Audio Hobby Thoughts, Philosophy & System Description
Current Room Anchors - Room 1 and 2 active
Room 1 - Matrix 800's anchors - for creating that ..........Maxell Tape Effect.
Room 2 - (Adjacent to Room 1) - Quad 57 + two Dynaudio BM12s subs - Midrange reference
Room 3 - Acoustat Model 3 - Modded - upstairs - For imaging larger than life (literally speaking) - see last picture. Unfortunately is next to my wifes TV room. So it gets limited use.
Stored - B&W Electrostatic DM70c Continental - Wife calls them the washing machines. John Bowers called them his favorite speaker. Very interesting and very rare. Could anchor a room but they need special placement and lots of room. ESL portion needs to be 100% functional and at ear level or they will sound soft.
Room 2 is mostly digital, guests, and used for trialing used unplayed records before they make the queue for room 1. Room 1 has been called by my family as Dads Hole. I prefer panic room as it helped to raise my kids and stay married...so far.
Psychology Part
Music is critical to ones health and well being. I went through a couple stretches in life due to events without it and the results were not good. The goal for me to get lost in the music and have it transport me to that special place. Now whether you get there by a typical 2 channel home stereo with speakers, headphones, or other means is not important. Getting there is the important part.
Audiophile not.....
Have always been the type that if I frequent a room enough, a system usually ends up in there. My wife finally put an end to this, and allows me to do what I want in the full basement of our house.....so..... In this described virtual system, I have had Room A since 1994. Adjacent Room B is in the process of being finished, but I have been using it for listening for a few years now adding in room treatments as needed.
History
Like many others, have been at this audio hobby since I was about 13 when I was consciously aware of the gear versus the actual music relationship. I am now 55 and currently with two adjacent music rooms setup with different gear. Both rooms can do full orchestra symphonies with large dynamic swings. Getting Room B with the Quad 57's to do this was a challenge; but I was able to get it to work with the right amps and powered subs. The Quads require a very different room acoustic setup over the Matrix 800's in Room A.
I am a pure amateur, audiophile, music lover, past trombone player, and have never been part of the Audio Business as a manufacturer, dealer, distributor, or have any special interest relationships with any of these people. I consider myself a full time music lover, and part time audiophile; although I have friends that could argue this point. I have tried to upload pics and information here, that give a flavor of some of my audio journeys, and associated bouts of Audiophilia Nervosa. :^)
"Audio Heaven, is for Music Lovers - Audiophiles are never happy.
With that, in the real, authentic, Heaven; there is room, even for Audiophiles"
8^0
Living in the country
Having moved away from the city core in the 90's, I have found that audiophiles away from the cities, are in general, scare to find and or keep to themselves. Many of my audio friends are now remote, due to the distance between us; so only virtual communications are possible most of the time.
The negative aspects of Isolation aside; one good aspect of living in the country is the clean power and lack of noise and vibrations caused by traffic, trucks, etc...Once experienced and its effect on your listening, you become very aware of the multitude of audiophile products available as band aids, to cover, veil, but never eliminate these artifacts in densely populated areas.
I was born in the 60's so I grew up with Classic Rock, Beatles, etc... But I love all music, new music and Opera hits home with me. I played trombone in Jr and High school so the Bass Clef has a bias with me. Listen more now to the ladies crooning at me, Classical and Jazz with occasional Classical Rock; I think a well recorded full Orchestra Symphony with huge Dynamic swings has the most magic for me.
***** MAIN ROOM aka Panic Room, Dad's Hole, ....*****
I have had Room A since 1994. It has 3 dedicated lines 20, 20 , 15. This room is personal use. Room B is more for entertaining and spending time with friends.
Room A is much better insulated and isolated from my wife. As much as I would like to move the Matrix 800's to the larger Room B space to try them, it would probably just get me that much more trouble.
Room A and B are both located on a concrete poured floor. A has a an underpad and flat carpet on top. Spikes from gear stands and speakers are able to penetrate to the concrete with no problem ensuring a solid mechanical connection. The speakers are located 6 feet from the front wall with the room being 24 ft in length. Putting in the 800's over the 801's meant that some of the room treatments were able to be removed due to the 800's double woofers high and low. This is also one of the reasons I call them very room friendly.
1/4 inch 2 track machine. The three pictures attached. Top Left - known as two turntables. my machine being worked on Middle pic - 807 Top Right Pic. A picture of Roger Ginsley with a 48 track machine he is about to split into two 24 tracks. My Studer 807 is calibrated by him. He is also the one that makes the interconnects I use with it.
JC Verdier La Platine Vintage Granito Original Design
2012
http://www.jcverdier.com/ADSL/platineVintage.html
Just a delight to use. With its presentation, sends the message home that it is all amount the music. Effortless, seamless, but experience is needed is setting up the thread. A real Goldilocks scenario of the thread being too loose, too tight or just right. Different thread tensions alternate how the motor and platter work together and change the speed. The objective is to get the correct speed with as little effect from the motor. ....
Original design. Granito Model My version uses a motor only equipped for thread Granito base and solid aluminum billet armpod. The later newer motors are equipped now for belts too - but no one runs them this way that I know of. This decision was made imo to generate more sales as it is easier to setup. But imo the belt grip would play havoc with the motor / magnets marriage which was designed for thread. I would think that belt stretch and its physical changes with temp and humidity changes would also cause problems, and interfere with the natural braking action of the magnets. This is my opinion as mine is thread only. There is a greater learning curve involved with thread.
This is the only turntable I am aware of whose platter design includes both acceleration (inertia) and braking (natural forces from same pole magnets) to deal with the records behavior - going from soft to heavily modulated grooves. The motor design, like a marriage with the platter. Think of the childhood merry go rounds that once up to speed - even a little girl could keep them going. To understand how the motor and platter are like a marriage, one need only turn the motor off and the platter spins for 30 seconds with the thread attached. However cut the thread while the platter is turning, and the platter stops much quicker as the two magnets demonstrate their braking capability. Impressive to me is just the plain simplicity of design using physics to get the job done with a piece of string and magnets. I found it important in setup to have the thread positioned in a way that is the least intrusive on the platter; so as to allow the platter to not only do its job as designed; but to also provide the needed jolts as required from the motor to maintain speed stability.
In my opinion - you will know when you have set it up properly because you are able to turn the motor off and on and also deflect the thread with your finger - as the records plays - and not affect the music delivery to your ears. I base this when compared directly to 15 IPS Master Tape dubs. In testing for accuracy I run both simultaneously with one lagging 10 seconds behind the other and switch between the two - compensating for gain as tape is a high level signal. When the thread is setup in this fashion there is minimal stress put on it. The current silk thread I am using has recently passed the one year mark. Overall Big Sound from a small piece of thread.
Some facts Magnetic bearing design. Brass colored rings are big shielded permanent magnets; same magnet poles repelling each other. The result is "levitation" the space you see between them. No thrust bearing involved. A central spindle bathed in a special oil keeps them aligned. For me personally I did not know what TT bearing noise sounded like until I heard music on a TT without a physical bearing. The plinth is made of Granito. Granito is not real granite but a non-resonant material that looks and feels like granite. A limited edition model.
"Granito is a material composed by little pieces of marble of very different origin agglomerated inside a mold with cement. Machined and polished. The resonance of the plinth with its suspension is about 5Hz and it is well absorbed by the air cavities."
Mr. JC Verdier Note: Newer Platines are provided with a setup bearing. The manual is very clear on the setup bearing. It is just that - a setup tool only. COUNTERFEIT PLATINES Unfortunately there are non-authentic tables out there worldwide from 20 different counterfeiting makers. These tables are out there with people using them. If anyone is unaware of this, see the Platine Information on the JC Verdier website for more info.
The only advice I can give is when buying a Verdier Platine you should be careful to ensure it is a real Platine, especially if buying privately. If you already have one and have doubts, check with an authorized dealer or J.C. Verdier company in France to ensure it is authentic.
Custom Eminent Technology Model 2.5 for MC Carts
This is a custom build ET 2.5 Tonearm from Bruce Thigpen - A 19 PSI design.I am using the new Long I Beam. Weights are reduced by half and therefore the vertical inertia is higher - a goal of the design. The Aluminum Gooseneck was sourced from NZ. It was through Richard Krebs also an ET2 owner. I am using Single Shot WBT wiring, Aluminum mount plate. Magnesium armtube. Double Leaf Spring and damping trough. If you are an ET2 owner you know what I am talking about :^).... Advantages of the ET2 airbearing linear tracker tonearm - no VTF changes with VTA adjustment, no offset setup, antiskating and immunity to acoustic feedback, as it rides on film of air.
One shot wire. Run at 19 PSI. Damping trough with 1 cc of Oil. Lead weights at the very end of the I Beam.
VTA on the fly while the record plays and it doesn't change any parameters (VTF) like all other tonearms do. This is due to a patented VTA on the fly system. Have you ever noticed how with same thickness records....some can sound brighter, some bloated and some just right? When they press the records the different plants can have different standards. Records are then cut with varying angles.. even same thickness ones.
See ET2 Bass Management Below
Tonearm Wiring Loom - One shot WBT NextGen
2011 One shot wiring loom for the ET 2.5. WBT 0102 CU connectors. The design of the ET2 (2.5) allows for this wiring to be changed out in about 10 minutes. Silver and copper can be experimented with.
The PUMP ET2
Life Support for the ET2's. Timeter 3000 Medical Industrial Pump. The most important part of the ET2 arms setup. Industrial commercial grade medical pump. Its actually a patient respirator.
These have an hours counter and come up for sale cheaply on ebay. If you have space in your basement somewhere they are turnkey once set up.
I have tried large aquarium pumps, smaller medical pumps, compressors.
This Timeter Medical 50 psi pump has been customized to allow me to regulate air pressure coming out and send 19 psi to the ET2 tonearms. Another regulator with gauge at the arm allows me to accurately adjust for the PSI coming into the arm. Located in another room -cannot be heard in sound room when running.
The smoothness of air delivery is excellent. No resonance. The pump dumps/expels moisture like a car's AC. Have never seen a drop in the moisture collector; other than one incident when the pump outlet clogged with minerals from the moisture. I now soak the pump outlet in CLR for 2 hours every two months.
ET2 In Room Air Regulator & Filter
2nd Regulator and Filter on wall near the ET arm. Confirms and controls the 19 psi and also filters out moisture in line. Have never seen any moisture in this filter. This device lets me change the pressure going to the arm by just turning the top mounted knob. This regulator is mobile. It can be placed in my lap while the music is playing and pressure adjusted to hear how it affects the music delivery.
Audio Research DAC8
From a DAC only function perspective identical to the ARC REF DAC except the output stage is tubed on the REF. Interesting read. :^)
Owned many many years. Modded power supply box. Variable Gain for dealing with hot, and compressed source material - Digital and Analog. On the fly cartridge impedance loading. Used in ARC's hotrod mode. Direct output and bypass switch engaged. Amperex Bugle Boys.
Matrix 800
Unique one time all assault effort from B&W at a time when 2 channel was the focus. Smooth, musical yet still detailed. Room Friendly if you can believe it. Imagine 4 subs two high and two low pointed at you for 2 channel music. Each driver 2 woofer, mids, tweeter have their own crossover easily accessible from the back.
They were a 2 1/2 year study from Bowers & Wilkins under John Bowers (RIP). I have looked for a long time for a pair. The only time they become available are through owners going to a smaller condo (retiring or divorce).
All B&W 800 models that followed the Matrix series are the same only in model designation - 800. They are not a replacement or upgrade. They are a different build, design, objectives, sound. Post Matrix 800's are a smaller speaker system (require a sub for full range); they do have better WAF (more easily placed into a shared room with the wife)
800 matrix can be played at low and high levels with the right amp. 93db 2.83 volts/1m, Mine are Quad wired. They can be run on four separate amps if one desires as each driver has its own crossover.
Top and bottom woofers each excite a different set of waves. These waves cancel each other out. Thats the theory. My listening supports this. Smooth tight bass. It is quite something to experience since their size make you think they will over take the room. Also IMO each woofer works only half as much with four versus two for the desired SPL. All of this results in a very flexible listening position. All drivers are physically isolated with separate crossovers and Van Den Hul silver wiring from the factory. I run them with both tubes and Solid State. Krell and the modded Music Reference RM9.
Krell Amplifier Story My research found me talking with Dan D'Agostino who used matrix 800's as his reference speakers when he designed this era of Krell amps. Specifically the FPB series like my FPB600. On a dedicated 20 amp circuit with upgraded 20 amp power cord using Furutech Gold IEC.
RM9 Push Pull Tube Amp. Used to power Acoustat, 801, 800 speakers. WBT 0700 Connectors. KT88 output tubes. Hardwired for 4 ohm tap. Total Overhaul done April 2015
MATRIX 800 INSTALL
Installation
800 Series Bass Alignment Filter / Equalizer.
The graph shows the 801 matrix frequency response with and without the filter.
All 800 series B&W matrix speakers are an active design and are intended to be used with an equalizer by the designer (John Bowers) to achieve the best frequency response.
This attached graph was sent to me by B&W Europe years ago
It is the frequency plot for the 801 matrix "without" using the supplied Bass Alignment Filter. (not sure if it is 801 s2 or s3)
B&W England are the ones that drew the two dotted lines on the graph.
The 801 matrix speakers were designed to be used with the BAF. The speakers with BAF devices were shipped to original owners. But these devices became lost as speakers changed hands. They pop up on their own on ebay.
The two interesting parts.
Part 1
Not only does adding the BAF filter as designed give you a smoother response and allow the speaker to hit 20 hz. The BAF makes the 801 matrix speaker much more efficient. The ohm ratings can be seen on the right 8 - 6 - 4 - 2 ohms. The 801 matrix s2 and s3 are a very easy 6 ohm steady load with the active equalization provided by the BAF. This opens up amp choices.
Part 2
Audiophile opinions on the BAF device are kind of split. Not sure if its an even 50% like it, 50% don't like it, but you have the two camps. Why the difference? The room; its acoustic properties, and how the 801 (aka relationship destroyer) deals with it. There is a reason B&W no longer make the 801. You need a dedicated room. Its makes no business sense.
801 matrix owners today (there are many out there and some reading here), that could NOT make the BAF work with the speaker; or who never used it, or even heard of the BAF before; are taxing their amps way more to make bass with the 801.
************ SECOND ROOM ***********************
A backwards seven with the main section 20 -23. This room is the "top of the Seven". It is separated from the bottom portion of the Number 7 shape (12 x 24) by a heavy curtain. It is also adjacent to my other room of which the door is left open. The back of the room has the stairs that go upstairs. One of the pictures has me standing on the stairs. All this makes for a much bigger room as far as sound volume and space is concerned. An in progress dedicated listening space that accommodates different speaker types.
03/31/2011 Dynamic, ESL, Planar IMO - We listen to our rooms. The speakers in the rooms are like boats. They both represent freedom to me. A 12 foot aluminum boat is perfect for a small lake and your favourite person. But out on the ocean or a big body of water The water/boat analogy in this case is like your room and speakers. Water waves versus sound waves. There is no perfect boat and no perfect speaker. This is because all our rooms are different and the room is the big rock in this audiophile game. Speakers represent the last piece in the audio chain. Their sound represents everything in your audio chain especially the room, before it reaches your ears. Every piece will have an effect on what is heard. This IMO is why it is so important to have a good source. The last few years my speakers have remained intact and I have concentrated on improving the source components. Each time I improved the source my main speakers improved as well. This tells me they are not a bottleneck and I have not yet reached their limits.
Dynaudio Acoustics BM12s - Two of these in my Quad Room B .
Two of these in Room B - 18hz - 60 hz.
4th order Linkwitz- Riley crossovers have a really steep slope past 60 hz.
On paper this made them look like a really good match for the Quad 57's; but how does such a small box make 18 hz. They have class a/b amps are 4 ohms.
I brought them home and demoed them. Very Punchy, Clean and they go really low. A great match with the raised Wayne Picquet Quad 57's. They are placed under the speakers - see pic in my virtual system.
Quad 57 Wayne Picquet rebuild with Music Reference RM10 AMP
Quad ESL-57 - Wayne Picquet Panels Partnered with the amp that was designed for them - Music Reference RM10 by Roger Modjeski.
With certain music magic for me.
8/20/2012 These Quad 57 speakers were designed and put out before I was born. The parts inside which I have replaced like the EHT modules were stamped 1971. Fourteen years after they originally came out. The panels themselves are only a few years old. They were rebuilt by Wayne Piquet in Florida. The normal music presentation for stock Quad 57s is as if listening to music from the first row of a balcony. If using stock feet a 2 or 4 x 4 piece of wood or brick under the rear leg angling the speaker downwards toward you actually raises this image. This may be a more realistic presentation in your room.
Check out my review. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?rspkr&1309018315&&&/Quad-57-
801 Active Monitors - Currently Stored
Currently Stored - "Winnie the Pooh" of speakers. Relationship Destroyer. Owned since 1994. Serious Sound Pressure Speaker can re-create an event in your room when positioned and driven properly. Mothers milk bass. During my time with them have used Solid State and Tube amps (Push Pull and OTL's). In comparison to the DM70 Electrostatic, If the 801 and DM70 were cowboys. The 801s are wearing black hats and the DM70 white ones.
801 Matrix S2 and S3 - Designed by John Bowers to be Active Monitors with use of the BAF and become a sixth-order Butterworth alignment. Without the high pass filter they are a vented fourth-order design, specifically in a Bessel alignment. "Fourth-order" is an engineering term that refers to all vented and passive-radiator speakers; sealed boxes are "second order."
