When I retired in 2000 I had nothing to do and lot s of time to do it in. I thought that music was interesting and that Id try getting a really good system and seeing if I enjoyed listening to music. I bought a series of NAD and Onkyo receivers and amps and a pair of Dunlavy SCIV. The sound was much better than Id heard in a system and I thought this was great. I bought hundreds of cd, listened to the masters and decided I really liked music, most music. I still dont really understand atonal or people yelling at each other. I used to think rap was what people did on doors and tables. Id like to keep my ignorance in place on that one.
Then one evening I was having dinner at my usual restaurant hangout and after drinking a bottle of wine with a man who lived a few doors down from the restaurant, he invited me to listen to his music system. I was stunned. He had a Levinson Amp (331) with Teal speakers and Meridian cd and preamp with silver cables.WOW! I was in love. Id never imagined that sound from a machine could be like that. I do owe Tony a thank you, for he showed me the light. A switch truly went on for me that night. Thank you.
After about ten minutes I realized that my ears hurt. I knew it was too bright, but ZAP!
I wanted to hear that clarity, that detail and I wanted to hear it for more than ten minutes without my ears hurting.
So, out went the receivers (actually I gave them to my three children) and in came Levinson gear. Since, Ive been through ten or so amps and a few speakers and a few cables, cd players and turntables.
Ive learned a lot of what works and whats smoke. In wine, everything you need to know about it is in the glass youre drinking, right now. Nope, you dont need to know the grape pickers name, nor the vintner, nor the name of the town, plot or mix of fruit.
You just need to know whats in your glass. TODAY. I suppose by now youve figured out that Ive tried a few glasses of wine. Yup. I stopped guessing how many bottles Ive participated in after the 50,000 mark. No, that wasnt yesterday. The benefit Ive found of getting old is that you cant remember when you stopped remembering.
Ive come to see audio in exactly the same light as wine. Im interested in what works, I can hear and I can feel. Once it takes an explanation to decide if its there, its not. If it feels like the music is wrong, lifeless, brittle, bright or skewed, toss the gear that caused it.
Around 2003 I bit the bullet and flipped for the design and engineering of a room by Rives Audio. It cost me the rebuild of our home. I could not find a single contractor willing to take on the room project. They clearly were so nervous about the details that they would not do it. On August 25, 2004 the room was nearly finished and the equipment was placed in it to hear what money can buy.
Its pretty damn good!
Its truly the best of everything Ive heard in equipment and design. I grant those others with similar situations that theres may be better rooms and sound, but I havent been to visit them and cant say from experience.
What stands out to me in and from my room is that it feels small. It is actually 247 feet long and 152 feed wide where the speakers are located. The ceiling runs from 91 to 116 at the peak. The walls are not parallel, nor is the ceiling with the floor. And it does feel small. I believe it a combination of the oversize chair on a platform along with the monster truck sized speakers. They are 76 tall and 30 deep. When I have the equipment along side the chair, there isnt much room to get past. I think Im going to make a change in the seating. There goes my retirement fund.
The technical side of the room is Von Schweikert VR11's, Two DarTZeel stereo amps tri-wired, EMM Labs DCC2,Emm Labs CDSD Jena Labs interconnects and speaker wires, Jena Labs with a separate electrical panel fed from the top of the main panel and a separate HVAC system with acoustical dampening. The room is a floating system by Kinetics and what you see is in fact floating on a separate floor four inches below the current floor. The walls were built on the floating floor producing substantial isolation from the rest of the house. The rooms below are treated as well. There is a lot of sheetrock hanging on our walls. Waaay too much.
Having the room designed by Rives produced a set of plans which my licensed architect reviewed and then added support for. We now have two steel beams and three wood beams supporting the floor below the floor.
Pertussons corollary to Murphys Law raised its ugly head and true to it, No job is so simple that it cant be done wrong. In spite of excellent design, engineering and effort, neither the construction manager nor those at Rives Audio ever asked each other if the plans they were each talking about were the same. They werent. Rives revised the plans and the contractor did not have them. Only months into the project when it became obvious that there were differences while on conference calls, did I learn that I wouldnt be having front bass traps and that the window was offset. The first question that should be asked between designer and contractor is, what version plans do you have?
Issues arose during construction including isolating the steel columns and room below the audio room sonically from the audio room. One is my childrens living room and the other is the boiler room. Each has loud distracting noises in it. We used a hanging isolated ceiling in the living room to keep the psycho music and video from being heard upstairs. That works well. The boiler needs more isolation and we will build a room within the boiler room to isolate it from the HVAC for the audio room.
There are two prices to pay for huge speakers. One is the obvious lotsa money. The other is the speakers weigh in around 1000 pounds each, come in three shipping crates and need a couple of power lifters to install. Yes, call the gym first, before ordering to insure the availability of help. Our room is in the rear of the house which puts it ten feet above the driveway with no paved smooth walk to the rear. Problem! This problem needs to be addressed. It took five hours to install the speakers between bringing the six crates to the deck and actually hoisting them in place. The bookcase you see in the pictures is the actual door to the room. It is not a very wide opening and presents problems to bring in large objects. The speaker were tuned by Albert Von Schweikert and Kevin Malmgren. They measured the room and tuned and placed them in one night. Speaker placement is not critical, but position combined with seating position produces a variety of hall images.
I still am working on my vinyl setup and there are a few small details left in the room to do.
If youre crazy enough about audio and have the willingness and ability to make it happen, I recommend taking the plunge into extreme audio. Its a constant amazement that such beauty can be reproduced, for me (and you too).
Haven't heard from you since your elevation in the league of semi-retired entrepreneurs. I'm sure lack of obligations has improved your view of the world.
System edited: It's true! The thrill is gone. The VR-11's are moving out and it's time to move on. The only positive is that I can see the front and side walls now that the speakers are apart. We'll see where we're going next.
System edited: Simplicity went to a low level. I had my system apart for nearly a year. I sold the EMM gear, one Dartzeel and the Jena cables. I took the platform and 700 lbs of sand out, and have lowsy music in a wonderful room. Next is pre-amp and new digital gear. Better to listen than wait for something. Yeah, and so maybe it wasn't me, but my 19 year old son who took the sand out. It's conceptually the same.
