Henryhk, i'm sorry if i gave the impression that i haven't been listening to rock/jazz/blues.....that is what i DO listen to about 80% of the time. my 'classical' comments were more an issue of how this amp/pre allows a non-classical person to 'get' classical since they sound so much more natural.

the dart pre and amps really ROCK! last night i listened till about 2:30 in the morning......i couldn't stop. i listened to Stevie Ray Vaughn's 'Tin Pan Alley' 3 times.....phenominal!!! the experience of that recording last night was trancendant. this is a 'touchstone' recording for me......and to hear it come so alive (that's the only word for it) was an experience i just didn't want to end.

transients are lightning quick, yet completely natural. the bass is deep and impactfull. if the recording has an edge it is there.....but in a natural fully rendered way.

i was running a $200 set of Audioquest cables on the woofer/subs......and i was running the Elrod EPS-2's (which are the entry level Elrods mean't for digital) power cords on the darTZeel amps (i have Elrod Statements for my Tenors but they use 20amp IEC's). my perception was that the amazing bass impact and dynamics i had been getting on the 300 watt Tenor Hybrids were noticably less with the 2 dart amps. the deep bass extention and speed was still there with even better articulation and coherence but without the weight and dynamics.

my friend that brought over the Opus also brought over some Elrod Signature EPS-3's. the change in power cords made a huge difference in the bass impact and dynamaics......bringing the 2 dart amps nearly even to the Tenors with the Elrod Statements. from my recollection of the effect of the Statements on that issue compared to any other power cords i would expect that with the same power cords as the Tenors 2 darts would be very close to the Tenors at impact and dynamics. remember, my room is 29' x 21' x 11' with extensive bass traping built in. most rooms would be easily controlled by 2 darTZeel amps.

with the better power cords combined with the second set of Opus speaker cables the dart 'system' is at simply a mind-boggling level of bass performance....which translates to 'action' in the soundstage and imaging that has to be heard to be believed.

last night i dragged out many old familiar rock, jazz and blues recordings......and they were all reborn to me......with much more substance and life.

mikelavigne September 25, 2005 12:02

Sjmgr, thanks again for the kind words. things here on the 'Gon can get testy sometimes.....i understand.

"extra courage and investment".....that's my problem....sometimes i have too much courage.....which results in too much investment. ;^)

mikelavigne September 25, 2005 11:10

Mikel,

Who carries the Von Schweikert line in the Pacific Northwest? Where did you get yours as I am interested in getting a different model? Thanks for the feedback!

dalton September 25, 2005 03:45

"if you read about how a wife killed her husband over an audio addition you'll know who that was."

I won't be surprised by this, hehehe ...

Mike, as I have already told you, you only need the extra courage and investment, to do justice to the darTs :^)

Sj

sjmgr September 25, 2005 01:30

Thanks for the invitation, Mike. I'm currently in LA. But I will definitely try to connect in Denver.

islandear September 25, 2005 00:05

Mike, let me me know when u start listening to rock/jazz/blues post the pre....I am more inclined to those types of music so quite interested out the pre-power set up you have is having an impact compared to others u have had in the past.

henryhk September 24, 2005 22:14

just when you think it can not get any more any more obscene as far as the price/value curve........a friend brings over HIS set of Opus speaker cables ($33k each) to try on the bass of my VR9's while my set of Opus is on the mid/tweeter.

as i sit here listening thru $66k worth (hah!) of speaker cables i just smile. sonofabitch if it isn't ridiculously special in the bass.....and therefore everywhere.

what's a guy to do?

if you read about how a wife killed her husband over an audio addition you'll know who that was.

now we return you to your normally scheduled program.

mikelavigne September 24, 2005 21:17

Andy,

Thank a lot for your kind words. I am lucky to have the darT amp with me. The preamp is on order and should arrive a few months later.

Totally concur with you about the necessity of SOTA isolation. I would say that darT gear require our ultra care and intense efforts in order to explore its real capability (Believe it or not :-)

From a silly audio nut
Sjmgr

sjmgr September 24, 2005 02:47

Mike,

Thank you and I would be most glad to chat with you more. I am hestiate to post here as I believe audio is a highly subjective and controversial hobby. For me, the goal is so far away and I have no clue as to where it is or how should I get there.

My recent experience with darT do remedy the situation. Of course, I still got a long way to go.

I always admire your system, especially the room acoustics and your collections, as I think I could not catch up or even follow close behind to you :-)

I've got the amp with me now and the pre is on order.

If you don't mind, please send me an email via Agon and I would be most glad to exchange more ideas with you.

