Mike ,I agreed with u regarding the curved design at the centre front wall. I removed it & replaced it with 2x4 mdf 2D prime diffuser with 1" well using oliver prime PRD formula . Certainly improved every dept of my dedicated room

audioblazer September 12, 2012 06:17

first the "bad news"....my MM7's are delayed yet again until mid-October ( delivery 15th or 16th approx) for the main towers, and 2 weeks later for the bass towers. :(

the "good news" is that since the speakers won't arrive until after RMAF, i'm going now. staying at the Hilton next door to the Marriott. Thursday night thru Sunday afternoon. :)

it will be easier to wait if i join in the fun in Denver.

mikelavigne September 12, 2012 00:15

hi Paolo,

thanks for the kind comments. yes, the 'drug' of fine audio is a powerful one, and Jean-Frederich knows how to do it right.

my room was built with the large rounded cylinder behind the speakers. i had assumed that this cylinder would be adaquate diffusion to allow optimal center image. it turned out i was wrong about that.

i had a couple of friends who had recommended to me to try some sort of more agressive diffusion between my speakers as they believed that the center image could be improved. i was not open to this direction and ignored their advice. finally one day (about 4-5 years ago) one of these friends brought over a couple of panels he had built which were double tall 2' x 2' RPG diffusers. he went outside and got this diffuser from his truck and leaned it against my rounded diffuser. it was easy to hear the improvment in center image and overall image focus. my eyes (and ears) had been openned. i then went on to experiment with different levels of these RPG Skyline diffusers and investigated other types. i ended up with the triple stack of the Skyline diffusers that you see in my pictures.

i tried more diffusers wider, and taller, and shorter. these other configurations either stretched the image or made it more diffuse and confused. the 3 stacked 2'x 2' diffusers you see sounded best. the RPG Skylines are tools which cannot be indiscriminately applied. they should only be used where you have fairly strong first reflection issues. there are other diffusion products which can be used more flexibly.

it improved the image focus, improved the depth, improved the tonal coherence and allowed images to have more weight and dynamic energy. when the music gets very complicated it sorts out the various musical parts and allows more detail to come thru. it's more like natural music. more real.

mikelavigne September 07, 2012 21:53

hi Mike,
first congratulation for your great system and amazing room.
I am involved for my system, on acoustic treatment of my living room (is a semi dedicated music room).
I have been initialized to this such kind of "drug" by Jean-Frederich Kuentz (Stereotaipei).
My system is: Berkeley Alpha (DAC+USB), Spectral gears and Avalon Eidolon (MIT and Elrod cables).
I am looking now for "Diffuser" and I see which you have 3 Skyline diffusers behind the loudspeakers.
May I ask you which modification of sound image you obtained introducing this kind of diffusers?
Soundstage move forward the speakers?

caliaripaolo September 04, 2012 12:22

Marc,

you are certainly correct about the bass towers. the location of the bass towers is signifcant. i asked Kevin Malmgren, the designer, this question and here is his response.

I will try to simplify this as much as possible. The MM7 was designed to have the subwoofer towers side-by-side with the main towers in a complete time and phase aligned orientation, as shown in the picture on our website, and also as how you listened to the mono channel when you were at my place.
While it is true that the lower frequencies have much larger waves, getting them to integrate in phase with the main tower is really not much of an issue when it comes to room placement, meaning you will not experience much if any wave cancellation. However, the wave launch, when having the towers perfectly time aligned to the listening chair is needed to provide a tighter presentation with greater impact, and also to align the harmonic series from top to bottom to produce a seamless and tonally lifelike presentation. This is not to say that you can not move the towers around, because you can.
Remember, we are only talking about a subwoofer tower that is coming in at around 30 to 40Hz at most, so most all music information will be coming from the main towers. The benefit of being able to move the sub towers is if you have a room that is not friendly in the deep bass region (this would have to be a really bad room where even the amplifier controls on the subwoofer modules can not bring the bass up enough). In this case, you may want the main towers where you get the best sonic presentation, but you may have to push the sub towers to another region of the room to get bass all the way down below 40Hz flat. If this was a speaker system contained all in one tower and the best location for sub 40Hz range was all the way against the back wall, imagine how the mid-bass, midrange, depth, etc. would suffer.
The only other reason I could see for moving the sub towers is for aesthetic purposes within the listening space. Some people may not want to have a wall of speakers, and being able to push the sub towers to another location may be more acceptable.

