Mike,

Thanks very the prompt and extremely helpful answer. I followed the instructions and added the entire bottle of cleaning fluid to 5 quarts of water and the result is exactly as you have described. I will try reducing the detergent. The only time that I have any water left is when I change from 180 or 200 gram records to thinner issues. I think that the thicker records temporarily deform the wipers. They do adjust after a record or two.

I am unsure whether the de-ionized water is also distilled but I suspect that the de-ionization alone probably accomplished the same thing. I buy the de-ionized water at a laboratory supply store in a 20 liter carboy. It was the purest water that they sold, better than distilled according to them. Reagent grade I believe refers to the purity.

Fred

fcrowder August 20, 2013 18:39

hi Fred,

my current Audio Desk RCM (my 3rd one) dries 100% drip free. I've not tried (re-agent grade) de-ionized water, just distilled water only so far. I only use a cap full of the cleaning fluid when I change the water which never foams and seems to be the correct amount after years of experimentation. it's using too much cleaning fluid which causes issues in my experience. I cannot comment on photo flow but I think there does need to be some sort of something added to allow for complete drying.

your idea about the de-ionized water sounds good, the car wash at my dealership also rinses with de-ionized water and we also use it with a wash truck on our lot for our inventory since soap is not legal to use draining into the storm sewer......so i'm a believer in the benefits of de-ionized water. I may try it sometime in the AD or even the Klaudio and see if I can hear a difference.

a question for you; is the de-ionized water you use also distilled? is that what 're-agent' means? and where do you source that water?

my current AD unit has worked flawlessly for me for 7 months. the Klaudio unit has been great from the start too.

mikelavigne August 20, 2013 14:00

Mike,

I am generally a late adopter of new technology and have just bought an Audio Desk RCM. It is my impression that the sound of records that have been cleaned in the AD are improved by a rinse with reagent grade de-ionized water. Have you noticed this? Would you recommend using the AD with de-ionized water and not adding their fluid? Have you considered using photoflow in the new machine to aid sheeting?

Thanks in advance for any comments.

Fred

fcrowder August 19, 2013 17:42

Hi Mike,

Did the attendees express a preference on which of the sources that you used they preferred?

I can only imagine the Riders of the Storm was amazing with Fly me to the Moon coming a close second.

Regards

Steve

cyclopse August 12, 2013 21:20

Hi Mike,

Sounds fun ;-)
Wish I could have been there!

Sam

c1ferrari August 10, 2013 15:22

last night I hosted a local PNWAS (Pacific Northwest Audio Society) club meeting in my room.

we had 30+ people attend (36 had RSVP'd). We started playing music at 6pm, the official meeting started at 7:30pm, and the official meeting ended at 10pm, although a number of people stayed until after 11pm. most everyone stayed in the room from 7:30 thru 10pm.

I just finished doing a playlist for the club and figured some might enjoy seeing the selections that I choose to play.

Before 7:30 pm we played;

½” RTR tape, ‘ the Doors’, Riders in the Storm’……..Boz Scaggs, ‘Lowdown’…..Van Morrison, ‘Into the Mystic’.

¼” RTR tape, Diana Krall, Live in Paris, ‘Fly Me To The Moon’

Lps,

Count Basie and the Kansas Ciity Septem, Blues and Some Others, ‘I’m Confessin That I Love You’, ‘I Want A Little Girl’, Pablo Lp.

Flight Path, Sphere, ‘If I Should Lose You’, Electra Musician, 60313-1

Oscar Peterson & Dizzy Gillespie, ‘Caravan, Pablo Lp.

Dsd From my server thru the Playback Designs from a preloaded playlist, mostly classical and mostly native dsd original master files;

Podger-Mozart Sonata in C major, andante, Channel Classics
Podger, Mozart Sonata in C, Adigio Molto Allegro, Channel Classics
Fischer, Mahler Symphony No. 2, Andanta Moderato, Channel Classics
Fischer, Schubert, Symphony No 9 in C major, Andante-Allegro ma non troppo, Channel Classics
Stotijn, double bass, Bottesini Grand Duo Concertant in A Major, Channel Classics
Fischer, Brahms Hungarian Dance, Channel Classics
Wispelwey, Lazie; Piano Cello, Brahms Sonata voor Cello en Piano in e-Klein, Channel Classics
Andrew Lawrence-King, Villancico Canten dos jiguerillos, The Harp Consort, Missa Mexicana, Harmonia Mundi
Angela Hewitt, Rameau, e minor suite, Harmonia Mundi

List for after 7:30 pm;

We started with a replay of brief selections of the same dsd preloaded playlist as above.

