Audio Hobby Thoughts, Philosophy & System Description
Current Room Anchors - Room 1 and 2 active
Room 1 - Matrix 800's anchors - for creating that ..........Maxell Tape Effect.
Room 2 - (Adjacent to Room 1) - Quad 57 + two Dynaudio BM12s subs - Midrange reference
Room 3 - Acoustat Model 3 - Modded - upstairs - For imaging larger than life (literally speaking) - see last picture. Unfortunately is next to my wifes TV room. So it gets limited use.
Stored - B&W Electrostatic DM70c Continental - Wife calls them the washing machines. John Bowers called them his favorite speaker. Very interesting and very rare. Could anchor a room but they need special placement and lots of room. ESL portion needs to be 100% functional and at ear level or they will sound soft.
Room 2 is mostly digital, guests, and used for trialing used unplayed records before they make the queue for room 1. Room 1 has been called by my family as Dads Hole. I prefer panic room as it helped to raise my kids and stay married...so far.
Psychology Part
Music is critical to ones health and well being. I went through a couple stretches in life due to events without it and the results were not good. The goal for me to get lost in the music and have it transport me to that special place. Now whether you get there by a typical 2 channel home stereo with speakers, headphones, or other means is not important. Getting there is the important part.
Audiophile not.....
Have always been the type that if I frequent a room enough, a system usually ends up in there. My wife finally put an end to this, and allows me to do what I want in the full basement of our house.....so..... In this described virtual system, I have had Room A since 1994. Adjacent Room B is in the process of being finished, but I have been using it for listening for a few years now adding in room treatments as needed.
History
Like many others, have been at this audio hobby since I was about 13 when I was consciously aware of the gear versus the actual music relationship. I am now 55 and currently with two adjacent music rooms setup with different gear. Both rooms can do full orchestra symphonies with large dynamic swings. Getting Room B with the Quad 57's to do this was a challenge; but I was able to get it to work with the right amps and powered subs. The Quads require a very different room acoustic setup over the Matrix 800's in Room A.
I am a pure amateur, audiophile, music lover, past trombone player, and have never been part of the Audio Business as a manufacturer, dealer, distributor, or have any special interest relationships with any of these people. I consider myself a full time music lover, and part time audiophile; although I have friends that could argue this point. I have tried to upload pics and information here, that give a flavor of some of my audio journeys, and associated bouts of Audiophilia Nervosa. :^)
"Audio Heaven, is for Music Lovers - Audiophiles are never happy.
With that, in the real, authentic, Heaven; there is room, even for Audiophiles"
8^0
Living in the country
Having moved away from the city core in the 90's, I have found that audiophiles away from the cities, are in general, scare to find and or keep to themselves. Many of my audio friends are now remote, due to the distance between us; so only virtual communications are possible most of the time.
The negative aspects of Isolation aside; one good aspect of living in the country is the clean power and lack of noise and vibrations caused by traffic, trucks, etc...Once experienced and its effect on your listening, you become very aware of the multitude of audiophile products available as band aids, to cover, veil, but never eliminate these artifacts in densely populated areas.
I was born in the 60's so I grew up with Classic Rock, Beatles, etc... But I love all music, new music and Opera hits home with me. I played trombone in Jr and High school so the Bass Clef has a bias with me. Listen more now to the ladies crooning at me, Classical and Jazz with occasional Classical Rock; I think a well recorded full Orchestra Symphony with huge Dynamic swings has the most magic for me.
***** MAIN ROOM aka Panic Room, Dad's Hole, ....*****
I have had Room A since 1994. It has 3 dedicated lines 20, 20 , 15. This room is personal use. Room B is more for entertaining and spending time with friends.
Room A is much better insulated and isolated from my wife. As much as I would like to move the Matrix 800's to the larger Room B space to try them, it would probably just get me that much more trouble.
Room A and B are both located on a concrete poured floor. A has a an underpad and flat carpet on top. Spikes from gear stands and speakers are able to penetrate to the concrete with no problem ensuring a solid mechanical connection. The speakers are located 6 feet from the front wall with the room being 24 ft in length. Putting in the 800's over the 801's meant that some of the room treatments were able to be removed due to the 800's double woofers high and low. This is also one of the reasons I call them very room friendly.
1/4 inch 2 track machine. The three pictures attached. Top Left - known as two turntables. my machine being worked on Middle pic - 807 Top Right Pic. A picture of Roger Ginsley with a 48 track machine he is about to split into two 24 tracks. My Studer 807 is calibrated by him. He is also the one that makes the interconnects I use with it.
JC Verdier La Platine Vintage Granito Original Design
2012
http://www.jcverdier.com/ADSL/platineVintage.html
Just a delight to use. With its presentation, sends the message home that it is all amount the music. Effortless, seamless, but experience is needed is setting up the thread. A real Goldilocks scenario of the thread being too loose, too tight or just right. Different thread tensions alternate how the motor and platter work together and change the speed. The objective is to get the correct speed with as little effect from the motor. ....
Original design. Granito Model My version uses a motor only equipped for thread Granito base and solid aluminum billet armpod. The later newer motors are equipped now for belts too - but no one runs them this way that I know of. This decision was made imo to generate more sales as it is easier to setup. But imo the belt grip would play havoc with the motor / magnets marriage which was designed for thread. I would think that belt stretch and its physical changes with temp and humidity changes would also cause problems, and interfere with the natural braking action of the magnets. This is my opinion as mine is thread only. There is a greater learning curve involved with thread.
This is the only turntable I am aware of whose platter design includes both acceleration (inertia) and braking (natural forces from same pole magnets) to deal with the records behavior - going from soft to heavily modulated grooves. The motor design, like a marriage with the platter. Think of the childhood merry go rounds that once up to speed - even a little girl could keep them going. To understand how the motor and platter are like a marriage, one need only turn the motor off and the platter spins for 30 seconds with the thread attached. However cut the thread while the platter is turning, and the platter stops much quicker as the two magnets demonstrate their braking capability. Impressive to me is just the plain simplicity of design using physics to get the job done with a piece of string and magnets. I found it important in setup to have the thread positioned in a way that is the least intrusive on the platter; so as to allow the platter to not only do its job as designed; but to also provide the needed jolts as required from the motor to maintain speed stability.
In my opinion - you will know when you have set it up properly because you are able to turn the motor off and on and also deflect the thread with your finger - as the records plays - and not affect the music delivery to your ears. I base this when compared directly to 15 IPS Master Tape dubs. In testing for accuracy I run both simultaneously with one lagging 10 seconds behind the other and switch between the two - compensating for gain as tape is a high level signal. When the thread is setup in this fashion there is minimal stress put on it. The current silk thread I am using has recently passed the one year mark. Overall Big Sound from a small piece of thread.
