"personally; i find it to be obvious that my concentration on the music is best when the room is dim my eyes are nearly shut. i'm no neurologist; but i assume that when your eyes are shut or when it's dark more of your brain's computing power goes to your ears"

Does anyone think the wall at the speaker end of a listening room (particularly when loudspeakers are near the wall) "closes" in the sound from a _visual/psychological_ perspective. Perhaps your mind prevents you from "seeing" beyond the wall and, accordingly, one of the reasons speakers often/usually "sound better" out in the room is a psychoacoustic response of your eye/brain that is now allowing instruments/musicians to "exist" behind the speakers. One therefore "hears" more depth/spaciousness, etc.

Closing your eyes takes the wall out of the equation in a similar fashion.

imdoc February 13, 2007 13:57

Hi Mike
I'm so glad to see that you have decided to continue posting. I am enthralled with your MM3 descriptions, as I am eagerly awaiting delivery of my pair. Last I heard they are currently at the finishers, and should be delivered in about 3 weeks. Thanks again for sharing your experiences
Carl

czapp February 12, 2007 22:25

Still the mosy amazing system/room on the planet!!!

DV

dewald_visser February 12, 2007 17:00

Thanks again mike. I am a total vinyl noob. I don't have the space now, but in the future I would love to get one. Fours years seems pretty good. I imagine you have played many records in that time. Do the records wear out? Do you find you need to replace certain one because of use? You might as well load up on your favorite if you can. I think it will be fun once I have space to put something together.

[email protected] February 12, 2007 14:45

Mike; i have 4 cartridges for the Rockport; the Koetsu RSP, the Dynavector XV-1s, the Colibri XGW 6.5 and my fav....the Colibri XCP 8.5.

the Rockport is very easy on cartridges; as it uses vaccuum holddown so the record is always perfectly flat.....and thus the stress is minimized. my Colibri is a very light cartridge and i track it at 1.42 grams.....so the forces on it are minimal while playing. the one issue is the lateral force put on the stylus when initially dropped into the groove; as the attachment point of the stylus to the cartridge is carrying the whole weight of the arm assembly. it is important to have the platter perfectly flat to insure there is minimal side force at the moment of stylus drop. fortunately, once level the Rockport stays level indefinitly.

it is hard to say how long a cartridge will last; my precious Colibri XCP is not yet sounding less wonderful after 4 years of primary duty. it likely has an ideal enviironment. OTOH i may soon buy another so i have a spare. on nice thing about vdH cartridges is that they can be cheaply re-furbished.

my one concern is that Arnie is not getting any younger.

mikelavigne February 12, 2007 14:29

Dev,

your outdoor space sounds very nice; the 'walls' might give you a bit of sound definition.

the MM3's are made of hundreds of layers of Baltic Birch plywood milled and stacked horizontally and glued together. there are integral internal braces.....the final piece is incredibly strong and non-resonate.

there is a clear laquer over the end grains which makes for a beautiful looking cabinet with a very deep lustre. the transition pieces i think are HDF. there is no venier anywhere.....what you see are all end grains.

i saw the unfinished raw cabinet when i was down in San Diego in August. when i visited Kevin i noticed some of his art on the walls of his home. it is no accident that the MM3 has a beautiful orgainic shape; in addition to Kevin's other talents he is an accomplished artist.

there are other speakers with high levels of construction.....but none better than the MM3 i am aware of.

the MM3's come with spikes. listening to the benefits of spiking the MM3; i likely prefer it.....although the VR9's used castors and they also sound great.

do the spikes help the MM3's attain 'never heard before' bass definition? i don't know.

my 'dream' floor interface for a speaker would be this;

Halcyonics Sandwich Platform

enjoy.

mikelavigne February 12, 2007 14:07

Thanks for the reply Mike. In talking with him I am convinced that it will be a solid piece. I probably at the least will get that. But I may try and go all out and get the amp. It will take longer for me to get that but I am wondering if it would be better. I just need to find time to go and check out the gear. Thanks again.