Next I played tracks from 4 CD’s on the Playback Designs.

Harry Connick Jr., ‘She’, ‘Joe Slam and the Spaceship, approx. 2 minutes. Columbia CD.
He Xun Tian, ‘Paramita’, Earth Drums, about 2 minutes. Wind Record Co. TCD-5258
Eiji Oue, Copland-Fanfare For the Common Man, 2 minutes. RR-93 CD.
Eagles, Hell Freezes Over, Hotel California, 2 minutes, XRDC.

Then we played the following stereo Lps;

The Allman Brothers, Live at the Fillmore East, ‘Stormy Monday’, Nautilus Lp.
Cowboy Junkies, Trinity Sessions, ‘Sweet Jane’, Classic Records 45rpm single sided Lp.
Brown-Almeida, ‘Moonlight Serenade’, Direct-to-Disc Jeton Lp.
Ray Lamontagne, Till the Sun Turns Black, ‘You Can Bring Me Flowers’, RCA/Legacy Lp.
Santana, first album, ‘Jingo’, MFSL Lp.
Belafonte Sings The Blues, ‘A Fool For You’, Classic 45rpm single sided Lp.
Ricci, Carmen Fantaisie, Decca reissue Lp from Speaker’s Corner.
Mulligan Meets Webster, Cat Walk, 45rpm reissue Lp, Org 013.
Led Zep II, ‘Whole Lotta Love’, Classic 45rpm single sided box set.

We played 2 mono Lps on the other Telos tone arm with the Miyajima mono cartridge; I did not mention that we were playing mono until half way thru the first cut. (not one comment that it might be a mono pressing).

Rolling Stones, Aftermath, Lady Jane, Under My Thumb, Decca Mono Lp LK 4786, early pressing.
Billie Holliday, ‘Body and Soul’, Verve, Clef Series, mono Lp, early pressing.

Back to Stereo….

Pink Floyd, Meddle, ‘Fearless’, EMI Harvest SHVL 795, original pressing Lp.
Ray Charles and Betty Carter, ‘Baby, it’s Cold Outside’, DCC reissue Lp.
Heifetz, Bruch, Scottish Fantasy, Classic 45rpm single sided pressing Lp.

Then we played some tape;

½” 15ips, Bob Marley, Legend, ‘Could You Be Loved’.
¼” 15ips, Miles Davis, Live At The Blackhawk, ‘All of You’, ‘No Blues’.
¼” 15ips, Oscar Peterson, We Get Requests, ‘Have You Met Miss Jones’, ‘You Look Good To Me’.

There were three tracks we played that guests brought but my memory is not quite good enough to have accurate info to list.

mikelavigne August 10, 2013 05:43

Ok Mike, I've been looking at your system(s)for about ten years. I think it's about time that I post here after reading about your audio journey for so long. Great system.
.

mitch4t August 08, 2013 05:51

Mike, I wanted to take time out to apologise if my comments on another forum re active isolation crossed the line into overly pointed criticism of you (and Christian). This was not my intention. I just struggled a little to shed skepticism in an area which has never provided much advancement in my system. And criticism is always sharpened if costs seem exorbitant.
My considered views after a day's audition re Accurion was that I was pleasantly suprised by the improvements on offer, but it wasn't quite in the same league as the move to 8kVA balanced power and Entreq grounding, this c25% of the cost of going active isolation, and c2x the benefit.
I'm going to exhaust all other upgrades to system improvements (cabling/power/grounding/acoustics) and take the plunge on active isolation as my last, most pricey enhancement.
Again, no offence intended. My enthusiasm for power is poss equivalent to yours for active isolation. Btw, how do you rank the improvements going to balanced power, and then going to active isolation in your system? I know you rave about both. How would you measure the bump up in SQ btwn the two areas of radical steps up?

spiritofmusic August 06, 2013 12:54

It's interesting that a PC water cooling company has decided to venture into ultrasonic LP cleaners. Koolance has been making great water cooling products for the DIY PC modding community for years. No wonder the product looks so well made (from the outside). Had the Audiodesk, must say its a great idea but has reliability issues. Sold mine after 8 months cos I didn't want the problems my pal faced with his.

