"New prototype" arm from Durand? Is this a scoop? I guess even Ferrari keeps building better and better cars.

peterayer June 18, 2013 22:40

Mike,

as usual great to keep up with your journey... from the last visit, you weren't kidding with the improvements..

what i like about the changes after adding the active isolation is the background is really much quieter and you hear a LOT more information into the music, the extra nuances... wow..

the changes to the *new prototype* arm is also interesting....it lets the music through much better than the last time although the active isolation may have helped it along...who know's unless you do an A/B wink wink...

well have fun with the music and nice to see you enjoy just playing music...keep it playing... I'll be back..

For Pradeep....you need the new tone arm... :)

teck5 June 18, 2013 08:06

hi Steve,

thanks.

i read thru your well written explanation about the Minus-K platform. very interesting....and not surprising. thanks for the info.

there are lots of changes in my system since your last visit and i think it's time for you to visit again....let me know when it can work for you.

best regards,

mikelavigne June 17, 2013 19:08

Hi Mike.
Congrats on your choice for the addition of a sub-hertz isolation system under the NVS. An important part of the puzzle.

On a much more limited budget, I've been experiencing a similar improvement while using Minus-K platform under my TD124. Improvements noticed were on the order of improved definition of inner details, improved definition of macro detail, improved imaging (substantial improvements to imaging) and an overall sense of sharper definition against a more silent backdrop. Perhaps, in some ways subtle, yet profound.

Anyway I wrote about it here:
" http://www.theanalogdept.com/minus_k.htm "

I see you've made substantial changes on many levels since my last visit in 2010. Indeed, it looks like a dream system you have assembled and created.

Happy spins.

-Steve

td160 June 16, 2013 19:56

Please, no, LOL! Divorce, split the assets-who knows, but the Bose Wave: NO, I SAY!
Just an interesting thought experiment.
You've got me seriously thinking about a Herzan for my tt. It's direct rim drive, with an air bearing linear tracking arm, and has really benefitted from being on a Symposium Isis stand with ball bearing/magnetic isolation. It's footprint is quite a bit smaller than your NVS, and the TS-150 would fit the bill, should be a bit more affordable than the 140.
The tt is a real giant killer, but I'm intrigued by this uber solution for isolation. Unfortunately outside the US, no sale-or-return is possible, so I'm going to hold my fire for the time being.
Interestingly, the Halcyonics Micro 40 and i4 appear to be nearly twice the price of the Herzan, which is enough as it is.
So it looks like a choice of sticking with the Isis, upgrade to the c$4000 Minus K BM-40, or a big leap to the TS-150.
Btw, just stumped the cash for the Soundsmith Straingauge cart. In love all over again with vinyl, it's my keeper for life.

spiritofmusic June 13, 2013 10:47

Marc,

sure, I have thought about that.....for about 10 seconds.

but then I would likely get a divorce, have to split the assets, and end up with a Bose Wave Radio.

;-)

mikelavigne June 13, 2013 05:33

Mike, what do you think about placing Herzan TS-300's under your spkrs? It would be hellishly expensive with 4 needed, but relative to $200k, maybe not out of proportion. Size and weight tolerance on the TS-300 would work for all 4 towers.
Surely loudspeakers producing vibration as normal function would theoretically benefit most from isolation.

spiritofmusic June 13, 2013 04:08

Peter;

added note to my answer above. i do think that RTR decks can benefit from isolation; i've heard RTR decks on Wave Kinetics A10-U8's and there was a benefit. but it's not going to be to the extent that a turntable can benefit.

i do think the smaller form factor RTR decks will get more relative benefit that the larger master recorders.

mikelavigne June 13, 2013 02:10

Peter,

i do expect at some point to have at least one more Herzan unit in my system, likely one without the automatic leveling since only a tt or transport really needs that.

i'd likely get one with a smaller footprint that would fit on my smaller lower shelves and then try it in a number of places.

as far as my RTR's; i doubt it. my Studer A-820's do not have bottoms that lend themselves to tables or even the floor. and the way tape heads interact with the tape the degree of benefit of isolation is much less. this is one of those areas where i've come to understand why tape sounds different that vinyl. it's because of the feedback affecting the vinyl to a huge degree and not the tape. of course, the bass on tape will be more linear, and you won't get the distortion on the tape so things are more solid, and images on tape are separated better. all issues that the Herzan resolves for the vinyl.

the Herzan is a truth machine and teaches me new things daily. you eliminate a source of distortion and can actually see what is causing what.