Sorry for the delay in answering. I've learned a lot of ways to improve noise reduction in my heating room. First, enclose the air handler in a room within a room with tripled sheet rock, spun fiberglass, sheet rock which will damp some of the noise. If your furnace is a gas or oil fired, there are noise reducing burner jackets which will reduce all but the rumble by a lot. If you can, put the system on rubber feet which are commercially available. Then have a baffle box made to go between the furnace and the air inlets/returns in your room.
Sure, there are great recordings and in my system, they just come to "live". Muddy, clouded recordings are just that; muddy and clouded. However, even with bright or colored recordings, they are still enjoyable.
What has happened is that my expectation is so high as to being live that when there are modest recordings, I many times feel disappointed.
My system makes everything better, but it doesn't make the bad good.
One of the considerations I have for the room in France is who I should use to design the acoustics. In my first room, I used Rives Audio. I have the opportunity to choose again and I'm interested in suggestions for this room 33 x 37 x 11'6".
I'm again considering all thoughts which will attain the highest level of acoustics and presentation in a room outfitted with numerous seating groups.
Well, I'm beginning to look at updating my system again. Hard to believe, but it's true. I am purchasing another home in France and I'm thinking of sending the VR-11's there and considering a revision of my home system.
It's time to upgrade the EMM Labs gear to the Signature Series and the EMT has run it's course. I'm ready for the DarTZeel preamp and to go to 50 ohm cables and get rid of the transmission lines on the floor.
The stand will be the Grand Prix Audio along with it's turntable.
So when I feel up to the economic lift, I'm moving on.
I'm considering using my completely rebuilt and updated Tenor 300 hybrids, the Jena Labs cables, an EMM front end and the VR-11's for my new room. Currently the plan is to build a room 37 by 33 with an 11 plus foot ceiling height floating on a rim-joist system to isolate the bass from the stone house. Still too many unanswered questions. The basic intent is to have a single room for both audio and entertaining which can seat up to 35 when necessary. We think this can work.
Sad to hear about the second home and racing Mike. I'm not sure you're limited to the 11's. I didn't buy a new house and build an addition for my system.
The exact distance from hole to hole is 28.75" and from outside to outside is 29.25".
I'm now sure you will have the best sound in the US.
I tried sitting much further back which produces a sense of hall rather than performance. Richard Byrd was concerned that the speakers wouldn't be coherent at such a short distance, given their height.
I kept finding myself wanting to sit further forward and so I moved the 700 lb platform to the sweet spot. I always love the music where I'm sitting, but have the feeling that I want to move back because I'm claustrophobic.
The room is 24 1/2 long by 15 wide with the ceiling at the front beginnig at 9 feet and cresting at 11 1/2 feet. The speakers are currently at 109" from the front and my ears are at 109" from the tweaters.
I'm back again and I'm having more success and a strange phenomenon.
I returned home from being away a week with the system off. Everything was off except for the Tom Evans. I listenend the next day and when I played vinyl I found that the desired listening volume was in the "low 20's". I turned the a/c in the room off and returned the next day. The room was 78 degrees and I found that I wanted to listen at "high 40's". I turned the a/c back on and my preferred listening level became "high 20's".
I listened carefully and find that the 1lb brass puck sucks the life out of the record. It's cleaner, but doesn't have that snap.
What happened? What's the relationship between temperature and volume? Too strange!
What an unexpected pleasure. I'm glad you're pleased.
The VS-11's need to wait a little longer until the system and the room are truly complete before I'll try to describe them accurately.
I need to change outlets, grounds, trap the ceiling between the speakers and my listening position, install the inner window, change inner doors to one with sound dampening, and get the DarTZeel preamp and GP Monaco stand.
I moved the equipment from the front of the room in the sound field to the back of the room. I was awaiting the return of my 26' Pathfinder interconnects, which returned yesterday.
It's really good to have the front of the room empty again. The room felt small with so much floor area taken up by equpment. It's rather open, frankly more open sounding than I expectd. I believe it may have to do with getting the eqipment out of the sound field. Expecially a sound field capable of such bass vibration so close by.
Another possiblilty is that the Pathfinders have never been used much, and virtually not at all during the last two years.
I'd appreciate your experience in the changes you've heard, if similar with removing equipment from the front of the room to the back.
System edited: The Groove goes tomorrow and the room is painted. No the psycho doesn't hear new acoustics. It's the wrong color, but it's a substantial reduction in distraction from the white walls. Someday, when a decorator type who knows color comes along and tells me what the right shade is, I'll get it. Next step is get the DarTZeel preamp and finish the electronics. I pulled apart the return air box and found that the contractor had put in panels of acoutical material in order to dampen the noise and only succeeded in creating air noise in addition to the machine noise and the boiler noise. Now it's at least one less set of frequencies.
You know, for a feller who asks me if I'm going to be home this weekend, I can't figure out why? Tim, you haven't called again.
It probably will be easier to email me privately in the future if you want to know my schedule.
Now for everybody else, but Tim; you're all invited over for lunch and to listen on Saturday. Ssssh! I don't want Tim to hear about this.
The room is clearing out. Time for the GPA Monaco 5 tier and the DarTZeel. Then there's no equipment left on the floor. Finally getting cleaned up.
Vinyl is powerful, dynamic but not finished. It lacks the real blackness of a great table and phonostage. This too shall pass.
Having slowed down the fan for the HVAC system, the cold air no longer dumps in the room and it's much more comfortable to be there. I have been speaking with my HVAC guy and he believes I should change the system for a two speed compressor 1 ton/ 2 tons and a variable speed fan. This should reduce capacity on the low end and maintain capacity on the high end.
The entire system is going to be enclosed in a sound reducing enclosure to dampen and hopefully eliminate the boiler noise.
I moved my platform and seat 20" forward today. Yes, it took three 20 year olds and a broom handle. No, I didn't use the broom handle on the 20 year olds. They lifted the front of the platform, slid the handle underneath rolled the 800 lbs of platform forward.
This seating position puts the listener in the music with enough width of separation of the speakers to widen the soundstage to much wider than the room. The perceived volume level has risen and I have much listening and tweeking to do.
I'm going to get out the analyzer and see how much resettin the speakers need.
I have been fiddling again. I removed the Zoethecus four tier stand and replaced it with my two SRA amp stands from the Tenors. Well, there's no doubt left that the SRA's do something. Most of the floor thump is gone when I walk by the turntable. I put the CDSD on the counter by the window and the Groove and DCC2 on one SRA and the turntable on the other SRA.
