I think one allure with tubes is that they create a very rich and pleasing sound without alot of tweaking. Sure, you could roll tubes, and do this and that, but you are really 90% there just at the level of the amplifier. On the other hand, solid state takes alot more care and attention to get right. This is because solid state does not create that decay in the midrange that leads to a sense of body, space, layering, texture, and ambiance. However, it IS possible to achieve this with solid state. This has not been easy, but I feel that I am there. I also do not want to deal with the issue of heat from tubes, plus I want that control and extension that solid state provides.

The items below I think all add-up synergistically, and provide the benefits of tube and solid state with little of the trade-offs. Whereas much of the tweaking we do adds detail to the upper frequencies, these items specifically worked on the lower frequency detail:

1) High-quality tube preamp. There are many threads that state you cannot get a tube sound from a tube preamp, but I beg to differ. While adding 2-4 tubes at the pre may not do it, a very robust and quiet tube pre can do things that cables cannot do. For me, the BAT Rex was a no brainer, wanting a balanced connection, 16 tubes total, and with its over-engineered power supply. Others offerings might include ARC, CAT, VAC, or Joule, but I believe ARC is the only one that is balanced in that list.

2) Proper power cords can really add to the bottom-end heft. Elrod Statement cords have filled in the lower portion, which is key to having a full and balanced midrange with weight and bloom.

3) Gold cables add tremendous texture and warmth to the midrange. After listening to Jade Audio cables for 30 seconds, I realized how flawed my Valhalla cables were. I also feel that they give-up nothing on upper and lower extension. The brass can snarl and bite, but it does not have any grain, and maintains its proper place on the soundstage.

4) Tripoint Troy is a grounding system that has significant effects on soundstage width, depth, and instrument spacing. It adds plump and juicing mid-range details.

5) Gold fuses add mid-range transparency, space, and reduce upper treble grain.

The above items are of significant cost, but I feel that each step will get you closer to a rich and full midrange sound. I think both Boulder and Ayre are great amplifiers, and could be satisfying in the long-run with the proper attention.

rtn1 August 28, 2009 13:51

Hi Brian,

I hear you on the BAT 150SE amps. I really struggled with selling them. I think they do a few things rarely found in other electronis - mostly they get the "weight" on each note right, especially in the mids. All that said, the heat, the 6c33b issues, and top end (6h30 tube signature) are what caused me to look around. I have really enjoyed my Ayre MX R's. Wonderful amps. I can only imagine what your Boulder's sound like, my dealer in Austin has 'em in on evalution - i hope to hear them soon.

These Maxx 3's are my 4th set of Wilsons. (WP 6, 8, Maxx 2 before) I have always stuggled with keeping the weight and body on the instruments. Most of the time you get body or transparency. These traits seems to tug opposite ways.

When I went with my Ayre MX R's, I was very close on also getting a KX R preamp, but ultimately wanted to keep tubes to reatain that warmth and body in mids, with out really sacrificing transparency that good SS is so great at. The Nagra PLL has been wonderful in this regard. My last preamp BAT VK50SE/51SE I kept for nearly 10 yrs. I see that also with with Nagra/Ayre combo (but we'll see :)

I will say that system tweaking has been critical and the breakin on the Maxx 3's seem to take a very long time to get that final little bit. (I've had my maxx 3's since Nov '08). Seems like a touch of warmth comes in after months of playing time.

By tweeking very very careful expirimentation with room treatments, curtains, cabling, footers, and lately very fine changes on my Tri Planar tonearm, have all added up. Also, putting the grills back on the Wilsons.

I am not sure if you have ever talked to Albert, he lives very close to you (loop 12 and hwy 75). Might be worth it to try a few Purist power cords and a interconnect. (Send me a separate note if your curious)

It may be time for vinyl audition. It has its drawbacks. But it's strength is the body and the mid range glory.

Do you have the Hi-Fi tuning Gold/Siver fuses in your system? I found this was big difference in my SS amps. On the warmth/naturalness side. For me, 12 fuses @$25 each, 2-4 weeks breakin (critical here!), nice improvement exactly in the area you mention.

