Mike,
It's been some years ago, but I did have the pleasure to see/hear your system. I went with a bunch from Portland. I see that your system has changed and it would be a great experience to do it again sometime.
As to the sound diffusors you built recently (with excellent results), might you have photos, or detailed instructions to share?
I've often felt the need to explore this inexpensive tweak.

Thanks and happy listening,
Oregon

oregon May 17, 2015 21:28

Hi Mike,
No need to apologize. I didn't realize that the piece is question was such old news; and it just caught my eye. I understand what you were saying completely.
It was really interesting to read about the difference the cloth hangings made to the sound of your system, and really got me thinking as well.
Carry on!
Thanks, John

roxy54 April 29, 2015 12:06

John,

I apologize for my bad manners. it's early and I guess I was not in the proper frame of mind to respond respectfully to your reasonable and helpful post.

if you read about my recent changes a few posts above I was not expecting to be responding to the cartridge plate issue.

anyway, thank you again for the kind words and sorry for my nasty tone.

best regards,

mikelavigne April 29, 2015 09:41

hello John,

sigh.

double sigh.

only on Audiogon would someone ask me that question. :)

at the time I added the cartridge plate (4 years ago) the design of the Durand Telos tonearm was in the discovery phase and that plate was an experiment which turned out not to be a long term feature going forward. my room was involved in the testing of the performance in that tonearm on a regular basis and so this sapphire plate was something I heard the sonic effect of and wanted for my own Telos tonearm. so I did get one for myself and asked the manufacturer what the list price for it should be if he sold them. I'm not saying that the hunk of synthetic corundum is worth much. but the cost of machining that particular shape and the degree of waste and rejected parts was such that the cost at that particular time projected to a $4750 retail price. I'm not sure he ever sold any, what anyone else paid, or any of those details. I'm sure if you have 100 watch crystals made of the stuff it costs one price; but if you have 2 or 5 of these cartridge plates made the cost is another value. the design of the Telos Sapphire has moved on from that part. I've replaced that cartridge plate with a one-piece composite armwand and moved that cartridge plate (which does add performance) to my stock regular Telos which still has the wood armwand where I have my mono cartridge.

surprise, surprise, I did not pay $4750 for that cartridge plate.

sorry if my response is less than upbeat. but this is old news. serves me right for not updating my system page and I suppose I should just remove the reference to it altogether. I'm sure you meant no harm and are only trying to be helpful to save me from myself and I take no offense.

and thanks for the positive comments too.

mikelavigne April 29, 2015 09:22

Mike,
I don't believe that I have posted on your virtual system before, but let me start by saying the obvious; it is one of the most thoroughly realized and as well as beautiful rooms and systems on all of Audiogon. It would be a thrill for me to hear it. I have learned many things from you, and you, like some other members are always kind and gracious in your comments and advice.
In that same spirit, I would like to comment on something I noticed today in the listing of all of the components and accessories in your virtual system. What caught my eye was the Durand sapphire cartridge plate.
I have been a jeweler for 37 years, and from what I can see, it consists of a carefully shaped and polished piece of synthetic corundum. (sapphire) This is the very same material which good watch crystals are made of. You list the price paid as $4,750, and I want to tell you, just in case you want to purchase more for use on other arms/turntables that you could have others made to the same specification by an experienced lapidary for a tiny fraction of that price, meaning a few hundred dollars.
I don't know enough to be able to contribute useful information about most things on these forums, but this is one thing that I do know something about, and I felt a need to tell you. The fact is, you could even choose a color if you liked. It's all the same material, with a little bit of metal oxide producing the different colors.
Obviously, you are able to afford what you like, but why spend money that you don't have to spend?
Great System!
All the Best, John

roxy54 April 29, 2015 02:50

This made very interesting reading.

My room is not as sophisticated as yours mike - however after moving recently I have managed to create a dedicated room in my house. I was very pleased with the overall sound with some major structural alterations and some acoustic treatment.

But, as we do, could it be better? - after reading various internet info (in particular http://realtraps.com was very useful) I have built some large bass traps for the walls beside the speakers. This immediately improved the already good imaging and bass definition.