Also it is good to hear that you feel you are now getting the best out of your speakers. Interesting how the crossover made such a dramatic improvement. I guess you will need to stock up on cartridges for the Rockport. How long do they normally last. I know you have 3 different ones. Do they all wear the same or do some last longer then others.

[email protected] February 12, 2007 12:35

Mike regarding the DarTZeel my friend took the top of and did the changes, it was a current issue.

Regarding putting my speakers out side, I tried to dig up some pictures to show you what it really looked like but could not find them. I should have been a little clearer, the space is about 50 feet by 80 ft. sunken in back yard surrounded by landscaping, the landscaping walls are about 15 to 20ft depending on the areas. (boulders etc. it feels like you are in a room) Where the speakers were set-up was in a covered area, the speakers were placed approx. 5 ft off the back wall. It was far from being perfect but it was very interesting.

Regarding your old to you new room wow! that's a difference.

You are correct about the Andra's sound similar to the Von Schweikert. I am looking for speakers for my main room so that is why your thread has caught my attention with what you have put in it and the sounds that you are experiencing.

These MM3's really have me intrigued.

In the pictures they look really nice, is that real wood veneer and if so what type? How is the finish, can't really tell looking at the pics.

Do the speakers come with casters (wheels) so you can move them around?

dev February 12, 2007 00:55

Joey; listening culture is a sensitive subject. i guess eyes open or shut may be a less controversial aspect of it.

personally; i find it to be obvious that my concentration on the music is best when the room is dim my eyes are nearly shut. i'm no neurologist; but i assume that when your eyes are shut or when it's dark more of your brain's computing power goes to your ears.

natural selection has allowed those animals that survive the nights to pass on their genes.....which logically tells us that in darkness you need to pay more attention to sounds.....which could kill you.

even when i go listen to live music i sometimes close my eyes to really get into the music. it allows me to compare my perceptions of live music to reproduced music in my room.

i use the Lutron GRAFIC EYE 2404 controller to set up different lighting 'scenes'. my Pronto remote has 4 discrete buttons that i use to quickly and silently change scenes based on the moment.

the majority of my listening time is spent multi-tasking to some degree. my laptop is open (like right now) and i'm surfing, answering, reading, etc. i have books, magazines, etc. the lights are on behind and above me......and there are 2 floor sitting cans pointing up behind the speakers for 'fill'.

when the mood or music strikes me i may just lay back and close my eyes; or.....close the laptop, hit the off button, and then just float in the soft glow of the (15 watt) lights behind the speakers.....with my eyes nearly but not fully shut. i find that keeping my eyes closed actually takes away from my concentration on the music. dim lights and my eyes a bit closed is least distracting. a completely dark room is distracting to me.

last night i did the whole Beethoven's 9th with the lights fully dim, my eyes mostly semi-shut. it was sublime and invigorating....i can still 'feel' it.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 20:27

Dev, good luck with your cable issue.

my prevoius room was 12' x 18'.....which was a limitation regarding large scale music. however it was an asset with more intimate music and since i listened at a closer distance immediacy was not challenging. my large room is perfect for large scale music; but i have needed to do quite a bit of gear changing and adjustment to attain the immediacy i had in my smaller room.

i have speakers on my patio which are part of my Bang & Olufsen whole house system....but no, i have not taken hifi speakers outside. 10 years ago when we hosted a Wedding in the back yard of our previous home; we did use some hifi speakers outside.....they were thin and dull sounding.

the Andra II has a sound similar to the Von Schweikert.....i think Albert designed them. i agree with your wife.....even though i like the WP7's i prefer the Andras. i'm not sure the darTZeel has quite enough current for the Andras. it's also possible that the impedance settings or the DC offset on the dart might have not been optimized for your setup.....both those issues are critical in getting the dart to sing.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 20:01

Strapper; thanks. good advice.

fyi, i'll likely be buried with the Rockport.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 19:39

MIke,

I was wondering, do you listen with your eyes open or closed?