mikelavigne June 13, 2013 02:04

hi Mike,

i think you would like what the Herzan does in your system under one of your turntables.

i look forward to a (i hope soon) visit from you as always.

best regards,

mikelavigne June 13, 2013 01:54

Marc,

as far as age of a tt design and how that matters, mostly i am referring to how the Rockport tonearm compares to current tonearms. in 1995 the Rockport linear tracker was far superior to the alternatives.....in my personal opinion. today, it is only very very good.

clearly the Rockport air suspension was state of the art for electron microscopes in the mid-90's, now it's not.

i do agree that the plinth/platter/motor was ahead of it's time; but now there are a number of competitive one's.

cars (race or street) are now asked to do much more technically, it's no longer good enough for a race car to be fast; one must do it a certain way as a race car, and street cars are now much safer and cleaner. so cars now are simply more advanced.

i did not do much direct comparisons with the Herzan. hopefully as time goes by those direct comparisons with other approaches will happen. Herzan provides lots of science on their web site that does address comparative approaches.

i tired the Halcyonics active isolation in 2005 on my Grand Prix Audio Monaco decoupling stand and it worked spactacularly. so yes; it will work with an isolation stand. it simply will work better with a solid stand.

a wall mounted stand would work great for the Herzan if it is stout enough for it's 70 pounds plus the weight of a turntable.

mikelavigne June 13, 2013 01:50

Mike, Have you considered getting two more Herzan units for your amps or even your R2Rs?

peterayer June 13, 2013 00:00

Congrats on the Herzan, looks very interesting and it is one that I have not heard of before. Thanks for bringing this product to my attention.
Thanks for your kind words on my system page.
Long overdue for a visit to the Barn.
Take care,

rugyboogie June 11, 2013 14:57

Mike, an excellent analysis of the differences. Although I'm not sure that the age of items is necessarily that relevant. For instance, in the area of supercars even though material science has improved power to weight ratio, the inclusion of traction controls etc has taken the 'excitement' factor out of driving; many driving and even Formula One afficionados prefer the cars of the mid-90's to the current day.
So, the Rockport could still be totally competitive with your NVS despite the 15 yr age gap. But I understand you feeling the NVS has taken a march.
What other platforms did you investigate? Vibraplane, Minus-K etc? The Minus-K esp. seems to perform in a very similar way to the Herzan. Not sure what those '6 axes of movement' are.
Do you feel the Herzan could work on a stand already incorporating it's own isolation: I use the Symposium Isis which uses constrained layer shelves with ball bearing/magnetic isolation per tier.
Or woul I be better off placing the Herzan on a static tt wall shelf, it providing the only isolation method?

spiritofmusic June 10, 2013 09:14

Bill,

yes, i've decided i'm going to stick with this 'stereo' stuff, it's fun.

;-)

best regards,

mikelavigne June 10, 2013 06:40

Mike- I'm glad you are finally getting serious about your stereo system. :)
Love it!
Best,
Bill Hart

whart June 10, 2013 06:16

excellent Mike!...I personally do think that it was worth the effort...unfortunately my isolation stuff did not work to improve....but then again mine was not active or 12k either....but all mechanical and awkward..

good for you now if i can come up with 12k to play with one of these i may give it a shot ...

Lawrence
Fidelity_Forward

lharasim June 10, 2013 03:28

I'm intrigued as to where the combination of NVS/Telos/Herzan stands in comparison with your previous reference Rockport. It seems that with the addition of the Herzan you have substituted the final component of the Rockport combination that you had previously, ie full isolation.
I do realise this q is a little unfair since it's, what, a couple of years since you replaced the Rockport, but I'm sure you've got a pretty good memory of it's sonic 'fingerprint'.
It seems that the NVS/shelf ($45000), Telos w.sapphire plate ($20000) and Herzan ($12000), is taking the combination into at least the ball park of Rockport prices.

hi Marc,

first of all, when i moved on from the Rockport to the NVS i had only heard a prototype NVS, i overall slightly preferred the NVS and the Durand Tonearms. it did things the Rockport seemed not able to do. yet the Rockport also had it's attractions. we did a comparison of simply the noise floor between cuts and the NVS was slightly quieter than the Rockport....and did a little more space. yet the Rockport was and is a magnificent tt, and i wish i could have kept it. it excels at everything. but it was designed in the early 90's.