Some facts Magnetic bearing design. Brass colored rings are big shielded permanent magnets; same magnet poles repelling each other. The result is "levitation" the space you see between them. No thrust bearing involved. A central spindle bathed in a special oil keeps them aligned. For me personally I did not know what TT bearing noise sounded like until I heard music on a TT without a physical bearing. The plinth is made of Granito. Granito is not real granite but a non-resonant material that looks and feels like granite. A limited edition model.
"Granito is a material composed by little pieces of marble of very different origin agglomerated inside a mold with cement. Machined and polished. The resonance of the plinth with its suspension is about 5Hz and it is well absorbed by the air cavities."
Mr. JC Verdier Note: Newer Platines are provided with a setup bearing. The manual is very clear on the setup bearing. It is just that - a setup tool only. COUNTERFEIT PLATINES Unfortunately there are non-authentic tables out there worldwide from 20 different counterfeiting makers. These tables are out there with people using them. If anyone is unaware of this, see the Platine Information on the JC Verdier website for more info.
The only advice I can give is when buying a Verdier Platine you should be careful to ensure it is a real Platine, especially if buying privately. If you already have one and have doubts, check with an authorized dealer or J.C. Verdier company in France to ensure it is authentic.
Custom Eminent Technology Model 2.5 for MC Carts
This is a custom build ET 2.5 Tonearm from Bruce Thigpen - A 19 PSI design.I am using the new Long I Beam. Weights are reduced by half and therefore the vertical inertia is higher - a goal of the design. The Aluminum Gooseneck was sourced from NZ. It was through Richard Krebs also an ET2 owner. I am using Single Shot WBT wiring, Aluminum mount plate. Magnesium armtube. Double Leaf Spring and damping trough. If you are an ET2 owner you know what I am talking about :^).... Advantages of the ET2 airbearing linear tracker tonearm - no VTF changes with VTA adjustment, no offset setup, antiskating and immunity to acoustic feedback, as it rides on film of air.
One shot wire. Run at 19 PSI. Damping trough with 1 cc of Oil. Lead weights at the very end of the I Beam.
VTA on the fly while the record plays and it doesn't change any parameters (VTF) like all other tonearms do. This is due to a patented VTA on the fly system. Have you ever noticed how with same thickness records....some can sound brighter, some bloated and some just right? When they press the records the different plants can have different standards. Records are then cut with varying angles.. even same thickness ones.
See ET2 Bass Management Below
Tonearm Wiring Loom - One shot WBT NextGen
2011 One shot wiring loom for the ET 2.5. WBT 0102 CU connectors. The design of the ET2 (2.5) allows for this wiring to be changed out in about 10 minutes. Silver and copper can be experimented with.
The PUMP ET2
Life Support for the ET2's. Timeter 3000 Medical Industrial Pump. The most important part of the ET2 arms setup. Industrial commercial grade medical pump. Its actually a patient respirator.
These have an hours counter and come up for sale cheaply on ebay. If you have space in your basement somewhere they are turnkey once set up.
I have tried large aquarium pumps, smaller medical pumps, compressors.
This Timeter Medical 50 psi pump has been customized to allow me to regulate air pressure coming out and send 19 psi to the ET2 tonearms. Another regulator with gauge at the arm allows me to accurately adjust for the PSI coming into the arm. Located in another room -cannot be heard in sound room when running.
The smoothness of air delivery is excellent. No resonance. The pump dumps/expels moisture like a car's AC. Have never seen a drop in the moisture collector; other than one incident when the pump outlet clogged with minerals from the moisture. I now soak the pump outlet in CLR for 2 hours every two months.
ET2 In Room Air Regulator & Filter
2nd Regulator and Filter on wall near the ET arm. Confirms and controls the 19 psi and also filters out moisture in line. Have never seen any moisture in this filter. This device lets me change the pressure going to the arm by just turning the top mounted knob. This regulator is mobile. It can be placed in my lap while the music is playing and pressure adjusted to hear how it affects the music delivery.
Audio Research DAC8
From a DAC only function perspective identical to the ARC REF DAC except the output stage is tubed on the REF. Interesting read. :^)
Owned many many years. Modded power supply box. Variable Gain for dealing with hot, and compressed source material - Digital and Analog. On the fly cartridge impedance loading. Used in ARC's hotrod mode. Direct output and bypass switch engaged. Amperex Bugle Boys.
Matrix 800
Unique one time all assault effort from B&W at a time when 2 channel was the focus. Smooth, musical yet still detailed. Room Friendly if you can believe it. Imagine 4 subs two high and two low pointed at you for 2 channel music. Each driver 2 woofer, mids, tweeter have their own crossover easily accessible from the back.
They were a 2 1/2 year study from Bowers & Wilkins under John Bowers (RIP). I have looked for a long time for a pair. The only time they become available are through owners going to a smaller condo (retiring or divorce).
All B&W 800 models that followed the Matrix series are the same only in model designation - 800. They are not a replacement or upgrade. They are a different build, design, objectives, sound. Post Matrix 800's are a smaller speaker system (require a sub for full range); they do have better WAF (more easily placed into a shared room with the wife)
800 matrix can be played at low and high levels with the right amp. 93db 2.83 volts/1m, Mine are Quad wired. They can be run on four separate amps if one desires as each driver has its own crossover.
Top and bottom woofers each excite a different set of waves. These waves cancel each other out. Thats the theory. My listening supports this. Smooth tight bass. It is quite something to experience since their size make you think they will over take the room. Also IMO each woofer works only half as much with four versus two for the desired SPL. All of this results in a very flexible listening position. All drivers are physically isolated with separate crossovers and Van Den Hul silver wiring from the factory. I run them with both tubes and Solid State. Krell and the modded Music Reference RM9.
Krell Amplifier Story My research found me talking with Dan D'Agostino who used matrix 800's as his reference speakers when he designed this era of Krell amps. Specifically the FPB series like my FPB600. On a dedicated 20 amp circuit with upgraded 20 amp power cord using Furutech Gold IEC.
RM9 Push Pull Tube Amp. Used to power Acoustat, 801, 800 speakers. WBT 0700 Connectors. KT88 output tubes. Hardwired for 4 ohm tap. Total Overhaul done April 2015
MATRIX 800 INSTALL
Installation
800 Series Bass Alignment Filter / Equalizer.
The graph shows the 801 matrix frequency response with and without the filter.
All 800 series B&W matrix speakers are an active design and are intended to be used with an equalizer by the designer (John Bowers) to achieve the best frequency response.