So this is a long winded answer for you. In the end, my experience is close to yours. I've had to work at it to keep that body intact as I increased my transparency (moved to solid state amps). I love my combo, I heard it 100 times at my dealer with his Alexandria's. You have great electronics....though to. Doubtful it's the weak link.

(one more thought, do you keep you preamp/amps fully powered "ON" a 100% of the time? or standby?)

If you're ever in Austin, or just want to make a special trip, let me know! Good luck

jfrech August 28, 2009 11:49

I have followed your system over the years as we have shared similar equipment (BAT VK150 and Maxx 2). I read with interest that you moved away from the BAT's. I have often wondered why those amps aren't often mentioned along with other high end tube amps. I recently have been jonesing for my long lost tube amps, but also live in Texas and have some heat issues. I now have a Alexandrias with a similar midrange/tweeter combination as you have. I have great sound, but I have started to listen to more classical music lately and finds some instruments lack the body that I would like. I would guess tubes would ameliorate that, but I also wonder about cabling. I would be curious about your transition to SS and how you have found that element preserved in your current system. It could just be a weakness of digital.
Thanks

bflowers August 27, 2009 13:48

System edited: Installed 12 Hi Fi Tuning Silver/Gold fuses. 1 each in the Nagra power supplies. And 5 each in the Ayre amps. Really nice step up in transparency, a touch of warmth or maybe "naturalness" little sweeter on top. Nice improvement for the $25 each (on sale!)

jfrech August 12, 2009 12:05

Rsorren1: thanks for the comments and the email. I'll reply soon, very curious there.

Albert: you're welcome anytime ! Yes still traveling quite a bit. I put in hi fi tuning gold fuses everywhere this past weekend (12 in total). Nice improvement for a small expenditure. I'll give you a call soon...

jfrech August 11, 2009 12:13

John, once you have the Maxx 3 broken in and a free weekend I sure would like to come listen.

Are you still traveling in and out of the country for Big Blue?

albertporter August 10, 2009 21:19

Jfrech, you lucky, lucky, lucky, guy; MAXX 3!! Beautiful music and theatre set-up. All the best.

rsorren1 August 09, 2009 21:21

Hi Lenny, where do you live? (I'm in Austin, Tx) Nice combo btw :).

The Nagra seems to not need much or it if did, very subtle over time. The MX R's sounded broken at first and take 100's of hours. Like 2-3 months. I'd just leave em on and playing 24x7 for at least the first month. Everything just eases and begins to flow. It's baby steps all the way but after a month or so you'll notice it. The break in is NOT subtle on the MXR's btw, it's a nice change.

I also tend to leave my MX R's full on unless I am out of town. The amps seem to sound more relaxed and warm this way. It's subtle. The Nagra pre amp emits a turn on "pop" (if you're amps are on), if you turn the volume way down and put it in mute, the pop is benign (it's a feature of this preamp-one less mute switch helps the transparency i think)

I went from super great tube amps (BAT VK150SEs) and really fretted on SS amps. After living with my Ayre's now for 6 months or so, I am happy I made the switch. More resolution, effortlessness, much much quieter background, no tube hassles and dramatically less heat !

What speakers and cabling are you using?

jfrech August 09, 2009 12:04

Nice system. I just bought the Nagra and MX-R. My front end is a dCS Puccinni. How long did it take your Ayre's to break-in?

lenny_zwik August 09, 2009 01:04

Hi Dgad, thanks for your comments. On my room, I have few treatments, ASC tower traps in the corners and a few ASC products on my walls at the reflection points.

I also have a few strategically placed pillows in the corners. I suspect you're right, a well designed, treated just right (not to much or to little) is a killer investment.

I don't think we can take our speakers to heaven! (why I got them for our time here :)

jfrech July 25, 2009 11:39

Jfrech,

Don't underestimate the Skala / Triplanar combination. One of the great matches that I have heard a few times. I prefered the Skala to the MSL & PC1 in different ways. And room treatement is like purchasing new speakers. If I had your speakers where I would be today (heaven?)

dgad July 25, 2009 00:03

Hi Pradeep,

Thanks for the compliment!