now that was almost 3 years ago. the NVS is better than it's prototype, and the Durand Tonearm is now the Telos, even the Telos with the Sapphire cartridge plate. i now use the Durand record weight, and of course, here is the Herzan active isolation.

there is no doubt that the Herzan active isolation exceeds the passive air suspension of the Rockport. i think i prefer the Durand Record Weight to the vacuum hold-down on the Rockport. the linear tracking arm was where i felt the Rockport was the least outstanding, and the Telos/Sapphire is on a whole different level, and i would say the motor/drive difference would be hard to call. they are most similar there. overall it would not be very close in my opinion.

i do not have a Rockport here for direct comparison, but i do have my Studer RTR tape which has not changed and honestly......my current set-up is clearly better than where the Rockport was. the Rockport design is now almost 20 years old, so that is no knock on the Rockport.

and i feel with the addition of the Herzan, my current tt/arm/weight/shelf is as good as it gets, maybe better. that's simply my perspective.

mikelavigne June 10, 2013 03:28

over the last 3 hours i had 2 local audiophile friends over and we did an A-B-A with the TS-140 and the NVS isolation platform.

with three of us it only took about 15 minutes to switch them in and out. we used 8-9 different cuts. we played them all first the TS-140 under the NVS, then on the NVS isolation platform under the NVS, and then back with the TS-140.

i cannot say whether my friends will chime in or not. and it's up to them to express their perspectives.

what i will say is the discussion after centered on 2 main topics; why doesn't every turntable come with one of these?, and what they might have to do to get one.

as far as my perceptions; they are consistent with my earlier claims.....but maybe even more intensely expressed after hearing before and after really brings it home.

we're not in Kansas anymore Toto.

mikelavigne June 09, 2013 23:27

I'm intrigued as to where the combination of NVS/Telos/Herzan stands in comparison with your previous reference Rockport. It seems that with the addition of the Herzan you have substituted the final component of the Rockport combination that you had previously, ie full isolation.
I do realise this q is a little unfair since it's, what, a couple of years since you replaced the Rockport, but I'm sure you've got a pretty good memory of it's sonic 'fingerprint'.
It seems that the NVS/shelf ($45000), Telos w.sapphire plate ($20000) and Herzan ($12000), is taking the combination into at least the ball park of Rockport prices.

spiritofmusic June 09, 2013 21:11

Metralla,

I agree that the TS-140 fits the visual look and size of the NVS. sometimes technical advances looked kludged, i'm happy that is not the case this time.

I love the look. elegance is always preferred when it also performs.

and this is one big reason I did not go with the Halcyonics version of active isolation. it has a taller box and looks a bit awkward to me.

mikelavigne June 09, 2013 19:26

Lawrence,

when I installed the Herzan on Friday night I was by myself. the Herzan itself is about 70 pounds and my shelf height is about 37 inches, it's easy to get a grip on so no problem logistically. however; the NVS turntable with the larger halo, 2 large heavy stainless armboards, and -2- 7 pound Telos bases, likely weighs 120-130 pounds+.....and it's hard to get a grip on.....I kinda had to hug it to pick it up and then setting it down on a small table without throwing my back out was a challenge.

i'm not doing that again by myself. :)

so doing an ABA will wait until I have some help for sure. personally I have no need for an ABA, but some of my friends want to do it.

mikelavigne June 09, 2013 19:03

The Herzan TS-140 is such a perfect fit for the NVS in both width and length. Looks made to measure and very impressive.

The short video on their web site was illuminating.

Regards,

metralla June 09, 2013 17:14

yup thats a real isolation device you go there mike!...not many good ones..this does all 6 axes :)

I purchased several years ago a mechanical isolation device a real one no BS audiophile crap..it isolated in all 6 axes too with similar specifications...personally i did not like it..for various reasons but one thing i remember stuck out in my mind it made music sound more together but softer more resolution but not more real ...anyways enjoy your new toy

if you would after awhile go back to original ABA if you will... and give us your opinion

Lawrence
Fidelity_Forward

lharasim June 09, 2013 17:11

James,

glad you are enjoying the new mat. I assume you use both the top carbon fiber and the foam underneath.

the NVS clamp does require the washer to be most effective.

here is how I ranked the use of the clamp and mat.

1-mat only was best
2-clamp with washer was next.
3-naked, no clamp without washer.
4-clamp without washer.

take some time, maybe get another listener to help, and find a few tracks and do the investigation yourself. and do ask Jonathan to send you the washer.

best regards,

mikelavigne June 09, 2013 16:33