It's visually a lot easier for me.
The next step is to get a DarTZeel pre-amp and bring all the front end equipment to the back of the room.
I have been listening more tonight and each time I hear the same music I am accostomed to hearing I find the music more detailed and louder at the same volume setting. The panels are reducing the noise floor from the air returns. Also, the absorbtion panels set in the windows at the primary reflection points has shut down the bass reflection and increased clarity. The change is really dramatic.
I began by measuring the tonearm height from the deck. The manual recommends 35mm and it was about 30mm. I raised it and that improved the size of the center image. Then I lowered the tracking force to 2.40 grams and the size of everything seems about right. The instruments are distinct, clear, focused and the voices are the same.
I made up panels for the sides of my window, each 47" high by 24" wide. I want to kill the primary reflection off the window until I have the interior bay window made.
I measure the volume level of the return air and depending on whether the boiler downstairs is on and whether the rooms own air handler is on, I get up to 60 db of sound below 100 hertz. So, I made up panels to go in front of the return air which is what you see in the front of the room and it knocks the sound down dramatically into to 40 db levels.
I then set up the PAA3 analyzer in my chair at head height along with the computer. I set the analyzer to medium response and flat program and began to move the speakers around with pink noise on while watching the walls and the computer screen. Yes, I can actually move them with little force. They're on wheels and move fairly easily for 1000 lb. monsters.
I was told to turn off all the boost in the bass, and mid highs and highs. Then turn off one channel and start to find a position for the speaker in which the midrange is flat. I find that when the speakers are very wide, they produce the flatest response. I then began upping the ranges until I got the best I could.
I believe that I need front corner bass busting for the lowest frequencies of bass. I also believe that my listening position which is 150" from each tweeter needs to move forward towards the 109" the tweeters are apart from each other and from the front wall. I believe this is the primary problem for me to fix.
Unfortunately, the platform my chair is on weighs about 800 lbs and we're not sure we can move it.
The cable arrived to bypass the phonostage of the EMT. I am using a Tom Evans Groove. It's a joy to hear vinyl the way I remember it.
The gain is so much higher than with the internal card. Previously I was running the EMM DCC2 at 70-95 on the volume scale of 1-99. Above 78 there was an audible hum which got louder along with the hiss up to the max.
With the new stage there is a slight hiss above 62, but I can now play in the 20-40 range. The noise floor is down and the detail is up.
I can now hear that my cartridge set up is lousy. I have great bass and a small center image. I believe I need to change height and weight.
My seating position follows my path through life. I purchased the chair after sitting it it at the showroom on a few occassions. I felt it was one of the ugliest chairs I could remember, but was so comfortable that I thought, "what the hell" and ordered it. After sitting in the smaller leather chairs for a few months, the "Leopold chair" arrived and the music was flat and lifeless everytime I sat in the chair. I then measured my ear height from the ground in each chair. Voila', in the leather chairs, my ears were 47" from the ground and in the comfortable chair my ears were 36" from the ground. I then measured the mid line of the ribbon tweeter and it's 47 1/2". So, by buying the world's most expensive and ugly chair, I managed to screw up the music in my room. I won't tell you how much the chair costs, but it was enough that I couldn't make myself throw it away. I decided to raise the chair 11" to put it back where it belonged.
Now, I happen to have a terrific cabinet maker, Geoffrey, who told me he'd handle the platform, which he did, filled it with 700 lbs. of sand and carpeted it with the extra piece of carpet. We have sound traps on the front and custom built trays for the phone and my remote.
But, I don't like the whole thing either. It interferes with the feel of the back of the room and diminishes the space available to walk around.
As to the VR-11's, they are remarkable in their ease of presentation. Given I drive them with 4600 watts, they should be eased using a probable 1-5% of capacity.
Why don't you visit when you're in town and listen for yourself?
Earlier today, I was trying to trap more bass in the front of the room. I've been making 9" wide panels for each corner to lower the low bass and flatten the room out. I have a slight bass hump in the low bass. When I put panels in front of the corners it seems to do the trick. Now to make up the panels and fit them in place and measure the room again.
I understand that audio room design within a new construction is straight forward and easy on the budget. So, if that were true, I'd ask, "are you planning a room in your new house?" It's easy now, hard and expensive later.
I'm glad you're enjoying the music. Did you change what you listen to as well as equipment?
While writing my last entry, I became aware that this is a blog. When I started out I intended this thread to chronical the experiences I was going through towards my audio end.
I thought I would be in dialogue with others and have some interplay. My personality must drive others off, since I have not had much interplay over more than two years.
I don't belive this will change, but I did expect different results. I feel rather foolish writing into a vacuum.
I've been learning about vibration control and isolation. It's interesting that I've gotten this far and know so little. I put the DCC2, CDSD and 948 on a Zoethecus four shelf unit in the center of the front of the room for ease of use. Bad, bad, bad. When playing a record and walking past the table, my foot thump is transmitted directly to the speakers. Bad, bad, bad. So, I put little rubber mats under the Darumas. A little better. Then I realize that those four 15" drivers with the 1000 watts each might not be improving the music having the table behind them being fired directly at the table. So, I move the stand forward and voila' the imaging improved, and the music became more solid. I also bought a brass puck which improved solidity.
Yeah, I know that many of you already believe that I don't know a brass puck about vinyl.
I am having a cable made to output directly from the tonearm DIN connector to RCA male plugs. I'm going to use an outboard pre-amp and see how much improvement I can get.
Louis at Studiotechnik Dusch... EMT-Profi provided me with a headshell to use my Dynavector cartridge with and is making the cable.
I purchased a PAA3 audio analyzer and set up my speakers with it. I may add surface traps in the front corners to kill off a slight bass hump.
Lot's of improvements in the offing. I'm looking forward to improved vinyl and final room tweeks.
I reduced the anti-skating weight today. It seems to improve dynamics slightly? Why, I have no idea. I also have a set of Daruma's which I put in upside down under the table. They really are better right side up. The soundstage is compressed into th center and still is very closed. One suggestion was time would cure part of the problem which is the cartridge breaking in. If the soundstage opens up it'll be great, but the blacks are kinda grey. I think that a real phono stage is the only cure for that.
