and our toys. What more can we say?
I read your "blog" entries, sometimes the comments are rather interesting. Having heard your system go through more changes then I'd like to think about, starting with Dunlavy's, then to talon's, to kharma's, then finally ending with Vonschweikert's; not to mention the countless electronics that have come and gone with various system configurations. So, with first hand experience with your system and reading about your growth I do find it interesting - for what ever that's worth ;)
My music is great, I can honestly say I've NEVER been happier enjoying music. I don't contemplate any equipment upgrades at this time, I am a happy music lover.
While writing my last entry, I became aware that this is a blog. When I started out I intended this thread to chronical the experiences I was going through towards my audio end.
I thought I would be in dialogue with others and have some interplay. My personality must drive others off, since I have not had much interplay over more than two years.
I don't belive this will change, but I did expect different results. I feel rather foolish writing into a vacuum.
I've been learning about vibration control and isolation. It's interesting that I've gotten this far and know so little. I put the DCC2, CDSD and 948 on a Zoethecus four shelf unit in the center of the front of the room for ease of use. Bad, bad, bad. When playing a record and walking past the table, my foot thump is transmitted directly to the speakers. Bad, bad, bad. So, I put little rubber mats under the Darumas. A little better. Then I realize that those four 15" drivers with the 1000 watts each might not be improving the music having the table behind them being fired directly at the table. So, I move the stand forward and voila' the imaging improved, and the music became more solid. I also bought a brass puck which improved solidity.
Yeah, I know that many of you already believe that I don't know a brass puck about vinyl.
I am having a cable made to output directly from the tonearm DIN connector to RCA male plugs. I'm going to use an outboard pre-amp and see how much improvement I can get.
Louis at Studiotechnik Dusch... EMT-Profi provided me with a headshell to use my Dynavector cartridge with and is making the cable.
I purchased a PAA3 audio analyzer and set up my speakers with it. I may add surface traps in the front corners to kill off a slight bass hump.
Lot's of improvements in the offing. I'm looking forward to improved vinyl and final room tweeks.
I reduced the anti-skating weight today. It seems to improve dynamics slightly? Why, I have no idea. I also have a set of Daruma's which I put in upside down under the table. They really are better right side up. The soundstage is compressed into th center and still is very closed. One suggestion was time would cure part of the problem which is the cartridge breaking in. If the soundstage opens up it'll be great, but the blacks are kinda grey. I think that a real phono stage is the only cure for that.
Bill, playing vinyl has just got to get better than you describe. With my Walker Proscenium and Aesthetix Io Signature, backgrounds are deep black, the notes just jump out of a dead silent background (other than the ocassional ticks and pops that are inherent with vinyl), the dynamics are explosive (just listen to the 45 rpm Mercury Dorati/Firebird or Dave Brubeck "Take Five"), and clarity and resolution are astonishing. I just wish I had some suggestions to offer for your current configuration. .
I have been listening to vinyl now for a few weeks. I keep wanting more from it. It just doesn't have the deep dynamics I expected. I play audiophile vinly, remakes and original vinyl. There is something missing. The inner detail and dynamics of the music isn't there. I've tried both a Pathfinder and Symphony interconnect from the table to the DCC2.
I would like to believe that the problem is the original EMT phono stage built into the EMT.
The only upscale phono stage I have available is RCA in and out and the EMT is XLR out only.
I can't get my arms around the problem. Is this as good as it's going to get? Will a premier table be radically different? Is the the phono stage, or the pre-amp?
Although I heard much less in the old room, I remember the Rockport and Aesthetix being really black in the silent areas. I get a lot of table rumble so, I believe that the detail is being hidden behind the rumble.
In order to get the volume level I want which is about 75db, I end up with table rumble, or so it sounds like to me.
I don't have other tables available to me at this time and don't have another phono stage available.
Well, it's finally happened. I am listening to vinyl in the new room. The first that I realized was how little I know about turntables and setup. I was priviledged to have bought a setup Rockport and still thank Jack to myself and Andy for the instructions. Arm and cartridge setup was nearly idiot proof with the linear tracking tonearm.
The EMT 929 arm has antiskating weights which were way too heavy. I called Mike Lavigne for help and once again knowledge, experience and talent made a difference. The theory was what I knew nothing about. What in theory should make a difference, did in fact work. Mike explained the relationship between no weight and equal antiskating force should do. It had 3 grams with a 2 gram weight and two 1/2 gram shot. Got rid of the shot and it doesn't skip. Must be okay.