I am thinking about a cartridge, maybe early next year. I'd like to do some room stuff next, maybe get the Rive's offering and make sure my room is doing it's best. I agree I've had the Skala a long time, it's really a great value and hard to beat.

I do think the Transfiguration you just bought is on my short list. Can you help me with what you heard as changes over your former Skala?

I have a few friends with the Air Tight PC 1 and Supreme and they just love em. I think thinks come from the same family as your Transfiguruation. I also think this is true for the My Sonic Lab's Hyper Eminient.

I could be wrong here, but I think these are all small variations from the same manufacturer. I think your Transfiguration is likely a great and even a better match for my Tri Planar arm (than my Skala)

How is your Nagra VPS? I am still loving mine !

jfrech July 24, 2009 12:35

Jfrech
Congrats on a really impressive system that I am sure sounds even better than it looks. Much has changed in your system but the Skala remains. If ever you do contemplate a cart upgrade would strongly recommend that you audition the new Transfiguration Orpheus L. Have been there, done it and am immensely happy!!
Cheers
Pradeep

sunnyboy1956 July 21, 2009 06:46

I have made a number of small changes (tweeks) the last few weeks, they seem to be adding up to nice step up in transparency, resolution, imaging focus...

1)To the left of the left speaker is dormer window (can see it in my last system pic partially) This is right at a first refelction point. So I hung a few pillows on wall inside the dormer and in the top corner. Small improvement-cleaned up the left image some.

2)Put the Grand Prix power supply on Cerepucs. Again, small but worthwhile.

3)Surpise! I took the black cloth of the ASC tower traps. Holy cow did this clean up the soundstage, increase resolution and detail. Moral here, be careful if you "conceal" your tube traps !

4)Took the damping trough off my Tri Planar tonearm. Per dougdeacon's tips. This is a nice improvement for any tri planar owner not using the damping trough. Noise floor seeming lowers and the details emerge. Pretty nice improvement here.

Another lesson in careful set up.

jfrech July 17, 2009 13:03

avsource1:

I did try a Ayre KV R. It is pretty special, but I missed the tubes. I hear you :) on the mids. I have also heard the Luxman M800A amp in my system. If it's anything close to your c-600f, it's special. I was very close to getting the m 800a amp.

On power cords and interconnects, I've had the best sound with Purist 20th Anniversary Power Cords and Purist Proteus Provectus interconnects.

Congrats on your Luxman !

If you and Leo need a good source on Purist interconnects, please email me, maybe the place I get them from can help you.

jfrech June 02, 2009 18:57

Leo: I have really enjoyed my PL L, it's been a wonderful match to our VPS/VFS. I am happy you got to hear it.

I think the Purist and Nagra match up very well, especially the new Proteus Provectus.

I agree, if I had to go with a simple system, the BPS is super. Not sure I agree with the recent Stereophile comments on the BPS VPS differences...a little drama possibly.

jfrech June 02, 2009 18:51

Hi Jfrech: Great collection. I had BAT 32SE in my system, you are right about the heat generated. However, have you tried a solid state preamp if you want more extended air in highs, however, the problem is you loose some mid range bloom. Aslo, curious to know your thoughts on Power cord and interconnects from you preamp to amp.
I recently added Luxman c-600F and seems it doing more on the highs.

avsource1 May 31, 2009 12:31

Jfrech,
I went and listened to the PL-L and it is just as seductive as the VPS is. I thought for some reason only the phono section was tube in the PL-P and the PL-L was SS. DA on my part. I had listen to PL-P when it first came out, I liked it alot but at the time it was out of my price range. I also wanted to go balanced and it only had SE.

By the way the new BPS also sounds great. It is all SS.

I am going to try more of these Purist Cables they sound very good and my FMS stuff is getting old.

Enjoy.
Leo

hevac1 May 27, 2009 23:55

Hi Peter, I was thinking about your comments above on your current system. I just re-read your system and the posts.

1)What power cord are you using on your SME motor controller?
2)When was the last time you replaced the belt and cleaned the motor pulley and sub platter (where the belt rides)
3)Have you tried other suppport options besides what you are using today? Speciffically I am think of symposium shelf and/or roller blocks vs maple and heavy cones.