This attached graph was sent to me by B&W Europe years ago
It is the frequency plot for the 801 matrix "without" using the supplied Bass Alignment Filter. (not sure if it is 801 s2 or s3)
B&W England are the ones that drew the two dotted lines on the graph.
The 801 matrix speakers were designed to be used with the BAF. The speakers with BAF devices were shipped to original owners. But these devices became lost as speakers changed hands. They pop up on their own on ebay.
The two interesting parts.
Part 1
Not only does adding the BAF filter as designed give you a smoother response and allow the speaker to hit 20 hz. The BAF makes the 801 matrix speaker much more efficient. The ohm ratings can be seen on the right 8 - 6 - 4 - 2 ohms. The 801 matrix s2 and s3 are a very easy 6 ohm steady load with the active equalization provided by the BAF. This opens up amp choices.
Part 2
Audiophile opinions on the BAF device are kind of split. Not sure if its an even 50% like it, 50% don't like it, but you have the two camps. Why the difference? The room; its acoustic properties, and how the 801 (aka relationship destroyer) deals with it. There is a reason B&W no longer make the 801. You need a dedicated room. Its makes no business sense.
801 matrix owners today (there are many out there and some reading here), that could NOT make the BAF work with the speaker; or who never used it, or even heard of the BAF before; are taxing their amps way more to make bass with the 801.
************ SECOND ROOM ***********************
A backwards seven with the main section 20 -23. This room is the "top of the Seven". It is separated from the bottom portion of the Number 7 shape (12 x 24) by a heavy curtain. It is also adjacent to my other room of which the door is left open. The back of the room has the stairs that go upstairs. One of the pictures has me standing on the stairs. All this makes for a much bigger room as far as sound volume and space is concerned. An in progress dedicated listening space that accommodates different speaker types.
03/31/2011 Dynamic, ESL, Planar IMO - We listen to our rooms. The speakers in the rooms are like boats. They both represent freedom to me. A 12 foot aluminum boat is perfect for a small lake and your favourite person. But out on the ocean or a big body of water The water/boat analogy in this case is like your room and speakers. Water waves versus sound waves. There is no perfect boat and no perfect speaker. This is because all our rooms are different and the room is the big rock in this audiophile game. Speakers represent the last piece in the audio chain. Their sound represents everything in your audio chain especially the room, before it reaches your ears. Every piece will have an effect on what is heard. This IMO is why it is so important to have a good source. The last few years my speakers have remained intact and I have concentrated on improving the source components. Each time I improved the source my main speakers improved as well. This tells me they are not a bottleneck and I have not yet reached their limits.
Dynaudio Acoustics BM12s - Two of these in my Quad Room B .
Two of these in Room B - 18hz - 60 hz.
4th order Linkwitz- Riley crossovers have a really steep slope past 60 hz.
On paper this made them look like a really good match for the Quad 57's; but how does such a small box make 18 hz. They have class a/b amps are 4 ohms.
I brought them home and demoed them. Very Punchy, Clean and they go really low. A great match with the raised Wayne Picquet Quad 57's. They are placed under the speakers - see pic in my virtual system.
Quad 57 Wayne Picquet rebuild with Music Reference RM10 AMP
Quad ESL-57 - Wayne Picquet Panels Partnered with the amp that was designed for them - Music Reference RM10 by Roger Modjeski.
With certain music magic for me.
8/20/2012 These Quad 57 speakers were designed and put out before I was born. The parts inside which I have replaced like the EHT modules were stamped 1971. Fourteen years after they originally came out. The panels themselves are only a few years old. They were rebuilt by Wayne Piquet in Florida. The normal music presentation for stock Quad 57s is as if listening to music from the first row of a balcony. If using stock feet a 2 or 4 x 4 piece of wood or brick under the rear leg angling the speaker downwards toward you actually raises this image. This may be a more realistic presentation in your room.
Check out my review. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?rspkr&1309018315&&&/Quad-57-
801 Active Monitors - Currently Stored
Currently Stored - "Winnie the Pooh" of speakers. Relationship Destroyer. Owned since 1994. Serious Sound Pressure Speaker can re-create an event in your room when positioned and driven properly. Mothers milk bass. During my time with them have used Solid State and Tube amps (Push Pull and OTL's). In comparison to the DM70 Electrostatic, If the 801 and DM70 were cowboys. The 801s are wearing black hats and the DM70 white ones.
801 Matrix S2 and S3 - Designed by John Bowers to be Active Monitors with use of the BAF and become a sixth-order Butterworth alignment. Without the high pass filter they are a vented fourth-order design, specifically in a Bessel alignment. "Fourth-order" is an engineering term that refers to all vented and passive-radiator speakers; sealed boxes are "second order."
From Stereophile (re: S2) "Higher in frequency, the response trend (averaged across a 30 degrees lateral window on the tweeter axis) is basically flat, but with a slight excess of energy in the presence region and a corresponding lack of energy in the top octave. All things being equal, this will make the speaker both a little too revealing of recorded detail and somewhat fussy when it comes to the quality of source and amplification components, just as LL noted in his auditioning comments."
Some of the changes. S3 used a different crossover than s2 - less component count. Better isolated mid and hf boards. Bass inductors with an iron dust core . Rotating midrange tweeter head assembly was permanently connected. (from 3 to 4 pin delivering separate ground signals to midrange and tweeter) Magnetic fluid cooling of the tweeter (like the 800 matrix) - the reason the apoc protection eliminated (circuits needed for this were also removed)
In nearfield very revealing of room setup, system components - SS and Tube, cabling, TT drive systems, poorly recorded music. They reveal all the flaws of the recording.
Depending on your audio hobby objectives this can be a good thing or a bad thing...
See picture of the Bass Alignment Filter.
B&W Electrostatic DM70 John Bowers / JansZen Hybrid
B&W DM70 Electrostatic Continental Hybrid Speaker Clockwork Orange Movie The late John Bowers (RIP) favorite speakers. JansZen ESL - 500hz and up. B&W Woofer - 500hz and down. Require a large room - elevated to ear level and a good distance from the front wall. Very refined midrange - muscular bass. Non-directional with a large sweetspot.
n]Designed in 1970. No cost or time constraints during the development. From what I can make out they were discontinued due to costs involved. Version One - Power handling 25 watts at all frequencies. Version Two - The later DM70 Improved, which looked identical, is suitable for amplifiers of 25-100w, but seems otherwise identical.
500hz crossover - ESL panel can not be overdriven and is nondirectional.
ESL Panel was provided by JansZen. Sensitivity is 17 watts into nominal impedance required to produce a sound level of 95 dB. at one metre at 400 Hz Double fuse protection C and CA versions.
Modded Acoustat Model 3 - Used In Shared Space Upstairs
Finally hooked up the Model 3's to the OTL's in a temporary fashion.