I have been listening to vinyl now for a few weeks. I keep wanting more from it. It just doesn't have the deep dynamics I expected. I play audiophile vinly, remakes and original vinyl. There is something missing. The inner detail and dynamics of the music isn't there. I've tried both a Pathfinder and Symphony interconnect from the table to the DCC2.
I would like to believe that the problem is the original EMT phono stage built into the EMT.
The only upscale phono stage I have available is RCA in and out and the EMT is XLR out only.
I can't get my arms around the problem. Is this as good as it's going to get? Will a premier table be radically different? Is the the phono stage, or the pre-amp?
Although I heard much less in the old room, I remember the Rockport and Aesthetix being really black in the silent areas. I get a lot of table rumble so, I believe that the detail is being hidden behind the rumble.
In order to get the volume level I want which is about 75db, I end up with table rumble, or so it sounds like to me.
I don't have other tables available to me at this time and don't have another phono stage available.
Well, it's finally happened. I am listening to vinyl in the new room. The first that I realized was how little I know about turntables and setup. I was priviledged to have bought a setup Rockport and still thank Jack to myself and Andy for the instructions. Arm and cartridge setup was nearly idiot proof with the linear tracking tonearm.
The EMT 929 arm has antiskating weights which were way too heavy. I called Mike Lavigne for help and once again knowledge, experience and talent made a difference. The theory was what I knew nothing about. What in theory should make a difference, did in fact work. Mike explained the relationship between no weight and equal antiskating force should do. It had 3 grams with a 2 gram weight and two 1/2 gram shot. Got rid of the shot and it doesn't skip. Must be okay.
The Dynavector I'm using had a range of 1.8 - 2.2 grams tracking force and I was using 2.06. A friend told me that others were using them with 2.5 or 2.6 grams of force. I tried, but it had too much bass and lost some top end. Went back to 2.0. It evened out the ranges.
I need direction on how to setup this table better.
I tried adjusting the gain on the card below. It seems balanced and when I get the PAA3 I can test channel balance.
I borrowed a Jena Symphony XLR's. I didn't take the Pathfinders. I will this week and see what else is in the music.
Anyone with EMT 948 experience, please tell me about all those things I know absolutely nothing about with the table. Do I need any antiskating weight?
As to the music.
It's really great to have my other six thousand albums available. I'm listening to the Beach Boys endless summer album. It's exciting just to hear music I haven't heard in ages. I'm going to spend the next days listening.
I had flutter and by angling the cartridge slightly towards the spindle, that disappeared.
Duke's place is fabulous.
I'll be taking notes and post with my observations. Given this is a built in line stage of over thirty years age with a middle of the road interconnect. It can only get better, I think.
For years, I didn't realize that liquid gold poured through a sieve would not produce much value. I continuously upgraded equipment and had to near field listen in order to minimize the effects of a really bad room. The only times that I could get the benefits of the increased sonics was when I was between the speakers.
I didn't want to spend the money and make the commitment to have a "great room". Now, all I tell everyone is that it's better to have a great room and a $4000 system than a bad room and a $400,000 system.
If you can't hear the benefits of great equipment, then why not just get a great pair of headphones and skip the room and speakers completely?
Now that my room is really good, everything that happens in it can be heard, which is what we all really want anyway.
I am days away from listening for the first time to vinyl in the new room and am really excited about the effect of the added info and sense of space.
Yes Jane, that is a 1970 turntable on the floor of my listening room. And, no it doesn't make music. How could any turntable in Eichengrun's house make a sound. It would be against the priciples of audio physics.
However, it is possible that when the correct headshell arrives from Germany next week that I may hear vinyl for the first time in this room.
Thanks only to my friend Jonathan loaning me the EMT 948.
It reminds me of the PA system in my high school main office I got the opportunity to see so often years ago. Fond memories.
I'm going to use my Dynavector cartridge and the built in pre-amp into the EMM Labs DCC2.
I'm told it'll be better than good.
Follow up next week.
And yes, I'm getting a stand to put all the equipment on.
I'm borrowing an EMT 948 from my friend. I intend to buy something else, but it will certainly get me by until the DarTZeel pre-amp arrives later this year.
System edited: It's my new clean look. The front of the room will look the same when I get the Grand Prix Audio Monaco for the Pre-amp, Digital and Turntable. Wow. A clean room. Nothing on the marble. Wow. It's not me.
The VYGER is packed and ready to ship tomorrow. The amount of space it gives back is amazing. I'll be able to walk around to the back of the room easily without it.
I learned a really stupid by obvious thing about my equipment and room today. There is a huge improvement in sonics after a few hours of warmup. I don't know why I didn't realize that until today.
Well, I keep learning more about windows than I ever wanted to know. I found a custom window manufacturer who only wants between seven and ten thousand for a custom wood windows. WOW!
I believe I can make this work with a Marvin bay window made in all wood without casement hardware. I'll be checking with them tomorrow. It should be between two and three thousand. It will be interesting to learn how we'll hang this one on an extension jamb that's already in place for the outer window.
The V.Y.G.E.R. is sold and I'm looking forward to the replacement which I have not decided on.
My friend Jonathan Tinn is loaning me an EMT 948 turntable so I can listen to vinyl next week.
The DarTZeel pre-amp should be here by December. Perhaps the baffle boxes for the air conditioning returns can be installed by then also.
The problem is that the outer window(current window) is a triple unit with two casements, each on the outside with a fixed pane in the middle.
It is my intention to add another unit (bay window) in which the bay enters into the listening room and does indeed reflect the audio towards the outside walls and away from the listener. With the fixed center pane it will not be possible for there to be a primary reflection from the speakers to the listener.
The problem arises in that there is not sufficient room between the bay and the existing window for one of the three panes of the bay window to enter within the space allocated between the them and therefore it will not be possible to have a second means of egress in case of a fire.
The apparent solution is to use a fixed center pane and two inwardly opening panes, in order to provide access to the opening pane of the casement.
Unfortunately, I don't believe that I can purchase an inward opening hinged window in wood which can be made up into such a three pane unit that is available in the US.
The simple answer as to shipping is that they come in three sections apiece. Other than the weight and cost of each piece, they're actually no problem to install.
I really don't find them imposing, just large. I deal with them as though they were two dimensional. It makes me feel better.
I haven't been 5'2" in a while and have no perspective on height. But, when I'm sitting at 47" I'm not overwhelmed.
Now I really have to finish the room. I've been listening on and off during the last six months. Since I've decided to sell the house in France, I have a renewed commitment to completing the final details.