From Stereophile (re: S2) "Higher in frequency, the response trend (averaged across a 30 degrees lateral window on the tweeter axis) is basically flat, but with a slight excess of energy in the presence region and a corresponding lack of energy in the top octave. All things being equal, this will make the speaker both a little too revealing of recorded detail and somewhat fussy when it comes to the quality of source and amplification components, just as LL noted in his auditioning comments."
Some of the changes. S3 used a different crossover than s2 - less component count. Better isolated mid and hf boards. Bass inductors with an iron dust core . Rotating midrange tweeter head assembly was permanently connected. (from 3 to 4 pin delivering separate ground signals to midrange and tweeter) Magnetic fluid cooling of the tweeter (like the 800 matrix) - the reason the apoc protection eliminated (circuits needed for this were also removed)
In nearfield very revealing of room setup, system components - SS and Tube, cabling, TT drive systems, poorly recorded music. They reveal all the flaws of the recording.
Depending on your audio hobby objectives this can be a good thing or a bad thing...
See picture of the Bass Alignment Filter.
B&W Electrostatic DM70 John Bowers / JansZen Hybrid
B&W DM70 Electrostatic Continental Hybrid Speaker Clockwork Orange Movie The late John Bowers (RIP) favorite speakers. JansZen ESL - 500hz and up. B&W Woofer - 500hz and down. Require a large room - elevated to ear level and a good distance from the front wall. Very refined midrange - muscular bass. Non-directional with a large sweetspot.
n]Designed in 1970. No cost or time constraints during the development. From what I can make out they were discontinued due to costs involved. Version One - Power handling 25 watts at all frequencies. Version Two - The later DM70 Improved, which looked identical, is suitable for amplifiers of 25-100w, but seems otherwise identical.
500hz crossover - ESL panel can not be overdriven and is nondirectional.
ESL Panel was provided by JansZen. Sensitivity is 17 watts into nominal impedance required to produce a sound level of 95 dB. at one metre at 400 Hz Double fuse protection C and CA versions.
Modded Acoustat Model 3 - Used In Shared Space Upstairs
Finally hooked up the Model 3's to the OTL's in a temporary fashion.
These are in our living area shared space Custom modded Model 3;s. They have rebuilt interfaces. Unique granite bases with integrated spikes that weigh 80 lbs. Burl Oak Veneer facing and the inside is filled with small sand bags.
Technics SP10 MKII with 2nd ET2 High Pressure Manifold
March 11, 2013 Update
Next version ? will replace the current black base plinth with a more aesthetic one.
Pet Project - Has taught me a lot about resonances and vibrations. SP10MKII Version Five Solid Stainless Steel Legs have threads at both ends and are bolted into the sp10 top plate as well as the solid plinth/platform. The armpod is bolted into the plinth. The plinth is then isolated by the AT-616 Pneumatic footers. 19 lb Solid Brass Pod 1 inch Diameter Solid Stainless Steel.
Previously I had the SP10 MKII in a heavy 7 layer plinth. Birch ply + one mdf layer. This SP10MKII came from a private studio.
This is the second ET2 I own and it is a high pressure manifold
Jean Nantais Custom turntable. Includes: 100 Pounds - Veneered - Two Tonearm Plinth Lenco L75 motor and top plate rebuilt to his standards. Reference model spindle, bearing thrust plate. Bonded Metacrylate mat Bearpaw footers. IEC outlet.
************ SOME NOTABLE MEMORIES **************************
For me some notable equipment. Currently stored or sold-indicated as such.
McAlister OTL 195
OTL195 There is a review contained in my system thread. In comparisons to good Solid State Class A and Push Pull amps they were like driving a 911 but you are limited to 1st gear when pushed. Very fast and punchy. But lack the bass that push pull deliver on. Get the bass right and everything else comes into place. These amps are designed around the needs of Acoustats. My Acoustats are in the shared room upstairs. I no longer own the OTL's.
Fidelity Research FR64s
Gimbal Pivot Arm. I found excellent build quality and a nicely implemented antiskate system. I also found a low frequency resonance that accentuated the bass. A warmer sounding tonearm. It was in my second room with the second ET2 not the ET 2.5. Whenever I started a session with the FR64s it was always nice. But curiosity would always prevail and I would switch over to the ET2. It would always remain there. This happened more times than I can remember. I am not a tonearm collector so it was sold to raise funds for another project. I am in agreement with what Cartridge designer Johnathan Carr had to say about it. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1243274438&openusid&zzJcarr&4&5#Jcarr
Modded VPI's
Thread driven TNT and a JMW 12 using rollerblock jrs. SOLD
Acoustat Spectra 33
Acoustat Spectra 33
Eminent Technology LFT 8a
Set up in midfield - soundstage at both sides of the room. So the speaker shown is the left or the right one depending on side of room you are on. Excellent Magnetic Planar Hybrid Woofer Speaker. Very natural sounding but difficult to drive.
****************AUDIOPHILE FUN + ET 2 TONEARM MODS ************** ****
From here down are some inserts from past audiophile fun.
Also contained here is important information on the ET2, 2.5 tonearms as well as some of the mods I have done to them. If any questions on any of them let me know. No Holds Barred tonearm. User needs to be mechanically inclined and be willing to read ET2 manual instructions for proper setup of this tonearm. If bought on the used market a friend that is familiar with the tonearm for proper inspection of condition is important.
Goldilocks and the Three Turntables . See Sept 20, 2019 post comment below on my virtual system for findings / details.
Belt Drive (converted to thread) VPI TNT Idler - Jean Nantais Custom 100 Lb Direct Drive - SP10MKII When compared in the same room(nearfield), with same gear, tonearm and cartridge, same time, differences are revealed. Out into rooms on their own, this is not as noticeable as our ears deal with different room acoustics. ymmv
OTL VERSUS PUSH PULL Tube Amps
In room comparison.
Thread Drive Comparisons
2010 testing out different threads. Fabricland became a favorite place of mine.
ET 2 Tonearm Proper Bass Management - ATB
According to Bruce
My ears agree
ET 2.0 Manifold Before and After Cleaning
Pictures courtesty of a friend.
ET2 VTA Block Destroyed
Thigpen Genius showing VTA Block rack of teeth and worm gear. This one was abused. If you are buying a used one ensure the rack of teeth seen in the pic are uniform with no wear and baldspots. This is an indicator that the VTA block was misused and rigidly tightened stripping the teeth. The bolt was tightened to a point that shattered the CF.
ET 2.0 2.5 Tonearm VTA Block Torquing Procedure
VTA Block - Ensure each of the four bolts is torqued equally or the patented VTA system will be off. This procedures takes just minutes and should be done off table or you will throw your alignment off. Once bolts are torqued the manifold housing can be mounted to the pillar post and the rest of the setup completed.
ET 2.0, 2.5 Tonearm Magnesium versus Aluminum Armtubes
Mag - MC Cartridges Aluminum - MM Catridges The middle ground is the Carbon Fibre arm tube. MM and MC.
ET 2.0, 2.5 Custom Aluminum Joint - aka GOOSENECK
Black one is the stock one. Sourced from Richard Krebs
ET Tonearm Counterweight Bolt Mod
Get a longer counterweight bolt especially if you like to use heavier cartridges. The stock ET2 bolt is on the right. The longer bolt weighs a bit more, holds more lead weights and allows you to use less lead further out on the I Beam. This provides for the highest vertical mass which is really important with the ET2 as it has medium to high horizontal mass. a 4 - 1 horizontal to vertical ratio. In my system higher vertical mass means cleaner, less resonant, overall better bass. The brass rings are meant for balancing only. I prefer to use Blue Tack for this purpose.
Et2 Leaf Spring Mods Single, Double, Triple
General Cartridge Guideline
Single Leaf Spring - High compliance
Double - Medium Compliance
Triple - Low compliance
ET2 Pedestal Custom 3
Solid Brass Arm Pod
Koaltar Tweak
my pal 6 months, 79 lbs.
Kitty Tweak Bengal
a real sweetheart
RCA Victor Dog
I introduce Lucky. He is a mixed breed Jack Russell/Chihuahua mix breed. He will be acting as the Victor RCA dog,
The original Victor RCA dog.
He was named Nipper and was born in 1884 in Bristol, England, and died in September 1895. He was a mixed-breed dog and probably part Jack Russell Terrier, although some sources suggest that he was a Smooth Fox Terrier, or "part Bull Terrier". He was named Nipper because he would bite the backs of visitors' legs.
Hi Jond and Dan.. sorry for not seeing the posts. I am in the middle of a house transition. It has not been going as smoothly as we would like. 8^0 . Moving 7000 records doesn't help.
Jond thanks for the comments. To answer your question, yes those speakers were anchors in three different rooms. The DM70's, Matrix 800's and the Quads with two Dynaudio subs ( the subs set up in nearfield) did at one time all go through the same room; which showed me that it really is all about the Room. So we are all working with different rooms, different gear, different preferences. Explains the diverse set of opinions on forums? JMO
Likewise on a wonderful room and lots of acquired - respected gear.
Like all audiophile journeys, the Goldilocks and the Three Turntables adventure was personal, unique, and rewarding as I was able to form an opinion. Keep everything the same except for the drive type, including same tonearm, cartridge and wiring.
As you know, once you are able to form an opinion, it becomes obvious to you from the forum chatter, where we come for sharing of ideas and stress relief 8^0 .....whether other folks are speaking from real experience. In this case it has been evident to me, that very few have gone down this particular rabbit hole.
In trouble shooting with Rob at ER Audio he indicated to me that the 800m ohm resistors "three of them" in series, function to drain voltage from the panel when the listening session ends. They could be keeping the panel from charging fully. He doesn't use this drain resistors "design" in the ESL speakers that his company makes.
I discovered through research that carbon resistors which these are, tend to go up in values as they age. My multimeter for testing resistors only goes up to 40m ohm, So I ordered a Megaohm meter from Amazon for $60 and tested the resistors. They were way out. I was getting 1200m ohm readings. Well above the 800m ohm they should be at. As these resistors are daisy chained, Rob suggested I cut one of the resistor legs - taking them out of the circuit. I did this. in the picture I cut the leg the arrow is pointing to.
Sure enough that speakers ESL Panel output now equals the other ones consistently. Have been listening to them all week. So far so good.
The rebuild kit parts will still be installed. I am just enjoying the speakers right now. The nice thing about these speakers is that the massive 13 inch woofer means no subs are needed. There is significant DB levels in the 40-50 hz range. Their presentation using a number of different amps is quite interesting and different. Some amps produce a looser, flabbier bass. Others tight and shorter noted bass.
The nice thing is that with all the amps tried, voice and higher frequencies are consistently the same, with small variances only.
Through the last week of listening I noticed one of the ESL Panels goes lower in DB level - throwing the imaging off. Voices shift to the stronger Panel on the right side. Switching the Panels fixes the problem temporarily.
Eventually the left cabinet goes weak again. This tells me the ESL power supply in that cabinet is off.
After troubleshooting with ER Audio Australia, I ordered the EHT Board parts kit (Diodes and Capacitators) from them.
In the attached picture the part circled in yellow is the EHT board that feeds the ESL panel.
"This sounds cruel, but maybe you ought to have your cat de-clawed maybe?"
Dan - we acquired our now 5 year old F3 Savannah named Katya at 4 years of age. Her previous owner named her Katya - (Russian name meaning Pure). Aside from the obvious cruelty you mention involved in declawing - when a person declaws a cat, IMO, they pretty much eliminate any chance for the animal to defend itself, if they should get out, and find herself lost, trying to get back home.
So what I accept is, a Speaker, is a Speaker, is a Speaker, is a turntable, is an amp, is a preamp, is a summer car....., material things......wait a minute.... forget the last one .....8^0.
and our "Kitty" is family.
and FWIW this is my first cat. I didn't know what a Savannah cat was let alone what F3 meant before we got her. Audiogoneer Uberwaltz (Kevin) has been very helpful in educating me.
Hi Dan - apparently these speakers were John Bowers favorite speaker. I am beginning to realize why now.
I have them positioned 5 feet in front of the Quads. It is a large space. The speakers are maybe 8 feet in front of me and the output I am getting from the ESL panels is large room filling, and it blends very nicely with the woofer cabinet. You read these days about how current ESL speakers with integrated woofers, can't mix well with their Dynamic bass woofer. Well here you go. 1971. They got it right - but the cost to build was more than their selling price, so I believe one of the reasons they were discontinued.
I have tried removing all of the cabinet stuffing and bass became very woolly. It was resonating everywhere. The cabinet is damped with this stuffing - in a big transparent bag - The bass is very tuneable, with the amount of stuffing it contains. Some people have removed the stuffing and attached rubber mats to the inside.
I repeated the procedure for the other ESL panel. Some of the previous owner restoration work was shoddy, and would not allow for good connections in spots to perform a full charge. Screws and plates were tightened and cleaned.
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If you look at the picture link in this post. What can be seen is.
The stators hold the voltage and it alternates back and forth, and makes the Mylar vibrate producing sound. Think Hummingbird bird wings. A simple way of explaining it.
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Our Cat is in love with the Acoustat ESL's upstairs so much so that I have them covered them and they are in the corners hidden, not being used. I am terrified to charge them up. Maybe I bring these DM70c speakers upstairs ? Speakers are my Achilles Heel I think. Get them sorted and I can't get rid of them.
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there was a problem with one of my links in the previous post. The virtual system database doesn't have the same functionality that the general forums have for linking pics and other functions. The posts got messed up and some text deleted. Sorry for any confusion this causes anyone.
Symptoms - One of the ESL Panels was not as loud as the other.
I switched the ESL panels and the problem moved over to the other side. This told me it was a panel problem. So I took the ESL Panel off and started the process of removing the ESL panel parts.
The way an ESL works is actually very simple when you break it down. There is a membrane - mylar that has spacers on each side of it. On either side of these spacers are the stators that take the voltage and conduct electricity < > making the membrane move / vibrate. This creates the sound.
In the top link the picture on the very right shows the stator on top, then the spacer and the membrane itself which underneath it one will find the other spacer and stator.
Much to my surprise when I removed the parts I found what is in the picture on the membrane.
Debris larger than dust. Maybe from a house project entered the ESL Panel when it was charged up. The bottom picture shows my attempt to clean it. The debris on the mylar was preventing full movement. Other than that the mylar was tight and no holes or damage from what I could see.
The speakers had been repaired prior to myself owning them. I remember when I initially set them up, I experimented with external tweeters. But I had the Quad 57 project going on at the same time so didn't get too detailed with them. These speakers do not need external tweeters. The one speaker was throwing the balance off.
The bass can be tuned easily by removing or adding cabinet stuffing.
Symptoms - One of the ESL Panels was not as loud as the other.
I switched the ESL panels and the problem moved over to the other side. This told me it was a panel problem. So I took the ESL Panel off and started the process of removing the ESL panel parts.
The way an ESL works is actually very simple when you break it down. There is a membrane - mylar that has spacers on each side of it. On either side of these spacers are the stators that take the voltage and conduct electricity < > making the membrane move / vibrate. This creates the sound.
I have noticed around this time every year, with about 6 weeks of winter remaining, that I tend to get the Audiophile itch. Listening to music has helped me so far, but I need to get my hands moving.
I pulled my B&W DM70c Continental Speakers out of storage and set them up a few feet in front of the Quad 57's in Room B.
The speakers sound amazing, as I remembered and their design is timeless. But the one ESL panel output was down.
After various attempts at troubleshooting, and looking into repair solutions; weighing time and $$$, I decided to go the DIY route for repair with a DM70 Repair kit from an Australian Company ER Audio.
thought I would post about the wonderful time I have been having with my son going through albums on Tidal Hi Fi then comparing to the vinyl. You know when it has gone well ....they ask you ......so how do I turn everything on and off again ?
A memorable moment for me, was when he brought over his buddy, who upon seeing the matrix 800 room 1, wanted to know how to pair up to those speakers. 8^0... So he hooked his phone up, his music, into my system.
He was in dis belief , like most, upon first seeing the Quad 57's Room 2 and believing that they were in fact speakers. Once he heard them ...he believed.
The only music negative, was in the "inability" to run my Acoustat Model 3's on the main floor over the holiday period. I am "allowed" to stream music on the main floor as long as selections include Christmas music and Motown. The reason was due to Katya our Savannah cat now 5 years old. We have had her one year. She developed a fondness for the Acoustat cloth grills from day one. The material was one thing; but her playing on voltage charged speakers was another. So they got wrapped with a spare carpet rug (she seemed to love the plastic dust cover rustling noises ) and moved to the corners.
I have tried cat scratchers in the room.
Anyone want to provide suggestions ? please do so. I fear the ESL's have run their course in that space.
Goldilocks and the Three Turntables - rewrite 2019 - includes original text with hindsight.
1) The Room and Hearing Differences
An analogy first about sound we hear.
When you have a car you can drive it around all day and night, for weeks and it can seem ok, mechanically speaking, to you. Has one noticed what happens when you drive down an alley way at night or up/down one of those tight narrow parking ramps with the windows open ? All of a sudden you start hearing noises, if, there are any issues. It could be brake pads rubbing, it could be a wheel bearing. It may also be a belt near the engine. Unless you are driving in this type of environment any problems may not manifest themselves in a more...open area, until it gets bad - loud - enough.
Why am I talking about this? Well if you want to find out if your car is ok – drive down an alley at night with the windows open. Ok - but for this hobby? Audio Rooms are no different. Over the years I have had the exact same gear in different rooms. All different presentations and sounds. This formed my opinion for the importance of the Room. I also at one time had three rooms set up concurrently - 2010 era . One of the rooms, my dedicated one, I have had since the fraternal twins were 1 year old 1995. The room helped me to raise them.... 8^0 .....by keeping me sane. It was nicknamed Dads Hole.