In a nutshell, if you want to stay true to my design, then yes you must have the towers all perfectly time-aligned to the listening chair. However, if your room is not producing good frequency response in this situation and you value that over time domain launch, then you can always move the subs to get the best frequency bandwidth. Or, you may just want to visually downsize the appearance of the speakers in your room.

i figured there would be the least confusion if i just related what he wrote.

enjoy.

mikelavigne August 25, 2012 15:36

Mike, any thoughts on my q re integration of bass from your separate towers in the MM7s due soon. It's hard enough getting the placement of simple subwoofers right, let alone 8 x 15" woofers. I'm totally unsure how moving bass drivers from a time aligned array when part of the main tower to an isolated location can be good for one's mental health with the myriad of poor integration choices possible.

spiritofmusic August 22, 2012 09:08

Mike,

Thanks, while in town I am hoping to head out and see a few of these shops. I assume they all have websites, so I can check them out. I will for sure need to make it over to Definitive Audio since I used to visit their shop in Bellevue back in 1992 when I lived in Overlake. Wish I would be in town the 2nd Thursday, but the dates I will be in town are Sept 19-30.

THank you for the information, I appreciate it.

harris4crna August 22, 2012 07:27

hi Shawn,

Carnation is close, so when you are there let me know and we will set up a time.

as far as HiFi shops in Seattle, there are a few. in Bellevue there is Definative Audio on N.E. 24th in the Overlake area. right across the street is Madrona Digital which is a bit more Home Theatre but it does do some 2 channel.

in Seattle there is sort of a HiFi Ghetto just north of the University district along Roosevelt Ave. you have the Seattle Definative Audio, Magnolia HiFi, and then Hawthorne right across the street. then a few blocks southeast on University Ave you have The Audio Connection and Experience Audio just down the street.

all these places have turntables, although the amount and their knowledge about them does vary from place to place. and some of the people i know quite well and others not so much.

Hawthorne, Audio Connection and Experience are quite a bit more involved with turntables than the others.

there are probably a few more that i don't know about that are under my radar. good luck and have fun.

we do have an active audio club and lots of knowledge there about turntables and you would be more than welcome to attend if you are in town on the 2nd Thursday night of the month.

mikelavigne August 21, 2012 23:54

Mike,

Thanks and i may take you up on it. I will be staying with my sister in Carnation. It would be great to hear and pick your brain. Trust me, my novice mind needs filling. While in town, I wanted to check out a few hifi audio shops. Do you have a couple favorites in the Seattle area?

Shawn

harris4crna August 21, 2012 17:47

Thanks Mike.

It's not easy to get a longterm audition of all different configurations so your feedback really helps. Sometimes simpler designs executed well achieve the goal. Most of us strive for perfection but as the Russian Space Engineers use to say " better is the enemy of good enough". Hope you enjoy the new additions to your system.

Kostas

kkatsipanos August 18, 2012 15:36

Hi Mike,

Very useful observations. On the subject of effective length, is 12" the way to go for superior audio performance versus using 9" ? Any thoughts on internal/external tonearm wiring? Will continuous wiring from cartridge to plugs give superior performance rather than 2 or more wiring sections?