Joey

joey_v February 11, 2007 17:06

Gregadd; thanks, i will buy it....i always appreciate music recs.

"speaking of bass"....i had another one of those bass 'surprises' last night. i put on "I Can See Clearly Now"; Holly Cole, Don't Smoke In Bed (Canadian Alert Pressing).....a really familiar disc and cut. there is a bit of siblance in her vocals.....which is on the recording. but i've always enjoyed the bass thumps at the beginning, then the piano comes in. it always puts a smile on my face.

only "this" time the bass wasn't just a 'thump'.....it had texture and articulation. then when the piano came in it had an added vibrancy and fire.......an old cut made new.

neat.

i have never heard bass detail that i am now hearing.....and the difference is not subtle.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 16:31

Mike, I received allot of emails and calls from friends regarding what was going on in my system. Some were in awe but others said that they have also had a similar experiences with other cables not just VD. One explanation that was given was all technical, another explanation was that one cable may have got cooked more or even one cable may have got bent more, allot of technical mumble jumble. Well I have to say you sure have to bend these to make them fit and per cable it is not just one cable like the norm but two leads connected into one connector.

It's about 7:30am the next day and the cables are differently settling in, I'll give a week before I do some serious listening but I am liking what I am hearing.

Mike I can only imagine the sound you must be hearing as you said "this room and speakers are made for large scale music and there was a great feeling of control and ease."

This is one area that I personally find different when listening to larger speakers in a larger room is a different sound, more fuller, more grand, more realistic for me anyways.

Some will disagree but that's my opinion.

If I could get away with it I would have larger speakers up stairs also in that "wife friendly" area. I'm working on it, it just might happen. My wife said that see prefers the sound of the new speakers (Eggleston Andra 2's which replaced WP7's) I showed her the pictures of the Savoy's next model up and all she said was what ever why do you need these? You have your own room.

I have to say I am really happy with these Andra's, very musical and over all very convincing but I have memories of other speakers I have had set up in my previous main room that I can't get out of my head.

Smaller speakers just have a over all different sound, In my last home I had a very large room, I had Monoliths, Mag.20's, PMC BB5's active and my favorites were the IRS Infinities four piece set-up is Rosewood. Wow! what a sound stage they threw but you really need a big room like 30' x 40' with min 12' ceilings for the IRS's to get the best out of these.

Have you ever set-up speakers out side? I have, I actually set-up the PMC BB5 XBD active and the IRS's unbelievable.

The DarTZeel, a friend brought his over and we hooked them up to the Andra's, didn't really work well with them. In his system he has the same Vandy 5A's and the all in one EMM cd player and the sound is really good so I know it wasn't the DarTZeel but just the set-up with my Andra's didn't work.

I am look forward to reading more, looking forward to when you talk about the differences vs Von Schweikert.

dev February 11, 2007 15:20

Hi Mike,I talked to you once on the the phone about the Kharma's and you were as nice and helpful as could be.You are very serious about your committment to music and equipment shown by your room and endless search for the ultimate listening pleasure.You work hard and you have the means to keep up with technology,if anyone has a problem with that tell them to kiss your a-s.You only live once enjoy every day of it.By the way if you ever consider selling that rockport let me know I just drool over that.Happy listening and good health.
Robert

strapper211 February 11, 2007 13:06

For true bass fun try the soundtrack to the movie "Cruel Intentions".

gregadd February 11, 2007 12:38

in the late 1950's and early 1960's around our house we listened to the NBC Nightly News with Huntley-Brinkley; which used the 2nd Movement of Beethoven's 9th as it's openning theme. i loved that 'tune' then, and still do.....even though i did not know the name of the 'tune' until years later.