The Panic Room.
Now the interesting thing about Dad's Hole is that it is longer and narrower about 13 x 24 ft, with 8 foot ceilings. Multiple speakers have been set up in many configurations over the years. Long Wall, Short Wall. Nearfield always tells the best story with music for me. Try to picture listening to Acoustat Spectra 33 in nearfield. Two big headphones.
Short Wall Set up Shooting Down the Room;
When set up on the short wall shooting down the room (like the Alley Way), I can hear things in that room better than any other room in the house. The short wall configuration became the permanent setup many years ago. So I personally believe that 1) Listening in nearfield allows you to hear more and better, before reflections occur, obscuring the sound and 2) The narrow "alley way" in the room increases the audibility of sounds - good and bad. I believe this point 2, was a contributing factor in my findings here.
2) What Method of Turntable Testing Led to my Personal Findings.
My personal findings have been through my own number of carts, tonearms and tables - in my own space. Not at shows, or dealer salons, or other folks set ups, and or reviews. In the end once my tonearm was chosen, my experiments were with putting the same two tonearms, cartridges, set up well, on different tables and hearing.... "this" ......after various modifications.
Better ----> Worse --------> Better -----> Different -------> Better --------> Different ------> Worse ---------> Better
(one should always end up with better in the end) 8^0
Showed me very clearly how much role the table itself plays. In fact based on my findings.
IMO, the better table, with a better tonearm and modest cartridge, "set up well" ...... WILL..... outperform a very expensive cart on a more modest table and tonearm. No question.
Lesson learned.
So IMO, one should in general if starting out on an Audiophile Journey; stick with modest cartridges first, and learn the table, tonearm relationship. Settle on a combo. Then go to town if you desire on different carts. I do not deny that every cartridge one puts on, changes the sound dramatically. I just think it is much easier and makes more sense to change out carts over whole turntables and tonearm setups. With that if I ever get a another cart, a London is at the top of the list - its unique and its designer, used an air bearing linear tracker for its design.
All cartridges are on a continual decline with hours played from Day One. Whereas I expect my turntable, and tonearm to outlast me. Reminds me of the shoes I use for running. Expensive, and the support only lasts about 400 miles, and then they needed changing or you are going to experience knee, hip, feet and other issues.
It should be noted that my tonearm of choice is a design that I can mount any cart on that I want. Eminent Technology ET 2.5. It can be configured to accept and be compatible with MM and MC carts.
3) Turntable Testing Method
During this same period I ran three turntables, in my dedicated room, side by side with the same tonearm and cartridge, wiring and hooked up to the same pre/phono. One turntable was my personal custom direct drive, Technics SP10 II, the other a custom belt drive eventually modded with thread - VPI TNT. Third a a 100 lb Lenco idler built by Jean Nantais. This Lenco used to be his personal reference table, and was used to develop his Reference Model. I acquired it through a friend of his in Ottawa, Ontario.
They were tested two at a time. Two ET2 tonearms, same cartridge, same wiring. All I needed to do was unplug the wires and switch tables. .
They were run against each other and also against 15 IPS master tape copies.
Against tape all I needed to do was start the tape, then the record 15 - 20 seconds later then toggle between the two, adjusting for volume as tape is a high level source.
With the same tonearm, wiring and cartridge, same gear, same room, very big differences became obvious in the music presentation between the tables...as an audiophile might expect.
The results I got, eventually helped and contributed in my decision on a final table.
4) How the tables were set up.
Three turntables were set up in a way that best supported their design.
Idler Drive - On brass cones connected to a hard surface as designed by its maker Jean Nantais. The massive specially designed plinth provides the damping and isolation.
Belt Drive - Plinth Supported by Massive Pneumatic AT-616 footers. Stock Motor isolated by Belt then modified to thread.
Direct Drive. After multiple trials, the final version Motor/Platter supported by Stainless Steel Pillars, with a Massive Brass Armpod isolating the tonearm and cartridge from the motor. Minimal plinth design.
5) Direct Findings
Idler
The Lenco idler has a "Formula One Motor " (quote by A. Salvatore)
with
a "drive system wheel and rod that is very Flintstone like and feels disconnected" (quote CT0517).
So a very slick Swiss Built motor but its power is transmitted through an archaic drive "IMO" mechanism. wheel with rod and is subject to vibrations and noise.
They are a lot of fun and remind me of big American iron cars from the 70's. Great in a straight line, Hit that first curve however, and you realize their Achilles Heel is bad brakes. In the stock speed setting for 33 1/3 mine runs a bit fast.
From an audiophile perspective most noticeable on Classical music with big dynamic swings, meaning big groove modulations, followed by small ones; they can't slow down fast enough and generate in the music produced, that phenomena, music feeling, that I read people describe as "PRAT".
They are noisier compared to the other drive types and will generate feedback with the wrong cartridge due to lack of motor isolation. This is one of the reasons a massive plinth is required to dampen the vibrations.
Still ......for a brief period when first introduced in my room, became the standard to shoot for. Proving that even though the design suggests less than optimum results - a tweaked out Idler can be your final table. Again my Jean Nantais Lenco relies on the massive plinth for damping. It's 100 lbs and there are huge cavities/spaces under each tonearm armboard and the platter.... for isolation !
The best at speed control if that is your objective, their Achilles heel being they try too hard IMO to maintain the correct speed. The constant back and forth of the motor speed controller setup, results in the driest of sounds between the three, and sounding the most like digital. So the SP10MKII sounds like it is just trying too hard to be accurate. I think it needs a little LESS CORRECTION, and still be able to maintain Speed Stability to make it better. It's a balance. And I believe that the SP10 series which was very popular in radio stations, was geared toward robustness and speed stability.
For a hobby that is flawed with an imperfect source, the record, and the vibrations and noise inherent induced in playback, the isolated motor belt drive seems a practical design. Its Achilles Heel, IMO the opposite of the Idler Drive, in that it sounds the most to me like, it is "Riding the Brakes" compared to the others ; is affected most by stylus drag and record irregularities. With that however, if a motor controller, platter design and drive belt is used that minimizes stylus drag and record irregularities, it has great potential and can overcome the "Riding of the Brake" , and can sound IMO the most like real Music flowing.
In the end, for me, my tweaked out TNT with string drive ended up edging out - trumping - the Idler and Direct Drive in my room, and resulted in enough "pros", that convinced me to look for a string drive designed table as my last table.
All three turntables were great in their own way and IMO can be ones final table, especially if this is really about the music, and not the gear itself. For myself, I was in the Audiophilia Nervosa phase back in those years, and it was not until the Verdier was introduced into my room; a WOW moment for me from the first album, and the period in time when I realized the turntable search was over for myself. I had reached the end of the road with this marvel. Even though it is a design that begs the Audiophile for tweaking as all its parts are exposed, and easy to access. My desire for more experimentation was satisfied. The satisfied feeling still exists today, but I do enjoy working with others in their audio journey.
If you are still out there... Would you be willing to send me any info about what you discovered?"
Best,
Patrick
Hi Patrick - thx for your post.
Much was lost or made difficult to find under the virtual systems here when Audiogon went to their new format couple years back. The virtual system were not priority. For example - Picture links to one's virtual system information from the general forums is no longer possible now. google link attached
The storyline picture behind Goldilocks and the Three Turntables is now under picture 8 in my virtual system above. I have had other requests in the past along with yours. I can recreate my turntable journey and reason for final table selection here in my next post. It will be based on the following parts from previous information and current thoughts - hindsight.
1) The Room and Hearing Differences
2) What method of Turntable testing led to my Personal Findings.
3) Turntable Design Differences
4) How the tables were setup.
5) Direct Findings - The results I got, Helping me in my final table selection.
Added a picture of Katya, new to us (Savannah cat), pictured with my Acoustat ESL Model 3 speakers. See last picture in virtual system. The Acoustat have been resurrected in the same room that is now currently being used as an Exercise room. We got Katya late fall 2018. Should I be worried about the ESL cloth grills ?
My Music Reference RM9 went down on me - a bad power tube - so I have been forced to buy 8 KT88's -- OUCH. Not good with the current Canadian American dollar Exchange.
Waiting for their arrival so I can insert that RM9 amp with the Acoustat first, to try them out. This should be the last re-tube for that amp.
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Internet Streaming
Have been enjoying - Venice Classic Radio from Italy
https://www.veniceclassicradio.eu/
Sound quality decent, Selections, Variety, No commercials
The Italian feed shows you a picture of the album with full details.
A visual is good, because if I like what I am hearing, it allows me to go look and see if I have that album for playing in my room; as I attempt ....8^(..... to get through the LP collection.
Multiple Point - Ground Syndrome Zombies. (aka as Ground Hum)
We have all had them. So what to do ?
First what are these Zombies?
When two or more devices (preamp, cd, dac, tape, etc.. ) are connected to a common ground through different paths, ground path noise, or a ground loop can occur.
Recent discussions about ground hum with a friend in an established system that was quiet before (for a long time), prompted this post. I hope it helps anyone reading since ground hum is like a cancer in this audio hobby.
These Zombies can surface with two devices connected to the same outlet and multiple outlets. When looking at multiple outlets, if the ground points are measured the voltages between them is never exactly the same, even with dedicated circuits. These variances can when grabbed by the audio signal produce the ground hum. If ....the hum is not coming from the device itself. Everyone should measure the voltage from different outlets in a room.
A Personal Example.
In my Room A things were quiet for a long time. When I added the ARC DAC years ago and plugged it into a dedicated outlet, same one used by the ARC preamp; I got a terrible ground hum. There are three dedicated lines in that room. It didn't matter. Same hum result. WTH I thought to myself. If I lifted the DAC ground with a cheater plug - the hum disappeared. But you can't run this way as it is dangerous.
I then decided to use the 3 prong power outlet on the back of the power supply for my ARC preamp. Bingo. Hum disappeared.
IMO
This audio business, audio manufacturers went backwards when they removed power inputs from the back of preamp power supplies and forced people to use separate multiple outlets, creating multiple ground points for their input devices. They released the ground point Zombies.
Who knows how some of these room's electrical connections are laid out especially if they are not dedicated outlets. The multiple power inputs for devices on back of preamps assured a common single path ground was used.
Helped two millennial's set up systems this summer using vintage acquired gear. One was my son the other his friend. Very enjoyable.
A good outcome from this was my son has taken a renewed interest in my gear.
Every audiophile's nightmare is leaving gear when we pass on from this earth; and no one in the family has a clue to the gears worth. We went through both of my rooms and put price tags on the gear. I then showed him what was hiding behind the curtains and in the drawers. The look on his face was priceless.
Couple standouts -
He was totally floored by the innards of the Studer tape machine. The circuit / layout precision unmatched.
He also couldn't believe the new prices on my reference turntable, tonearm and cart - used to play .......... a simple record.
I told him not to worry and while I was still around he was free to take the stored Jean Nantais Idler with Dynavector tonearm if he wanted to get into vinyl.
As the weather turns colder I am looking at the walls of LP's in different rooms, and with my main objective still being trying to get through as many them as possible; I can't recall where I left off last spring. 8^(
I got a couple inquiries into why my Audiogon Avatar went from the animated Runner......to a running Wile E Coyote.
AudioGon is an Audiophile site, so......
I decided to make my Avatar into something symbolic of AudioGon and therefore the Audiophile
Why Wile E Coyote ?
He is always Chasing ...never Gettting. 8^0
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Wife's LP find.
Last week while on facebook my wife told me someone had records for pick up. 3 boxes worth so probably around 300. I was leery and even though I have more records that I could listen to in multiple lifetimes, the thought of finding one or two gems is always alluring. Part of this vinyl disease.
So I told her "yeah sure lets go over". Worse case I bring 'em home, pick through them, and drop them off at the good will. What I found were three U-Haul boxes labelled Gran's records. Half the records were Classical - never played from a quick visual. A few box sets. A set of Funk and Wagnalls Classical - maybe 20 records. The rest of the Classical were individual titles and in never what appears never played condition. The rest were old country, brass, some pop/rock and the usual Good Will popular finds. But interestingly these were all in mint condition too. Surprising.
A very hot and humid summer here so far. Conducive to being on the water and drinking beer ...on the dock. Campfires up north at our cottage have been banned due to the dryness. The eventual cooler air to come will spell the return to more serious music listening for me in my rooms.
re: the subs. IMO anytime one can you set levels down on subs - the better it is. Less of a bass wave exciting the room. No one can tell where the low bass is coming from when set below 100 hz. So if one can get away with nearfield placement ....
So on either side of the listening couch, the subs are just coasting at the loudest music passages , working less and they will last longer as well, as the vibration from the woofers, and heat from the internal amps is less on the circuit board solder joints. I know of folks whose subs have gone down due to a cracked circuit board solder joint. The manufacturer has no interest in repair and wants them to buy new. Placing an amp inside a box with woofer really doesn't make sense. And these Dynaudio's have Class A/B amps not D. So heat is a factor. They have the FINS on back to help with cooling. But the FINS are not even warm in the new position. This is a WIN / WIN situation.
re; the Nearfield sub phase setup.
Placing ones finger on the woofer next to you, while the sub plays is an easy way to tell if its pulses are in sync with the main speakers bass. Do it by feel.
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The gear in Room 2 is in a bit of a mess right now as I had to bring the preamp out to allow the L and R output signal cables to reach the subs on both sides of the listening couch. In an Audiophile sense the Quads being ESL's are directional and not as affected as much by gear/stands beside them, but this needs to be sorted out. Sort of messy right now, but as I am listening, it sounds great, and I don't see the mess. lol
I did also add a projection screen to that room a while back that pulls down when needed then disappears when not being used. Maybe some pics when everything is cleaned up.
Have been using Room # 2 Quad 57 / Dynaudio Bm12s - (Two of them), for the last week; even with my wife home upstairs..... and she has been complaining about the bass. The sub on the right side happens to be directly under the room she uses upstairs.
So I relocated both subs to the other side of the room on either side of the main listening couch. I have used this type of Sub set up before when I had one sub in that room. Same results but better. Was able to turn the levels down on the Subs three notches. Changing the phase to 180 degrees completed the setup. I now get all the bass I want at higher listening levels and I do not encroach on her space. (at least not as much :^0 ) Subs are set to 60 hz and down. The Quad 57's are run full out on the Music Reference RM10.
This is the advantage of having separate subs. A problem with using full range speakers like the Matrix 800's is that you are forced to position them for imaging and bass response, at the same time. Some rooms make this difficult.
This is a true story. The names have been changed to protect the innocent.
"George and his Records - Audiophile beginnings".
George had one turntable, one tonearm, one cartridge, and collection of a 1000 records of which 10% or 100 ..... were pulled from the shelves next to him, cleaned and available for listening. The titles of the 100 Records would change as time went by. Records would get taken from the 1000, and interchanged with these 100 records. George found 100 records manageable. He called these his "ready to play" records, and the music on these specific records represented his current state of mind and being. The focus of his record playing was the music on the records themselves. George is a Music Lover.
One day George visited an Audio Salon and he was intrigued by the gear that he saw in there. So intrigued, that he ended up buying another tonearm and cartridge to put on his turntable. Now George noticed that this second tonearm and cartridge changed his record playing behavior. Instead of just listening to his records as he always did; he was now intrigued by the different sounds that the new tonearm and cartridge was making in his room compared to the old setup. This was very interesting to him. He would switch from his old tonearm/cartridge to the new combo and back again. This new behavior, went unnoticed by George at first. His interest in hearing the different sounds from both tonearms, cartridges, meant that he was also now going through a smaller sample of the records; maybe 20 of the 100 ready play records. There was just no time to hear more of them. This didn't bother George as he was having so much fun. So much fun in fact, that George decided he was going to add a third tonearm/cartridge.
Well with the three tonearms and cartridges set up, George was now down to a rotation of only 5 records. George was fascinated with the different sounds each produced on the same record. He even bought extra copies of the same album to play repeats on the different tonearms/carts, one at a time, so he could hear the differences. His wife Wendy, now noticed that he was starting to replay songs more and more. She started to get a little worried, but as he was in the house with her, and not in a bar with friends drinking, she did not approach him or worry too much about it.
George had now reached a level where he could tell the strengths and weaknesses of each of the tonearms/cart combos in his system kit, in his room, when playing same records. He could feel and see the differences in the gear builds, and the resulting differences in sound they made. George was now listening to the gear, the equipment, and no longer to the music on the records themselves. The records had become but another piece of gear. The focus of his record playing was now the gear, and hearing differences between the different tonearm/cartridge components. George was having a lot of fun.
One day, George thought to himself...... I wonder if I changed that speaker for .......
Sold the B&W 801 that I was storing for my son. Not really the type of speaker you would store for your daughter, right ? His sister is a fraternal twin. Anyway.
Came to the realization that if he (23 years now) ever gets an apartment one day and moves out; those speakers will probably get him kicked out. Plus he will be needing me to supply everything in front of them in the space.
I have had him and friends in both rooms listening to LP's, Tape, and Digital. I have also let him play his music in Room 1 from his device, or stream from his online source through my dedicated music server laptop, connected to the ARC DAC 8.
So what's not to like ?
The room has no mobility. Cannot follow him around. :^(
Hi Eric - Audiogoneer Banquo363 found this unit for me. I have been using its smaller brother the Aridyne 3000 for 10? years now. A pic of it is in my virtual system. I got this one for a couple hundred dollars, but being in Canada I paid a King's ransom to bring it here from the US. :^(
They can be found on Ebay and Medical reseller websites but they usually have anywhere from 5000, 10000, or more hours on them, after coming to the end of their lease, rental. They get bought by these surplus dealers from hospitals and resold. The less than 300 hours on this one and knowing how well they work, it was one I could not pass up.
