UPDATE (12/23/07): added the MBL 5011 preamp. After living with my Esoteric front end for almost 3 months without a pre, I came to the realization that a pre was definitely needed. Without a pre, the sound was a bit thin and lacking bass. The 5011 addressed these issues and so much more. I did not realize how poor my soundstaging was until I introduced the 5011. This pre does in incredible job of layering the soundstage as well as separating each individual instrument.
UPDATE (12/07/07): added the Ayre MX-R amps. These were broken in by my dealer for 2 weeks before I took delivery. I rarely am taken back by gear but I was startled at how much real these amps sounded to me than my previous amps. There is more detail, more immediacy of notes, very good separation of instruments, and a very nice holographic presentation. I can go on and on but by far these amps are the most realistic sounding I have come across. They are just so enjoyable to listen to!
UPDATE (9/29/07): added Esoteric P-03 transport and D-05 DAC. The D-05 has the latest 32 bit DAC from AKM. Even only after a few hours I hear much better separation between instruments and notes, better sustain and decay, and more authoritative bass. More updates to follow.
UPDATE (8/03/07): added the Oyaide R1 outlet for my amps. Everything is a bit livelier with much better detail. I am hearing so many little nuances I have never heard before!
UPDATE (7/24/07): added the Oyaide SWO-GX Ultimo outlet to my front end. What a difference! The bass now goes lower and there is more detail across the board. I will adding another outlet for my amps next. This is by far one of the best tweaks I have ever done.
UPDATE (7/13/07): I finally got around to adding some heavy silk drapes and they made a world of difference. Everything is much smoother. I will continue to look for ways to judiciously treat my room without making it look like a recording studio.
Beauty:
-The sound is just incredible. Vocals are holographic and textured.
-The MBL 5011 preamp is beautiful to look at. Luckily the sound is just as good.
-The Ayre MX-R amps are just gorgeous to look at. The casework is outstanding. And as my wife said, "they are so cute"!
Beasts:
-The Usher BE-10 speakers are big and thick producing a powerful yet delicate sound.
-The Esoteric P-03 transport is incredibly heavy (75lb) and big but it sure sounds good.
My system has undergone A LOT of changes over the last few years. This has been mainly to me figuring out my own listening preferences and understanding what I wanted to get out of my system. After swapping out a lot of components and spending too much money, I have finally settled down a bit.
I listen to all kinds of music but tend to favor anything with female vocals, particularly acoustic folk and vocal jazz. I also favor simple orchestration and basic instrumentation with a preference for acoustic guitar and piano. The less number of instruments between me and the vocals the better. I mainly go to listen to music in small, intimate venues where I am able to sit within a few feet of the band.
Given my musical tastes, I wanted to put together a system that is able to reproduce the sound as organically as possible. I want to hear every little detail like the quiver in a singer's voice, the sound of the guitar pick striking the string, the feeling of the hammer hitting the piano string. To me, these tiny nuances help to make the music sound as real (i.e. organic) as possible. To this end, I wanted a system that was detailed, dynamic, fast, and immediate with just a hint of warmth. I did not want anything that was too syrupy sounding though. My current system gives me everything I am looking for. It is as close to hearing musicians in my room that I have ever heard with any previous iteration of my system.
I love the Esoteric sound so much I had to get their P-03 transport.
Esoteric D-05
Anniversary model with new AKM 32 bit DAC
Esoteric VRDS-Neo
This transport is a work of art! By far, the best, most accurate transport available. The amount of detail it extracts is amazing!
Sonos ZP-80
Wireless digital music system. Digital output is sent to Esoteric D-05 DAC, a huge improvement over internal DAC. I enjoy my music so much more now that I have instant access to my 40K song library
MBL 5011
A very musical preamp with outstanding soundstaging and separation of each instrument.
Ayre Acoustics MX-R
I am so happy with these amps. They make everything sound so real it is startling! The transparency and dynamics suit my preferences perfectly!