Similar to yourself I went on to build two ceiling traps to reduce reflections and placed rugs in front of the speakers. This has made further improvements to imaging and detail.

Reducing reflections, especially primary ones, seems to be a relatively simple means to making significant improvements to the quality of the sound one hears. I know much has been written over the years about the most influential component in the system is the room, my recent experience has borne this out.

The combined effect of this DIY work has made a huge improvement - it has not over dampened or deadened the room - clarity, detail and sense of space have been the winners.

dctom April 28, 2015 09:46

Thank you for sharing Mike. I have been following your thread for years and appreciate that you graciously share your experience.
I found that everything matters, and the better the system components the more tweaking that is required to unlock the full potential.
The thing that does drive me crazy is that there is no definitive manual that one can follow, and no substitute for rolling up one's sleeves to experiment.

mark_nz April 28, 2015 03:44

almost free and 4 inches......the final 1%

.....or maybe the final 2%, or the final 5%......no matter.....the final step.

I built a full blown dedicated room now 11 years ago. I've made a number of changes to the original design over these many years, always getting closer to the ideal I've chased. I added a front set of RPG Skyline diffusers 7 years ago. I removed huge front corner bass traps and reinforced the room boundaries 5 years ago. I added side and ceiling diffusers then too. I closed up 2/3rdsof the ceiling bass traps 4 years ago. I figured I was done with the room.

I added the Equi=tech isolation transformer wall panel, and upgraded my duplex outlets 4 years ago. power grid all ok.

I've upgraded my speakers and amplifiers 2 years ago to my view of the ultimate......still waiting for that ultimate preamp.....maybe another 30 days. I'm completely satisfied that my sources are all top notch, or at least my view of what that might be.

I've got all the software I could want in all the formats I have an interest in.

but I was still not 100% satisfied with the performance. the system was 100% satisfying to listen to and I was not frustrated or anything like that. but I felt that there was more I should be hearing. I had visited a couple of rooms which had more apparent detail and imaging, and while I preferred my overall musical equation, those experiences convinced me that there was more to find from my system.

for a few years I had been looking at the first reflection areas in my room and wondered if those were a problem. my previous opinion had been that since my room was quite large and the reflection times were so long that logically those areas should not be a problem. and I was always afraid of adding diffusion or absorption and messing up the tonal balance or losing energy. a few friends recently had done full room treatments with some current rave treatments and torn them out when they realized they had lost the musical flow and tonal fire. and yet.....what if? 3 years ago I had thought of adding some RPG wood surface diffusion to these areas and priced it out; it came to $17k for what I wanted. and I was again concerned that I would throw off the tonal balance. my mind went back and forth.

I knew what happened when I tried some Navajo carpets on the walls; it sucked out the mid range. so I could not do much. the room was too sensitive to do that.

I considered I did not want to dampen the room at all or change the tonality. I just wanted to knock down the first reflections. what if I just put some cloth over the first refection points?

so one Saturday afternoon a little over month ago I decided to dive in. I went upstairs and found some left over material from my original fabric covers of my bass traps from the room construction. I measured and found I had enough to treat the drop ceiling between the speakers and listening position, and the side rounded diffuser on either side of the Skyline diffusers between my speakers. I had to go to the hardware store to buy some push pins, grabbed my wife's fabric scissors, and I dragged out the ladder. 3 hours later I had cloth covering the drop ceiling (22" x 60" on each side) and the sides of the diffusers (36" x 89" on each side).

have you ever tried to pin fabric to a 10' tall hardwood ceiling? i used a combination of double-backed Velcro and push pins. my neck still hurts.

but i got it done. and listened.

a whole different system resulted. I could not believe it......or rather I believed it but could not believe it took me so long to figure it out. lots more detail.....more relaxed presentation and more full bodied placement of images in the soundstage.....much improved vocals.....pianos and violins were magical. and oh the tone!

this performance had always been there; but it had been covered up by the reflected hash from the first reflections. and prior to this treatment; when I raised the volume there would be an increase in the hash and it caused the system to sound hard and edgy. and especially the sweet spot was effected by this as it was closest to that area of drop ceiling I treated. and as always; you don't recognize distortion until it's removed. and part of the trick is not losing good content along with ridding yourself of distortion.