I'm selling the VYGER and getting a smaller footprint turntable. I'm getting the Dartzeel preamp/phono stage. I'm getting a Grand Prix Audio stand and putting the EMM gear and the Pre-amp with power supply and the turntable on it.
There's going to be some room to move around.
I need to build more cd cases on the sides above the moldings.
The baffle boxes for the a/c system need to be made to quiet the machine noise on the return side.
Richard Byrd told me to have a bow window made to fit inside the room. Yes, facing inside. It's a great idea. But, no one has yet made a casement that opens in, that I have found.
I am trying to figure out who makes the european style windows which are inward opening and have handles which turn and one opens the window with them. They would be ideal for making up a bow window.
Now, if anyone knows where in the US I can get such windows in wood, tell me.
I still need to build a over the top ground for the service. I'm told that I need copper pipe, drilled through, brazed together and tinned. No problem, I'll just call the ground store and ask for a #1 ground. Sure. Somewhere in the deep recesses of winter I'll be drilling six foot sections of 1" copper pipe. I'm looking forward to telling the zink plater guy that I have a six foot by two foot kind of ??? trellis that I want plated inside and out and yeah, by the way, I want you to tin the 1/2" thick wire that's attached to it.
I'm sure I'll be well received.
Then, It'll be on to digging a hole big enough to sink a kids seven foot diameter swimming pool into and put my then world class ground into, followed by the runoff from my house leaders to keep it wet and presto, I have the greatest audio ground in Northern Westchester County.
I was listening this weekend with a house full of guests. I considered just the question you speak to. I thought, " is there an optimum speaker height for my room (bigger presumably) which would improve the results?
As to racing, my Nissan's engine blew at Watkins Glen in June and I'm out of the series for the rest of the year. Back to fast open wheel racing, much slower than GTP/Group C.
Thank you. It has been worth the effort. When equipment breaks, I wonder about it. But, listening as I am now, I love the total results. I'm in my office, about sixty feet outside the room and it sounds like being in the back of a big hall. Not distant, just not direct. In the room it's pinpoint, accurate, articulate. What I never thought would happen is that we would be able to listen while not being in the room. It's great all the time. The world's most expensive elevator music.
I've heard many of the great cd players and cd/dac combos at the shows and in friends rooms. I have never heard anything that compares with the detail, dynamics and clarity of the DCC2/CDSD combo. Rather than me spending more money, why don't you come visit and listen to my system, I'll supply the wine.
It'll be cheaper for us both. I've never heard a system anywhere that compares to the results of my system/room combination. There were parts of others systems I like, and some I like very much, but each had their defects compared to live music. That and that alone is my criteria.
I'm not familiar with the Verdier. I've heard about it, but have not known anyone with one or heard one. The VYGER and Rockport are straight forward enough once dialed in when they have no pump or motor problems. Well cared for they just work. But that's true about everything. I'm really no longer worried that the VYGER won't work.
It's really a function of the "Pain in the ass theory", ... at some point something becomes such a pain in the ass that it's not worth dealing with any longer. It may work perfectly well, but not for me.
I'm not there with the VYGER. Close, but not there. Had the platter not spun this week, I would have been there.
Now that I know I have a pump issue, it will be easy enough to replace the pump next week and start listening to vinyl.
It really is a space issue to me. If you look at the location were the VYGER is placed, it leaves only the space in front of it for an electrics rack. No problem. But, then I have no place on that wall for a low CD rack to match the one which is going on the opposite rear wall below the panels.
With a table top turntable I can get one equipment rack and place the turntable on top of it. Then wires are shorter and I still have below the panels to put CD's.
I'm not decided. The VYGER is one bizarre but cool looking turntable and I'm still attracted to unique, different. Of course it plays records great too.
After reading your post I thought am I really done for a while? No, I'm still thinking through the logistics of having a VYGER turntable. Even though it now works and I am awaiting finding out how good it is, I think that I'm going to switch from the VYGER to a SME30 in the near future, due to the space in my room. I have so little space for additional CD storage. I can only put an equipment rack next to the door and that leaves the to the rear of where the equipment rack can go to put the cd rack and behind my chair to put the VYGER if I want to move it from where it is. Separating turntable and phono stage is the worst thing I can do, because it increases the length of the interconnect from the turntable to the phono stage. So, either I have to dump one of the additional CD racks or go to a table top turntable... SME30.
I started with this because it's not so easy to stop.
As to amps, I'm not familiar with the TRL's. Good luck. Hope you enjoy them. The DarTZeels do the best job that I've heard. I felt that way about the Tenor 75's a few years ago. I suppose it's only a matter of time till that changes again. The beauty is that they're solid state.
But I do miss the glow of the Tenor output tubes. I loved the lights at night. I also saved on heat in the winter.
I have returned to listening every day to music and it's a lot of fun again.
I have the VYGER turning. I learned that the pump seals are blown and I need a new pump. Bruce Fetherling of Acoustic Dreams went through the unit with me by phone and I was able to determine the correct piping. The record spins. I never thought that would be a challenge. I'm awaiting the new pump and I'll begin playing records. I still need a practical pre-amp with phono stage and volume control. One step at a time.
I haven't been able to get the pump to work correctly. I followed the instructions in the manual and directions that Bruce Featherling sent me. putting it together has been a frustrating experience and frankly, I'm running out of interest. My prior Rockport Serius II took about an hour to put back together and I just listened to music. The pump was never a problem and the whole system always worked. Contrary to a lot of comments I've had over the years about Rockports, it was the single least troubled piece of equipment I can ever remember having. Maybe this is cosmic payback for having the only Serius II that ever worked right?
Jonathan Tinn lent me a one piece phono stage to try with the VYGER, I wish I could.
HELP!
I'm drowning in my VYGER.
I'll call Bruce again and ask him for help. I'm sure I can figure out how to make it work if I try hard enough.
If anyone can reach out and help me here, I'd really appreciate it.
Okay. Enough of the techno crap. I've finally gotten back to enjoying listening to music in the past week. I've been so caught up in the something is wrong business that I've hated being in the room for more than a few minutes. I really have thought that I wasn't part of the equipment is more important that the music bunch. Wow. Hard to see the forest through the trees. Sure I've got a list of details to complete. But only a few will make any difference in the sound and only one will make a difference to the music. Analog. It's time to make the VYGER hum or sell it.