Higher hours are not an issue as they are designed to be run 24 /7 - so using them for a 6-8 hour music listening session is nothing. Being on castors they can placed anywhere and moved around. It uses a coalescing filter system so it doesn't need an external condensation system, making it pretty much plug and play. The actual air pump is suspended by springs !
When the box for the Ultrasonic Cleaning tank bath arrived last year, it came in a non descript brown generic looking box with small labels. It came a week before my wife's birthday.
My wife intercepted the courier, I was not home. She opened it and thought I had bought her a deep fryer for her birthday. She called me about it sounding disappointed.
"Did you really get me a deep fryer for my birthday" ?
Without thinking I said the first thing that came to me
"no it's not for your birthday, it's for cleaning the records"
Bad answer. Still not out of that hole yet.
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My kids brought some nasties home late in the year and made me sick. Took two weeks to get over. OD'ed on Netflix
By mid January was finally in a state of mind to plow through some of this un played record collection. I will continue to do so until the weather makes it possible for me to float on the water again. The ground hog has predicted another 6 weeks of winter. Shoveling, Cleaning and Listening will help pass the time.
I went Computer Audio quite a while ago in my main room. But I have a few CD players lying around like everyone else. My Rega Saturn finally gave up the ghost and Rega support in Canada wanted $300+ and shipping to fix the problem. As an IT Career guy I knew something was up. This did not sound right.
It uses a Sanyo SF-P101N transport. They are available for $10 bucks from China. So what did I have to lose. I ordered one. The problem is they use Camels to deliver the parts - took over a month to get to me. But it got here this week. So ?
I exchanged transports and voila - it works again this Saturn CD player.
I use it in the Quad setup Room 2.
In hindsight the transports themselves hardly go bad - its the laser that goes bad. It caused the transport to make noises making you think the transport is no good.
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Important. Laser Module Anti Static Solder Point.
Note: there is an anti static solder point next to the ribbon connector on the laser module that needs to be removed before using the new laser. If you order an entire transport you will need to remove the laser module in order to get access, to remove the solder point. if you try to use the new Laser without taking out the solder point you will get a No Disc Message on your player.
This video shows how to remove the anti static solder point allowing the laser to function.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTYxo3F_YIA
This link tells you what kind of DAC and transport your CD Player uses.
Added Lucky to the gear component list. He will be acting in the capacity of the RCA Victor dog. Lucky is half Jack Russell, and half Chihuahua.
History from His Master's Voice painting.
The original RCA Victor dog was called Nipper, and was born in 1884 in Bristol, England, and died in September 1895.He was a mixed-breed dog and probably part Jack Russell Terrier, although some sources suggest that he was a Smooth Fox Terrier, or "part Bull Terrier". He was named Nipper because he would bite the backs of visitors' legs.
This post attempts to answer the mystery question "Where did my turntable drive system go"
Some background first
When building out Room A in 1994, the ceiling venting system for the Heating and Air Conditioning was blocked off and plugged in this basement space...in order to better insulate and isolate the room from the rest of the house. Meaning one wife and less than a year old fraternal twins. The result of this isolation/insulation... is that during the colder winter days, the door leading to the room needs to be left open to help heat the room. Not normally a problem. But ever since our daughter started travelling abroad, we have been babysitting her Bengal kitty see Pic 40/41.
....and the situation changed.
The first clue ....was finding an Amperex Bugle Boy tube in the middle of Room A on the carpet. Tracing back this audio tube made its way to this spot only after - being removed from its wrapping on the back work bench ....dodging thick speaker cables and 1st, the large Krell amplifier, followed by the Krell bass Alignment filter to its final resting spot 6 feet away. The tube traveled approximately 15 feet.
I was alarmed to discover this about a month ago; but I took no real action and decided I better make sure the door at the top of the stairs, remained closed whenever the bottom Room A basement door was left open. I don't think my wife read the memo.
*****************************
The lead up:
I had been enjoying Room B over the holidays (I call it the Quad Room) with company and the larger space. I was getting ready to transition to Room A for some "please help me get through this winter" musical experiences. Gear was powered up and allowed to warm up. Krell amp needs 24 hours of standby mode after being dormant for multiple days to come to life. I warmed up with some digital first and then I was ready - time for the vinyl fix. I head back to the deepest part of the basement where the Timeter air compressor lives, and flick the switch which brings the ET 2.5 tonearm to life. Head back over to Room A, walk over to La Platine to start it up, and discover .........the silk thread drive has disappeared ! Vanished !!
Panic sets in....I look again..... the cartridge cantilever/stylus is still intact....I look again.... the exposed naked one shot wiring has not being disturbed.......I breathe a sigh of relief. Then I get curious.
I look and I look, but cannot find the silk thread that has vanished.....
Hmmm....
****************************
Took two minutes to put on some new silk thread.
The mystery of the missing silk thread has still not been resolved. My wife is shown another copy of the memo.
if you scroll down that ad you will see the seller has included the actual tech specs page from AT.
It says working weight for a set of 4 is 22 to 132 lbs.
I did use them successfully with the TNT. These days I am using three of them with the Sp10 which if you include the SP10 unit weight, 4 solid stainless steel columns, plus the heavy platform they join to, the weight is probably in the upper range when using three of them.
I think the AT 616 isolators are very good and keepers, meaning they are the type of product that even if you replace them with something else later, you will keep them to use elsewhere. Hmmm..... I think this basic philosophy is how I ended up with what I own. You should see what is in the drawers. 8^0
Looking at them, there is no way you, I or someone else can have them made at those prices. They are substantial on their own. The TNT sounded very good with them. Just as important to me, the AT616's and also the pneumatic footers that my Verdier came with; their settings have not been touched n years and they are still level. Very important as you know for an air bearing tonearm. So that's the kind of quality I am looking for.
I never went with the VPI air bladder option on the TNT. I recall folks saying they leak and need adjustment. This turned me off them. I am hard on my gear, it needs to last, and I don't like anything to leak, break down, go out of alignment, etc... Reliability is important.
Also you mentioned reasonable prices. We know this is relative and depends on who you are talking to. For example from this past summer I am reminded of something. Now if I told some of the guys I hang with at the lake, I am spending $500 to buy new feet for my turntable they would look at me funny. But these same guys easily toss $500 toward a different prop for their boat. One that will let them maybe get out of the hole quicker to pull skiers, or maybe the other type for top speed. Now their wives look at them funny, and the changes in the boat performance with different props can be subtle, just like tweaks in this audio hobby.
Once I experimented and stuffed the TNT Pods with Blue Tack - took alot of Blue Tack !
The plinth got dampended so much the music ended up sounding like it was coming from downunder; and I am not referring to Australia or NZ. I mean where the horny red guy lives...... 8^0
thx for your comments. :^) and Happy Canadian Thanksgiving.
Re; Gene at TakeFive Audio
I agree, great guy he has made a number of looms for me and I have referenced a number of audio friends to him. I went back to my emails because I had asked him how he builds up the wire going into those very heavy WBT Nextgens. His response to me from a number of years ago.
"For those WBT's the buildup was done with several layers of shrinktube. The first piece is 1/16" CPX 100 Black, you have to be EXTREMELY careful when applying heat so that you do not fuse the insulation together on the wires. From there it is built up using 1/4" and 3/8" CPA type shrinktube with the last piece covering the first two for an overall clean stepped appearance."
Re: my loom
In the first picture you can see I leave the wire on the outside of ET 2.5 armtube. That happens to be the Magnesium armtube. I realize it is not the cleanest or nicest looking way to do it, but looks are not that critical to me. With the wire running on outside I am able to change out armtubes or carts really quickly if I wanted to. The ARC preamp sits right next to the ET 2.5 so the direct shot wiring is a short 24 inches. I sit within arms reach of the ARC preamp controls. The ET 2.5 sits on the Verdier elevated armboard, this works well as the wire drops to a happy smile where it connects to the platform where my preamp sits. Large Flat Plinths present challenges for tonearms like the ET where the wiring setup will affect its performance. The ET tonearm is also a totally different design approach to the Kuzma Airline which needs its wiring and air tube on its moving manifold for damping. As we know the ET's manifold and airtube line is stationary.
Re the TNT thread drive. The audiogon collage of pictures shows the picture numbers in the top left. The picture you reference with the TNT pulleys in use is 20/41 and it is an earlier picture. I did end up removing the pulleys and if u look at picture 27/41 it shows the final setup including the pneumatic footers on the TNT. The pulleys will introduce noise but they also lessen the pull on the platter. I did get best results from memory without the pulleys.
The prevailing message in my system description is that. ... the "Gear" is just a means to the end. Blessed is the music lover that reaches the end point without spending thousands. If this person frequents Audiogon .......good luck to you. :^)
Some hindsight in reaching the end based on my personal experience.
Once you have a 2 channel stereo system "kit" that is at a point that sounds great to you in your room. Move that kit in whole including all cabling to 3 or 4 different rooms and see what happens.......:^)
So getting prepared for colder weather serious listening for late 2016
>>>>> into 2017 (God willing)
and re-starting my Records Reorganization Project
(see 2nd picture but with warning - it is not a pretty site) A daunting task?
This reorganizations objectives, which include my wife not finally trying to do me in (divorcing me), is in order to do more learning of composers, their music, and the music enjoyment that will come from that :^)
This will also be a welcome change from the summer time music I have mostly been listening to up north - the kind that goes well with Beer and Campfires.
Re: the thread - How to Best Organize the Classical Record Collection.
Look for updates on how I am dealing with the challenges that only a Classical Record Collection brings (whether your collection is vinyl, digital or both)
Likewise Dan. Its too bad for all the virtual communications with many Audio buddies due to the distances. But we also know "virtual" means we have all made Audio Buddies around the world. AudioGon virtual systems help to bridge the gap.
Speaking of buddies; my bud Koaltar is forced to listen from the head of the stairs. Just too many hairs unfortunately. This is too bad because he would just park himself next to me and not move. Probably add in some dampening with his 77 lbs. My daughters' Bengal kitty has been in both rooms. As a kitten she would use the rows of vinyl in Room A as a highway which was kind of cool to watch as she stepped over Beethoven, then Miles. then N Young, then A Winehouse to N Merchant, ......:^)
But now she is just too fast and can get into too much trouble especially with the Verdier/ET 2.5 turntable setup which is on a longer low platform only 17 inches off the floor. I have seen her jump 4 feet so this represents a real danger. Nothing like a cat taking out your turntable/cartridge. She likes long string :^(
re: Dynaudio BM12s
We know we are at the mercy of the sound engineer on every recording we listen to. The BM12s are able to do four presets with the remote from the listening position to compensate for different music genres - good and bad recordings (i.e. too much or too little bass). The remote allows for selection of crossover point, and phase control, db level, extension, all from the listening position. Just push one of four presets when done. No more need for an audio friend to adjust the sub settings, and then you scream at him
" that's it, stop there ! ". Its a one person operation now. Its db levels are a push of the (+) or (-) button, the light blinks once which means 1 db up or down. You have a range of 20 db with it.
In contrast, Room A's Matrix 800 speaker system is a passive 4 sub system - Two high subs two low for 2 channel music. Two sets of bass waves go out canceling each other - leaving behind musical notes. The speakers looks intimidate but they are very room friendly. You can unplug the top woofer to see how much effect it has on the room. I could probably move them back toward the front wall more with no bass issues, but this would obviously reduce the music depth.
I found Two New Old Stock (NOS) - Dynaudio Acoustics BM12s in a
recording studio. Never out of the boxes.On paper for my needs they are; 18hz - 60 hz with 4th order Linwitz- Riley
crossovers.
Linkwitz-Riley crossovers match attenuation
slopes so that system response is flat at crossover point.
Butterworth crossovers yield to a peak at the
crossover frequency.
Bessel crossovers have a frequency response
between Linkwitz-Riley and Butterworth crossovers.
So the
Dynaudio BM12s crossovers have a flat response where cutoff is applied. This, plus
being a sealed box design made them appear to be a really good match for my
Wayne PK Quad 57's. Quick and no cone
bass past 60 hz. They house 250 watt amps
@4 ohms which from the size of the heat sinks I assume is Class A/B. Most of the other subs I looked at were high
wattage Class D designs..
The
numbers matched up, so I made the drive out there. I brought the
two home and tried them out. I did find them very punchy, clean, and quick. They
go really low and keep up with the 57's on kick drums and other low bass. A good
ergonomic match (to my eyes) with my raised Wayne PK Quad 57's. The subs are
placed under them with the woofer cones forward of the actual Quad 57 panels - for
now. This sets the sub phase alignment at "0"
I am not
able to preview a post on the system thread. if the direct link doesn't work
see the last bottom picture of my virtual system page - the one to the right of the Bengal
kitty :^). .
The
Dynaudio's use a thick credit card sized remote control for configuring them. ( don't lose it ).
A little
strange how all this came about. This was a good 6 month plus search. The Dynaudio
BM12s were a real dark horse that just appeared out of the blue toward the end.
For those following, the other subs I was seriously considering were JL Audio,
REL, Rhythmik and Seaton. Rhythmik and Seaton are very hard to find used in
Canada, and I was not willing to pay 30 points on the Canada US dollar
difference, plus shipping, customs and duties on them for new ones. I did manage
to find a used Seaton Submersive for sale; but when I went to hear it, I found out it had
issues with the original smaller Seaton amp it came with clipping. This
was revealed to me by the owner who had the smaller amp exchanged for the larger
Seaton amp. But this meant the condition of the driver's voice coil was
suspect. I passed on it. The only REL sub
I would buy are the older ones Made in the UK. This means their physical
condition would be ?? and repairs would need to be made at a third party repair
shop. So knowing the previous owner/s is important
The Recording
Studio gave me a warranty on the two NOS Dynaudio BM12s. Room B is pretty much complete now as far as
gear goes. Maybe I will I start finishing touches on the actual room.
Would welcome comments from members who are familiar with the various drivers types and amps for subwoofers. (Plate amps versus external ones?)
The Requirement - Two nearfield subs, on both sides of my listening position to be used 50 hz and down. A picture of the space has been uploaded to my virtual system link showing previous subs locations and the current location that is working really well.
So been in research mode reviewing both finished products various brands and the DIY route. Vandersteen was deleted as its design requires one to go through its crossover first before the Music Reference RM10 amp. I discovered that REL have moved operations to China and their former employees in England have started up MJ Acoustics. It remains an option used. JL Audio is powering my sons standalone two woofer box in his vehicle :^).
I have found a local Carpenter / Speaker builder that has a good reputation and builds nice looking boxes, lots of finishes to spec. He could do the whole thing or I would assemble the Driver and Plate Amp to the boxes he builds. Seems like a plug and play thing, no brainer ? Am I wrong ? This would make the Rythmik products very attractive - if not for our dollar, shipping customs, etc... :^(
on a sidenote
As a url link happy forum poster I have been told by Audiogon that the links in my thread here will be restored so they work. Its on the schedule. But the main forums are the priority understandably.
A big thank you to Tammy and the AudioGon staff team (web developers) for helping me to get my virtual system under control. The new format for some reason caused it to explode - some entries and pictures were repeated as many as 20 times. My virtual systems page has been edited and cleaned up.
As a poster who really likes to include links and pictures in his posts; I am hoping the (url link) feature is restored here, along with the ability to see the previous url links, from previous posts, mine and others. Happy Listening
Have any audiogon members with virtual systems, checked out their virtual system on the new Beta system going live at the end of the month ? Those who happen to come upon mine, if you can find it, will not be faulted for thinking they have entered into the Dog World Forum.
Yup - its true. Seems my Bud Koaltar is now my main system page and I can't move him. Sort of like walking him sometimes. I think someone on the Audiogon staff likes dogs. Cool. Some of the emails between us were very funny - lol. You may have noticed my last few pic links on this thread were from Google and not Audiogon. I love pictures to make a point. The Beta Virtual System has not only made Koaltar the Alpha over me; its also duplicated the many attachments I stored there which were sorted into categories to help with posts on forums. :^(
Bdp24 - One of the great things about the LFT is it's main panel reproducing such a large portion of the sound of music, without a x/o in the 275Hz-10kHz range. Yeah. I originally bought the ET speakers for a space in Toronto (born and raised there). I was spending quite a bit of time down there with work and care of elderly parents. The guy I had bought my ET Lft8a from was living in a place with a shared thin wall to the neighbor. He had to disconnect the woofers at night when listening and the reason he was selling them. This (listening without the woofers) would not have been possible without the main & tweeter panels reproducing so much of the music as you say Eric. They sounded so good down there that I had to bring them home to hear. Everything ends up going through Room A with me :^) and mostly nearfield. That Room A has not only probably (so far) saved my marriage, but also thousands and thousands of audiophile dollars. When you have a dedicated space ,and you get the audiophile itch; all you have to do is move the speakers around and you are saying - Holy crap what a difference (maybe good - maybe bad) lol ... if good .....you are set for the next few months. Get bored again ...move the speakers placements to the other end of the room. I did this for 10 years ! hell maybe more. All my audio buddies were frequent flyers with speaker wires, interconnects, amps, what have you.... All I did was move the speakers around ! Makes you realize very quickly what the most important thing is in an audio room. The Room. well ..plus the truntable with it fragile wires. The speakers, amps moved....The TT, its wires, preamp stayed put. Never put your TT in the a corner....
It also makes you realize never finish a room acoustically without your speakers in the Room first. Some guys build these elaborate empty rooms, and they have no idea what speakers are going in ---- can you believe it ? Hell , the Matrix 800's affect the sonics of a room just by the space they take up.