Usher BE-10
Very dynamic and neutral sounding speaker. I am sold on beryllium!
Tara Labs The One
Very transparent and "tight" sounding cable that also offers weight and solidity. These give me all the virtues I admired in my previous speaker cable, the Nordost Blue Heaven while providing what it was missing.
Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II
Used between my source and preamp. Great detail without sounding bright or edgy.
Acoustic Zen Matrix Reference II
Used between my preamp and amp. Very smooth sounding.
Acoustic Zen MC2 XLR
AES/EBU digital cable from Esoteric P-03 transport to D-05 DAC.
Acoustic Zen Silver Byte
Used to synch the word clock from the Esoteric D-05 DAC to the P-03 transport.
Acoustic Zen MC2 RCA
Digital cable from Sonos ZP-80 wireless digital music system to Esoteric D-05 DAC.
Virtual Dynamics Nite 3
Being used to power by MBL 5011 preamp. Like all VD power cables I immediately noticed more dynamics, speed, and authority. The soundstage with the VD power cables are incredible!
Star Sound Technology SP-4 Sistrum Stand
Great amp stand that helped to add smoothness to my system.
Oyaide SWO-GX Ultimo
Double cryo'd outlet with 24K gold plating - used for cdp and preamp
Oyaide R1
Cryo'd ac outlet with Beryllium/copper and palladium plating - used for amps
HiFi Tuning Fuse
I added this "audiophile" fuse to my MBL 5011 preamp. I am not sure it made any difference but it was cheap and lord knows I have spent much more money on things that actually made my system sound worse! My previous preamp, Classe CP-700 did respond positively to these fuses though. I still may try some in my other components.
Tboooe, one other piece I left out w.r.t. preamp volume controls: If a design claims to be true balanced (differential) then each phase(+/-) will require its own attenuator. Therefore 4 such attenuators actually compose the overall "volume control": left/right differential phase. I'm not that familiar with the Esoteric but what the spec sheet shows does not indicate that this is so. I think the volume control is simply done single ended and then they use op-amps to generate the inverted/non-inverted outputs (based on what I see in the product literature). I think to optimize your maximum objective performance in your system you ought to use the fixed outputs from the DAC and run that to a true balanced line stage.
Dpac996: Thank you for all the details above; they are extremely informative to those of us who don't understand the electrical engineering aspect of these device. Thanks!
Tboooe: When we talked a few days back you mentioned you were thinking about going back to the Classe CP-700 you had enjoyed previously. I have one in conjunction with my Esoteric P-03U and D-03 combination and the pairing is quite amazing. The difference should be night and day compared to the bare minimum volume control in the D-05 or any similar device (IMHO).
warning: long boring technical details: To obtain the level of fidelity we usually seek, the role of the preamp is hugely important, perhaps the most critical element in the chain. The main function we realize is "simply" to control the volume. The usual methodology of modern preamp design is for the line level signal to first hit the volume control. This passive device can be a basic potentiometer, a rotary (think shallco) ladder or shunt, a packaged integrated circuit (these contain switching elements, and resistive elements, and have a digital interface with a microprocessor for attenuator select), or a transformer volume control (TVC). Of course there are many ways to fabricate the attenuator but these are the most common. The IC's typically are very inexpensive solutions but neatly solve the problem of fine volume control with easy integration to remote controls. Unfortunatley they do contain active elements in addition to the resistive ones that, for one make analysis more difficult, and may ultimately be the limiting factor in an otherwise well implemented preamp design.
The simplest path for the signal (fewest parts) is more desirable than one that requires the signal to flow to many differing elements.
The main problem the designer faces is noise. All resistive devices generate noise that is directly proportional to the resistor value. Another issue involves maintaining a constant input impedance (or close) to the sources. I beleive it is this stage that ultimately determines the dynamic range potential and accuracy of the preamp. If the low level content of our precious signal is lost in the noise floor here, there is no chance of regaining it down the line. We know it is the low level detail that gives rise to microdynamics, sense of space, and air, and overall presence.