I also need more qualified visitors. Don't have people to listen with. Got to call out the friends.
I started to write about more details that have been worked on, but erased it. I'll continue to update changes to the room and system, but not today.
I haven't bought any media in at least a year and I'm hungry for new music. It's time for me to start reading reviews of new recordings.
I have been listening to music a lot this week. The areas that need attention in my system are:
1. Satisfactory, non-reflective, non-resonant inner window with limited or no flex. 2. Tweak outlets for lowest sound floor and best dynamics 3. Tweak power cords for best sound and dynamics 4. Have SRA stands made for the DarTZeels 5. Have the stone shelf in center front of the room moved to the rear for the VPI-17 and replaced with a deeper shelf 6. Have CD racks made for the spaces below the wall panels on the side walls in front of the rear bass traps 7. Have baffle boxes made for the air returns to eliminate the machine fan noise. 8. Apply air seals to the bottom of the door 9. Have the book case door adjusted so that I can get out if it is shut. 10. Get the VYGER working or sell it 11. Get a DarTZeel pre-amp with phono-stage 12. Hang the top BAD ARC panels directly from the wall rather than sit it on top of the middle panel. 13. Bring 110 power to the side of the platform along with a computer network feed so that I can use my laptop in the room 14. Sort out the lighting so that it provides better accent mode for night listening 15. The CD unit needs to be raised 4 ½ to make clearance for a shelf to hold the VPI-17. 16. Install massive separate ground for the audio circuits 17. Add input fresh air feed to HVAC system
Other details that have changed recently: 1. Platform is ¾ plywood with center plywood supports, filled to the top with clean sand, trapped in the front and centered in the room. The carpet is the same as the rest of the room, 120 oz wool. The arms and shelves on the platform are cherry and were made for this and finished to match the chair. The rear legs of the chair were drilled and a dowel was inserted in each. The chair was centered on the platform and holes were drilled to match the dowels. The chair doesnt move and it appears to be free standing. There are recessed rails for the ottoman to slide in. The telephone line runs up through the arm supporting the table the telephone sits on. 2. Addition of the second guest chair 3. cleaned up the room 4. I use the room 5. I listen to music again 6. I am inviting friends over to listen
I removed the inner window which was three pieces of quarter inch glass in a metal track. It rattled and flexed. Without it the bass tightened up and the depth of the soundstage increased.
The platform was a great improvement in focus and detail. Now my ears are at tweeter height.
The system has realistic live music feel for vocals and speach in most recordings.
I am back home for a few days and took the time to listen with one amp and both sets of speaker cables. The effect was to lessen the detail level below using one set of mono wires and the jumpers from Von Schweikerts. The ranges again were out of balance as with one set of wires.
Yes, in this case two sets of wires absolutely do not work on one amp channel of a DarTZeel. I'll be interested in comments as to the resistance and other reasons why.
The RPG Bad arcs(who knew they had a special name for curved panels?) arrived and do make a difference with three on each side wall primary reflection point. Improved clarity, high excitement, less brightness. Specific observation is that there is a clear reflection off the inside window, which now needs to be fixed by replacing the interior window with a solid sheet of half inch safety glass at a -15 degree angle and install a blinds like lattice work in cherry to match the room. The reflection off the window and the ringing of the glass hopefully will dissappear. Another concern to be addressed is the air handler hum which needs two baffle boxes on the return air below the vents. The noise floor should be really low.
I will begin to address the separate ground soon. I believe a shovel and tinned copper pipe will be necessary.
The second pair of speaker cables arrived in the beginning of last week which left me a few days to listen prior to leaving for France. The second pair of Jena Pathfinders is bi-wired with a split 20" from the speaker end. Immediately after installing TWO amps with one channel for tweeters and the second channel for the bass modules(biwired)with splitters to three sets of binding posts in total per speaker with the use of a 50 ohm to 50 ohm jumper on the DarTZeels, there was a dramatic improvment in the size of and detail of the mids and bass. The sense of size was now equivalent to the upper mids and highs when I used one amp and one set of cables to the mids and jumpered the bass posts.
MES and JTINN asked me to try using one amp and running the same two pairs of cables on a single post to determine what the effect of using the second amp is. I will do so when I return this week.
I have yet to change outlets to Jena cryoed. I also am having a platform made to raise my chair 11.5" to bring my ears up to the center height of the tweeters. Amazing I oveerlooked the obvious and the cost of addressing stupidity.
Another detail is adding magnetic weatherstripping to seal the door into the room. Positive pressure! That's what I need more of!
The music is improving, with no end in sight. I still have to address a functional lp system. Clearly, I want a DarTZeel pre-amp with the 50 oops ohm cable. I wonder how I'm supposed to work this one out with both 50 ohm connectors already being used to bridge side to side. New problem for Herve.
More later in the saga of Eichengrun vs audio nirvana or... how insanity really manifests in the adult world of early retirement.
It's starting to become apparent that Tim isn't my friend. Moreover, it's clear you're not past your father anger issues. Sad. I thought that by now you'd have it together. Such hostility.
I can understand why you don't visit. Too great a chance of attack.
Thanks for the concern about my sex life. I wish that my wife shared it.
System edited: I've finally gotten real amps again! The two DarTZeel's are here. I'm a little short on cableing. Specifically, I'm awaiting a second pair of Pathfinder Speaker Cables with bi-wire splits 20" from the end to bridge the bass modules which are 33" apart on the speakers. There are three sets of binding posts per speaker. I will continue to feed the mid-range/tweeter module(center) with a single pair of Pathfinders fed from one channel of a DarTZeel stereo amp and will feed the bass modules with the second stereo channel of one amp per speaker. Jennifer Krock is making me a crossover for the DarTZeels so that one RCA feeds two channels. I really don't understand the deal, and should have them in hand shortly. Initial reaction. Open soundstage deeper detail, and wider physically with more saturation than the Tenors. Very high detail level and sense of touchable music. This is with one DarTZeel after one day breaking in. I am anticipating and frankly hoping that the second amp/second pair of speaker cables will have clear improvement. I'll be sure to confirm of reject my theory upon listening. I still do not have the VYGER up and runnig. Seems to be a pattern here. Yes, Tim, I finally am back home in NY. No, I won't tell everyone where I was. I'll tell you. Sh...