Bdp24 - I play my 57's with the back grill and burlap & felt removed. Yeah - Lots of opinions on this one Eric :^)
from the web. Just a few for fun .......
"According to Peter Walker, the damping was put there primarily to control the Q of the fundamental bass resonance. He didn't seem happy with the idea of removing it."
"IMO, there are no real tweaks to make the Quad ESL perform better. Yes, they can be elevated from the floor to get a more realistic soundstage. This tweak will also give you better mid-bass. The middle of the treble panel should be at ear height.
There are two places with damping material: there are some layers of felt behind the treble panel (the element in the middle) which is there to damp the main resonance of this panel. This resonance is out of the pass band but may be exited by the bass panels and can cause the treble panel dustcover to rattle. This felt should not be removed. Then there is a layer of cloth on the back grill of the speaker which is there to lower the Q of the bass panel resonance. Depending on the room and the state that the ESLs are in, removing this cloth may "improve" bass response or not."
"Dustcovers have nothing to do with it, they are more or less acoustically transparent."
"I think the best way to get the most out of your Quads is to first make sure they are operating in good order and second to move them off the floor and experiment with the proper setup for your room/listening position. Another tweak may be to play them without the front grill."
*****************
on a side note Martin Logans have the cool factor of the see through panel. Some think they actually sound better with backing installed depending on placement. But then the visual cool - they lose. Eric - your ET LFT8b's same story. Have you ever thought of ordering the 8a panels from Bruce, swapping them in and hearing what they sound like ? The ET LFT8 speakers definitely have the visual cool.
Some Facts, some Observations, some Fun
Quad 57 Frequency response From the Quad 57 manual - New pair of 57's. 45hz - 18khz Rate of attenuation outside band asymptotic is 18 db / 8ve
Now if we were to assume:
1) One has properly functioning panels.
2) A room that lets them breathe away from the front wall plus angling flexibility. This is very important with the recessed tweeter panel between the bass panels. A total opposite design to the tweeter on top of speaker.
3) An amplifier that deals with the speakers unique very high impedance for Bass, and very low impedance for treble. Quad ESL Impedance
4) The Person's hearing ability still goes to 18 khz ? Btw - One can test their own hearing here with this really fun youtube. How good can one hear HF ?
IMO - I think if a person can put check marks on all of the four points above, then these speakers are da bomb.....with a nearfield sub/s :^)
But as one can see many hurdles to cross - Oh no ....I forgot one - maybe the biggest one - WAF.
Bdp24 - I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad. Hi Eric, I am anxious to have you hear music with the RM10, and a single pair of your quads. Hurry up, move house and buy an RM10 already ! lol
For those like I that run their 57's naked; this is the material recommended by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions if you are worried about children, pets or a clumsy you ....and the voltage involved.
For those reading that might be thinking what all the fuss is about ?
A pic of one of my 57 speakers. You need to keep your body parts away from the panels that the bottom white wires go to. The tweeter panel can be seen in the middle surrounded by two bass panels. This is direct voltage. The only thing in front of the panels after you remove the protective screens, is a saran wrap like clear dust cover.
Bdp24 - There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain. Tweeter
that's $1600 cdn dollars.
I make an assumption that not many in the UK have heard the RM10/Quad 57 combo.
Roger should take a business trip to the UK packing a couple RM10's. Visit a few Quad 57 owners.
Bdp24 - I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad. Hi Eric, I am anxious to have you hear music with the RM10, and a single pair of your quads. Hurry up, move house and buy an RM10 already ! lol
For those like I that run their 57's naked; this is the material recommended by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions if you are worried about children, pets or a clumsy you ....and the voltage involved.
For those reading that might be thinking what all the fuss is about ?
A pic of one of my 57 speakers. You need to keep your body parts away from the panels that the bottom white wires go to. The tweeter panel can be seen in the middle surrounded by two bass panels. This is direct voltage. The only thing in front of the panels after you remove the protective screens, is a saran wrap like clear dust cover.
Bdp24 - There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain. Tweeter
that's $1600 cdn dollars.
I make an assumption that not many in the UK have heard the RM10/Quad 57 combo.
Roger should take a business trip to the UK packing a couple RM10's. Visit a few Quad 57 owners.
Bdp24 - I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad. Hi Eric, I am anxious to have you hear music with the RM10, and a single pair of your quads. Hurry up, move house and buy an RM10 already ! lol
For those like I that run their 57's naked; this is the material recommended by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions if you are worried about children, pets or a clumsy you ....and the voltage involved.
For those reading that might be thinking what all the fuss is about ?
A pic of one of my 57 speakers. You need to keep your body parts away from the panels that the bottom white wires go to. The tweeter panel can be seen in the middle surrounded by two bass panels. This is direct voltage. The only thing in front of the panels after you remove the protective screens, is a saran wrap like clear dust cover.
Bdp24 - There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain. Tweeter
that's $1600 cdn dollars.
I make an assumption that not many in the UK have heard the RM10/Quad 57 combo.
Roger should take a business trip to the UK packing a couple RM10's. Visit a few Quad 57 owners.
Bdp24 - I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad. Hi Eric, I am anxious to have you hear music with the RM10, and a single pair of your quads. Hurry up, move house and buy an RM10 already ! lol
For those like I that run their 57's naked; this is the material recommended by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions if you are worried about children, pets or a clumsy you ....and the voltage involved.
For those reading that might be thinking what all the fuss is about ?
A pic of one of my 57 speakers. You need to keep your body parts away from the panels that the bottom white wires go to. The tweeter panel can be seen in the middle surrounded by two bass panels. This is direct voltage. The only thing in front of the panels after you remove the protective screens, is a saran wrap like clear dust cover.
Bdp24 - There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain. Tweeter
that's $1600 cdn dollars.
I make an assumption that not many in the UK have heard the RM10/Quad 57 combo.
Roger should take a business trip to the UK packing a couple RM10's. Visit a few Quad 57 owners.
Bdp24 - I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad. Hi Eric, I am anxious to have you hear music with the RM10, and a single pair of your quads. Hurry up, move house and buy an RM10 already ! lol
For those like I that run their 57's naked; this is the material recommended by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions if you are worried about children, pets or a clumsy you ....and the voltage involved.
For those reading that might be thinking what all the fuss is about ?
A pic of one of my 57 speakers. You need to keep your body parts away from the panels that the bottom white wires go to. The tweeter panel can be seen in the middle surrounded by two bass panels. This is direct voltage. The only thing in front of the panels after you remove the protective screens, is a saran wrap like clear dust cover.
Bdp24 - There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain. Tweeter
that's $1600 cdn dollars.
I make an assumption that not many in the UK have heard the RM10/Quad 57 combo.
Roger should take a business trip to the UK packing a couple RM10's. Visit a few Quad 57 owners.
my bdp24 name comes from my favorite drumset finish and bass drum size, Black Diamond Pearl and 24".
:^) nice
Very interesting post Eric. Thanks for sharing with us here. Wanted to touch on a couple of your points.
I put the bottom pair raised up so the middle of the panel was 36" off the floor, with the upper panel right above the bottom, almost touching. My single pair are 27 inches off the ground. That puts the middle of the panels at 42" high. They are pointed straight and angled at my shoulders in that room. They are on Arcici black stands which sit on the black concrete bricks. A total WAF design........
Many found the very top of the speaker lacking (including Mark Levinson, who added a Decca tweeter to the stacked panels in his HDQ loudspeaker), so John did some measuring (he was an old-school EE type). He attributed the falling response to the narrow strip in the middle of the tweeter panel. Everyone thinks the 57 is a two-way design, but it's not, it's a three way. The highest frequencies emanate from only the very center of the tweeter panel, which because of it's smaller radiating surface doesn't provide as much output as the rest of the tweeter panel does for the lower highs. So John altered the x/o, boosting the output of the ultra-highs, which elevates and extends the high end of the speaker. Interesting comment about Mark Levinson. So I was thinking about this one because it comes up a lot like the bass bottom octave issue. I have gone through a bunch of amps with the 57's including Quads' own amp/preamp combo (SS). None of the SS amps allowed me to get away without having to add in an external tweeter. I was using an external dome tweeter to which you could add or take away resistors. You tuned it by - adding resistors (it became less prominent) or removing resistors (to make it more noticeable) This tweeter actually worked really well with the DM70's, Their ESL panel is a thin design, and especially if they are placed on the floor, the speaker is not high enough to your ears. Here is a pic of the B&W DM70 ESL speaker with that external tweeter I was using.
It is not until I decided one day to just try my RM9 with the 57's - very carefully to not damage them - that I heard some magic happen. This got me very curious, I did research and this is what led me to Roger's RM10. I had no idea at the time that the RM10 he developed was done so with 57's. The speaker and its role in the RM10 amp design is discussed in the RM10 owners manual. But what did Roger in using the Quad 57 as his model for the RM10, do to that amp, that no longer requires me to use an external tweeter ? That is the Question for me ? I am really happy with the HF output with the RM10. I also believe the height I have them at - 42 inches at the mid panel - has something to do with this as well.
I listen to a lot of music with vocals, and the Quads are still unequalled at reproducing them. Baroque is my most listened to Classical, also well served by Quads. But they just don't cut it with AC/DC, at least not for long! Baroque
About an hour long. Those reading if you let this play on your computer in the background as you do other stuff. At or away from your computer. I bet you will probably be in a better frame of mind by the end.
Your good results with nearfield subs has me interested in trying it myself Chris. I'm going to put the OB's by the speakers and the sealed Rythmiks by the listening position. I'll let you know how it works for me!---Eric. Really looking forward to hearing about how it goes.
my bdp24 name comes from my favorite drumset finish and bass drum size, Black Diamond Pearl and 24".
:^) nice
Very interesting post Eric. Thanks for sharing with us here. Wanted to touch on a couple of your points.
I put the bottom pair raised up so the middle of the panel was 36" off the floor, with the upper panel right above the bottom, almost touching. My single pair are 27 inches off the ground. That puts the middle of the panels at 42" high. They are pointed straight and angled at my shoulders in that room. They are on Arcici black stands which sit on the black concrete bricks. A total WAF design........
Many found the very top of the speaker lacking (including Mark Levinson, who added a Decca tweeter to the stacked panels in his HDQ loudspeaker), so John did some measuring (he was an old-school EE type). He attributed the falling response to the narrow strip in the middle of the tweeter panel. Everyone thinks the 57 is a two-way design, but it's not, it's a three way. The highest frequencies emanate from only the very center of the tweeter panel, which because of it's smaller radiating surface doesn't provide as much output as the rest of the tweeter panel does for the lower highs. So John altered the x/o, boosting the output of the ultra-highs, which elevates and extends the high end of the speaker. Interesting comment about Mark Levinson. So I was thinking about this one because it comes up a lot like the bass bottom octave issue. I have gone through a bunch of amps with the 57's including Quads' own amp/preamp combo (SS). None of the SS amps allowed me to get away without having to add in an external tweeter. I was using an external dome tweeter to which you could add or take away resistors. You tuned it by - adding resistors (it became less prominent) or removing resistors (to make it more noticeable) This tweeter actually worked really well with the DM70's, Their ESL panel is a thin design, and especially if they are placed on the floor, the speaker is not high enough to your ears. Here is a pic of the B&W DM70 ESL speaker with that external tweeter I was using.
It is not until I decided one day to just try my RM9 with the 57's - very carefully to not damage them - that I heard some magic happen. This got me very curious, I did research and this is what led me to Roger's RM10. I had no idea at the time that the RM10 he developed was done so with 57's. The speaker and its role in the RM10 amp design is discussed in the RM10 owners manual. But what did Roger in using the Quad 57 as his model for the RM10, do to that amp, that no longer requires me to use an external tweeter ? That is the Question for me ? I am really happy with the HF output with the RM10. I also believe the height I have them at - 42 inches at the mid panel - has something to do with this as well.
I listen to a lot of music with vocals, and the Quads are still unequalled at reproducing them. Baroque is my most listened to Classical, also well served by Quads. But they just don't cut it with AC/DC, at least not for long! Baroque
About an hour long. Those reading if you let this play on your computer in the background as you do other stuff. At or away from your computer. I bet you will probably be in a better frame of mind by the end.
Your good results with nearfield subs has me interested in trying it myself Chris. I'm going to put the OB's by the speakers and the sealed Rythmiks by the listening position. I'll let you know how it works for me!---Eric. Really looking forward to hearing about how it goes.
my bdp24 name comes from my favorite drumset finish and bass drum size, Black Diamond Pearl and 24".
:^) nice
Very interesting post Eric. Thanks for sharing with us here. Wanted to touch on a couple of your points.
I put the bottom pair raised up so the middle of the panel was 36" off the floor, with the upper panel right above the bottom, almost touching. My single pair are 27 inches off the ground. That puts the middle of the panels at 42" high. They are pointed straight and angled at my shoulders in that room. They are on Arcici black stands which sit on the black concrete bricks. A total WAF design........
Many found the very top of the speaker lacking (including Mark Levinson, who added a Decca tweeter to the stacked panels in his HDQ loudspeaker), so John did some measuring (he was an old-school EE type). He attributed the falling response to the narrow strip in the middle of the tweeter panel. Everyone thinks the 57 is a two-way design, but it's not, it's a three way. The highest frequencies emanate from only the very center of the tweeter panel, which because of it's smaller radiating surface doesn't provide as much output as the rest of the tweeter panel does for the lower highs. So John altered the x/o, boosting the output of the ultra-highs, which elevates and extends the high end of the speaker. Interesting comment about Mark Levinson. So I was thinking about this one because it comes up a lot like the bass bottom octave issue. I have gone through a bunch of amps with the 57's including Quads' own amp/preamp combo (SS). None of the SS amps allowed me to get away without having to add in an external tweeter. I was using an external dome tweeter to which you could add or take away resistors. You tuned it by - adding resistors (it became less prominent) or removing resistors (to make it more noticeable) This tweeter actually worked really well with the DM70's, Their ESL panel is a thin design, and especially if they are placed on the floor, the speaker is not high enough to your ears. Here is a pic of the B&W DM70 ESL speaker with that external tweeter I was using.
It is not until I decided one day to just try my RM9 with the 57's - very carefully to not damage them - that I heard some magic happen. This got me very curious, I did research and this is what led me to Roger's RM10. I had no idea at the time that the RM10 he developed was done so with 57's. The speaker and its role in the RM10 amp design is discussed in the RM10 owners manual. But what did Roger in using the Quad 57 as his model for the RM10, do to that amp, that no longer requires me to use an external tweeter ? That is the Question for me ? I am really happy with the HF output with the RM10. I also believe the height I have them at - 42 inches at the mid panel - has something to do with this as well.
I listen to a lot of music with vocals, and the Quads are still unequalled at reproducing them. Baroque is my most listened to Classical, also well served by Quads. But they just don't cut it with AC/DC, at least not for long! Baroque
About an hour long. Those reading if you let this play on your computer in the background as you do other stuff. At or away from your computer. I bet you will probably be in a better frame of mind by the end.
Your good results with nearfield subs has me interested in trying it myself Chris. I'm going to put the OB's by the speakers and the sealed Rythmiks by the listening position. I'll let you know how it works for me!---Eric. Really looking forward to hearing about how it goes.
my bdp24 name comes from my favorite drumset finish and bass drum size, Black Diamond Pearl and 24".
:^) nice
Very interesting post Eric. Thanks for sharing with us here. Wanted to touch on a couple of your points.
I put the bottom pair raised up so the middle of the panel was 36" off the floor, with the upper panel right above the bottom, almost touching. My single pair are 27 inches off the ground. That puts the middle of the panels at 42" high. They are pointed straight and angled at my shoulders in that room. They are on Arcici black stands which sit on the black concrete bricks. A total WAF design........
Many found the very top of the speaker lacking (including Mark Levinson, who added a Decca tweeter to the stacked panels in his HDQ loudspeaker), so John did some measuring (he was an old-school EE type). He attributed the falling response to the narrow strip in the middle of the tweeter panel. Everyone thinks the 57 is a two-way design, but it's not, it's a three way. The highest frequencies emanate from only the very center of the tweeter panel, which because of it's smaller radiating surface doesn't provide as much output as the rest of the tweeter panel does for the lower highs. So John altered the x/o, boosting the output of the ultra-highs, which elevates and extends the high end of the speaker. Interesting comment about Mark Levinson. So I was thinking about this one because it comes up a lot like the bass bottom octave issue. I have gone through a bunch of amps with the 57's including Quads' own amp/preamp combo (SS). None of the SS amps allowed me to get away without having to add in an external tweeter. I was using an external dome tweeter to which you could add or take away resistors. You tuned it by - adding resistors (it became less prominent) or removing resistors (to make it more noticeable) This tweeter actually worked really well with the DM70's, Their ESL panel is a thin design, and especially if they are placed on the floor, the speaker is not high enough to your ears. Here is a pic of the B&W DM70 ESL speaker with that external tweeter I was using.
It is not until I decided one day to just try my RM9 with the 57's - very carefully to not damage them - that I heard some magic happen. This got me very curious, I did research and this is what led me to Roger's RM10. I had no idea at the time that the RM10 he developed was done so with 57's. The speaker and its role in the RM10 amp design is discussed in the RM10 owners manual. But what did Roger in using the Quad 57 as his model for the RM10, do to that amp, that no longer requires me to use an external tweeter ? That is the Question for me ? I am really happy with the HF output with the RM10. I also believe the height I have them at - 42 inches at the mid panel - has something to do with this as well.