These are in our living area shared space Custom modded Model 3;s. They have rebuilt interfaces. Unique granite bases with integrated spikes that weigh 80 lbs. Burl Oak Veneer facing and the inside is filled with small sand bags.
Technics SP10 MKII with 2nd ET2 High Pressure Manifold
March 11, 2013 Update
Next version ? will replace the current black base plinth with a more aesthetic one.
Pet Project - Has taught me a lot about resonances and vibrations. SP10MKII Version Five Solid Stainless Steel Legs have threads at both ends and are bolted into the sp10 top plate as well as the solid plinth/platform. The armpod is bolted into the plinth. The plinth is then isolated by the AT-616 Pneumatic footers. 19 lb Solid Brass Pod 1 inch Diameter Solid Stainless Steel.
Previously I had the SP10 MKII in a heavy 7 layer plinth. Birch ply + one mdf layer. This SP10MKII came from a private studio.
This is the second ET2 I own and it is a high pressure manifold
Jean Nantais Custom turntable. Includes: 100 Pounds - Veneered - Two Tonearm Plinth Lenco L75 motor and top plate rebuilt to his standards. Reference model spindle, bearing thrust plate. Bonded Metacrylate mat Bearpaw footers. IEC outlet.
************ SOME NOTABLE MEMORIES **************************
For me some notable equipment. Currently stored or sold-indicated as such.
McAlister OTL 195
OTL195 There is a review contained in my system thread. In comparisons to good Solid State Class A and Push Pull amps they were like driving a 911 but you are limited to 1st gear when pushed. Very fast and punchy. But lack the bass that push pull deliver on. Get the bass right and everything else comes into place. These amps are designed around the needs of Acoustats. My Acoustats are in the shared room upstairs. I no longer own the OTL's.
Fidelity Research FR64s
Gimbal Pivot Arm. I found excellent build quality and a nicely implemented antiskate system. I also found a low frequency resonance that accentuated the bass. A warmer sounding tonearm. It was in my second room with the second ET2 not the ET 2.5. Whenever I started a session with the FR64s it was always nice. But curiosity would always prevail and I would switch over to the ET2. It would always remain there. This happened more times than I can remember. I am not a tonearm collector so it was sold to raise funds for another project. I am in agreement with what Cartridge designer Johnathan Carr had to say about it. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1243274438&openusid&zzJcarr&4&5#Jcarr
Modded VPI's
Thread driven TNT and a JMW 12 using rollerblock jrs. SOLD
Acoustat Spectra 33
Acoustat Spectra 33
Eminent Technology LFT 8a
Set up in midfield - soundstage at both sides of the room. So the speaker shown is the left or the right one depending on side of room you are on. Excellent Magnetic Planar Hybrid Woofer Speaker. Very natural sounding but difficult to drive.
****************AUDIOPHILE FUN + ET 2 TONEARM MODS ************** ****
From here down are some inserts from past audiophile fun.
Also contained here is important information on the ET2, 2.5 tonearms as well as some of the mods I have done to them. If any questions on any of them let me know. No Holds Barred tonearm. User needs to be mechanically inclined and be willing to read ET2 manual instructions for proper setup of this tonearm. If bought on the used market a friend that is familiar with the tonearm for proper inspection of condition is important.
Goldilocks and the Three Turntables . See Sept 20, 2019 post comment below on my virtual system for findings / details.
Belt Drive (converted to thread) VPI TNT Idler - Jean Nantais Custom 100 Lb Direct Drive - SP10MKII When compared in the same room(nearfield), with same gear, tonearm and cartridge, same time, differences are revealed. Out into rooms on their own, this is not as noticeable as our ears deal with different room acoustics. ymmv
OTL VERSUS PUSH PULL Tube Amps
In room comparison.
Thread Drive Comparisons
2010 testing out different threads. Fabricland became a favorite place of mine.
ET 2 Tonearm Proper Bass Management - ATB
According to Bruce
My ears agree
ET 2.0 Manifold Before and After Cleaning
Pictures courtesty of a friend.
ET2 VTA Block Destroyed
Thigpen Genius showing VTA Block rack of teeth and worm gear. This one was abused. If you are buying a used one ensure the rack of teeth seen in the pic are uniform with no wear and baldspots. This is an indicator that the VTA block was misused and rigidly tightened stripping the teeth. The bolt was tightened to a point that shattered the CF.
ET 2.0 2.5 Tonearm VTA Block Torquing Procedure
VTA Block - Ensure each of the four bolts is torqued equally or the patented VTA system will be off. This procedures takes just minutes and should be done off table or you will throw your alignment off. Once bolts are torqued the manifold housing can be mounted to the pillar post and the rest of the setup completed.
ET 2.0, 2.5 Tonearm Magnesium versus Aluminum Armtubes
Mag - MC Cartridges Aluminum - MM Catridges The middle ground is the Carbon Fibre arm tube. MM and MC.
ET 2.0, 2.5 Custom Aluminum Joint - aka GOOSENECK
Black one is the stock one. Sourced from Richard Krebs
ET Tonearm Counterweight Bolt Mod
Get a longer counterweight bolt especially if you like to use heavier cartridges. The stock ET2 bolt is on the right. The longer bolt weighs a bit more, holds more lead weights and allows you to use less lead further out on the I Beam. This provides for the highest vertical mass which is really important with the ET2 as it has medium to high horizontal mass. a 4 - 1 horizontal to vertical ratio. In my system higher vertical mass means cleaner, less resonant, overall better bass. The brass rings are meant for balancing only. I prefer to use Blue Tack for this purpose.
Et2 Leaf Spring Mods Single, Double, Triple
General Cartridge Guideline
Single Leaf Spring - High compliance
Double - Medium Compliance
Triple - Low compliance
ET2 Pedestal Custom 3
Solid Brass Arm Pod
Koaltar Tweak
my pal 6 months, 79 lbs.
Kitty Tweak Bengal
a real sweetheart
RCA Victor Dog
I introduce Lucky. He is a mixed breed Jack Russell/Chihuahua mix breed. He will be acting as the Victor RCA dog,
The original Victor RCA dog.
He was named Nipper and was born in 1884 in Bristol, England, and died in September 1895. He was a mixed-breed dog and probably part Jack Russell Terrier, although some sources suggest that he was a Smooth Fox Terrier, or "part Bull Terrier". He was named Nipper because he would bite the backs of visitors' legs.
Hi Richard - ok some matrix 800 impressions coming with a few interesting pics ?