in college; when i got my first stereo; i purchased a complete Beethoven Symphonies Box Set (i think it was one of the Karajan ones but don't really remember). i was into 60's and 70's rock (no jazz or Classical) but i also played Beethoven's 5th, 6th and 9th quite regularly. i just liked them. the particular set i had was a bit faster paced than some i have heard over the years and i still prefer that approach to Beethoven.

i still don't know much about classical music; but i as my system gets more and more refined i listen to more and more classical....and Beethoven is still a focus. i have 5 complete sets of Beethoven's Symphonies on CD and a couple on Lp.....as well as numerous individual recordings of the symphonies. you can never have too much Beethoven (i know many have much more than i).

i just got a new SACD of Beethoven's 9th; Haitink with the London Symphony Orchestra. it's a multi-channel hybrid.

i just listened to the whole thing (in DSD 2-channel) with the lights low. talk about a wonderful time listening to music.

i am in no way qualified to judge classical music other than how it sounds to me. but the recording is full of energy, well paced, beautifully recorded and has that sense of explosiveness when the opportunity presents itself....and yet is also tender and touching.

there are some considerable fireworks from the kettle drums (stage right toward the rear) which the MM3's handle with aplomb; particularly in the 1st and 2nd movements. i was concerned that they would not hold together at the SPL's i was listening at.....but they exploded naturally with clarity and texture.

the 2nd movement was captivating with great pace and flow, better than ever.

the recording has good depth and decent width, with nice layering and localization, but not spotlighting. the room and MM3's separate intstruments well and there is excellent micro-dynamics as well as clarity and warmth.

i won't try to 'review' this music...it's way over my pay grade.

i would say that it's clear that the MM3's and my room were made for each other.....and the darTZeel amp was everything it needed to be. this room and speakers are made for large scale music and there was a great feeling of control and ease.

basically; if it's good enough for a great Beethoven's 9th......i heard no limitations......it's good enough.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 05:45

Audiofool; thanks for the kind words. i remember vaguely the conversation and your moniker.....but can't connect the name.....it sounds like you are having fun.....congrats on the room.....i'm sure it is very satisfying.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 03:19

Dev, thanks.

a few weeks back i had disconnected my speaker cables for some reason and then reconnected them.....innocent enough. but after i went back to listening i noticed that my image had shifted to the right about 15 degrees. as i normally have a spot on center image this definetly got my attention.

i went around checking all the possible causes;

--tried a few different discs including mono...still there.

--checked speaker terminals--ok

--checked balance on preamp--ok

--checked that the power switches were both on for the speaker subwoofer amps--ok

--my amp is stereo so no issues there.....but wait....each channel has a toggle for impedence adjustment depending on input configuration....BINGO!

i checked this and what do you know.....it was suppose to be set on 50 ohms for my BNC 'zeel' connection but when i messed with the speaker cables i had bumped one channel to 75 ohms....which changed the gain enough to offset the image to the right.

my guess is that there is an impedence issue with one of your cables.....i'm no techie so i can't say what the cause would be....but it sounds like the same deal....maybe something loose or a marginal connection....my guess is that your problem will come and go and have nothing to do with breakin. ask for another set of cables.

btw; i listened to a bit of Enya today too (a guilty pleasure for sure) and it sounded damn good.....but don't tell anybody.....i don't want it to get around.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 03:09