I listen to a lot of music with vocals, and the Quads are still unequalled at reproducing them. Baroque is my most listened to Classical, also well served by Quads. But they just don't cut it with AC/DC, at least not for long! Baroque
About an hour long. Those reading if you let this play on your computer in the background as you do other stuff. At or away from your computer. I bet you will probably be in a better frame of mind by the end.
Your good results with nearfield subs has me interested in trying it myself Chris. I'm going to put the OB's by the speakers and the sealed Rythmiks by the listening position. I'll let you know how it works for me!---Eric. Really looking forward to hearing about how it goes.
my bdp24 name comes from my favorite drumset finish and bass drum size, Black Diamond Pearl and 24".
:^) nice
Very interesting post Eric. Thanks for sharing with us here. Wanted to touch on a couple of your points.
I put the bottom pair raised up so the middle of the panel was 36" off the floor, with the upper panel right above the bottom, almost touching. My single pair are 27 inches off the ground. That puts the middle of the panels at 42" high. They are pointed straight and angled at my shoulders in that room. They are on Arcici black stands which sit on the black concrete bricks. A total WAF design........
Many found the very top of the speaker lacking (including Mark Levinson, who added a Decca tweeter to the stacked panels in his HDQ loudspeaker), so John did some measuring (he was an old-school EE type). He attributed the falling response to the narrow strip in the middle of the tweeter panel. Everyone thinks the 57 is a two-way design, but it's not, it's a three way. The highest frequencies emanate from only the very center of the tweeter panel, which because of it's smaller radiating surface doesn't provide as much output as the rest of the tweeter panel does for the lower highs. So John altered the x/o, boosting the output of the ultra-highs, which elevates and extends the high end of the speaker. Interesting comment about Mark Levinson. So I was thinking about this one because it comes up a lot like the bass bottom octave issue. I have gone through a bunch of amps with the 57's including Quads' own amp/preamp combo (SS). None of the SS amps allowed me to get away without having to add in an external tweeter. I was using an external dome tweeter to which you could add or take away resistors. You tuned it by - adding resistors (it became less prominent) or removing resistors (to make it more noticeable) This tweeter actually worked really well with the DM70's, Their ESL panel is a thin design, and especially if they are placed on the floor, the speaker is not high enough to your ears. Here is a pic of the B&W DM70 ESL speaker with that external tweeter I was using.
It is not until I decided one day to just try my RM9 with the 57's - very carefully to not damage them - that I heard some magic happen. This got me very curious, I did research and this is what led me to Roger's RM10. I had no idea at the time that the RM10 he developed was done so with 57's. The speaker and its role in the RM10 amp design is discussed in the RM10 owners manual. But what did Roger in using the Quad 57 as his model for the RM10, do to that amp, that no longer requires me to use an external tweeter ? That is the Question for me ? I am really happy with the HF output with the RM10. I also believe the height I have them at - 42 inches at the mid panel - has something to do with this as well.
I listen to a lot of music with vocals, and the Quads are still unequalled at reproducing them. Baroque is my most listened to Classical, also well served by Quads. But they just don't cut it with AC/DC, at least not for long! Baroque
About an hour long. Those reading if you let this play on your computer in the background as you do other stuff. At or away from your computer. I bet you will probably be in a better frame of mind by the end.
Your good results with nearfield subs has me interested in trying it myself Chris. I'm going to put the OB's by the speakers and the sealed Rythmiks by the listening position. I'll let you know how it works for me!---Eric. Really looking forward to hearing about how it goes.
my bdp24 name comes from my favorite drumset finish and bass drum size, Black Diamond Pearl and 24".
:^) nice
Very interesting post Eric. Thanks for sharing with us here. Wanted to touch on a couple of your points.
I put the bottom pair raised up so the middle of the panel was 36" off the floor, with the upper panel right above the bottom, almost touching. My single pair are 27 inches off the ground. That puts the middle of the panels at 42" high. They are pointed straight and angled at my shoulders in that room. They are on Arcici black stands which sit on the black concrete bricks. A total WAF design........
Many found the very top of the speaker lacking (including Mark Levinson, who added a Decca tweeter to the stacked panels in his HDQ loudspeaker), so John did some measuring (he was an old-school EE type). He attributed the falling response to the narrow strip in the middle of the tweeter panel. Everyone thinks the 57 is a two-way design, but it's not, it's a three way. The highest frequencies emanate from only the very center of the tweeter panel, which because of it's smaller radiating surface doesn't provide as much output as the rest of the tweeter panel does for the lower highs. So John altered the x/o, boosting the output of the ultra-highs, which elevates and extends the high end of the speaker. Interesting comment about Mark Levinson. So I was thinking about this one because it comes up a lot like the bass bottom octave issue. I have gone through a bunch of amps with the 57's including Quads' own amp/preamp combo (SS). None of the SS amps allowed me to get away without having to add in an external tweeter. I was using an external dome tweeter to which you could add or take away resistors. You tuned it by - adding resistors (it became less prominent) or removing resistors (to make it more noticeable) This tweeter actually worked really well with the DM70's, Their ESL panel is a thin design, and especially if they are placed on the floor, the speaker is not high enough to your ears. Here is a pic of the B&W DM70 ESL speaker with that external tweeter I was using.
It is not until I decided one day to just try my RM9 with the 57's - very carefully to not damage them - that I heard some magic happen. This got me very curious, I did research and this is what led me to Roger's RM10. I had no idea at the time that the RM10 he developed was done so with 57's. The speaker and its role in the RM10 amp design is discussed in the RM10 owners manual. But what did Roger in using the Quad 57 as his model for the RM10, do to that amp, that no longer requires me to use an external tweeter ? That is the Question for me ? I am really happy with the HF output with the RM10. I also believe the height I have them at - 42 inches at the mid panel - has something to do with this as well.
I listen to a lot of music with vocals, and the Quads are still unequalled at reproducing them. Baroque is my most listened to Classical, also well served by Quads. But they just don't cut it with AC/DC, at least not for long! Baroque
About an hour long. Those reading if you let this play on your computer in the background as you do other stuff. At or away from your computer. I bet you will probably be in a better frame of mind by the end.
Your good results with nearfield subs has me interested in trying it myself Chris. I'm going to put the OB's by the speakers and the sealed Rythmiks by the listening position. I'll let you know how it works for me!---Eric. Really looking forward to hearing about how it goes.
my bdp24 name comes from my favorite drumset finish and bass drum size, Black Diamond Pearl and 24".
:^) nice
Very interesting post Eric. Thanks for sharing with us here. Wanted to touch on a couple of your points.
I put the bottom pair raised up so the middle of the panel was 36" off the floor, with the upper panel right above the bottom, almost touching. My single pair are 27 inches off the ground. That puts the middle of the panels at 42" high. They are pointed straight and angled at my shoulders in that room. They are on Arcici black stands which sit on the black concrete bricks. A total WAF design........
Many found the very top of the speaker lacking (including Mark Levinson, who added a Decca tweeter to the stacked panels in his HDQ loudspeaker), so John did some measuring (he was an old-school EE type). He attributed the falling response to the narrow strip in the middle of the tweeter panel. Everyone thinks the 57 is a two-way design, but it's not, it's a three way. The highest frequencies emanate from only the very center of the tweeter panel, which because of it's smaller radiating surface doesn't provide as much output as the rest of the tweeter panel does for the lower highs. So John altered the x/o, boosting the output of the ultra-highs, which elevates and extends the high end of the speaker. Interesting comment about Mark Levinson. So I was thinking about this one because it comes up a lot like the bass bottom octave issue. I have gone through a bunch of amps with the 57's including Quads' own amp/preamp combo (SS). None of the SS amps allowed me to get away without having to add in an external tweeter. I was using an external dome tweeter to which you could add or take away resistors. You tuned it by - adding resistors (it became less prominent) or removing resistors (to make it more noticeable) This tweeter actually worked really well with the DM70's, Their ESL panel is a thin design, and especially if they are placed on the floor, the speaker is not high enough to your ears. Here is a pic of the B&W DM70 ESL speaker with that external tweeter I was using.
It is not until I decided one day to just try my RM9 with the 57's - very carefully to not damage them - that I heard some magic happen. This got me very curious, I did research and this is what led me to Roger's RM10. I had no idea at the time that the RM10 he developed was done so with 57's. The speaker and its role in the RM10 amp design is discussed in the RM10 owners manual. But what did Roger in using the Quad 57 as his model for the RM10, do to that amp, that no longer requires me to use an external tweeter ? That is the Question for me ? I am really happy with the HF output with the RM10. I also believe the height I have them at - 42 inches at the mid panel - has something to do with this as well.
I listen to a lot of music with vocals, and the Quads are still unequalled at reproducing them. Baroque is my most listened to Classical, also well served by Quads. But they just don't cut it with AC/DC, at least not for long! Baroque
About an hour long. Those reading if you let this play on your computer in the background as you do other stuff. At or away from your computer. I bet you will probably be in a better frame of mind by the end.
Your good results with nearfield subs has me interested in trying it myself Chris. I'm going to put the OB's by the speakers and the sealed Rythmiks by the listening position. I'll let you know how it works for me!---Eric. Really looking forward to hearing about how it goes.
This was all part of the previous post - if u can believe it. :^( So I made it separate.
Got my wish and was able play the role of Audiophile last Saturday with the Quads and Sub - using music to listen to my gear :^)
Couple music selections to help with set up and to test integration of sub with the 57's. All contain Female voices - coincidence ?
Patricia Barber - Companion - must be the live version. Whole album works but look out for the 2:38 mark of Let It Rain. If you are still using the screens on the Quads - prepare for rattling and remove after. :^) I have this one in CD and 15 IPS tape format. The bass output here affects both the Quads low and where the Sub kicks in at 50 hz. and is therefore an excellent spot to tested out the blending .
Once when this song was on in Room A - OTL's with previous 801's. The OTL manufacturer was sitting in my chair. It was louder than normal. The OTL's were plugged into a spare 15 amp wall outlet - other amps not being used, were plugged into the dedicated outlets. When 2:38 came on there was the first bass note, then a momentary lapse of silence (a second), like a glitch. There was not enough juice for the amps to generate the bass notes ! The 801 bass drivers went silent for a second! A first time for him and me. More dedicated outlets went in after that on that part of the wall.
Cowboy Junkies - At the End of Paths Taken
Lorde - Hey, why listen to electronic low bass test tones on a cd, when you can hear real cool electronic music instead. And listen in this case to the lyrics as well , in order get an idea of where the younger generation's heads are at.
All three albums provide so much bass through the Quads 57 (seven feet out) and the Rm10 amp without the sub, that you may feel no more is required and are satisfied. This is the exact scenario you want when bringing in a sub. This is when the sub will prove its worth for the bottom octave only.
The sub is in nearfield crossed over at 50hz...... On the sub's volume dial - are positions that go from 1 -10 - it is set at "2". That is what a sub in nearfield does for you with the 57's in this room.
This was all part of the previous post - if u can believe it. :^( So I made it separate.
Got my wish and was able play the role of Audiophile last Saturday with the Quads and Sub - using music to listen to my gear :^)
Couple music selections to help with set up and to test integration of sub with the 57's. All contain Female voices - coincidence ?
Patricia Barber - Companion - must be the live version. Whole album works but look out for the 2:38 mark of Let It Rain. If you are still using the screens on the Quads - prepare for rattling and remove after. :^) I have this one in CD and 15 IPS tape format. The bass output here affects both the Quads low and where the Sub kicks in at 50 hz. and is therefore an excellent spot to tested out the blending .
Once when this song was on in Room A - OTL's with previous 801's. The OTL manufacturer was sitting in my chair. It was louder than normal. The OTL's were plugged into a spare 15 amp wall outlet - other amps not being used, were plugged into the dedicated outlets. When 2:38 came on there was the first bass note, then a momentary lapse of silence (a second), like a glitch. There was not enough juice for the amps to generate the bass notes ! The 801 bass drivers went silent for a second! A first time for him and me. More dedicated outlets went in after that on that part of the wall.
Cowboy Junkies - At the End of Paths Taken
Lorde - Hey, why listen to electronic low bass test tones on a cd, when you can hear real cool electronic music instead. And listen in this case to the lyrics as well , in order get an idea of where the younger generation's heads are at.
All three albums provide so much bass through the Quads 57 (seven feet out) and the Rm10 amp without the sub, that you may feel no more is required and are satisfied. This is the exact scenario you want when bringing in a sub. This is when the sub will prove its worth for the bottom octave only.
The sub is in nearfield crossed over at 50hz...... On the sub's volume dial - are positions that go from 1 -10 - it is set at "2". That is what a sub in nearfield does for you with the 57's in this room.
This was all part of the previous post - if u can believe it. :^( So I made it separate.
Got my wish and was able play the role of Audiophile last Saturday with the Quads and Sub - using music to listen to my gear :^)
Couple music selections to help with set up and to test integration of sub with the 57's. All contain Female voices - coincidence ?
Patricia Barber - Companion - must be the live version. Whole album works but look out for the 2:38 mark of Let It Rain. If you are still using the screens on the Quads - prepare for rattling and remove after. :^) I have this one in CD and 15 IPS tape format. The bass output here affects both the Quads low and where the Sub kicks in at 50 hz. and is therefore an excellent spot to tested out the blending .
Once when this song was on in Room A - OTL's with previous 801's. The OTL manufacturer was sitting in my chair. It was louder than normal. The OTL's were plugged into a spare 15 amp wall outlet - other amps not being used, were plugged into the dedicated outlets. When 2:38 came on there was the first bass note, then a momentary lapse of silence (a second), like a glitch. There was not enough juice for the amps to generate the bass notes ! The 801 bass drivers went silent for a second! A first time for him and me. More dedicated outlets went in after that on that part of the wall.
Cowboy Junkies - At the End of Paths Taken
Lorde - Hey, why listen to electronic low bass test tones on a cd, when you can hear real cool electronic music instead. And listen in this case to the lyrics as well , in order get an idea of where the younger generation's heads are at.
All three albums provide so much bass through the Quads 57 (seven feet out) and the Rm10 amp without the sub, that you may feel no more is required and are satisfied. This is the exact scenario you want when bringing in a sub. This is when the sub will prove its worth for the bottom octave only.
The sub is in nearfield crossed over at 50hz...... On the sub's volume dial - are positions that go from 1 -10 - it is set at "2". That is what a sub in nearfield does for you with the 57's in this room.
This was all part of the previous post - if u can believe it. :^( So I made it separate.
Got my wish and was able play the role of Audiophile last Saturday with the Quads and Sub - using music to listen to my gear :^)
Couple music selections to help with set up and to test integration of sub with the 57's. All contain Female voices - coincidence ?
Patricia Barber - Companion - must be the live version. Whole album works but look out for the 2:38 mark of Let It Rain. If you are still using the screens on the Quads - prepare for rattling and remove after. :^) I have this one in CD and 15 IPS tape format. The bass output here affects both the Quads low and where the Sub kicks in at 50 hz. and is therefore an excellent spot to tested out the blending .
Once when this song was on in Room A - OTL's with previous 801's. The OTL manufacturer was sitting in my chair. It was louder than normal. The OTL's were plugged into a spare 15 amp wall outlet - other amps not being used, were plugged into the dedicated outlets. When 2:38 came on there was the first bass note, then a momentary lapse of silence (a second), like a glitch. There was not enough juice for the amps to generate the bass notes ! The 801 bass drivers went silent for a second! A first time for him and me. More dedicated outlets went in after that on that part of the wall.
Cowboy Junkies - At the End of Paths Taken
Lorde - Hey, why listen to electronic low bass test tones on a cd, when you can hear real cool electronic music instead. And listen in this case to the lyrics as well , in order get an idea of where the younger generation's heads are at.
All three albums provide so much bass through the Quads 57 (seven feet out) and the Rm10 amp without the sub, that you may feel no more is required and are satisfied. This is the exact scenario you want when bringing in a sub. This is when the sub will prove its worth for the bottom octave only.
The sub is in nearfield crossed over at 50hz...... On the sub's volume dial - are positions that go from 1 -10 - it is set at "2". That is what a sub in nearfield does for you with the 57's in this room.
This was all part of the previous post - if u can believe it. :^( So I made it separate.
Got my wish and was able play the role of Audiophile last Saturday with the Quads and Sub - using music to listen to my gear :^)
Couple music selections to help with set up and to test integration of sub with the 57's. All contain Female voices - coincidence ?
Patricia Barber - Companion - must be the live version. Whole album works but look out for the 2:38 mark of Let It Rain. If you are still using the screens on the Quads - prepare for rattling and remove after. :^) I have this one in CD and 15 IPS tape format. The bass output here affects both the Quads low and where the Sub kicks in at 50 hz. and is therefore an excellent spot to tested out the blending .
Once when this song was on in Room A - OTL's with previous 801's. The OTL manufacturer was sitting in my chair. It was louder than normal. The OTL's were plugged into a spare 15 amp wall outlet - other amps not being used, were plugged into the dedicated outlets. When 2:38 came on there was the first bass note, then a momentary lapse of silence (a second), like a glitch. There was not enough juice for the amps to generate the bass notes ! The 801 bass drivers went silent for a second! A first time for him and me. More dedicated outlets went in after that on that part of the wall.
Cowboy Junkies - At the End of Paths Taken
Lorde - Hey, why listen to electronic low bass test tones on a cd, when you can hear real cool electronic music instead. And listen in this case to the lyrics as well , in order get an idea of where the younger generation's heads are at.
All three albums provide so much bass through the Quads 57 (seven feet out) and the Rm10 amp without the sub, that you may feel no more is required and are satisfied. This is the exact scenario you want when bringing in a sub. This is when the sub will prove its worth for the bottom octave only.
The sub is in nearfield crossed over at 50hz...... On the sub's volume dial - are positions that go from 1 -10 - it is set at "2". That is what a sub in nearfield does for you with the 57's in this room.