Sjmgr

sjmgr September 24, 2005 02:20

Sjmgr,

your contribution is not only welcome, it is appreciated. this is not a closed discusion......in fact, the more the merrier. we clearly have musical and sonic tastes in common.

i would enjoy it if you would expand on your experience with the darTZeel......i always enjoy hearing another viewpoint. do you have the dart amp or pre on order?

i had previously looked at the other posts you have made to try and understand your perspective.....but there was not much info.

i do have about 750 classical cds and sacds and maybe 1000+ classical lps.....but i do expect that to grow even more as classical really sounds great when instrument timbre and clarity is so good. other musical genre's do sound great too but classical seems to have benefited the most since it is the more difficult for me to connect with easily. any veiling or edgyness with classical and i just go on to something else.

and we are all 'silly audio nuts'.

mikelavigne September 23, 2005 23:39

Mike,

Listening classical music from the darTs is the real treat, though other music should also sounds very nice. Your classical collections should start to grow much faster from now on :-)

Sorry for chiming in your discussion with Andy. From my very limited and incomplete experience on darT, I would think isolations and other factors should make the difference. You should know far better than I do that we really need a little bit of luck to be able to come accross the useful improvement approaches.

Being a silly audio nut, there is a few months' waiting for me to have the all darTs experience. Thanks a lot for your sharing and this makes my waiting worthwhile.

Sjmgr

sjmgr September 23, 2005 21:59

Andy,

the pre is sitting on the GP rack spot vacated by my switchbox. this is one of the Formula shelves.....i have the 21-40 pound foam disc in back and 2 41-65 pound foam disc's in front since the pre is quite front heavy (the batteries are toward the front of the pre).

the small power supply box (that has the charging system in it) sits on my short Zeothecus rack next to the GP rack.

i have not done any experimenting with other isolation approaches with it. the concept of improved performance seems almost silly (but probably exisits none the less).

i assume that the GP racks have made a difference but experimentation will be required to confirm that.

mikelavigne September 23, 2005 12:14

Islandear, be afraid, be very afraid. this is the real deal. i keep expecting the bubble to burst......but instead another layer of the onion drops away.

the set-up in Denver will mostly match what i have here other than speaker cables and tt (and room). but hard to imagine that it won't be very close.

since you are 'in the neighborhood' you are welcome to come over for a visit this weekend and assist some others in the 'investigation'. in any case please look me up and introduce yourself in Denver.

mikelavigne September 23, 2005 09:39

Sjmgr, "immersed in a sea of music" pretty much says it all. each time i sit down to listen i am startled by the closeness of music. my senses have not yet adjusted to the new reference. my brain tells me this is now how it is, but my emotions are still being stirred up.......goosebump city.

those moments of musical truth that we all are trying to achieve and appreciating so much are now where i am. i can throw any piece of music on and there is a specialness.

it is actually laughable how i now can hear that distortion or veiling was never the software but the reproduction chain......like seeing a flower the first time for a blind man that can see for the first time......words cannot describe it. you have to see it for yourself.

this is now the third day......the system has warmed up, settled in some......and is really together. classical music is just too much......pretty much anything i put on has such a natural timbre and immediate feel......it's musical bliss. i can play things at such low SPL's and still the music just leaps out at me. so intimate. so personal.

i'm just relating my feelings as i sit here listening.

mikelavigne September 23, 2005 09:32

"OTOH i would agree that the combo of gear we both have (and will have) seems to approach the performance goals we share better than any i have heard......so at least for our tastes (considering the very few systems like ours that exist) for the moment we might be closer to performance limits than most others.....but my opinion on that is quite narrow."

Well said, Mike.

IMHO, I would think having the darTs in the system will bring us much closer to the performance limits.

We only need to concentrate to work on and match with other system components and parameters, in order to reach our goal in audio. For me, the darTs is the indispensable roadmap.

Thanks,
Sjmgr

sjmgr September 23, 2005 04:31

Mike, frankly, you guys are starting to scare the crap out of me. I've watched the last couple of changes in your room - hold it, I'm drooling again - and every time I think that you're gonna hit the wall you find another key to sonic bliss. I'm not sure I want to hear your system cuz I think it will ruin me. But, being a manly man, I will take my chances and check out the set up in Denver. I just hope I don't find it as compelling as you have...hah.

islandear September 22, 2005 23:57

Mike, I enjoy reading your 'rave' very much, but, I would believe they are not 'rave' and it is natural to be awed by the properly implemented full darT system initially, and to be immersed in the sea of music afterwards :-)

Cheers,

Sjmgr

sjmgr September 22, 2005 22:55

Andy,

so i was THAT predictable. ;^)

after we (you, MES, and myself) heard that pre at CES last year it was always in the back of my mind....but i remained skeptical until i actually heard it in my room.

trust me, on the money part i'm with you. i will need to sell a bunch of stuff to make this work for me. the wife has me on a very short leash. unlike some guys, i can't afford multiple expensive hobbies either. no complaints; but that is the way things are for me.

i try not to think of 'best' or ranking systems....but more a matter of finding a place of enjoyment and satisfaction. too many different approaches and personal taste issues for best room/system anyway.

OTOH i would agree that the combo of gear we both have (and will have) seems to approach the performance goals we share better than any i have heard......so at least for our tastes (considering the very few systems like ours that exist) for the moment we might be closer to performance limits than most others.....but my opinion on that is quite narrow.

mikelavigne September 22, 2005 20:57

Sjmgr, i'm glad you enjoyed my 'rave'. thanks.