jigstersg August 03, 2013 01:13

Hi Mike, thanks for the response and I really will try to take you up on the invitation one day. Last time I was in your neck of the woods was a few years ago but maybe someday. I have always tried to check in on your system regularly, but time flies. It's always been an inspiration. It's refreshing to hear you speak of the particular music you're listening to, most of your updates are equipment based, which are great but the music is where it's at. I'm more of a HT guy, but a couple of years ago I bought some Westone 4 In-Ears and they have done wonders for my appreciation of music. I'm going to have to find that Fleetwood Mac recording and give it a listen. I'll try to remember to post my thoughts, should be fun. I just moved a year ago and have yet to build my new system but when I do I'm planning on focusing more on 2ch music than HT with the hope that if it sounds great for one, should sound great for the other. We'll see...anyways, take care!

ericeash August 02, 2013 15:35

Mike hopefully KL audio is more reliable than audio desk. Out of 8 audio desk purchased, 4 unused & all 4 used developed problems within a short period of time including mine . 1 developed another problem right after it was suppose to be repaired the 3rd time. Keeping my fig crossed that mine won't developed another problem. Having said that audio desk is the most convenient LP cleaners I ever have which include VPI 17f & loricraft PRC4 .

audioblazer August 02, 2013 15:23

last night i cleaned 15 Lps on the Klaudio, and another 7-8 on the Audio Desk. this was while i was listening in about 90 minutes.

both machines are simply so easy to use and all the Lps came out perfectly dry and clean. some were very thin pressings....nary a drop of water.

i'm still trying to hear a difference. i think that the Klaudio reveals a touch more clarity....like a slight bit of cleaner window. when i clean a previously Audio Desk cleaned Lp with the Klaudio i 'think' i get a bit more mid and upper octave openness.

these are small changes, but consistent. i like that nothing touches the Lp except distilled water.

anyway, there is an update for you all.

mikelavigne July 31, 2013 13:23

hi Eric,

sorry for the delay in my response.

thank you for your very kind words. i noticed that the last time you commented on my thread was 2005. nice to see you here again now after 8 years.

i have really been enjoying my pathway to musical bliss. and you would be most welcome to visit and bring your music if you are ever in the neighborhood.

as far as what one song or album that gets the most play in my system, i'm not sure i can think of one only. and one reason i delayed in answering your question was that i have tried to think about how to answer it. i would say that over the years certain songs or albums have captured my focus for periods of time, but then i move on from that to something else. then months or years or decades later i might return to that earlier focus. music is like that, it gets under your skin and captures your soul, and you want to lose yourself into it fully. at least that is how it works for me. and what drives me to get closer and closer to the music thru improving my system.

if i had to choose one cut or one album over the long term it would likely have to be The Beatles, Abbey Road, side 2. likely the best ever pop/rock music yet written, played or recorded. i like the MoFi pressing myself and have a few copies of it. i was a senior in High School when it came out and it is absolutely personal with me. so it speaks to me on many levels.

i do not use it for system diagnosis, and rarely when i have friends over. i have other music that i will choose that are my go-to cuts for judging various performance issues. i save Abbey Road, side 2, for my personal musical enjoyment. it's possible some of the other diagnosis cuts get played more because when i'm investigating things i have a maybe a hundred Lp and digital cuts i play regularly for that. i like those cuts too, and from time to time they get rotated out of that list.

another very frequently played recording is the Beethoven 6th by Bruno Walter. i mostly play the SACD of it. but i have the Original Columbia Lp Pressing, and a 15ips, 1/4" master dub of it too. i love the music and the performance.

as far as what song or album that surprised me, wow! another tough question.

a couple of years ago a friend played me a cut off the Fleetwood Mac 1980 'Live' album, 'Never Going Back Again', by Lindsey Buckingham in his system. i was pretty blown away. what a great recording and very special performance and intimate approach to this iconic song.

then i looked in my big overflow section upstairs of my 12,000 Lp collection and there the Lp sat waiting for me to play it. since then i've played it regularly myself and for visitors, and mostly the reaction is like the one i had when i first heard it. who knew this gem was waiting to be revealed??

there are so many examples of stuff like that, this is just one that comes to mind.

you have made me think about the music, always a very good thing, thank you for that. i hope my answer was something like what you were wanting.

best regards,

mikelavigne July 20, 2013 19:56

Hi Mike, I've been following your system and it's amazing evolution since 04-05 maybe, when you had just gotten the VR9s, and it's just amazing and I love that you still continue to develop your love of music. What I wouldn't give to be able to bring my music collection and have a listen. Questions I have for you is what one song or album gets the most play on your system? Also, what's a surprising song or album that you've played? Cheers!

ericeash July 17, 2013 15:46

Mike, Thanks for your response. I was not aware that the Audio Desk "can leave a bit of small grit." That may explain what I'm hearing and why I have always thought a final rinse with a point-nozzle machine with ultra pure water would be a good idea with the Audio Desk.