Hi Mike - This is the first time I have posted on an Audiogon thread, but after reading the recent unprovoked attack from loxodrome, I just had to write. I'm sure you don't remember me, but I called you on the phone several years ago to ask about Kharma Exqisites (I had heard an excellent demo at GTT). Even though you didn't know me from Adam you couldn't have been more gracious and open in sharing your time and experience (experience, not judgement). Since then I have followed your system not only with an interest in your equipment choices but with the knowledge that you were a generous guy who shares my passion for the hobby of music and music reproduction. I have followed in a similar path and now am fortunate enough to have a dedicated room and some unusual equipment. I had even thought of opening up a "Virtual System" so that others who shared my interest and curiosity in seeing how far one could push the envelope could comment. I think your listing has been a model for that type of interaction. But after your recent experience, I'm not so sure if I want to expose myself to the loxodromes of the world. It seems to me how one spends his hard-earned money and does in the privacy of his own home is really what personal freedom is all about. Those whose only focus is on how much things cost appear to be motivated either by envy (they don't call it a deadly sin for nothing) or perhaps the notion that spending money on audio equipment is either immoral or some kind of zero sum game where what you spend somehow impacts what they spend. I personally would rather they use their time writing to the government if they are that concerned with financial frugality. At any rate, please accept my expression of admiration and support and please keep writing as long as you feel like it.

audiofool February 11, 2007 02:19

Mike regarding Jennifer Warns ("Way Down Deep") I also use this as a system tester, great piece along with many others.

Okay these MM3 speakers are really sounding good, if they are that good don't go to crazy informing everyone because the prices will go up quickly. Just joking!

Appears like that you listen to some great music which I also enjoy, I am listening to Enya right now which also has some great pieces after a stressful couple of days, more about that.

I installed some Virtual Dynamic Revelation 2.0 balanced cables in my system Thursday nite, when I turned the system back on to give a listen wow! I don't me wow! in a good way but what the heck is going on here, the centre image was not centred. It was coming out of the right speaker, I turned everything off to check my connections. I scratched my head saying it's only one length of balanced cables so it's got to be connected properly. I checked anyways making sure the connections were good. (have you ever used VD product? boy is it ridged, you get a work out just pre-bending so you can install it)

Well I'll skip a few days only played back ground music so the cables could settle in. Today being SATURDAY I put on some music around 8am. but no change. I pull out the VD cable and put in one of my other cables, yes back to the norm. I listen for an hour contemplating what to do, I decided to reinstall the VD, same problem but now just in from the right speaker a little. I posted some items on Audiogon so I needed to check my email and reply back to others.

It is now about 4:30pm and decided to sit down and see whats going on. I put on female voice that is suppose be centered, the voice is still off to the right speaker but all the sudden it starts to shift and wala it is in the centre. If I had not heard this myself happen I would not of ever believed it, now the voices are bright, sound is not pleasing.

It's now 7pm and I decided to sit down again to see if there are any changes, the brightness is gone. I have never experienced this before with any cable, tube equipment yes when there is a tub problem.

Have you ever experienced anything like this before?

I can't comment as of yet on the cable but I am being able to listen to Enya and she is just taking me away.

Remember my previous thread to you about stress? well you and I are both right now getting some stress relief.

Enjoy, I look forward to more.

dev February 11, 2007 00:18

further MM3 thoughts;

Deep Bass--there is a track which has a killer bass whack....."Way Down Deep", Jennifer Warnes, the Hunter. i have heard it on many systems before; but it turns out i have never HEARD it really....until now on the MM3's. every prior listening was distorted. i thought is really did make a kind of 'buzz' at the strongest point. but no; it has tone and articulation....it's music...not just a sound.....it has texture, it has a spot in the soundstage, and is musically involving. i'll try to get over my habit of cringing in anticipation.

yes; Jennifer Warnes is a bit 'audiophiley' but i love her voice.

Voices--where do i start? they are simply on another level thru the MM3's. Voices are really full range intruments. by that i mean that any system that is not coherently full range misses part of the magic of vocals. not to say getting part of it correct is not better than screwing part of it up. the MM3 has a crystaline clarity; and yet at the same time this bed of ambient energy that is like real life. the MM3 also is extremely delicate and tonally subtle.....while microdynamically alive. combine all those and you have real life vocals. they are just more 'there' than i have ever heard them.

i pulled out a few of my Lps with vocals to get a feel for it. to be honest; i am not blessed with a vocabulary or ability to do justice to my perceptions regarding my impressions. i will only say that Ella, Louis, and Linda Rondstadt were here last night.