This was all part of the previous post - if u can believe it. :^( So I made it separate.
Got my wish and was able play the role of Audiophile last Saturday with the Quads and Sub - using music to listen to my gear :^)
Couple music selections to help with set up and to test integration of sub with the 57's. All contain Female voices - coincidence ?
Patricia Barber - Companion - must be the live version. Whole album works but look out for the 2:38 mark of Let It Rain. If you are still using the screens on the Quads - prepare for rattling and remove after. :^) I have this one in CD and 15 IPS tape format. The bass output here affects both the Quads low and where the Sub kicks in at 50 hz. and is therefore an excellent spot to tested out the blending .
Once when this song was on in Room A - OTL's with previous 801's. The OTL manufacturer was sitting in my chair. It was louder than normal. The OTL's were plugged into a spare 15 amp wall outlet - other amps not being used, were plugged into the dedicated outlets. When 2:38 came on there was the first bass note, then a momentary lapse of silence (a second), like a glitch. There was not enough juice for the amps to generate the bass notes ! The 801 bass drivers went silent for a second! A first time for him and me. More dedicated outlets went in after that on that part of the wall.
Cowboy Junkies - At the End of Paths Taken
Lorde - Hey, why listen to electronic low bass test tones on a cd, when you can hear real cool electronic music instead. And listen in this case to the lyrics as well , in order get an idea of where the younger generation's heads are at.
All three albums provide so much bass through the Quads 57 (seven feet out) and the Rm10 amp without the sub, that you may feel no more is required and are satisfied. This is the exact scenario you want when bringing in a sub. This is when the sub will prove its worth for the bottom octave only.
The sub is in nearfield crossed over at 50hz...... On the sub's volume dial - are positions that go from 1 -10 - it is set at "2". That is what a sub in nearfield does for you with the 57's in this room.
This was all part of the previous post - if u can believe it. :^( So I made it separate.
Got my wish and was able play the role of Audiophile last Saturday with the Quads and Sub - using music to listen to my gear :^)
Couple music selections to help with set up and to test integration of sub with the 57's. All contain Female voices - coincidence ?
Patricia Barber - Companion - must be the live version. Whole album works but look out for the 2:38 mark of Let It Rain. If you are still using the screens on the Quads - prepare for rattling and remove after. :^) I have this one in CD and 15 IPS tape format. The bass output here affects both the Quads low and where the Sub kicks in at 50 hz. and is therefore an excellent spot to tested out the blending .
Once when this song was on in Room A - OTL's with previous 801's. The OTL manufacturer was sitting in my chair. It was louder than normal. The OTL's were plugged into a spare 15 amp wall outlet - other amps not being used, were plugged into the dedicated outlets. When 2:38 came on there was the first bass note, then a momentary lapse of silence (a second), like a glitch. There was not enough juice for the amps to generate the bass notes ! The 801 bass drivers went silent for a second! A first time for him and me. More dedicated outlets went in after that on that part of the wall.
Cowboy Junkies - At the End of Paths Taken
Lorde - Hey, why listen to electronic low bass test tones on a cd, when you can hear real cool electronic music instead. And listen in this case to the lyrics as well , in order get an idea of where the younger generation's heads are at.
All three albums provide so much bass through the Quads 57 (seven feet out) and the Rm10 amp without the sub, that you may feel no more is required and are satisfied. This is the exact scenario you want when bringing in a sub. This is when the sub will prove its worth for the bottom octave only.
The sub is in nearfield crossed over at 50hz...... On the sub's volume dial - are positions that go from 1 -10 - it is set at "2". That is what a sub in nearfield does for you with the 57's in this room.
This was all part of the previous post - if u can believe it. :^( So I made it separate.
Got my wish and was able play the role of Audiophile last Saturday with the Quads and Sub - using music to listen to my gear :^)
Couple music selections to help with set up and to test integration of sub with the 57's. All contain Female voices - coincidence ?
Patricia Barber - Companion - must be the live version. Whole album works but look out for the 2:38 mark of Let It Rain. If you are still using the screens on the Quads - prepare for rattling and remove after. :^) I have this one in CD and 15 IPS tape format. The bass output here affects both the Quads low and where the Sub kicks in at 50 hz. and is therefore an excellent spot to tested out the blending .
Once when this song was on in Room A - OTL's with previous 801's. The OTL manufacturer was sitting in my chair. It was louder than normal. The OTL's were plugged into a spare 15 amp wall outlet - other amps not being used, were plugged into the dedicated outlets. When 2:38 came on there was the first bass note, then a momentary lapse of silence (a second), like a glitch. There was not enough juice for the amps to generate the bass notes ! The 801 bass drivers went silent for a second! A first time for him and me. More dedicated outlets went in after that on that part of the wall.
Cowboy Junkies - At the End of Paths Taken
Lorde - Hey, why listen to electronic low bass test tones on a cd, when you can hear real cool electronic music instead. And listen in this case to the lyrics as well , in order get an idea of where the younger generation's heads are at.
All three albums provide so much bass through the Quads 57 (seven feet out) and the Rm10 amp without the sub, that you may feel no more is required and are satisfied. This is the exact scenario you want when bringing in a sub. This is when the sub will prove its worth for the bottom octave only.
The sub is in nearfield crossed over at 50hz...... On the sub's volume dial - are positions that go from 1 -10 - it is set at "2". That is what a sub in nearfield does for you with the 57's in this room.
This was all part of the previous post - if u can believe it. :^( So I made it separate.
Got my wish and was able play the role of Audiophile last Saturday with the Quads and Sub - using music to listen to my gear :^)
Couple music selections to help with set up and to test integration of sub with the 57's. All contain Female voices - coincidence ?
Patricia Barber - Companion - must be the live version. Whole album works but look out for the 2:38 mark of Let It Rain. If you are still using the screens on the Quads - prepare for rattling and remove after. :^) I have this one in CD and 15 IPS tape format. The bass output here affects both the Quads low and where the Sub kicks in at 50 hz. and is therefore an excellent spot to tested out the blending .
Once when this song was on in Room A - OTL's with previous 801's. The OTL manufacturer was sitting in my chair. It was louder than normal. The OTL's were plugged into a spare 15 amp wall outlet - other amps not being used, were plugged into the dedicated outlets. When 2:38 came on there was the first bass note, then a momentary lapse of silence (a second), like a glitch. There was not enough juice for the amps to generate the bass notes ! The 801 bass drivers went silent for a second! A first time for him and me. More dedicated outlets went in after that on that part of the wall.
Cowboy Junkies - At the End of Paths Taken
Lorde - Hey, why listen to electronic low bass test tones on a cd, when you can hear real cool electronic music instead. And listen in this case to the lyrics as well , in order get an idea of where the younger generation's heads are at.
All three albums provide so much bass through the Quads 57 (seven feet out) and the Rm10 amp without the sub, that you may feel no more is required and are satisfied. This is the exact scenario you want when bringing in a sub. This is when the sub will prove its worth for the bottom octave only.
The sub is in nearfield crossed over at 50hz...... On the sub's volume dial - are positions that go from 1 -10 - it is set at "2". That is what a sub in nearfield does for you with the 57's in this room.
Hi Eric - would never have figured out your name from Bdp24 :^)
Firstly what is very important here to me and I thought about it when u said this.
I hope I haven't overstayed my welcome, and that at least some of this rant will be of use (or at least interest!) to you---Eric I appreciate real experiences over all else. it holds a lot of value to me. This thread only a couple years old now and before Audiogon buggered it all up last spring, showed me the views. Back last spring was near 1/2 million views ....i think. So I believe your experiences are of interest to me, and others I am sure. Especially since you show a lot of passion and are not tied to the Audiophilia Biz. :^)
Eric ...Pictures are a real asset. Especially speakers in a room ! Like a thousand words ..... Every experienced audiophile can look at speakers/type in a room and has a good idea how it sounds. Now regarding stacked Quads.
For those on this thread unfamiliar with Quad 57's, and stacked quads I attach some links for reference.
Please notice the positioning of the bottom panels on the first two links compared to last three. The last three links - the bottom panels are setup like stock. On stock form - single pair - this produces music to a listener that imitates sitting in a balcony. So I would expect that the last 3 setups fill in more bottom to top. As you tilt the ground panel forward. Like putting a piece of wood under the third back leg on a stock 57 - imaging rises. You are no longer in the balcony hearing the performance.
Re: Stacked Quads - Peter Walker said in the interview that I linked here that the stacked setup gives 6db more in the bass - and 3 db more everywhere else. So... They don't play any lower, and it is not a straight linear upgrade to the original single 57 output. The prominent midrange where the magic is - loses some of its magic when Quads are stacked. The numbers support this too - 6db versus 3 db. This is just my opinion on it. And only hearing a setup like this once. Now it could of been the room or condition of one or more panels. Too many variables. Readers can see if you look at the links that it is quite the effort to do; Stack Quads 57's. What you are not seeing is the time it took to restore the panels. Very few panels for sale are 100%. If they were the owner would be hanging on to them. imo
For me right now its just not worth acquiring a second pair and sending them to Wayne Picquet for restore. Effort, time and cost. This is mainly because I am able to play my pair in my space (a bigger space than most of those links from what I can tell) with one RM10 at 90 db AVERAGE measured at the chair if I want . This is 10 more db than normal for me with no issues. The sub comes in at a low 50 hz. More on this in a bit.
57's need to be set up in a live room. This is a total opposite to my Room A and experience with John Bowers era matrix 800 series. Those take work and knowledge on room tuning to get right. And fwiw - I am not impressed that B&W unleashes speakers like this to the unsuspecting audiophile. Studios know how to set them up. Audiophiles new to the brand with cash to burn do not. The John Bowers era was all about 2 channel music. Not a fan of the post - John Bowers era.
Re:DM70 Bdp24 - To be honest, I can't imagine why you would be using the woofer in that speaker as a sub for Quads! Eric....To be honest :^) , if you have these two speakers staring at you, in your own space. I can't imagine any red hot blooded audiophile - NOT - trying it out and hearing for themselves. Room B has always been an audio play room of sorts for me. This experiment lasted 3-4 days. Switching polarities on the woofers helped,if I recall?, but am not sure now. The experiment let me hear it for myself.
The DM70 on their own absolutely need to be set up high. The panels at your ear level. This means a lift of one foot minimum. They have a resonating - non matrix box. Up high also makes them less boomy with more bass note articulation. They should also be setup in a larger live room. They don't play any lower than 40 hz just like the Quad 57's, but their lower end is obviously more fuller. So depending on the music you can get away without a sub.
Re: OB sub Bdp24 - Enrico is of course not going to recommend the sub to you (or even mention it), or be able to advise you on it's use. He is involved with Rythmik, a completely separate operation with a different target audience and customer bass (largely Home Theater, most definitely not audiophile. Yeah, I got this message and it is cool. All those in the audio biz all need/have to play within their own silos. he was however helpful.
Re: RM10 Thanks for the insight into the RM10. You have a unique relationship with Roger. I found him very elusive when emailing - I gave up. He's just too far away. It's too bad you haven't heard a single pair of 57's with the RM10 to hear how much output / quality I am getting.
Bdp24 - Yes, he did now recommend a pair of RM-10's. Unfortunately, I had already bought an Atma-Sphere M60! ********************************************* Eric - Sorry for the asterisks - But wanted u to see this in this post - post getting long - what else is new ! Consider something here as I believe it is a big factor in play. The OTL's I owned were 200 wpc. They could not compete in the bass dept with the push pull RM9 in the bass dept. i believe (using OTL's) is a big factor in having to set a higher crossover on subs with 57's. I base this on my own experience and your comments on recommending the use of 80hz and 120 hz crossover points. The bass I found is just more lean with OTL's. I would never go that high a crossover in my room with the Quads and sub.
You may prove my above theory in your own room only, by borrowing 1 or 2 RM10's from your buddy Roger. :^) .....:^)......:^) And this needs to be done in your room only for a direct comparison.
*********************************************
Bdp24 - the OB/Dipole sub needs to be away from the wall behind it, as do all Dipoles, including Quads. They can be right up against a side wall though, or on the floor if placed horizontally.. I can position any way I want in Room B. The 57's are 7 feet out from the front wall right now. I am getting really good results with just one nearfield / conventional sub. The brown chair you see in the pic I linked has seen every side of the space. But the overall music results are best as in the pic. I wish I could get rid of that house support pole - like move it to the left a bit. The brown chair as pictured - for a nearfield sub, has boundaries to the the right of it, That is where the sub is. The staircase, which would be a back wall to it. To the left is open. I realize those OB subs would allow me to try positioning within range of the speakers themselves. But right now Eric, unless you have tried this with a nearfield sub/s, and can provide me with some direct comparison insight; I am staying on this nearfield track for now. Bringing anything new in at this time requires selling existing stuff. That gives one patience and incentive to research this through. If I wasn't getting excellent results with a nearfield sub it would be a different story.
Hi Eric - would never have figured out your name from Bdp24 :^)
Firstly what is very important here to me and I thought about it when u said this.
I hope I haven't overstayed my welcome, and that at least some of this rant will be of use (or at least interest!) to you---Eric I appreciate real experiences over all else. it holds a lot of value to me. This thread only a couple years old now and before Audiogon buggered it all up last spring, showed me the views. Back last spring was near 1/2 million views ....i think. So I believe your experiences are of interest to me, and others I am sure. Especially since you show a lot of passion and are not tied to the Audiophilia Biz. :^)
Eric ...Pictures are a real asset. Especially speakers in a room ! Like a thousand words ..... Every experienced audiophile can look at speakers/type in a room and has a good idea how it sounds. Now regarding stacked Quads.
For those on this thread unfamiliar with Quad 57's, and stacked quads I attach some links for reference.
Please notice the positioning of the bottom panels on the first two links compared to last three. The last three links - the bottom panels are setup like stock. On stock form - single pair - this produces music to a listener that imitates sitting in a balcony. So I would expect that the last 3 setups fill in more bottom to top. As you tilt the ground panel forward. Like putting a piece of wood under the third back leg on a stock 57 - imaging rises. You are no longer in the balcony hearing the performance.
Re: Stacked Quads - Peter Walker said in the interview that I linked here that the stacked setup gives 6db more in the bass - and 3 db more everywhere else. So... They don't play any lower, and it is not a straight linear upgrade to the original single 57 output. The prominent midrange where the magic is - loses some of its magic when Quads are stacked. The numbers support this too - 6db versus 3 db. This is just my opinion on it. And only hearing a setup like this once. Now it could of been the room or condition of one or more panels. Too many variables. Readers can see if you look at the links that it is quite the effort to do; Stack Quads 57's. What you are not seeing is the time it took to restore the panels. Very few panels for sale are 100%. If they were the owner would be hanging on to them. imo
For me right now its just not worth acquiring a second pair and sending them to Wayne Picquet for restore. Effort, time and cost. This is mainly because I am able to play my pair in my space (a bigger space than most of those links from what I can tell) with one RM10 at 90 db AVERAGE measured at the chair if I want . This is 10 more db than normal for me with no issues. The sub comes in at a low 50 hz. More on this in a bit.
57's need to be set up in a live room. This is a total opposite to my Room A and experience with John Bowers era matrix 800 series. Those take work and knowledge on room tuning to get right. And fwiw - I am not impressed that B&W unleashes speakers like this to the unsuspecting audiophile. Studios know how to set them up. Audiophiles new to the brand with cash to burn do not. The John Bowers era was all about 2 channel music. Not a fan of the post - John Bowers era.
Re:DM70 Bdp24 - To be honest, I can't imagine why you would be using the woofer in that speaker as a sub for Quads! Eric....To be honest :^) , if you have these two speakers staring at you, in your own space. I can't imagine any red hot blooded audiophile - NOT - trying it out and hearing for themselves. Room B has always been an audio play room of sorts for me. This experiment lasted 3-4 days. Switching polarities on the woofers helped,if I recall?, but am not sure now. The experiment let me hear it for myself.
The DM70 on their own absolutely need to be set up high. The panels at your ear level. This means a lift of one foot minimum. They have a resonating - non matrix box. Up high also makes them less boomy with more bass note articulation. They should also be setup in a larger live room. They don't play any lower than 40 hz just like the Quad 57's, but their lower end is obviously more fuller. So depending on the music you can get away without a sub.
Re: OB sub Bdp24 - Enrico is of course not going to recommend the sub to you (or even mention it), or be able to advise you on it's use. He is involved with Rythmik, a completely separate operation with a different target audience and customer bass (largely Home Theater, most definitely not audiophile. Yeah, I got this message and it is cool. All those in the audio biz all need/have to play within their own silos. he was however helpful.
Re: RM10 Thanks for the insight into the RM10. You have a unique relationship with Roger. I found him very elusive when emailing - I gave up. He's just too far away. It's too bad you haven't heard a single pair of 57's with the RM10 to hear how much output / quality I am getting.
Bdp24 - Yes, he did now recommend a pair of RM-10's. Unfortunately, I had already bought an Atma-Sphere M60! ********************************************* Eric - Sorry for the asterisks - But wanted u to see this in this post - post getting long - what else is new ! Consider something here as I believe it is a big factor in play. The OTL's I owned were 200 wpc. They could not compete in the bass dept with the push pull RM9 in the bass dept. i believe (using OTL's) is a big factor in having to set a higher crossover on subs with 57's. I base this on my own experience and your comments on recommending the use of 80hz and 120 hz crossover points. The bass I found is just more lean with OTL's. I would never go that high a crossover in my room with the Quads and sub.