The next stage is gain and sometimes buffering. The signal that emerges from the passive volume control is now amplified by a fixed gain and maybe buffered such that it presents a low enough AC output impedance to not significantly be affected by long cable runs and/or low input impedance amplifier front ends (these usually run from 10k to 100k). I beleive it is this stage that ultimately "flavors" the resulting character of the signal passing though the preamp. The gain functions can of course be implemented with solid state devices (bipolar, mosfet, jfet) or with vacuum tubes. The choice of tubes usually brings with it the need to isolate the plate voltage from the external world, and as such dc blocking capacitors are the usual choice. One could also use a transformer here (just like the output transformers in tube power amps but on a much smaller power scale). So of course it is more trade offs here. The tube circuit carries with it the penalties of additional design requirements to make sure the output is safe and will not kill the downstream component. One can dispense with these additional requirements if solid state is chosen. Of course there is the power supply...(tube regulation, solid state regulators, toroid/ei core/c core...)
These statements reflect my understanding of the basics of preamp design and really don't even scratch the surface. When we decide on a preamp we are paying for these design choices based on research and development (experience), trial and error, measurements, and of course sound quality.
The tradeoff you face in any source that has a variable output is that usually this piece is given the least slice of development dollar pie, and is quite difficult to assess its performance as a preamp. This preamp/volume control is also mixed in with digital elements and noise issues here require extra care in the PCB layout and isolation to avoid noise in addition to the basic preamp problem...It is usually an inexpensive potentiometer, or maybe a digital control that comes with its own headaches. When you buy a dedicated unit, such as the REF 3 you had, you are paying for a direct solution to the volume control problem.
Thank you Dpac996. I totally agree with you about the volume control of my D5. Now I need to try and quantify how much better the sound is with a great pre vs using the D5 only.
warning: long boring technical details: To obtain the level of fidelity we usually seek, the role of the preamp is hugely important, perhaps the most critical element in the chain. The main function we realize is "simply" to control the volume. The usual methodology of modern preamp design is for the line level signal to first hit the volume control. This passive device can be a basic potentiometer, a rotary (think shallco) ladder or shunt, a packaged integrated circuit (these contain switching elements, and resistive elements, and have a digital interface with a microprocessor for attenuator select), or a transformer volume control (TVC). Of course there are many ways to fabricate the attenuator but these are the most common. The IC's typically are very inexpensive solutions but neatly solve the problem of fine volume control with easy integration to remote controls. Unfortunatley they do contain active elements in addition to the resistive ones that, for one make analysis more difficult, and may ultimately be the limiting factor in an otherwise well implemented preamp design.
The simplest path for the signal (fewest parts) is more desirable than one that requires the signal to flow to many differing elements.
The main problem the designer faces is noise. All resistive devices generate noise that is directly proportional to the resistor value. Another issue involves maintaining a constant input impedance (or close) to the sources. I beleive it is this stage that ultimately determines the dynamic range potential and accuracy of the preamp. If the low level content of our precious signal is lost in the noise floor here, there is no chance of regaining it down the line. We know it is the low level detail that gives rise to microdynamics, sense of space, and air, and overall presence.
The next stage is gain and sometimes buffering. The signal that emerges from the passive volume control is now amplified by a fixed gain and maybe buffered such that it presents a low enough AC output impedance to not significantly be affected by long cable runs and/or low input impedance amplifier front ends (these usually run from 10k to 100k). I beleive it is this stage that ultimately "flavors" the resulting character of the signal passing though the preamp. The gain functions can of course be implemented with solid state devices (bipolar, mosfet, jfet) or with vacuum tubes. The choice of tubes usually brings with it the need to isolate the plate voltage from the external world, and as such dc blocking capacitors are the usual choice. One could also use a transformer here (just like the output transformers in tube power amps but on a much smaller power scale). So of course it is more trade offs here. The tube circuit carries with it the penalties of additional design requirements to make sure the output is safe and will not kill the downstream component. One can dispense with these additional requirements if solid state is chosen. Of course there is the power supply...(tube regulation, solid state regulators, toroid/ei core/c core...)