Thanks again

Kostas

i'm no expert on the technical side of why things are the way they are. it seems likely that 12" is better based on my observations. but i have a very limited exposure to short and long versions of the same tonearm. generalizations are always tricky. my favorite tonarm is 12". my second and third favorite are both 10.5".

i suspect that as you get higher and higher in build quality that the 12" tonearm is more and more likely to sound better than the shorter versions. at more moderate price ranges and build quality it might be that the performance of the longer tonearms are more different than better.

but i'm just guessing since i have not listened to enough tonearms where identical tonearms are long and short to be able to speak with more conviction.

i am a proponent of a continuous run of cable from cartridge pin to phono stage. OTOH i know many feel strongly that they want to buy super high level separate phono cables and use those. i know Albert likes a $10k retail phono cable on his around $3k SME tonearm. the question then becomes whether Albert's $13k tonearm-cable combo sounds better than an $8k tonearm with a captured cable. you'd need to listen and compare them.

i know my Telos uses the continuous run approach and i have no plans on changing.

cable questions are always a crap shoot, but no doubt tonearm cables are hugely important.

mikelavigne August 16, 2012 22:17

hi Peter,

no; i have had no opportunity to compare the Anna directly to the Atlas or Air Tight Supreme. i did that comparison thing at the Newport Show but that was different rooms and systems. i don't view that as any sort of evidence of anything. i would love to hear a head to head between the Anna and the Atlas or any number of other highly regarded cartridges.

i expect that since the Anna is finally released now it's only a matter of time before we start to hear about head to head comparisons.

my Anna was originally used as a demo at CES, it's serial number 8 (interestingly my original A90 was also serial number 8). i don't believe it was pre-production. i had asked if i could buy one of the demo's and i was able to when the dealer that had it decided not to buy it. the Anna was suppose to be on sale retail in Feb or March. then, for whatever reason, it was delayed.

i do know jtinn has had his Anna supply for a few weeks now....and that those are the first retail wave of them to hit to my knowledge.

mikelavigne August 16, 2012 21:09

Mike, Have you had a chance to compare the Anna to an Lyra Atlas, Air Tight Supreme (which I own), or any of the other top MC cartridges? I'd be curious to read your impressions.

You have also had yours now for quite a while. Was it a pre-production version? I'm wondering because it seems that not many other Audiogoners own one and judging from Fred's comments, perhaps they are just now available. Thanks.

peterayer August 16, 2012 20:28

hi Fred,

i know that jtinn does have a supply of MC Anna's but i've not seen them anywhere else. i have no knowledge about filling orders beyond that. i'm trying to rationalize buying a second Anna as a backup 'just in case' since i would not want to be without it, but with my new speakers and amps now is likely not the time to spend more money.

i've certainly been enjoying mine and if anything, am even more enthralled with it than earlier. i do look forward to your impressions when you do recieve yours. hopefully it will be soon.

mikelavigne August 16, 2012 19:43

Hi Mike,

Very useful observations. On the subject of effective length, is 12" the way to go for superior audio performance versus using 9" ? Any thoughts on internal/external tonearm wiring? Will continuous wiring from cartridge to plugs give superior performance rather than 2 or more wiring sections?

Thanks again

Kostas

kkatsipanos August 16, 2012 19:30

Mike,
I am one of the many that has had an MC Anna on order for an extended period. Do you have any information about when Ortofon will begin shipping the cartridges to thoose on the waiting list in the US? Your comments on the cartridge were the primary factor that led me to order one, although already owning an A90 was also a factor.

Thanks in advance,
Fred

fcrowder August 16, 2012 15:15

Kostos,

my above answer to your question is incomplete.

for periods of time in the past i have done the small adjustments for different thicknesses of Lps and i do acknowledge there is some small rationalization for it from a performance perspective. on the Rockport it was very quick and easy to loosen the set screw and turn the height adjustment on the top of the arm tower a quarter turn up or down to compensate for the pressing thickness. however, i did not continue to do it for a long period because it interupted my music focus and flow of listening. and it was a question from pressing to pressing whether it had any effect. it would cause a 'critcal' focus where i just wanted to relax into the music. it did not fit my listening culture comfortably.

i have no issue that it is important to other listeners. whatever floats your boat.

one technical issue i did not bring up in my response above is that when the VTA is adjusted, it can effect VTF and possibly even anti-skate or azimuth depending on the arm. so always messing with VTA might cause less than ideal adjustments to other varibles. again, as the precision of arms increases (and distortion decreases) the precision of the arm in all these adjustments is greater and more important. so just moving around one varible without optimizing all of them as they are all interactive is just chasing your tail.