Richard if I may say - imo you are a true and authentic vinyl only connoisseur. You don't even own a cd player ! Of all the audio friends that I know in person and virtually, you are the only one that falls into this category. If you ever decide to post a virtual system on audiogon - call it "Mr. Analog" It is for this reason and a couple of others - that I had that "digital" music sent to you. I am really looking forward to your impressions.... After you have managed to borrow a cd player :^)
Banquo363 ... took 5 guys 9 hours to assemble the 800's!
Hi Banquo - does that not sound sort of like a punchline to another joke ? the one about a lightbulb comes to mind.
from the review
800 Setup from Stereophile Review. If you're the type of person who loves to tinker with your car every weekend, and don't mind having to remove half of the engine in order to change the plugs, you'll love deciphering the 800 owner's manual and assembling these monsters. But if you're like me, this could be a big pain. The 800 comes in six large crates, with no indication of which to unpack first or where anything is supposed to go. The manual is confusing, and often incorrect, which may make you question your ability to read English ("this screw just doesn't fit into that hole!"). Luckily, in my case, Victor Goldstein (consultant to B&W), Chris Browder (Executive Vice President of B&W Loudspeakers of America), as well as two members of our musicians' listening group (Al Merz, Ed Kelly) came to the rescue. Victor had set up several pairs of 800s before these, and knew pretty much what to do, while the rest of us looked on in utter disbelief. I recommend that at least two people be available when you assemble your 800s (lifting the midrange/tweeter and upper woofer modules into place requires a combination of brute strength and finesse); better yet, let your dealer do all the work. It took five of us the better part of a day (nine hours) to unpack, assemble, and position my review pair.
Sounds like a classic case of too many chefs in the kitchen. One guy did all the work and four of them watched and bumped into one another. What is an EVP of the company going to know about bolting his own speakers together ? And as far as what the B&W consultant did - like any typical consultant he took his own way - meaning he didn't do what it says to do in the manual. For those reading that are consultants please don't feel slighted with these remarks. I have been a consultant and managed other consultants for over 25 years.
(lifting the midrange/tweeter and upper woofer modules into place requires a combination of brute strength and finesse);
From my own experience. This is asking for a lot of trouble.
My build for the first 800 took about 4 hours (an afternoon). With familiarity and some lessons learned, about two 1/2 -three hours to do the second - I didn't time it. I got help from one person to lift off the wood crate covers - a similar exercise to lifting the cartons that new appliances come with - i.e. dishwasher. You are basically left with the speaker parts bolted into the bottom crate piece like this.
The bolts used to hold them stable in the crates are the same bolts used to put them together. Simple and brilliant.
I would say one additional person needs to be there to lend a helping hand when needed. Otherwise one person does the build on the "floor".
Stereophile - The 800 comes in six large crates, with no indication of which to unpack first or where anything is supposed to go. The manual is confusing, and often incorrect, which may make you question your ability to read English
The manual is correct. My boxes are labelled A-1-2-3, B-1,2,3 The 800 build is illustrated very clearly in the owners manual too.....with pictures! You build each of them laid down on a protective floor drivers pointing sideways.
again not doing this....
(lifting the midrange/tweeter and upper woofer modules into place requires a combination of brute strength and finesse)
In pictures the 800's bases always seemed like they were made of wood to me. They are actually very heavy cast alloy filled with Fibercrete - the same stuff the midrange head is made of on the 801 and 802 matrix. - they provide big time weight leverage on the bottom allowing two normal sized people to lift the whole 800 fairly easy into place - after it is assembled - on the floor.
Ah....the life of professional reviewers. ok - I will admit when I read the review; being just the lowly hobbyist that I am - I became jealous that the reviewer got a ticket to fly to England to see the factory.
sidenote imo - a calm frame of mind is always required before assembling anything. There are some people that enjoy bolting things together. Believe it or not this type of activity has a calming effect on me as I have spent most of my life working at a job where I was in front of a laptop and or groups of people. this is a nice change of pace, being on your own - all mechanical. I have realized I am not bad at figuring out how to put stuff together as long as when its bolted together I'm done. FINITO. My big problem are the finishing touches. The little things like moldings and trim in a room as an example. My wife seems to think these things are really important. My music room - I don't have her pushing me to finish it. This is also the main reason my rooms will NEVER EVER look like some of the really nice rooms at Audiogon. I get it working for me - then I just get too busy listening. Maybe this will change later on but I doubt it as I have other hobbies that take up my time as well.
They're very funky looking.
the urban dictionary for funky = "different but cool/nice" So thanks Banquo. I agree with you. I think I have a track record of being attracted to "funky" things?
The more involved I get with the 800's the more fascinating they are to me. They were a 2 1/2 year development project for Bowers and Wilkins.
Dr. Dibbs actually discusses them in the recent September 2013 Stereophile interview.
I'm excited to experience Dr. Dibbs implementation of the 800's double woofers (one high, one low) in my room. I have heard a system that had separate 4 external subs implemented before. But they were all on the floor - all over the place. We all know that bass drivers excite the room with really long waves; requiring the 801 matrix speaker as an example imo to be placed on one of the room nodes if the room is medium sized; a bigger room is able to dissipate these long waves better but it is still better if the 801's can be on one of the nodes in any room as I have found you will need "much less " room treatment allowing the room to remain "alive" and not too damped. So as far as the 801's go this usually means a dedicated music room or no WAF. Just not consumer friendly enough as most rooms are shared; the main reason IMO these British 801's are not made anymore. PITY
Another thing that is not obvious from pics of 800's on the internet. The 800 upper bass cabinet is heavier than the lower one. This is by design because the upper woofer doesn't have the floor to help damp and deal with the bass waves, like the lower woofer does in the bottom cabinet. When you start assembling you assume the heavier cabinet goes on the bottom - wrong. Well they only bolt together one way so no worries.
Do the 800's double woofers - one extremely high - one low - really "cancel or smooth out" each of their bass waves in the room, leaving purer bass notes and less resonance; therefore resulting in clearer and musical - music ? I'm gonna find out. I also have a 19 year reference point to compare it to.
I solved the concerns with my wife. I made her part of the sale process for the other speakers. her role is to take cash or cheque from the sale to the bank and keep 10 per cent for herself. Its important as well to make sure she sees speakers going - out - the door. or least close to the front door on their way out. I told her 3 or maybe 4 speakers will end up leaving to pay for the 800's. She was still not expecting those cartons - oh well :^(
the 6 crates containing the parts and cabling to build up Matrix 800. 19 years with the 801s3. 801's will be parked for a bit before any decisions get made. I can post pics and impressions as I go through the 800 setup. The spectra's in the pic (covered in plastic)are awaiting pickup by the new owner. He says he needs to make some room for them first :^)
My speaker boxes arrived in Canada last Tues 15th - day after Cdn. Thanksgiving. I am kept in the dark until Friday when I am told the shipment has been referred for examination by Canadian Customs next week. What a way to wreck a weekend....