The Dynavector I'm using had a range of 1.8 - 2.2 grams tracking force and I was using 2.06. A friend told me that others were using them with 2.5 or 2.6 grams of force. I tried, but it had too much bass and lost some top end. Went back to 2.0. It evened out the ranges.
I need direction on how to setup this table better.
I tried adjusting the gain on the card below. It seems balanced and when I get the PAA3 I can test channel balance.
I borrowed a Jena Symphony XLR's. I didn't take the Pathfinders. I will this week and see what else is in the music.
Anyone with EMT 948 experience, please tell me about all those things I know absolutely nothing about with the table. Do I need any antiskating weight?
As to the music.
It's really great to have my other six thousand albums available. I'm listening to the Beach Boys endless summer album. It's exciting just to hear music I haven't heard in ages. I'm going to spend the next days listening.
I had flutter and by angling the cartridge slightly towards the spindle, that disappeared.
Duke's place is fabulous.
I'll be taking notes and post with my observations. Given this is a built in line stage of over thirty years age with a middle of the road interconnect. It can only get better, I think.
For years, I didn't realize that liquid gold poured through a sieve would not produce much value. I continuously upgraded equipment and had to near field listen in order to minimize the effects of a really bad room. The only times that I could get the benefits of the increased sonics was when I was between the speakers.
I didn't want to spend the money and make the commitment to have a "great room". Now, all I tell everyone is that it's better to have a great room and a $4000 system than a bad room and a $400,000 system.
If you can't hear the benefits of great equipment, then why not just get a great pair of headphones and skip the room and speakers completely?
Now that my room is really good, everything that happens in it can be heard, which is what we all really want anyway.
I am days away from listening for the first time to vinyl in the new room and am really excited about the effect of the added info and sense of space.
Yes Jane, that is a 1970 turntable on the floor of my listening room. And, no it doesn't make music. How could any turntable in Eichengrun's house make a sound. It would be against the priciples of audio physics.
However, it is possible that when the correct headshell arrives from Germany next week that I may hear vinyl for the first time in this room.
Thanks only to my friend Jonathan loaning me the EMT 948.
It reminds me of the PA system in my high school main office I got the opportunity to see so often years ago. Fond memories.
I'm going to use my Dynavector cartridge and the built in pre-amp into the EMM Labs DCC2.
I'm told it'll be better than good.
Follow up next week.
And yes, I'm getting a stand to put all the equipment on.
I'm borrowing an EMT 948 from my friend. I intend to buy something else, but it will certainly get me by until the DarTZeel pre-amp arrives later this year.
System edited: It's my new clean look. The front of the room will look the same when I get the Grand Prix Audio Monaco for the Pre-amp, Digital and Turntable. Wow. A clean room. Nothing on the marble. Wow. It's not me.
The VYGER is packed and ready to ship tomorrow. The amount of space it gives back is amazing. I'll be able to walk around to the back of the room easily without it.
I learned a really stupid by obvious thing about my equipment and room today. There is a huge improvement in sonics after a few hours of warmup. I don't know why I didn't realize that until today.
Well, I keep learning more about windows than I ever wanted to know. I found a custom window manufacturer who only wants between seven and ten thousand for a custom wood windows. WOW!
I believe I can make this work with a Marvin bay window made in all wood without casement hardware. I'll be checking with them tomorrow. It should be between two and three thousand. It will be interesting to learn how we'll hang this one on an extension jamb that's already in place for the outer window.
The V.Y.G.E.R. is sold and I'm looking forward to the replacement which I have not decided on.
My friend Jonathan Tinn is loaning me an EMT 948 turntable so I can listen to vinyl next week.
The DarTZeel pre-amp should be here by December. Perhaps the baffle boxes for the air conditioning returns can be installed by then also.
The problem is that the outer window(current window) is a triple unit with two casements, each on the outside with a fixed pane in the middle.
It is my intention to add another unit (bay window) in which the bay enters into the listening room and does indeed reflect the audio towards the outside walls and away from the listener. With the fixed center pane it will not be possible for there to be a primary reflection from the speakers to the listener.
The problem arises in that there is not sufficient room between the bay and the existing window for one of the three panes of the bay window to enter within the space allocated between the them and therefore it will not be possible to have a second means of egress in case of a fire.
The apparent solution is to use a fixed center pane and two inwardly opening panes, in order to provide access to the opening pane of the casement.
Unfortunately, I don't believe that I can purchase an inward opening hinged window in wood which can be made up into such a three pane unit that is available in the US.