so I went thru a few days of listening to all my reference cuts and was living large. then I started to think if those areas resulted is such a dramatic change, why not other first reflection areas? my bass towers prevent first reflection of the near wall from the main towers; however, the opposite main tower can interact with the opposite wall. so I went to a fabric store and found some velour fabric with some texture and cut out some 72" pieces to treat three flat surfaces on each side wall. boom; better vocals and more solid images.

ok, if this worked what else? I looked and saw the round 10 foot long surface above and below the front diffuser. right at the floor and right at the ceiling. could first reflections bounce off the ceiling or floor and do harm? only one way to find out. I had some black thin foam fabric I'd bought at the fabric store. I quickly cut out only a 6' long piece for the upper and lower rounded areas and pinned them up. and listened. better; vocals better. everything a little more focused.

I've always listened to music with the pleated window coverings up. many times i had closed them and listened but could never hear a difference. but that reflected hash had covered up other detail; what if now that i was hearing much more detail that those window coverings could make a difference? i lowered them and listened. better; more body and focus. not huge but a small step there to be enjoyed.

i imagine other small things will present themselves over time to be tweaked. but now it was so easy to hear the smallest change.

and all through this process I had paid very close attention to the tonality and energy levels. were there any trade-offs? in a word, hell no. in fact; every step came with greater dynamics and bass articulation. almost like the reflections had dampened things and I had released the music.

I had spent years and years doing all these things, pushing against this barrier of refection, and in a week of messing around spending less than $100 on some fabric remnants and push pins I had broke the code. a new system. wow.

my opinion is that I was right to not do too much. don't overthink it. you are simply trying to knock down the reflections and not to mess with the overall balance.

but I was not completely done. for a few weeks I had been in musical bliss. the Tres Amigos visited and heard what I had done. I'd not made a big deal about it. but it was a very big deal. then this past weekend I had other visitors who were very familiar with my system. they were blown away by how it now performed. but they thought it could be even better......something still missing. but why? eventually they asked a question? was I sitting at the equilateral triangle point? I said sure. then we measured. I was 4 inches back too far. we moved the listening position 4 inches forward and there it was.

the last little bit. vocals crazy good. super holographic imaging. (insert over the top phrase here). i have only listened to redbook since i did this step, and i am in hog heaven. the music is just so profound. after the previous steps of the last month this last step is almost too much.

this was yesterday morning.

20 years of chasing my musical ideal and I'm now listening to it.

I have been thinking about whether to post this since it will result in all sorts of reactions. do i need to get into all this stuff, how do i know i did the right thing? why didn't i use this product or that product? how does it measure before and after? blah, blah, blah.

if someone mentions DSP I'm going to puke......well not really.....but you get the idea. they first need to come and hear what I've done, then show me a system with DSP that can match this.....and i will consider it.

maybe someone will be helped by my experience?

so for almost free and 4 inches I've got to my personal musical reproduction mountaintop. (and my new dart preamp is still a few weeks away)

YMMV, only my 2 cents, and all that stuff.

mikelavigne April 27, 2015 23:46

Jeff,

they are the Shunyata Dark Field V2 Cable Elevators

mikelavigne April 21, 2015 09:30

Mike, what are the cable stances that you use that hold the cables in the air. Thanks Jeff

jwm April 21, 2015 09:00

I have not updated my system page or pictures recently, so here are some comments from recent visitors (oneobgyn and mobiusman audiogon monikers) to my room and some current pictures which may be of interest.

the whole thread about the visit

oneobgyn's comments and pics of my room

Mobiusman's comments and pics on my room

mikelavigne April 21, 2015 08:38

Sarastro; French classical Lp label, 45rpm, superb sonics.

a couple of months ago I got turned on to the late 70's French classical label "Sarastro".