Thanks for that info Richard. Here's some info I dug up from a photocopy of the Spectra owners Manual.
"A breakthrough in understanding the rules of the electrostats drive transformer (interface) suggested a "variable area" solution - while still satisfying Acoustats demand for efficiency and low-end response. The result the mk2100 series interface allows us to implement a variable geometry electrostat changing its effective width as a function of frequency. Called Symmetric Pair Electrically Curved Tranducer (Spectra) Each speaker of the mirror pair contains a narrow line source sector operating at all frequencies (bass,mid,high) Adjacent sectors handle mid and low frequencies. Remaining panel area reproduces bass only. ".....uses full area for maximum bass impact, and progressively narrower areas as frequency increases"
yes very different from the model 3.
Warranty
We are proud to offer this unique warranty due to the virtual indestructible nature of Acoustat panels. Acoustat guarantees our electrostatic panels against defective materials and workmanship for the life of the product.
It goes on to say the interface is warrantied for 10 years.
This warranty to my understanding is the reason when Acoustat became European the new Italian owners could no longer offer them in North America. They couldn't provide this warranty.
On the Spectras the stator windings are cut into vertical sections. These are fed in sequence by a time delay array consisting of, from memory, a LC network. Lots of extra components in the signal path. It also uses, again from memory, an oscillator and step up TX to generate the EHT. Both of these changes make it significantly different to the model 3. Don't know if there are any changes to the main audio TX's
Hi Dan - other than those sub zero days that occur a couple times every winter - the worst weather here is probably when it rains and is near the freezing mark 0 c or 32 f. Typical of Jan/Feb temps here in Southern Ontario give or take a few degrees either way. Black ice sets in. Toronto area drivers have never learned how to drive in that stuff and are too impatient to wait for the salt trucks to do their thing. The result - real bumper cars using your own vehicle with those parked on the side of the road.
I don't like anything near or in my ears either. Even with my cell phone if its going to be a longer call I will find a quiet spot and use the speaker phone. Have always had headphones but the first year our fraternal twins were born I was forced to use them alot. Even though the sound itself was good - I have never sat in the "middle" of performers doing a performance so couldn't get used to it. All live performers I have heard whether in a small club or larger venue - even studio albums (Roger Waters Amused to Death an exception) have always been in front of me usually elevated on some of type of stage so they can be seen and the sound projects better; or I am sitting in a type of bowl. Thats the stock Quad 57 presentation. Like you are on the first floor balcony of a performance. Raising the back leg of a '57 with a piece of wood "raises" the presentation. Its a little freaky when you first do it because you are pointing the speakers down more and the sound is going up! Regardless the performers are always in front of me. I shoot for a presentation where they are elevated just a little. For me the experience of listening with good ESL's in nearfield is sort of like the quality headphone experience but being in the first 5-10 rows and nothing touching my ears.
Hi Dan. great to hear from you! thank u. I wish you were not so far out on the west coast. Wait a minute.... in another month when winter starts settling in here I will probably wish I was out there.
Thanksgiving dinner was nice , even though our son is away playing Junior Hockey and living with a billet family. I got to do two runs with my daughter home from university - this was really special.
prior to the first run.
"hey dad check these out" (her new ear phones she runs with) "they do bass"
they had these little plastic tunnels attached to them and go deeper into the ear drum. :^(
I give up..... I am going to try to take some for myself while I can.
Whats coming in is part of it. Its stuck in customs !
So much for free trade Dan between Canada and the US !
RichardKrebs - I wonder if the "Hi Fi" effect you describe is an artefact of the delay network used in the Spectra's. A lot of extra components are used to create this.
Hi Richard - a busy few days days here with Canadian Thanksgiving. Thats a very interesting comment. Are those extra components in the interface itself or part of the panel design - or both? Its a big advantage being able to compare in your own room. I'm willing to bet I could have improved things (closed the gap) with placement and the room is no where near complete. But as this is a culling exercise to raise cash, my objective was to go as far as I needed to go, to come to a comfortable decision for myself.
One of the friends I mentioned earlier interested in the Spectra came for a listen. Long story short - he had them cranked playing at levels I wouldn't dare with my wife in the house. Classic rock, Classical, and Jazz. He was happy and the Spectras are now sold leaving me - in the words of Phil on Duck Dynasty "happy, happy, happy", as I have now raised 1/2 of the cash I need. Cheers
Chris. I wonder if the "Hi Fi" effect you describe is an artefact of the delay network used in the Spectra's. A lot of extra components are used to create this.
Acoustat Impressions - Modded Model 3 versus Spectra 33 A little background on both.
Modded Model 3 - (the smaller older guy with mods)
The model 3's have 3 same ESL panels - hence their name. Mine were already modified with someone else's passion when I acquired them. The interface internals are modified. Cardas binding posts and an IEC outlet on the outside the only clue. Frame and base mods include real burl oak veneer on the panel portion below the actual ESL panel, 80 lb granite bases with integrated spikes, as well as extensive use of small sand bags inside the panel frame area. I discovered the sand bags by accident. I took the panel apart from the base one day to move to another floor and one of the bags fell out ! Quite ingenious these little sand bags. In addition to this they came with heavy wood crates enclosing their original factory boxes. Somebody went to a lot of trouble here, and it wasn't the guy I bought them from. I have a feeling about this because he sold them to me "fairly cheap". Funny how this works. Maybe a lesson here ? I think so... Make sure your wife/spouse knows the "real" market value of your gear in case you have an accident and disappear. An audiophile nightmare waiting to happen? Model 3 interfaces also come with a HF Tuning dial knob to adjust both or one of the speakers for room acoustics.
Tidbit I have never owned an Apple product but here is what I think is cool picture of Steve Jobs (RIP) of Apple with his Model 3's.
Spectra 33 - (the younger, larger kid on the block)
The Spectra 33 are the most current Acoustat version before the company was sold overseas to the the Italian firm. They represent different, newer technology. Mine have non-stock heavier bases. Spectras have an indicator hole at the top of the each speaker at one end. This side of the speaker represents the HF end and needs to go on the inside when doing setup. This is required for tighter imaging. Guess what putting the indicator hole on the outside does to the size of the performers singing ? I wonder if any reviewers had the indicator hole on the outside ? The hole is in between the top screws holding the panels together and can be easily missed. The Spectra 33 interface has a bypass toggle on back of the interface to hook up an Acoustat sub if desired - to handle 100 hz and down. You flick the toggle one way or the other to engage and disengage it. From the fellow that rebuilds them "this is a cheap switch and should be avoided as it will degrade the sound" If the sub is not used they are in full range mode which should be good to 30 hz from what the manual says. I have always used them full range without sub.