Lohanimal, thanks for the kind words.

actually, a few months back i did switch from the Kharma Exquisite's to the Von Schweikert VR9SE's. if you look above in this thread you can read about my reasons and my impressions. i still love the Kharmas.

i think my hearing is fine but nothing special. OTOH i have had the priviledge of a high resolution system that gives me a solid reference to compare things to. as the system approaches my goals, changes become easier to percieve and identify. in this case the changes were quite dramatic and clear even with casual listening.

regarding the phono stage in the darTZeel preamp; the use of battery power really eliminates the normal advantage of a stand alone phono stage; which may be a better power supply. there is no better power supply than correctly designed battery power. after hearing it for myself i am a believer.

i did read (as much as time permitted) some of your reviews. from what i did read about your sonic goals....you would love the sound of the darTZeel pre and phono stage. and BTW, i enjoyed the perspective of your reviews.

mikelavigne September 22, 2005 20:40

I musr say that you must have ears like a bat - so that you can take in all the sound. I have, amongst friends, when asked what I think is the definitive system, your happens to have most of those dream goodies - the Rockport Sirius 3, and Kharma Speakers!

Out of interest I see you highly rate the dartseel and the phono stage on the pre-amp - is it really as good as a stand alone, because I like the idea of an intergrated pre - see my reviews

lohanimal September 22, 2005 15:22

Thank you very much, Mike.

I could feel your joy in the revelation of music after launching the darTs in your system.

Congratulations!

Sjmgr

sjmgr September 22, 2005 04:12

i sit here in awe of what i am hearing;

there are NO trade-offs.

the phono section of the darTZeel preamp is by far the best i have ever heard when combined with this darTZeel system. i have never heard better music reproduction. could there be a better phono stage? i will go out on a very stout limb and venture an opinion on that; i don't think any phono stage unless combined with this preamp could be competitive with what i am hearing. the Boulder? the Connoisseur Definitions? not if they were used with other pre's......and i have heard the CD with it's pre.

i have not used the Lamm into the darTZeel pre to compare directly to the dart's internal phono stage.....but i know there is a warmth to the Lamm that would take away from the utter truth i am hearing.

from where i sit right now there are two kinds of systems......those with this darTZeel preamp and those without. it is that much better than anything i have heard.

does that make my feelings clear enough?

in the last 4 years i have compared my passive pre and switchbox to many of the best pre's out there......at least 10 or so......and i've heard most of the others. this thing makes everything else sound broken.

i may sound nuts.....but withhold your judgement until you hear this thing.

let's see......did i leave myself any wiggle room? nope. sometimes you just gotta take a stand.

this weekend hopefully i can get a few friends to come over and either drink the koolaid or slap some sense into me.....i'm betting heavily on the koolaid.

mikelavigne September 22, 2005 03:42

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your first impression on the whole "darTZeel" experience. Please keep us informed.

Please enjoy.

Sjmgr

sjmgr September 21, 2005 03:11

imagine that you were born into a world where everything had a greyness......a coarse sandy texture......like looking thru a screendoor at a beautiful pasture. you lived with this for so long it became your reality. you came to attach value to that veil. it was your reference.

this world also has clearly defined edges to things. you have come to attach value to these edges and interpret them as detail and truth.

tonight with this system plugged in i was hearing something different than i have ever experienced. i tasted it last year at CES and a couple of nights ago with the 'ugly duckling'.......but not to this degree. at first it was beyond me to get a grip on what i was listening to. was something missing? if so....what was missing? as i listened i tried to rationalize what this was like.

it wasn't like tubes.......where there is a softness that colors things. it wasn't like solid state........where there can be an ultra-detailed clarity but also a one-dimentionality and sterile character.

as i listened more i tried to compare what i was hearing to some reference. it dawned on me that this was only music without that familiar grain and edge. yes, that haze was missing......and now there is a natural definition to music like you get live......no sharp edges but also plenty of transient snap and micro-dynamics......but no spot-lighting or stark contrasts.

just music.

WOW! I'm there.

these are first impressions of the whole darTZeel 'system' in my room fully fuctional......i reserve the right to backtrack when i have put in more listening time. i have listened for about 4 hours so far.

i have only listened to the darTZeel phono stage for about 30 minutes so far. it is pretty damn good. maybe really really good......at least competitive with my Lamm. i need to get my bearings before i go any farther.

if this sounds like a bunch of cliche's.....so be it. everyone will be unconvinced until they hear it for themselves. i need more time to get my bearings. will i feel the same about what i am hearing tomorrow? are there trade-offs?

we will see.

mikelavigne September 21, 2005 02:11

Hey Andy,

yes, those Jena's are really special.

you had to know i was already all over the dart pre. i will be driving to Portland and back tonight to pick up the new Dart pre and an additional Dart amp. tomorrow night i will be able to fire up the whole system (dart pre, 2 dart amps, and BNC cables) and finally see how it all works.

Jonathan says it is BEAUTIFUL (in a swiss GOLD kinda way).

last night i did insert the 'ugly duckling'......even though there were rough edges on that 'trial' horse (the developmental prototype that was at 2005 CES).....there was much magic also.

you can bet i'll be doing some VERY focused listening for the next few days as the pre and amps need to be in Denver next week. i am very curious how the phono stage will sound.

i can't wait.

mikelavigne September 19, 2005 18:06