I would not say I'm "particularly sensitive to tic and pops" but it is nice to know that the Lori is better for that than the Audio Desk. I just find ticks and pops distract somewhat from the performance and remind me that I'm listening to a recording. That is, tics and pops sometimes snap me back to reality when I'm lost in the music, and that is a shame. That's all. It's the one area that I find digital is superior to analog, but it is certainly not enough to get me to consider adding a digital player to my system. I love LPs with all of their problems and expenses.

peterayer July 15, 2013 23:33

Hi Mike, I've frequented Ken's website over the years to. Right now I have a Nikon D300s and a 16-85dx lens and a Tokina DX 11-16mm lens. The Tokina is pretty nice...it's what I took my whole room pic with on my system page.

I might have to try the 50mm lens...I've been also wondering about upgrading to the D600 and the FX format...Thanks for the info

jfrech July 15, 2013 11:26

Mike, Are you saying that if an LP is really noisy, you first try the Audio Desk and then if that does not work, you rely on the Loricraft to get the job done? I thought users were reporting that the Audio Desk does a superior job on dirty LPs.

I've used my Loricraft maybe once a month over the last 6 months. that is because I always use the Audio Desk and only one out of 40+ Lps I want to see whether the 4 step chemical process with the Loricraft might make a difference. I cannot remember when the Loricraft cleaning took things further.

I think the Audio Desk cleans deeper than the Loricraft generally. it's not that it gets noise that the Loricraft does not get, it's more that the Audio Desk seems to uncover a more vivid presentation, it removes a slight layer of greyness.

I recently took an LP that was cleaned with my PRC 4 to a friend's house. We listened and then cleaned it with his Audio Desk. It sounded just as clean, but we heard some faint crackling sounds during the quiet passages after the Audio Desk cleaning and not with the Loricraft. I now want to reclean with my Loricraft to see if I can hear a difference.

i'm not surprised. the water in the Audio Desk is only filtered, so it can leave a bit of small grit. but like I said above, it's how deep into the music that you can hear that matters most to me. I can live with a tic or pop or two if the music is there in all it's glory.

I recall from our previous discussions that you are particularly sensitive to tics and pops. the Loricraft potentially is better for that to some degree than the Audio Desk. the Audio Desk is still good at removing and dirt, but just not perfect at it.

mikelavigne July 15, 2013 05:53

Mike, Are you saying that if an LP is really noisy, you first try the Audio Desk and then if that does not work, you rely on the Loricraft to get the job done? I thought users were reporting that the Audio Desk does a superior job on dirty LPs.

I recently took an LP that was cleaned with my PRC 4 to a friend's house. We listened and then cleaned it with his Audio Desk. It sounded just as clean, but we heard some faint crackling sounds during the quiet passages after the Audio Desk cleaning and not with the Loricraft. I now want to reclean with my Loricraft to see if I can hear a difference.

peterayer July 15, 2013 01:28

one more thing on the Camera.

I use the default settings for the D600 from Ken Rockwell for my D600 and that has also seemed to help a lot as I was clueless as to how to set up the D600.

I used his links to purchase my camera and contributed to his website too to compensate him.

mikelavigne July 14, 2013 23:23

hi John,

yes, I did get a new camera about 6 months ago.....the Nikon D600. but my improved picture taking really came from when I got the Nikon AF-S f/1.4 50mm lens 4 months ago which makes the camera much better for most shots I take. I had been using an expensive Nikon f/2.8 24-70 which I could never get to look quite right. the pics today were hand held since I was in a hurry to throw some pics up. I used the flash in daylight. the last pic likely needed a tripod and not the flash.

as far as combining the different RCM's it might be interesting. for really dirty and challenging Lp's the Loricraft with it's multi-stage chemical approach likely can solve the truely problem pressings. then finish with the KL.

and that is how I use the Loricraft now, as the fall back approach for noisy pressings after I've already tried the Audio Desk.

so we will see how this goes as I switch back and forth.

mikelavigne July 14, 2013 23:02

This machine seems much more promising than the Audio Desk if only because of the brushes and squeegee that don't seem to work that well or completely dry the LP, at least in my experience. I love my PRC 4 Delux, but it is very time consuming. I like the idea of cleaning with an ultrasonic machine and then a final pure water rinse on the Loricraft, but alas, I can't afford two expensive RCMs.