Sarastro was a character in Mozart's 'The Magic Flute". every Sarastro pressing is classical, mostly solo or small combo, and all are 45rpm. they are all quite wonderful sounding and lovingly and minimally recorded. I'd call the tonal balance of these pressings natural and even slightly 'sweet'; certainly not in-your-face at all. they are easy to listen to in my system. and the 45rpm helps to propel the musical flow and energy.

obviously the comments on the sonics pertain only to how they sound in my particular system. I've not heard them in any other system or tt.

as far as I can tell there are apparently 41 listed pressings, and I personally have acquired 23 of them. but curiously it seems only the first 29 in the series actually exist. and from what I understand; only approximately 300 pressings were done of each title.

on pressing number 7929 (done in 1979 and 29th in the series), there is a list of 41 pressings by composer, but I've not found any evidence that any actual records exist of anything beyond pressing number 7929. if they exist they must be in very small numbers. I've not found any other detailed information anywhere. likely were I able to read French that there is information out there in more detail. and FYI, all the album jackets are written in French.

I've not been able to acquire Numbers; 7815, 7817, 7819, 7820, 7821, and 7824 (I have all the rest from 7701-7929.....7708/7709 is a double album). however; I have seen pictures and sales history of all those so I know that they exist. I've checked world-wide ebay for 30 days straight and not seen any of those catalog numbers at all. I was going to wait to post about this until I found those 6 titles, but I'm giving up and moving on and am done with my acquisition phase with Sarastro. so I figured I would share my discovery so others can enjoy it.

these are not crazy expensive to buy on ebay at this point; anywhere from $29 to $89.....and I've seen them as high as $119. the biggest issue is they are almost all in Europe, so shipping gets quite spendy. every pressing I've bought would be considered 'mint' or 'mint-' to my ears. one was a bit noisy (cannot recall the catalog number).....but mostly they are dead quiet, and consistently good sounding. I'm no classical expert to judge the playing, but I've liked all of the 23 I have.

if you enjoy great sounding classical; I'd recommend trying a couple and see what you think.

I debated with myself whether to post about this; but I know some people really love to hear about the best sounding pressings, and these are in that category to my ears.

happy hunting!

mikelavigne January 28, 2015 02:06

GREAT RECORDING LIST Mike,...thank you again, I don't have the last two but am familiar with the rest,....gotta love Gary Karr's and Ray Brown's work, definitely agree on those and others by the same guys. Thank you...

zephyr24069 January 21, 2015 05:23

I almost forgot....another cello recording that I love when I'm in the right mood.

Yo-Yo Ma, Tavener, 'The Protecting Veil' CD Sony SK 62821.

an acquired taste but if you like it you will love it when the mood strikes you.

beautiful tone and atmosphere. dim lights, late night, a wee bit of single malt....musical bliss. enjoy.

I've heard this piece down live locally and really enjoyed it.

mikelavigne January 21, 2015 01:58

hi Mark,

sorry for the delay in response. thanks for the recs on the Venus Records files, I will check it out.

tonight I'm doing more piano; I have this wood box reissue set of Soviet Union recordings from Mercury Living Presence 35mm magnetic film from June of 1962. Byron Janis Piano on three of the 5 pressings. SR90300, SR90305 and SR90329. Mercurys are always very good; these are outstanding both sonics and performance. the piano is super dynamic and alive. plenty of body and weight to the sound, but open and energetic. really a perfect balance. a very exciting sound.

three cello recordings that are favorites and demo disc quality;

Gary Karr/Harmon Lewis; Adagio d'Albinoni, 45rpm Lp, Impex IMP3001-45. great tone and space. need lots of deep bass headroom to allow it to breathe.

Ray Brown & Laurindo Almeida, Moonlight Serenade, DTD Jeton 1003315. make sure it's the original direct-to-disc from 1981 and not the Clearaudio vinyl dub reissue. the iconic 1st track, a combo of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, and Monk's Round Midnight is a hair-raising cut when the system can capture the full tilt boogie of Ray Brown's double bass. on the MM7's/458's it's crazy good. and if (1) your system can get the deep bass but (2) your tt does not have good isolation, (3) the feedback from the dynamic double bass content will muddy up the musical flow. it's a real system tester. but when it all works it's sublime. the redbook version of this cut is also very good if you can find it. great music any way you hear it! but the vinyl is amazing.