Impressions...
The Spectra's can fill a larger room a little easier as they have more panel area. They go a little lower than the Model 3's confirming their 30 hz claim to me. The model 3's are not far behind in the bass. The larger Spectra panel area also means a little more efficiency for your amp as efficiency goes up the bigger and more panels with Acoustat. When you stand up the sound is still all there with the Spectra 33 due to the panel height. With the Model 3's you really do need to stay sitting. When you stand up its like you just put some plugs in your ears with the model 3's. But I tend to listen sitting down anyway not walking around. The Spectra 33's would work better if having a group of people over in a larger room. I find the Spectra 33 a little more "Hi Fi" sounding than the model 3's. By "Hi Fi" I mean they bring more attention to themselves, and their capabilities versus the Model 3's. The Model 3's make me just forget that they are there and I get involved more with the music itself. This is good because they are not good looking speakers. Overall I find the Spectra 33 a little less coherent than the Model 3's. For my personal needs and the way I listen to the Acoustats - the Model 3 make more sense for me. So will be selling the Spectra 33...a couple friends that showed previous interest emailed. Cheers
Richardkrebs 1.... Very high impedence at LF resonance. I have measured mine and don't remember the exact number but it was around 100 ohms. This can be problematic for some amps.
Dover One thing you have to bear in mind is that tube amps that use output transformers are going to have phase shifts that vary with frequency. All transformers have phase shifts in the audio band. Therefore when you find a tube amp to run with a speaker, particularly harder to drive or those with varying impedances such as electrostatics, the results are difficult to predict.
Rk your actual measurements of 100 ohms confirm what the the maker of my OTL's has said about the very high ohm requirement for proper bass with Acoustats. His measurements mirrored yours. This difficult power requirement is one of the reasons he included an Acoustat when designing them. He has also owned the Italian Hybrid Acoustats - the company that took over Acoustat before it ended up in China and now defunct I believe. I can also say now after 7-8 months that the OTL's just play around with the easier load 801's. Like a big engine car just cruising. The sound is immediate and direct sounding.
The speakers coming in if all goes as plan will replace my 801's that I have owned for 19 years. As they are a remote purchase with shipping I am very reluctant and a little nervous about talking about them until they are safely through my door and set up. I don't want to ginch anything. They happen to be 93 db.
Dover - Ct0517 your Classe Audio is not state of the art by any stretch.
Dover - You can't go making statements like this without qualifiers, and here is an example of why based on your other post.
Dover - After I posted I recalled a discussion with one of the ET dealers in Canada many years ago. The early ET speakers required amplifiers that have good voltage swing, 100w into 16 ohms. High current amplifiers do not swing voltage. So Krells could not drive the ET's whereas the Perreaux's, being more of a voltage amplifier with less current, were very good. Conversely with the early Apogees the reverse was true. A very graphic example of the dangers of using the same amplifier to compare speakers with different electrical requirements.
I had fantastic results with the ET speakers and the Classe CA300. In conversation with Bruce Thigpen - he told me about 5 years ago that he had a CA300 and had excellent results with it on his LFT8a Planar Speakers as well. So one could say that the CA300 matched with LFT8a speakers is a very good thing for this speaker/amp combo. fwiw - I consider my classe CA300 a nice amp. Its a backup amp these days and I highly recommend it as an amp to try out if anyone comes across one.
Look forward to your shoot out results. Yeah it is always a problem getting the gear into the room unnoticed. Good luck
HF Dover. I currently use Obbligato Gold premium caps. Better are available but budgetary limits prevent me from using them.
Money permitting, on the try out list would be Jensen AL foil and Mundorf Silver/Gold PIO. But top of the list would be Duelund Cast PIO.
BTW. If I owned early Soundlabs or ML CLS speakers, they would be subject to a complete interface/ PS rebuild and frame replacement. I would only keep the TX/s and the panels. While both of these brands use superior bits than Accoustat, there is still much room for improvement and IMO their frames are just too flimsy.
been travelling with the wife trying to score brownie points as we head into the serious listening seasons here (fall/winter) We have been staring at the stunning leaf colors of central ontario as we travel. I even told her I would paint her nails the same colors if she likes - to score some points. :^) After 35 years in this hobby I am presently at a loss trying to think up ideas of how to sneak those speaker boxes down to the basement without her noticing.... any ideas appreciated ?
thanks for the posts RK/Dover will review later tonight/morn as I catch up and respond.
Acoustat shootout coming up - Modded Model 3's vs Spectra 33. Cheers
Richardkrebs - In your list of must do mods for the Acoustats, what capacitors do you recommend to be used in the rebuild ?
Ct0517 After I posted I recalled a discussion with one of the ET dealers in Canada many years ago. The early ET speakers required amplifiers that have good voltage swing, 100w into 16 ohms. High current amplifiers do not swing voltage. So Krells could not drive the ET's whereas the Perreaux's, being more of a voltage amplifier with less current, were very good. Conversely with the early Apogees the reverse was true. A very graphic example of the dangers of using the same amplifier to compare speakers with different electrical requirements. In my view the most compelling successful systems are where one has found a speaker they like, and then trialled as many amps as possible to optimise the sound, ensure the selected speakers are being driven properly and that the selected amps have plenty of headroom.
H F Dover Yes agree, the Cast Graphite silver resistors are better than the standard. That's why I use them. But with a little work, they can be improved further.
We will have to disagree on the alleged merits of the Proac Tablettes. Each is entitled to their opinion.
Ct0517, As far as I recall, the more panels, the easier the Acoustats are to drive. I cant comment on the electrical requirements, but can only comment on what Ive heard. 1+1's The only 1+1s I heard that were ok to listen to were with the Perreaux 2150B's run in mono. Effortless sound, plenty of drive, but everything sounded oversized and waffly. The system made everything sound the same, even with different front ends, so therefore must have been coloured. 2+2's EAR 509/519's - These drive the Acoustats ok, but I find these perfunctoral to listen to, lacking musical flow. The sound is dynamic but individual notes lack body and natural decay. Harmonics are truncated. Think ARC power amps, lots of raw wham but lacking subtlety and timing. Comparing the EARs to the Quicksilver 8417 monos on the CLS the Qs were more transparent, better placement in space whereas the EARs had good placement within the soundstage, but individual instruments were like cardboard cutouts, flat. Would not used the Qs on Acoustats though. Perreaux's - you can hear the mosfets compressing, not recommended Plinius monos - warmer and smoother and more effortless but perhaps not as transparent as the tubes. Model 3's Sumo Class A - very sweet sound, reasonably transparent, but not suited for louder levels. ( There was a very rare Perreaux pure class A amp produced here that I heard as well but it went very gluggy very quickly as it ran hot ). ARC D115, very dynamic, plenty of drive, transparency quite good but a bit thin sounding. Plinius mono's similar to the Sumo but not quite as transparent.