Mike, please keep us informed of your longer time use with this machine.

peterayer July 14, 2013 22:46

Wow i have never heard about this RCM. Plus your pics are just killer...didn't you get a new camera recently? Tripod or hand held? I kinda wonder if the KL and the ultrasonic + a final clean by your Loricraft might be a match made in vinyl heaven?

Thinking the ultrasonic get's everything possible dislodged from the grooves and the Loricraft (or something like my Monks) sucks everything else up...

Also have to wonder if some cleaning agent (AVS, MoFi, Monks Fluid, etc etc) in the ultrasonic...then the Loricraft for a pure rinse...

Just thoughts...I bet you may already be thinking of these options (and frowning on the time to experiment!)

jfrech July 14, 2013 21:35

a new guy in town.

I am trying out a new RCM. the KL Audio Ultrasonic Record Cleaner.

it's a one-button machine like the Audio Desk. actually, it's a 'no' button machine. you place the Lp in the slot and it automatically cleans and dries it. you can walk away and come back later. it 'beeps' when it's done. you can vary the minutes of cleaning and drying. it uses about 1/2 gallon of distilled water per 50-100 Lps depending. I used a funnel to pour in the water, there is a window on the front that shows 'min' and max' for water level as you fill it. very easy to use and intuitive for dummies like me.

it only uses distilled water and ultrasonic cleaning, there is no cleaning fluid of any kind and no brushes. nothing touches the Lp but water and the ultrasonic bubble action.

it uses a 200 watt ultrasonic unit, my understanding is that the Audio Desk uses approximately a 10 watt ultrasonic unit. so the KL Audio has 20x the ultrasonic cleaning action of the Audio Desk.

how well does it work? so far, I've only cleaned a couple of Lps; but they came out 100% dry and clean and sound wonderful. maybe a touch more pristine sounding than the Audio Desk, but it's too soon to draw any conclusions. there are fewer moving parts than the Audio Desk since there are no brushes to spin, but it does still spin the Lp. it's built really well, and my understanding is that it's stainless steel inside for durability.

it's relatively quiet but it does emit a raspy sort of noise (like 'pink' noise) during the ultrasonic cycle.....so you might not want it in the same room as you are listening in. in my situation it's with the other RCM's right outside my room, and I don't hear it in my room with the door closed and the music playing, but I did hear the 'beep' when it was done.

works for me!

i'm into easy. this is easy.

here it is next to the current best RCM's on the market....the Audio Desk and the Loricraft PRC4 Delux. we will see how it does.

KL Audio RCM with Audio Desk and Loricraft PRC4 Dlx

KL Audio RCM

closeup of control panel

mikelavigne July 14, 2013 19:21

Idos,

your point is well taken, it's always possible for different pieces of gear to have negative performance affects on each other and then as you move them that changes. in this case i've used the dart pre and the Playback Designs together for almost 7 years now. at various times i've removed one or the other and never seen any effect from that. so that fact is where we start when considering your perspective.

prior to moving the gear to being stacked on top of the Herzan, the Playback Designs was on the bottom shelf, with the dart pre on the shelf above. this shelf that was between the two units, was a very heavy thick granite-wood sandwich which likely prevented much interaction. and the distance between the two units was greater then. now they are just separated by only the A10 U8 footers....there is now no shelf between them.

there was zero percieved noise before, and there is now zero percieved noise.

my expereince with noise between pieces of gear is mostly when i've had phono stages and power supplies for phono stages. the incoming cartridge signal is so low, and the amplification within the phono is so high, that picking up hum and noise is much more likely when you are messing with multiple phono sections.

anyway; while i agree with you that you have to open to all kinds of reasons for changes, in this case i am pretty confident that changes in the proximity of the gear is not part of it.

thank you for bringing up an important thing to consider when moving stuff around.

mikelavigne July 03, 2013 18:37

Mike,
Is it possible that the effects you are hearing might have something to do with getting your digital device further from the sensitive electronics of your pre-amp?

idos July 03, 2013 12:38