System edited: I installed two RPG Bad panels at the primary reflection point for the side walls (2'x2'each). Since the speakers are so tall, I ordered one more for each wall. I expect that should do the magic, for now.
I've learned the tune that my '90Spice Cosworth sounds and I hum it rather often. It brings smiles to my face.
I have driven it for the last time, having moved on to the Nissan R88C with a twin turbo 3.5 liter. So, now I have to learn a new theme song. whoosh whoosh...
Carl Zapp was over today to bring the RPG diffusion panels. We spent a few hours listening to SACDs and CDs. When he left, I installed the panels two feet up from the floor and four feet high by two feet wide. It is remarkable how the bass tightened up and the mids became more distinct. I will purchase two more so that I begin at one foot off the floor and go up to seven feet.
Great treatment for the sidewall primary reflection.
I did my usual. I had decided a while back not to buy another Rockport Serius. I asked Jonathan Tinn his advice and he was really bullish on the SME30 for good reasons; simplicity, build quality, sound quality, manufacturer reliability, and then he got a VYGER in trade. He had heard glowing reports in the same league as the SME and the Rockport and as usual, he had it on hand. SO...
It is very similar in theory to the Serius II excepting the stand. Now, I've heard the pump was silent. Not quite. If it can't be, it's gone. My room was way too much effort to listen to a pump for a turntable.
The Audio Aero is back and I'm glad. But, compared to the CDSD/DCC2 it's simply slow, fat, bloated and second class. Shocking to realize, given how good it really is and how we depended on it as state of the art until so recently. I doubt there would be any debate as to the relative differences here in person.
The Tenors and not in operation and I'm waiting for them.
System edited: I now have the VYGER, am awaiting a loan of phono stage and have my CDSD. The digital is very good. I still need a quality real ground for the room electric panel. I will be getting the replacement panels for the side wall reflection points tomorrow and will replace the panels. Then the inner window replacement with interior wood slat arrangement is all that's required. It's very good and getting better. Can't wait to report on the vinyl. Bill E
The room was measured and analyzed last week. Frankly, I thought I was done with analysis a long, long time ago. Some things never change...
Two things need to be changed. The windows in the center resonate(the inner one) and the side wall reflections at the primary points need treatment.
The fix is to install other windows/solid thick sheet of tempered glass at an angle to eliminate reflection and then include a slat system to break up the sound.
The side reflections need an absorbtive/diffusive panel which is commercially available.
I've begun to work on these.
I've decided to buy a V.Y.G.E.R Indian rather than the SME 30 and ordered it. I'm not decided on phono-stages and will begin to demo them. My Audio Aero has been shipped back after repair and I'm going to listen to real music again.
Naturally, one of the Tenor amps blew hard wired fuses and needs a technician to repair it.
I don't know in other rooms. I had a 8 x 9 foot similar density carpet which simply was too lively. The area of the back of the room is 15 x 15. Also there is synthetic horsehair padding. Huge difference.
First, I moved the Tenors to improve the cable layout. I have two 240v single outlets in front of the amp placements and one 240v and one 120v outlet behind each in the corner. All are floor installed. When the amps are turned it provides the shortest distance between the amps and the speakers which allows me to move the speakers to various room placements with the shorter speaker cables which I believe are six feet. The separated placement provides the maximum walking room to the cd transports and DAC.
That black box is a Panasonic H1000. It is my progressive scan DVD player and if my f....... Philips SACD 1000 worked or if my f....... EMM LABS CDSD existed, I wouldn't be using.
It is a very poor substitute for a transport. In spite of that, the music sounds real. By the way, it's flaking also.
I found plush wool broadloom at ABC Carpet in NY. Price was a bargain, considering alternatives. Bought Wednesday, delivered Friday, installed Monday.
The sound immediately changed. The apparent base increase and became extremely tight. Considering the change, difficult to decide if slightly exagerated. Now, the following day, does not appear to be base hump. It's actually surprising to me the remarkable difference the carpet makes. I had not expected such a substantial damping of highs and mid-highs.
Now it's kinda done. I await a second chair as in the picture and my listening chair which is larger and much more comfortable. I figured that I should have a couple of extra chairs for guests, should there ever be any and one killer comfortable chair for me. Yes, for me!
Clearly I need more CD storage. I'll deal with this after the room is measured acoustically and treatments adjusted accordingly.
I need to decide on a phono and phono stage stand.
Those to be determined.
My enjoyment increases with improvements in the room.
I will upload latest pictures when I find the uplink cord my son grabbed from me.
Viggen, thanks. My quasi local carpet vendor, ABC Carpet in NY carries their goods. On their website they describe the cost PER SQUARE FOOT. That reminds me of my younger days when we counted certain things by the ounce. Carpet by the square foot, WOW!
Just to share my astonishment. That exceeds my daughter's annual college costs. That poor girl just doesn't know she's about to be out of family support.
That reminds me that our older son probably will have the same problem in his graduate EE program when I hear the costs of the wire upgrades and the vinyl system.
It's just about time that children started being more responsible and grew up.
Mejames, I have been aware that the use of natural fiber carpet is only half the equation. The natural padding improves the damping and dispersion. It also feels really cool. Thanks. Finding it for less than the national budget of Grenada is the problem. I never thought I'd have to go back to work to buy the carpet for the back of my listening room.
I believe it's the size of fight in the driver not the driver in the fight. I bet with 50+ M/year he has really small speakers. Now, me... I need really big speakers.
The stone is for the cd equipment. It needs to be made deeper by about three inches. I'll use diffrent stone for the extension which will be in the rear. The current stone is marble.
Tim,
I know how it's configured and it still doesn't make sense to me.
Mike,
There's always time for races and vacation. Frankly, I'm stunned by how good this is. It's so natural and relaxed. It just sounds like music. The room still isn't complete and things like records in the racks, carpet and underpadding, which were incorporated into the design aren't here and we're using substitutes for them, probably will produce more dampening when finished. Also, I'm going to try adding rear dampening material on the side walls to see if the bass trapping which was designed and not installed will make a difference. The inner door which seals the room needs to be cut down to compensate for the finished treads. This will then pressurize the room and should add new dimensions. The AC contractor is working on removing the 25hz 50 db motor noise which comes in behind the amps from the AC motor. They are preared to make dampening boxes if necessary.
We need more and bigger power cords in 230v, and biwired speaker cables so that we tri wire the speakers from the same monoblock.