These statements reflect my understanding of the basics of preamp design and really don't even scratch the surface. When we decide on a preamp we are paying for these design choices based on research and development (experience), trial and error, measurements, and of course sound quality.
The tradeoff you face in any source that has a variable output is that usually this piece is given the least slice of development dollar pie, and is quite difficult to assess its performance as a preamp. This preamp/volume control is also mixed in with digital elements and noise issues here require extra care in the PCB layout and isolation to avoid noise in addition to the basic preamp problem...It is usually an inexpensive potentiometer, or maybe a digital control that comes with its own headaches. When you buy a dedicated unit, such as the REF 3 you had, you are paying for a direct solution to the volume control problem.
dpac, thanks for the tip. BTW, can you please explain the tradeoffs associated with variable output sources? Will there be issues if I use preamp and fix the output?
One thing for sure, the D5 volume control does not suit me. However, it would seem like a monumental waste for me to buy an expensive preamp just to have good attenuation range and low level adjustibility. You are right, I am going to try the Promitheus TVC passive pre. I know I can alwasy go back to the SS pre I had before if all else fails.
I need to let the Esoteric break in a bit more to see if the sound changes over time to the point where a preamp is not necessary (in terms of sound quality).
If the verdict is out as to whether the Ref3 vs the D5 volume is better, I would say sell the Ref3 because that's $10K worth of audio equipment that is not able to give a clear cut improvement.
You can try a passive line stage and see if that helps your situation with regards to the usability of the D5's volume control.
Audiophile1, You need to relax. Mind your own business.
More thoughts on the Esoteric P3D5 combo. I am going to focus this post on the volume control of the D5.
- the D5 does not have as much attenuation range as I would like. The first volume setting after mute is still pretty loud. Since I rarely listen above 75 db, low volume control is critical for me.
- the D5 volume control steps are too large. The first few steps are 6.5 (whatever that means) then after a bit it changes to 1.5
- there is considerable hiss through my tweeters with the D5 connected straight to my amps. I did not hear this much hiss with any of my previous preamps.
Overall, the jury is still out whether or not the D5 sounds better through a preamp or straight to the amp. However, form a usability point of view, the D5 volume control does not meet my particular needs. Am I willing to live with these issues? Perhaps if the sound is good enough that I can convince myself I do not need a preamp. I would like nothing more than to not have to spend a decent chunk of money on a preamp.
VX700...thanks for the input. My musical taste varies and spans my earliest memory of listening to the radio when I was about 5. I have been collecting music for some time and I purchase 20-30 cds a month. Needless to say my cd collection is approaching 10,000. I like everything from The Smiths to Ella Fitzgerald, to Vivaldi to Stan Getz to Astrud Gilberto to Bobby Womack to Eminem. I tend to go in phases and try to immerse myself into a particular genre and learn as much as I can about its history and beginnings.
Overall, I would say I enjoy anything with female vocals. My favorites right now are: Eva Cassidy HEM Katie Melua
Any issues with the JL's? Are they easy to dial in?
Reply-Hi Tboooe, Subs are not dialed in yet- They are running well, no issues. I should have them were I went them soon- but isn't that some of the fun when ejoying the music, making adjustments that are noticable and don't hurt the Wallet!
cool. I always thought it would be interesting to try one of the Pass Labs preamps to go with a Pass amp....but for me it's tough to get away from tube pre....got spoiled by tubed preamps in my system for the past 10 years. May be one day I will finally commit to trying a good solid state preamp....who knows....may be sooner than later...
Audphile, I am using the D5's volume control to see if I can get away without a preamp. We will see. The verdict is still out until the system totally breaks in. If I do need a preamp I will probably go back to solid state...