These 3 things always helped me "tweek" my former SME 20/2 table.

I hate to say this, but you might be going downt the same path I did...love love the SME, but might take a direct drive to hit those transients...

Just a few thoughts.

jfrech May 09, 2009 13:20

Thanks Jfrech.
I appreciate the desriptions. The impact/dynamics that you like with the Monaco/TriPlanar are precisely what I find missing in my system. Perhaps that is your new front end, but I'm sure the MAXX 3 and new amps contribut plenty. My system has most of the rest of what you describe - plenty of detail, presence and it is very quiet, but it lacks those explosive transients. I too love the build quality, and sense of body and richness of the SME. Of course, my new PC-1 added a lot of detail and presence.

I would love the adjustability of the TriPlanar VII arm. Perhaps someday...Love reading about your system.

peterayer May 05, 2009 15:48

Hi Peter, Moving away from SME was a difficult decision. I have dearly loved my SME 20/2 and IV.Vi arm. It is just a great table.

I did extensively compare the Grand Prix Monaco/Tri Planar with my SME 20/2 IV.Vi. The cartrdige and tonarm cable were constant (I had a special din connector on the Tri Planar VII u ii version)

Grand Prix Monaco/Tri Planar positives: Transparency, image width, depth, height, quietness of background, impact/dynamics, PRaT, detail retrieval. I realize this is a long list of positives and most of these aren't subtle, more a pronouced change. The clamping system on the Grand Prix seems better, although I don't/can't say if this contributes to the sound improvements. I will say the adjustable VTA on the Tri Planar arm is a big deal and I am not sure I can live with a fixed VTA arm again (or I'll have to have a multiarm table with different arms for differing record heights)

The SME 20/2 IV.Vi Positives I miss, just the way it was built and fit/finish. Seductiveness and bloom in the mids and bass. Bass impact. More rich tonal balance.

Keep in mind, I loved my SME and kinda wish I could have kept it and the Grand Prix.

One thing I might recommend to you is trying a Tri Planar on your SME. I never did this, but I suspect some of the things I love are from the arm and some from the Grand Prix Monaco table.

Hope this helps !!

jfrech May 05, 2009 12:40

Jfrech,
Those changes must sound incredible. I'm most interested in your impressions of the Monaco/TriPlanar versus the SME 20/IV.vi, though all of the changes you have made in the last year seem pretty dramatic. How would you describe the change in sound of your front end? Congratulations.
Peter

peterayer May 04, 2009 20:29

Hi Neil, well since I've tried Proteous Provectus interconnects and you the PP speaker cable, maybe the bigger difference is in the interconnects and tonearm wire vs the speaker cable?

From my experience, I'd say the tonearm wire first ...(I went from Venastas tonearm to Proteus Provectus tonearm...on the phono to pre I've used Venastas, Opis, Dominus Ferrox and now Proteus Provectus)

Besides, Venastas is very good. It's (the interconnect) embarassed several 4k (read more than twice as expensive other name brand) interconnects I used to own.

I think system matching as this point is the most important, as you above. I bet those electrostats sound great in your system !

I hope we all outlive this recession. My credit card is outa control...not sure if that helps or hurts the economy!

jfrech April 19, 2009 18:06

John, I guess I forgot to mention that I did demo a PP speaker cable that Al Porter lent me and found it somewhat (though not spectacularly) better than the Venustas I have. That surprisingly small difference could be because while the Venustas already has a very low capacitance (like the PP) it has a bit higher resistance than the PP, which is actually a 'good thing' for electrostats.

So if I were to start changing out cable (assuming I outlive this recession ;-) I guess I'd start with the tonearm and other source IC's like you did (?) or would it be better to change out the long preamp/amp XLR's?
.

nsgarch April 19, 2009 15:09

It seem we are from your descriptions, the inner detail "depth" with fullness "warmth" of the notes is something I didn't think was possible, I thought it was one or the other. It has component status in my system!!!

samhar April 19, 2009 13:19