Today is July 23rd. The floor has been installed, the stone installed for the equipment bench, the chairs ordered, the electrical roughed and the reflecting panels installed. Next is the installation of the final electric, charging the hvac system, painting and installation of the record cases.
The speakers arrive August 23rd and we'll tune on August 26th.
Pictures to follos when my son adds them. Notice how long it's taken already.
Yes. The final system for now is the VON Scheweikerts, the 300 mono Tenors the DCC-2, Philips transport, Jenas and I'm thinking about vinyl.
I hear that the steel will be in place soon and the room can be built. The HVAC equipment in at the house and I will be home from this trip Tuesday night. I'm looking forward to seeing the grand mess starting to disappear.
System edited: It is true! I really have paid for the Von-Schweikerts and own Kharma Exquisites, and two pairs of Kharma Midi-Grands. It would appear that I have the makings of the world's best surround system. Instead, I think it's long overdue that I started to sell off the speakers I don't intend to use and have paid for. So... I intend to sell the Exquisites and one pair of the Midi Grands. The ac for the room arrived yesterday. We're awaiting the steel supports and the isolation system so that we can build the inner room. Rives Audio is guilty for all of this. If it works, I'm getting the credit. If it doesn't work, Rives is getting the blame. That's why we hire consultants. Isn't it? The EMM labs should arrive within days and now it'll be time to buy a rack and turntable. More and less to come. 4/9/04 from Verberie, Fr. Bill E
System edited: Okay. Now I have speakers. Thanks for noticing. The room finally has been demo'd. The windows filled in. The new windows installed. More when I return home Tuesday. Pictures for sure. Bill E
Well Tim, the room is history. The house is tossed. No decks, kitchen, baths, floors, windows and sanity. The room will be closed in by Friday and they are going to begin with the steel supports and framing the inner room. The new equipment is mostly here. The other pair of Midi-Grands are being stored for me by the kindly Doctor. Thanks!
It appears that we are on schedule and the Theater will be done at the same time. Completion date closer to May 1, but still there is a completion date.
I'm going to add a turntable and keep the records. I like them.
System edited: Well, I'm back... I've been in audio hell for six months. Soon to find Nirvana. Now that I've spent my kids inheritance on the upgrads, I hope that I don't loose my hearing from the car racing. Bill E.
System edited: The electrical problems seem to be cured for now. Our next step is the construction process. We have plans which seemed to be complete, but with the addition of 1300 lb speakers, it seems that more steel is necessary under the room. The architect should have it handled within a couple of days. It's give the money to the contractor time and wait for the end room. It's been so long that I've listened to great equipment in a terrible room that I really can't imagine what it will be like to hear real music here at home. The new speakers are essentially twin Kharma Exquisites which include two 12" woofers, two 8" ceramic mids and three diamond tweeters in a 7'x 3' cabinet weighing 1300 lbs. I suppose it's safe to say that these may have to be my last speakers, since I probably can't move them anyway. As soon as this is done it's time to start on the rebuild of the theater which is in another equal sized room. Bill E.
This week Richard Byrd and Chris Huston arrived on Monday to do the first inspection of my room for the design stage. Both are clearly talented and know tons more than I'm ever going to. Richard's fun, but Chris is FUN! After a few hours of analysis and measurement, we headed off to dinner at my friends restaurant with a 1976 Hospice de Beaune magnum. Yup, I know! It's old and tired, but I figured These small town fellas get the real stuff all the time, might as well tote out the second class stuff, they'd never know. Oh yeah, while they were sketching I opened a '99 Lynch Bages blanc and I figured that Richard's eyes weren't crossed enough, so I threw out some '46 armagnac. Sure enough dinner worked out great.
Tuesday morning was a little rough. But at 7am in came Richard and Chris, the HVAC contractor and the General Contractor. The local architect was promply on time at 7:30, but she's a ton better looking than us, so that's the lumps.
The shape of the room is all over the place both on the walls, and ceiling. Almost nothing is parallel, and even that's a small area. The plan is developing and we will have the drawings by early next week. The architect has been concerned with the added weight loads of the ceiling structure and ceiling materials and the loading from 7000 records and solid wood shelving I'm planing to install in the back of the room to hold them. Oh, she wasn't positively impressed with the 550 lb turntable or the 600 lb speakers I'm waiting for. Somehow, she thinks all this extra weight of about 13,000 lbs could have a bad effect on my life style... long term. I get the feeling, we'll have some more steel in the immediate neighborhood holding up this room by next month.
The electrical issues seem to be clearing up. I was able to eliminate the ground loop by putting all the units on the same outlet. I'm having a problem with the phono stage which the manufacturer is going to work on or replace. It sounds like a tube/tubes/capacitor problem. He wasn't able to recreate it last time it was in his shop, so he'll take a different approach this time.
All the glass on the side of the room is being eliminated and a set of special double windows are being created with unorthodox glass. Sound isolation is going to be very high, but not sound deadening.
To listen to the designers talk, it's going to be the second coming of Beethoven. If I get Bernstein with Rubinstein, I'll have my $'s worth.
It's only two months from completion, here's to the music.
I did call Jonathan and Tenor. I spoke with Michelle and Stephan. At first I was blowing the F7 fuse which I replaced with 5 amp fast blows. They continued to blow and when I went to bias the tubes, V7 wouldn't bias. Tenor sent me two tubes and I replaced the V7 and the F7 fuse continued to blow. SO, I replaced the F7 with the stock ceramic 6.3 amp and the V9 tube flamed out!. I guess it simply didn't have enough voltage to burn up with the 5amp fuse.
The Aesthetix head unit returned and is working without any of the noise problem I'd had.
The system sounds great and I love the vinyl.
Richard Byrd of Rives Audio should be here right around 9/1 and we should begin building by 10/1.
Marakenetz,
I am changing voltages on the Tenors in order to balance the power for noise control. That the power consumption will drop in half on each line is less important than the noise to me.
TWL,
I've got to get me one of those Ricki Lee Jones lp's I ordered the AP catalog and am waiting for a shipment of about 600 50's and 60's jazz lp's in NM condition, so, I may have to wait a little.
Audio999,
I find that the Ruby 2 is even, to the soft side, no harsh edges and very good detail and harmonic balance.
I'm thinking about the Van den Hul Colibri, although I've yet to hear it. My system can afford greater presence and intensity. It's anything but bright and edgy.