Hungaroton LPX.11413 Stereo, Lp, Hus Desforges/Muntz-Berger, Cello/Double bass sonatas. I accidently came across this Lp 3-4 years ago when I purchased a collection. a fantastic recording, very honest and full bodied and alive. I listen to it often. Hungaroton recordings are minimalist and very vivid and open. worth going to the trouble to buy in Europe and pay the shipping. if you can combine it with other Hungaroton recordings you will likely be happy with them.

more later.....

mikelavigne January 21, 2015 01:50

Mike,...thanks! BVSC and the Krall discs are entries here to and I enjoy them very much. There is also some well mic'ed and play jazzed piano on any of the Venus Records 24/192->RBCD Hypermagnum recordings out of Japan of various current jazz combos that I enjoy very much. I also dig some of Jordan Rudess' piano work (4NYC, various other accompanied and unaccompanied piano work); the discs are a mix of above-average to very good mastering but the playing is of interest to me. He's a very well-versed talent to say the least.......

Have a great day, keep that heart-rate down, and HAVE FUN!

zephyr24069 January 19, 2015 10:37

ok, my heart rate is down a bit so back to audio.....

a few more Piano recs first;

a long time favorite is the Mozart Concerto's 21 and 24 by Istomin from Reference Recordings; I have the CD, RR-68CD, the HRx 176-24 disc downloaded on my server, and the 45rpm 2 disc pressing. a shame that they did not use the analog tapes for the 45rpm pressing although it is still better than the HRx for whatever reason.

then there is Ruben Gonzales playing the wonderful Salsa style piano on Ry Cooder's Buena Vista Social Club. I have the CD, the 45rpm box set, and somehow I also have a 1/4" 15ips master dub I'm enjoying right now. a sonic and artistic triumph for sure on each format, and an analog mastered recording to boot. it is prominent on many cuts but amazing on track 4, Pueblo Nuevo.

also the Diana Krall 'Live In Paris' has lots of really well recorded piano. the CD is outstanding. avoid the 33rpm pressing, the 45rpm pressing is spectacular. again; somehow I have a 1/4" 15ips of that one too.

mikelavigne January 19, 2015 00:00

Mark,

after that game it might take me some time to pull myself together again and think straight.

holy crap!

mikelavigne January 18, 2015 18:48

Mike,...you are very welcome! "Super Trio" has some dynamite "prepared piano" passages on it and several kickass drum-kit entries that are hard to top. It is a very unique recording and on your system I can only imagine the jaw-dropping results. Certainly worth making room on the shelf and server for "one more silver/gold disc" and then the import into the server!

The Nojima and Evans discs you mention are favorites here too; they give a system a great workout in multiple dimension and are damned fine music to boot! I don't have the others and will be sure to look them up. I like Nojima's other works as well beyond the Liszt as well as Guilda's piano work on all the Beethoven recordings that Esoteric remastered and released as an SACD box set last year.

That mislabelled tape you have sounds like someone was mic'ed a live or other recording from the booth and then it went into the archives. I know several people with recordings like this from various venues in NY, Chicago, etc...the little I've heard tell me there are treasures out there; it's been enough to keep me thinking of adding a R2R capability to the system and start buying tape but I've held off as like vinyl, it;'s pragmatic here in that there is only so much time, money and space available (and limited WAF beyond what I enjoy most days).

Enjoy the game....talk later!

zephyr24069 January 18, 2015 15:25

hi Mark,

thanks for the kind words. I do enjoy this wonderful hobby of ours to it's fullest.....and I appreciate the encouragement. one of the best parts is the community of listeners/audiophiles I interact with. and I'm happy you enjoy the 'Jan Fukamachi, At Steinway', it was a fun process and i was honored to be involved with and it was very educational for me. I'd love to that again with my current vinyl playback and system and see the progression since 2008.

Have you ever played Winston's "Super Trio" UDC on this system? There are a few tracks I'd love to hear out of this system of yours....