so it's not just that i have an opinion that the best arm i've heard is not easy to on the fly VTA adjustment, it's also that it's not fun and did not, in my personal experience, bring me more musical enjoyment.

mikelavigne August 16, 2012 13:58

Bill,

good idea. i will try to remember to take some pics of the mayhem. i'm lucky i do have a few local friends who have offered to help so it should go quickly.

at the end, my garage will be full of 14 large wooden crates. i do have my camera in room and ready.

mikelavigne August 16, 2012 13:40

Mike: Might be fun for you to do a photo journal of load-in and set-up, although you'll probably have your hands full...
Best,

whart August 16, 2012 02:57

On a scale from 1 to 10 ( 10=essential), how important is it from your experience the facility of being able to adjust vta on the fly ? Do you find yourself adjusting it for every record or for every group of records with particular thickness and how often? Do tonearms with vta on the fly hold the adjustment better over time than tonearms with vta adjustment but not on the fly?

hi Kostos,

my perspective on this issue has changed over time. in a perfect world all parameters would be dynamically adjustable, VTA, VTF, azimuth, SRA, even zenith. with the Talea 2 i was able to adjust VTA and azimuth on the fly. on the Reed, Triplaner and Rockport i could adjust VTA on the fly. and this did allow for a more precise dialing in process.

however, as arms become more precise, the ability to do these adjustments comes at a price of overall build integrity. every time you make an adjustment to a mechanical arm there is a settling process that the arm goes thru. and the compromise involved in providing for dynamic adjustments seems to extract a price in ultimate solidity and therefore ultimate precision and performance.

i have no scientific proof of my above opinion; it's simply an observation based on watching development of the Durand Telos tonearm and how the elimination of dynamic adjustments increased the performance. everything matters. and as distortion decreases overall, everything matters more.

i can see that at particular points on the performance curve, changing VTA on every record might yield some slight performance advantage. but at the top of the state of the art i think it would not be the correct approach.

so the answer is 'it depends'. and i'm ignoring the whole 'how much pain for how much pleasure' rationalization.

mikelavigne August 16, 2012 00:33

Mike, I'm always a little confused as to how separate bass towers integrate from a time delay/point source point of view. With your MM3s, the twin 15" woofers per side are lined up with mids and tweeters in a time aligned array.
I presume with the MM7s the woofer tower may be situated quite separate from the main towers and possibly some distance back.
I fully understand this new uber spkr will give you maximum capability in most parameters, but how hard is it going to be to dial in that just perfect bass integration with physical separation of bass drivers from the rest?

spiritofmusic August 16, 2012 00:01

Hi Mike,

On a scale from 1 to 10 ( 10=essential), how important is it from your experience the facility of being able to adjust vta on the fly ? Do you find yourself adjusting it for every record or for every group of records with particular thickness and how often? Do tonearms with vta on the fly hold the adjustment better over time than tonearms with vta adjustment but not on the fly?

Thank you

Kostas

kkatsipanos August 15, 2012 11:36

at this point it seems the MM7's are scheduled to arrive very late September (not early Sept as i had thought). the main towers will arrive first and then the bass towers 2 weeks later. right around RMAF, so i will be staying home this year.

this change in schedule is mostly due to the time and complication of building the first 2 sets of the MM7's taking a few weeks longer each than originally anticipated. i do respect and appreciate the degree of effort these beasts require. i know the wait will be worth it.

mikelavigne August 14, 2012 13:40

Llbelchevv, Dartzeel and Evolution Acoustics are a bit out of my price range. Personally, my limit is around $15000 per front end/amps/spkrs, and my list of components in my dedicated thread will reflect this. Will list them in Oct.

spiritofmusic August 08, 2012 20:30

Spiritofmusic writes:

Hoping to have my own system thread up in Oct.

Good man.

Regards,

metralla August 08, 2012 02:22