One thing you have to bear in mind is that tube amps that use output transformers are going to have phase shifts that vary with frequency. All transformers have phase shifts in the audio band. Therefore when you find a tube amp to run with a speaker, particularly harder to drive or those with varying impedances such as electrostatics, the results are difficult to predict.
A number of the 1+1's and 2+2's here were home-brew and there was a suspicion that many of the DIY folk did not angle the panels correctly when stacking. Many rooms in NZ are only 8ft stud height which I think also becomes an issue with stacked Acoustats. In some cases deflectors at the top of the panels can help. Space above the speakers is a consideration as well.
Clearly from Richardkrebs response he is in agreement with my comments the Acoustats lack speed, resolution and are prone to waffly bloated base in standard form. Basically he is saying that the only components worth retaining are the panels and transformers - the rest must be rebuilt with upgraded components, new frames, redesigned power supplies and interfaces. I would also add that the OFC panels and medallion kits are a must.
Richardkrebs has not mentioned that old chestnut - oversized images. - Ella Fitzgerald with a 10ft mouth. Whilst impressive for some that is not how she sounded in real life. The Model 3 are better in this regard, image sizes are a not so inflated.
10-06-13: Richardkrebs The fact that all of these mods are clearly audible implies that the panels and audio TX's themselves are intrinsically transparent.
I would question this logic. This argument implies is that if one were to put a Koetsu Onyx Gold on a $500 Project Turntable, and got a better sound, then the Project TT is transparent. The $500 Project may well show some of the benefits of a Koetsu Onyx Gold but it will not show anything like the full potential of the cartridge.
The question has to be asked - is it worth putting all this time and money into a 30 year old product with such shortcomings in standard form, or are you better to start with a better speaker. I find both the original Martin Logan CLS and the Soundlabs to be considerably more transparent and less bloated in standard form. The CLSs the most transparent, the Soundlabs down a little in transparency but with fuller extension down low than the CLS. The Soundlabs I have heard with solid state can go quite hard, I get the impression they sound better with tube amps with the appropriate headroom.
PS Richardkrebs I am using the Duelund CAST Graphite/Silver resistors in my Tannoy crossovers, they are audibly smoother and dig deeper than the standard and would recommend these as the first point in crossover upgrades. Steen Duelund is on record that when upgrading crossovers he believes the resistors should be the first port of call before using his capacitors.
PPS Ct0517 your Classe Audio is not state of the art by any stretch. The older David Reich designed Classe DR9 with capacitor upgrades would be a better option in my view. As you are in Canada trying one of these would be worthwhile. I believe that some folk monod these as well, but not sure on driving low impedances in this form. The 805's you mentioned are low efficiency monitors with fairly polite uninvolving sound, they are not highly resolving compared to the Proac Tablettes, Ensemble PA50's, Pawel Acoustics etc. and this is not system dependent - I have heard them many times. The Silver 30's are much better if you must have B&W.
The problems with Acoustats are manifold and revolve around 4 topic categories
1.... Very high impedence at LF resonance. I have measured mine and don't remember the exact number but it was around 100 ohms. This can be problematic for some amps.
2.... a) The components they originally used are decidedly average. I'm not talking about the panels or the audio TX's here. It is the support bits like the treble adjust resistor that need work. This would be better suited feeding a heater rather than a speaker. Last year I changed this out for Deulund carbon power resistors to good effect. ALL other caps and resistors need similar substitution. b) At your own risk, get rid of the inline fuse. c) Very much at your own risk, get rid of the anti saturation 1 ohm power resistor. This is best done if you are using tube PA's with say 0.4 ohm output impedence or more. d) At your own risk the EHT supply needs to be filtered and have storage C added. The original multiplier caps are of poor quality and need to be replaced. e) Plus many other mods. The fact that all of these mods are clearly audible implies that the panels and audio TX's themselves are intrinsically transparent.
3.... The frames are floppy and need total replacement. If they are not exposed to sunlight I would throw away the speaker cloth as well.
4.... They are in a small group of stats that produce extended low end. It takes patience and in my case due to a small listening space, a lot of room treatment to get rid of what can be excessive wallowing bass.
I have measured the at listening chair response in my room. Plus or minus 1 db from 25 hz to 16 kHz. Plus or minus 3 db figures are below and above 20. I did not measure before room treatment but I suspect that the LF bump would have been huge and wide.
They can be brought up to speed, but it takes a lot of patience and a very large amount of component substitution, circuit reconfiguration and room work.
I thought you were rationalising your speakers hence the suggestion to try a high quality samll monitor such the the Proac Tablette. I think you would find this illuminating in gaining an insight into your other speakers.
Dover - a very old picture and direct from my virtual page.
I have used the excuse of saving them for my kids to fool - myself. In seriousness if I did not need the cash for what is about to come through the door I would have kept them. This exercise is indeed about rationalizing but also about taking something for myself "now" while I can. Being a little selfish, greedy.
Its no secret for anyone looking at my virtual page that my Wayne Picquet Quad 57's with the RM10 is my personal midrange reference combo. The RM10 amp has made adding "tweeters" unnecessary and it is impossible to damage them with this amp as it was designed for them. I am able to get 85-90db listening average levels with 100 db peaks with no problem in that large room; the volume knobs of the AI preamp range from 9 - 11 am with digital and 11 - 1pm for vinyl using the (420str/ET2 HPM combo).
To understand what I mean by my "midrange reference" consider this.
-3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3,
Simply speaking the 57's midrange represents 0 to me. All other speakers are judged by this. Some do more highs, some do more lows. If you notice - I am very clear to NOT say "better" highs , "better" lows. As this is where it gets to a personal level with one's own opinions, one's own room and gear and most important one's own hearing which this hobby is all about for me.
I have heard a number of Acoustats, they were quite popular here in the 80's. I agree with your comments on power and space in the room. I've heard 1+1's, 2+2's & 2's and 3's and Spectras on a variety of amps including - Perreaux 2150B's, monoed 2150B's, 3150B's, 5150B's, Plinus 250w mono's, Sumo Class A, EAR 509's, EAR 519's, Audio Research D115, Quicksilver 8417's, Counterpoint SA12 & 20, Rowland Model 1's monoed.
For the benefit of those reading which of these amps in your opinion work better with an Acoustat's power requirements assuming the panel material is tight, and they have been spaced properly? I believe this information would be useful to others. Otherwise you might as well be saying Amp A, Amp B, Amp C, ..... if you know what I mean.