I have lots of Winston's discs, which are always excellent sounding. sad to say I don't have the 'Super Trio' UDC disc 'yet'. about three years ago I stopped buying 'silver discs' for the most part as I basically ran out of room for them and was transitioning to mostly listening to digital thru my server. right now I have 6+ terabytes of music 'growing daily' on my server and most of what is one there is dsd and 2xdsd. that is not to say that discs do not sound great, since they most certainly do. as good as hirez is, and particularly 2xdsd is, some CD's still fully hold their own in sound quality, particularly Winston's discs. i likely have at least 50 FIM discs and Winston is a dear friend. I will acquire the 'Super Trio' UDC and listen to it and post my comments.

what are you favorite piano and violin & cello if applicable recordings or at least your top3 or top5 for each? I've got a long list of piano, violin and string music but I'm curious which ones you return to for the ultimate playback experience.

there are so many, and it's hard to separate the sonic qualities and the performance. mostly it's the music that moves me, and i hope for the best as far as sonics. and understand that I'm no expert on music, i only know what i like and what makes me happy. all that said here is a list of what comes to mind at the moment.

Piano,

-my overall favorite piano recording is a 1/4" 15ips master dub of a live concert hall recording of the Beethoven Piano Concerto No.4 by Leonard Shure. i acquired it some years ago and I've tried to find details on the performance but cannot find anything on google about the performance or recording. the person I acquired it from labeled it as a 'Beethoven Sonata' so he did not know what he had either. it is a force of nature. just a majestic and involving recording and the piano just rocks. sorry to tease you with this, but you asked. if you ever visit we can enjoy it together.

coming back to the real world for piano recordings....

Ivan Moravec, Beethoven Piano Sonatas, VAIA CD, 1069. great sound and performance.

Nojima Plays Listz, Reference Recordings, I have the CD RR-25CD, the Lp, and the 15ips 1/4" tape from the Tape Project. really stresses a system to get it all. wonderful recording.

one piano recording I love is 'Peace Piece' from Bill Evans off the 'Everybody Digs Bill Evans' album. I have the OJCCD-068-2 (Riverside) CD and the AP 45rpm 2 disc Lp set. first; I love everything Bill Evans has done and so anything by him is good. this album is very good but this particular cut is simply wonderful in it's feeling. I love it.

I'm running out of time before my Seahawks game, I will come back to this and do my violin and Cello recs.

best regards,

mikelavigne January 18, 2015 14:33

hi Sam,

thanks......1/2" 15ips tape rules!

and the best to you too....

mikelavigne January 18, 2015 12:08

Mike....what are you favorite piano and violin & cello if applicable recordings or at least your top3 or top5 for each? As an aside, I regularly return to Winston's UDC/UDM Fukamachi done in your room and marvel at how great that disc and the system that produced it are...I've got a long list of piano, violin and string music but I'm curious which ones you
return to for the ultimate playback experience.

Have you ever played Winston's "Super Trio" UDC on this system? There are a few tracks I'd love to hear out of this system of yours....

I've looked at this system and love reading through your threads many times every month; between you and Albert Porter and a few others, you do an incredible thing for this hobby (obsession more like...) in how your systems inspire people and all the help and advice you give.

All I have to say is that if one believes in heaven (at least for an audiophile), it must look and sound like this room!!! Have a great weekend and enjoy the music!

zephyr24069 January 18, 2015 06:39

Hi Mike,

Enthusiastically agree with paragraph 3 from 1/9/15.

HNY!
Sam

c1ferrari January 17, 2015 17:54

hi Harv,

bring the Argerich Chopin scherzo op39 on down and we can let's rip on the big rig.

I have at least 20 Argerich Lps, and 10 of her CD's. she is wonderful.

thanks for all the kind comments.....

take care,

mikelavigne January 17, 2015 16:27

Oboyoboyoboy!!
Man, I can only imagine what that 1/2" stuff 'sounds' like (or rather, 'where' it 'transports' you to... A vector in space/time)
The Argerich Chopin scherzo op39 is likely my very favorite piano recording, I'd love to hear it on 'The' system.
Kudos again for 'getting there'
It's inspiring to see a man with the wits, passion, and means pursue the ne plus ultra in any endeavor.. I could rattle on for hours but alas,
I have a date with Ms Argerich

hxt1 January 14, 2015 12:45