mikelavigne February 10, 2007 17:14

Paul99, thanks.

congrats on the MM2's.....prepare to be amazed.

in the last couple of days the MM3's have truely found their voice. i have found the 'magic' point regarding the crossover. i had it set too low and i had a hole in my mid-bass. this was causing me to keep turning up the gain on the bass trying to find the correct balance. bass impact was lacking and ultimate coherence was missing.

then i moved the crossover from 80hz to 120hz, backed off the bass gain from +3db to 'flat'.....and easy as pie.....sonic bliss!

since Thursday night i have pulled out disc after disc (and Lp after LP)......what first strikes me is the perfect balance. there is a top to bottom coherence unique in my musical listening. there is a seemingly perfect sense of presence; which is what i call having an ease and extention in the mid and deep bass. at the beginning of each cut it's as if the recording venue suddenly appears before me.....i am in that room...now. intstruments happen in that space. whatever the recording can reveal seems to be all there.

i have a few familiar cuts i play to see how smooth the bass is from top to bottom. does it get muddy? is detail obscured? is the fullness and naturalness there and yet are things in balance? how is the pace and pulse of the music?

the MM3's now simply take my expectations on these cuts to a new level.

'Only the Lonely' from Chris Issak on 'Baja Sessions' is a favorite to test mid-bass/lower midrange transition. Chris's voice will overwhelm many full range systems as it easily excites room nodes or any non-linearities.

i have played this cut literally 1000 times on my and many different systems. this cut is quite SPL sensitive as it can easily get all muddy and thick.

the MM3's took this cut to a new level for me. the lack of distortion while pushing the SPL's a bit was mesmorizing. i was pulled into the music and had a hard time listening critically. no bloat.....no thickness...just the music...with more substance and visceral involvement than ever before.

i could list 50 such experiences from my most played cuts these last couple of days. this morning i listened to organ music for a couple of hours.....trying to listen for deep bass but losing my way with the music just pullin me in. i started 2 or three cuts a couple of times as i forgot what i was listening for. i was just enjoying where the music was taking me.

the MM3's just deliver whatever the recording provides without stress. they sound real....they sound alive.....they sound powerfull and delicate.

this weekend i need to pull the RTA out and check things out. but to be honest.....i just want to listen. who cares about numbers if it sounds wonderful?

mikelavigne February 10, 2007 16:20

Mike; anything Herve does will be first-class. if he gives the integrated the same volume control of his preamp it will be killer. you won't likely have the battery power but it will still be a great sounding integrated amp. when i was listening to the pre-production version of the preamp there were times it was not in battery mode.....it still made an awesome combination with the dart amp.

i can't see how you could go wrong.

mikelavigne February 10, 2007 15:34

Ardri; yes, i still use my 'Relax-the-Back' Zero Gravity chair. i have now used it for 6 years and have yet to find anything approaching it's comfort. i keep the chair at a fairly upright position; i am sometimes tempted to recline it to parallel for maximum effect but i'm afraid i'll lose my perfect position for ideal listening. it is just so comfortable for listening.

in general i agree that headrests and high backs are not ideal for optimal sonic performance. but it's not that simple. not all back rests and head rests are created equal. i use to use the Ekones Stressless chair for listening; but it has a broad backrest that is concave and 'cups' the sound. i moved it to my Home Theater to join 2 other Ekones Stressless chairs where the high back issues are less a concern.

any backrest that is wide and tall; particularly with any sort of a concave shape.....is a problem.

my Zero Gravity chair is high backed; but the backrest is quite narrow.....the width of my shoulders....it does rise above my shoulders; but the chair uses a pillow that extends my head a good distance from the backrest.....and the surfaces curve away from my head. comparing it's listening effect to other low back chairs in my room; there is a very tiny difference.....but certainly not better or worse.

mikelavigne February 10, 2007 15:28