T, what have you decided on the preamp? I noticed you're selling the REF, so what's in the works? Or will you just run the rig using Esoteric built-in volume capabilities?
YVx700 you way too kind. I really cannot get over how nice your room looks and must sound. All that MAC gear must be sweet and musical sounding. I have thought about adding the JL Audio subs. In my crazy car audio days, I used to run twin 12" JL audio subs in an sealed box...needless to say my little Acura rocked! Any issues with the JL's? Are they easy to dial in?
After living with the Esoteric P3D5 combo for almost a week, here are my thoughts as compared to my previous X-03SE cdp
- the sound is much bigger. The soundstage envelops the listener. It sounds like the stage fills up the front portion of my listening room, top to bottom and front to back.
- the sound is more natural and organic sounding. I am not sure if this is due to the 32 bit DAC or not but vocals sound more real to me, as if I am hearing someone singing in my room without a microphone.
- much better separation of notes and instruments. Perhaps because the soundstage has grown, instruments seem to have better separation.
- my speakers disappear more so than they ever had. Again, I think this is due to the larger soundstage. I hear less music directly from my speaker.
I only have about 50 hours on this system so far. I can only imagine what things will sound like after it thoroughly breaks in. Needless to say, I am very happy with the Esoteric P3D5. I have reached the end of the road in terms of digital playback for the foreseeable future (lol...the audiophile's favorite saying).
I really don't understand why you like to argue every little bit of minutia. You have already clarified with Tommy what was originally said, why do you feel the need to take it up with me, too?
Would it help to let you know that Tommy and I exchange emails outside of audiogon and we talk about audio quite frequently. Knowing this, does it make it so hard for me to understand what he originally meant without him having to go into detail with the "what" and the "why"?
Organic is not always good. First time we shopped at Whole Foods, we bought some food that made us really sick. All those years of fast food i'm fine...and what is considered to be a health nut store makes me sick...go figure.
recordings are like photographs. You want to relive happy moments as captured on the photo, but time passes and it will never be the same. Live shows (anywhere) are much the same way. We are (usually) experiencing it with others, are totally relaxed and having collective fun...though we hang on to such events we can't relive these moments...Such is life. Live music is live music and recorded music is what it is. Totally different no matter how you "timbrally" slice it ( or is that timbre-ly... gotta love these made up terms). For me, life is too short to get caught up in obsessive comparisons between the sound of, say, a live trumpet, and a recorded one (furthermore it won't even be the same time/space trumpet we are comparing unless we are in the studio and part of the recording chain...so the whole argument is further cast into meaningless-ness)
on a diff note, A'gon can be such a dog and pony show, but the only thing that really matters is if it makes the owner happy. If it sounds good, how can it be anything but good?
10-03-07: Joey_v ...But I understand exactly what Tommy was trying to say in his initial statement. I agree.. organic is good.
Joey Joey_v (Threads | Answers)
In his initial statement? Did you really? To me it made no sense. Well, until Tommy clarified what he was trying to say after Ras422 actually "eloquently" said it.
So "organic" to you means small venue, jazz club type of sound? If it is amplified, can it be "organic"?
Examples(forget the Spice Girls for now): A Metallica concert at Giants Stadium, a symphony performed at Carnegie Hall, Patricia Barber performing at Jazz Standard all fall under live music category.
Out of the 3 examples, I would consider an event at Carnegie Hall to be "organic" type of sound, if I'm using this term properly. Metallica and Pat Barber would fall under the amplified live music category. Both performances are great(if you're a fan of the artists). It's just that the Barber show or any other show in a small jazz club would be more "righteous", more "audiophile" sounding than Metallica concert, as far as we're concerned. But I'm not sure term "organic" applies here.
I have fun discussing this though....but don't want to highjack Tommy's system thread. But I think to spice it up a bit more and make it more interesting, this was a cool discussion to have.