You may prove my above theory in your own room only, by borrowing 1 or 2 RM10's from your buddy Roger. :^) .....:^)......:^) And this needs to be done in your room only for a direct comparison.
*********************************************
Bdp24 - the OB/Dipole sub needs to be away from the wall behind it, as do all Dipoles, including Quads. They can be right up against a side wall though, or on the floor if placed horizontally.. I can position any way I want in Room B. The 57's are 7 feet out from the front wall right now. I am getting really good results with just one nearfield / conventional sub. The brown chair you see in the pic I linked has seen every side of the space. But the overall music results are best as in the pic. I wish I could get rid of that house support pole - like move it to the left a bit. The brown chair as pictured - for a nearfield sub, has boundaries to the the right of it, That is where the sub is. The staircase, which would be a back wall to it. To the left is open. I realize those OB subs would allow me to try positioning within range of the speakers themselves. But right now Eric, unless you have tried this with a nearfield sub/s, and can provide me with some direct comparison insight; I am staying on this nearfield track for now. Bringing anything new in at this time requires selling existing stuff. That gives one patience and incentive to research this through. If I wasn't getting excellent results with a nearfield sub it would be a different story.
Hi Eric - would never have figured out your name from Bdp24 :^)
Firstly what is very important here to me and I thought about it when u said this.
I hope I haven't overstayed my welcome, and that at least some of this rant will be of use (or at least interest!) to you---Eric I appreciate real experiences over all else. it holds a lot of value to me. This thread only a couple years old now and before Audiogon buggered it all up last spring, showed me the views. Back last spring was near 1/2 million views ....i think. So I believe your experiences are of interest to me, and others I am sure. Especially since you show a lot of passion and are not tied to the Audiophilia Biz. :^)
Eric ...Pictures are a real asset. Especially speakers in a room ! Like a thousand words ..... Every experienced audiophile can look at speakers/type in a room and has a good idea how it sounds. Now regarding stacked Quads.
For those on this thread unfamiliar with Quad 57's, and stacked quads I attach some links for reference.
Please notice the positioning of the bottom panels on the first two links compared to last three. The last three links - the bottom panels are setup like stock. On stock form - single pair - this produces music to a listener that imitates sitting in a balcony. So I would expect that the last 3 setups fill in more bottom to top. As you tilt the ground panel forward. Like putting a piece of wood under the third back leg on a stock 57 - imaging rises. You are no longer in the balcony hearing the performance.
Re: Stacked Quads - Peter Walker said in the interview that I linked here that the stacked setup gives 6db more in the bass - and 3 db more everywhere else. So... They don't play any lower, and it is not a straight linear upgrade to the original single 57 output. The prominent midrange where the magic is - loses some of its magic when Quads are stacked. The numbers support this too - 6db versus 3 db. This is just my opinion on it. And only hearing a setup like this once. Now it could of been the room or condition of one or more panels. Too many variables. Readers can see if you look at the links that it is quite the effort to do; Stack Quads 57's. What you are not seeing is the time it took to restore the panels. Very few panels for sale are 100%. If they were the owner would be hanging on to them. imo
For me right now its just not worth acquiring a second pair and sending them to Wayne Picquet for restore. Effort, time and cost. This is mainly because I am able to play my pair in my space (a bigger space than most of those links from what I can tell) with one RM10 at 90 db AVERAGE measured at the chair if I want . This is 10 more db than normal for me with no issues. The sub comes in at a low 50 hz. More on this in a bit.
57's need to be set up in a live room. This is a total opposite to my Room A and experience with John Bowers era matrix 800 series. Those take work and knowledge on room tuning to get right. And fwiw - I am not impressed that B&W unleashes speakers like this to the unsuspecting audiophile. Studios know how to set them up. Audiophiles new to the brand with cash to burn do not. The John Bowers era was all about 2 channel music. Not a fan of the post - John Bowers era.
Re:DM70 Bdp24 - To be honest, I can't imagine why you would be using the woofer in that speaker as a sub for Quads! Eric....To be honest :^) , if you have these two speakers staring at you, in your own space. I can't imagine any red hot blooded audiophile - NOT - trying it out and hearing for themselves. Room B has always been an audio play room of sorts for me. This experiment lasted 3-4 days. Switching polarities on the woofers helped,if I recall?, but am not sure now. The experiment let me hear it for myself.
The DM70 on their own absolutely need to be set up high. The panels at your ear level. This means a lift of one foot minimum. They have a resonating - non matrix box. Up high also makes them less boomy with more bass note articulation. They should also be setup in a larger live room. They don't play any lower than 40 hz just like the Quad 57's, but their lower end is obviously more fuller. So depending on the music you can get away without a sub.
Re: OB sub Bdp24 - Enrico is of course not going to recommend the sub to you (or even mention it), or be able to advise you on it's use. He is involved with Rythmik, a completely separate operation with a different target audience and customer bass (largely Home Theater, most definitely not audiophile. Yeah, I got this message and it is cool. All those in the audio biz all need/have to play within their own silos. he was however helpful.
Re: RM10 Thanks for the insight into the RM10. You have a unique relationship with Roger. I found him very elusive when emailing - I gave up. He's just too far away. It's too bad you haven't heard a single pair of 57's with the RM10 to hear how much output / quality I am getting.
Bdp24 - Yes, he did now recommend a pair of RM-10's. Unfortunately, I had already bought an Atma-Sphere M60! ********************************************* Eric - Sorry for the asterisks - But wanted u to see this in this post - post getting long - what else is new ! Consider something here as I believe it is a big factor in play. The OTL's I owned were 200 wpc. They could not compete in the bass dept with the push pull RM9 in the bass dept. i believe (using OTL's) is a big factor in having to set a higher crossover on subs with 57's. I base this on my own experience and your comments on recommending the use of 80hz and 120 hz crossover points. The bass I found is just more lean with OTL's. I would never go that high a crossover in my room with the Quads and sub.
You may prove my above theory in your own room only, by borrowing 1 or 2 RM10's from your buddy Roger. :^) .....:^)......:^) And this needs to be done in your room only for a direct comparison.
*********************************************
Bdp24 - the OB/Dipole sub needs to be away from the wall behind it, as do all Dipoles, including Quads. They can be right up against a side wall though, or on the floor if placed horizontally.. I can position any way I want in Room B. The 57's are 7 feet out from the front wall right now. I am getting really good results with just one nearfield / conventional sub. The brown chair you see in the pic I linked has seen every side of the space. But the overall music results are best as in the pic. I wish I could get rid of that house support pole - like move it to the left a bit. The brown chair as pictured - for a nearfield sub, has boundaries to the the right of it, That is where the sub is. The staircase, which would be a back wall to it. To the left is open. I realize those OB subs would allow me to try positioning within range of the speakers themselves. But right now Eric, unless you have tried this with a nearfield sub/s, and can provide me with some direct comparison insight; I am staying on this nearfield track for now. Bringing anything new in at this time requires selling existing stuff. That gives one patience and incentive to research this through. If I wasn't getting excellent results with a nearfield sub it would be a different story.
Hi Eric - would never have figured out your name from Bdp24 :^)
Firstly what is very important here to me and I thought about it when u said this.
I hope I haven't overstayed my welcome, and that at least some of this rant will be of use (or at least interest!) to you---Eric I appreciate real experiences over all else. it holds a lot of value to me. This thread only a couple years old now and before Audiogon buggered it all up last spring, showed me the views. Back last spring was near 1/2 million views ....i think. So I believe your experiences are of interest to me, and others I am sure. Especially since you show a lot of passion and are not tied to the Audiophilia Biz. :^)
Eric ...Pictures are a real asset. Especially speakers in a room ! Like a thousand words ..... Every experienced audiophile can look at speakers/type in a room and has a good idea how it sounds. Now regarding stacked Quads.
For those on this thread unfamiliar with Quad 57's, and stacked quads I attach some links for reference.
Please notice the positioning of the bottom panels on the first two links compared to last three. The last three links - the bottom panels are setup like stock. On stock form - single pair - this produces music to a listener that imitates sitting in a balcony. So I would expect that the last 3 setups fill in more bottom to top. As you tilt the ground panel forward. Like putting a piece of wood under the third back leg on a stock 57 - imaging rises. You are no longer in the balcony hearing the performance.
Re: Stacked Quads - Peter Walker said in the interview that I linked here that the stacked setup gives 6db more in the bass - and 3 db more everywhere else. So... They don't play any lower, and it is not a straight linear upgrade to the original single 57 output. The prominent midrange where the magic is - loses some of its magic when Quads are stacked. The numbers support this too - 6db versus 3 db. This is just my opinion on it. And only hearing a setup like this once. Now it could of been the room or condition of one or more panels. Too many variables. Readers can see if you look at the links that it is quite the effort to do; Stack Quads 57's. What you are not seeing is the time it took to restore the panels. Very few panels for sale are 100%. If they were the owner would be hanging on to them. imo
For me right now its just not worth acquiring a second pair and sending them to Wayne Picquet for restore. Effort, time and cost. This is mainly because I am able to play my pair in my space (a bigger space than most of those links from what I can tell) with one RM10 at 90 db AVERAGE measured at the chair if I want . This is 10 more db than normal for me with no issues. The sub comes in at a low 50 hz. More on this in a bit.
57's need to be set up in a live room. This is a total opposite to my Room A and experience with John Bowers era matrix 800 series. Those take work and knowledge on room tuning to get right. And fwiw - I am not impressed that B&W unleashes speakers like this to the unsuspecting audiophile. Studios know how to set them up. Audiophiles new to the brand with cash to burn do not. The John Bowers era was all about 2 channel music. Not a fan of the post - John Bowers era.
Re:DM70 Bdp24 - To be honest, I can't imagine why you would be using the woofer in that speaker as a sub for Quads! Eric....To be honest :^) , if you have these two speakers staring at you, in your own space. I can't imagine any red hot blooded audiophile - NOT - trying it out and hearing for themselves. Room B has always been an audio play room of sorts for me. This experiment lasted 3-4 days. Switching polarities on the woofers helped,if I recall?, but am not sure now. The experiment let me hear it for myself.
The DM70 on their own absolutely need to be set up high. The panels at your ear level. This means a lift of one foot minimum. They have a resonating - non matrix box. Up high also makes them less boomy with more bass note articulation. They should also be setup in a larger live room. They don't play any lower than 40 hz just like the Quad 57's, but their lower end is obviously more fuller. So depending on the music you can get away without a sub.
Re: OB sub Bdp24 - Enrico is of course not going to recommend the sub to you (or even mention it), or be able to advise you on it's use. He is involved with Rythmik, a completely separate operation with a different target audience and customer bass (largely Home Theater, most definitely not audiophile. Yeah, I got this message and it is cool. All those in the audio biz all need/have to play within their own silos. he was however helpful.
Re: RM10 Thanks for the insight into the RM10. You have a unique relationship with Roger. I found him very elusive when emailing - I gave up. He's just too far away. It's too bad you haven't heard a single pair of 57's with the RM10 to hear how much output / quality I am getting.
Bdp24 - Yes, he did now recommend a pair of RM-10's. Unfortunately, I had already bought an Atma-Sphere M60! ********************************************* Eric - Sorry for the asterisks - But wanted u to see this in this post - post getting long - what else is new ! Consider something here as I believe it is a big factor in play. The OTL's I owned were 200 wpc. They could not compete in the bass dept with the push pull RM9 in the bass dept. i believe (using OTL's) is a big factor in having to set a higher crossover on subs with 57's. I base this on my own experience and your comments on recommending the use of 80hz and 120 hz crossover points. The bass I found is just more lean with OTL's. I would never go that high a crossover in my room with the Quads and sub.
You may prove my above theory in your own room only, by borrowing 1 or 2 RM10's from your buddy Roger. :^) .....:^)......:^) And this needs to be done in your room only for a direct comparison.
*********************************************
Bdp24 - the OB/Dipole sub needs to be away from the wall behind it, as do all Dipoles, including Quads. They can be right up against a side wall though, or on the floor if placed horizontally.. I can position any way I want in Room B. The 57's are 7 feet out from the front wall right now. I am getting really good results with just one nearfield / conventional sub. The brown chair you see in the pic I linked has seen every side of the space. But the overall music results are best as in the pic. I wish I could get rid of that house support pole - like move it to the left a bit. The brown chair as pictured - for a nearfield sub, has boundaries to the the right of it, That is where the sub is. The staircase, which would be a back wall to it. To the left is open. I realize those OB subs would allow me to try positioning within range of the speakers themselves. But right now Eric, unless you have tried this with a nearfield sub/s, and can provide me with some direct comparison insight; I am staying on this nearfield track for now. Bringing anything new in at this time requires selling existing stuff. That gives one patience and incentive to research this through. If I wasn't getting excellent results with a nearfield sub it would be a different story.
Hi Eric - would never have figured out your name from Bdp24 :^)
Firstly what is very important here to me and I thought about it when u said this.
I hope I haven't overstayed my welcome, and that at least some of this rant will be of use (or at least interest!) to you---Eric I appreciate real experiences over all else. it holds a lot of value to me. This thread only a couple years old now and before Audiogon buggered it all up last spring, showed me the views. Back last spring was near 1/2 million views ....i think. So I believe your experiences are of interest to me, and others I am sure. Especially since you show a lot of passion and are not tied to the Audiophilia Biz. :^)
Eric ...Pictures are a real asset. Especially speakers in a room ! Like a thousand words ..... Every experienced audiophile can look at speakers/type in a room and has a good idea how it sounds. Now regarding stacked Quads.
For those on this thread unfamiliar with Quad 57's, and stacked quads I attach some links for reference.
Please notice the positioning of the bottom panels on the first two links compared to last three. The last three links - the bottom panels are setup like stock. On stock form - single pair - this produces music to a listener that imitates sitting in a balcony. So I would expect that the last 3 setups fill in more bottom to top. As you tilt the ground panel forward. Like putting a piece of wood under the third back leg on a stock 57 - imaging rises. You are no longer in the balcony hearing the performance.
Re: Stacked Quads - Peter Walker said in the interview that I linked here that the stacked setup gives 6db more in the bass - and 3 db more everywhere else. So... They don't play any lower, and it is not a straight linear upgrade to the original single 57 output. The prominent midrange where the magic is - loses some of its magic when Quads are stacked. The numbers support this too - 6db versus 3 db. This is just my opinion on it. And only hearing a setup like this once. Now it could of been the room or condition of one or more panels. Too many variables. Readers can see if you look at the links that it is quite the effort to do; Stack Quads 57's. What you are not seeing is the time it took to restore the panels. Very few panels for sale are 100%. If they were the owner would be hanging on to them. imo
For me right now its just not worth acquiring a second pair and sending them to Wayne Picquet for restore. Effort, time and cost. This is mainly because I am able to play my pair in my space (a bigger space than most of those links from what I can tell) with one RM10 at 90 db AVERAGE measured at the chair if I want . This is 10 more db than normal for me with no issues. The sub comes in at a low 50 hz. More on this in a bit.
57's need to be set up in a live room. This is a total opposite to my Room A and experience with John Bowers era matrix 800 series. Those take work and knowledge on room tuning to get right. And fwiw - I am not impressed that B&W unleashes speakers like this to the unsuspecting audiophile. Studios know how to set them up. Audiophiles new to the brand with cash to burn do not. The John Bowers era was all about 2 channel music. Not a fan of the post - John Bowers era.
Re:DM70 Bdp24 - To be honest, I can't imagine why you would be using the woofer in that speaker as a sub for Quads! Eric....To be honest :^) , if you have these two speakers staring at you, in your own space. I can't imagine any red hot blooded audiophile - NOT - trying it out and hearing for themselves. Room B has always been an audio play room of sorts for me. This experiment lasted 3-4 days. Switching polarities on the woofers helped,if I recall?, but am not sure now. The experiment let me hear it for myself.
The DM70 on their own absolutely need to be set up high. The panels at your ear level. This means a lift of one foot minimum. They have a resonating - non matrix box. Up high also makes them less boomy with more bass note articulation. They should also be setup in a larger live room. They don't play any lower than 40 hz just like the Quad 57's, but their lower end is obviously more fuller. So depending on the music you can get away without a sub.
Re: OB sub Bdp24 - Enrico is of course not going to recommend the sub to you (or even mention it), or be able to advise you on it's use. He is involved with Rythmik, a completely separate operation with a different target audience and customer bass (largely Home Theater, most definitely not audiophile. Yeah, I got this message and it is cool. All those in the audio biz all need/have to play within their own silos. he was however helpful.
Re: RM10 Thanks for the insight into the RM10. You have a unique relationship with Roger. I found him very elusive when emailing - I gave up. He's just too far away. It's too bad you haven't heard a single pair of 57's with the RM10 to hear how much output / quality I am getting.
Bdp24 - Yes, he did now recommend a pair of RM-10's. Unfortunately, I had already bought an Atma-Sphere M60! ********************************************* Eric - Sorry for the asterisks - But wanted u to see this in this post - post getting long - what else is new ! Consider something here as I believe it is a big factor in play. The OTL's I owned were 200 wpc. They could not compete in the bass dept with the push pull RM9 in the bass dept. i believe (using OTL's) is a big factor in having to set a higher crossover on subs with 57's. I base this on my own experience and your comments on recommending the use of 80hz and 120 hz crossover points. The bass I found is just more lean with OTL's. I would never go that high a crossover in my room with the Quads and sub.
You may prove my above theory in your own room only, by borrowing 1 or 2 RM10's from your buddy Roger. :^) .....:^)......:^) And this needs to be done in your room only for a direct comparison.
*********************************************
Bdp24 - the OB/Dipole sub needs to be away from the wall behind it, as do all Dipoles, including Quads. They can be right up against a side wall though, or on the floor if placed horizontally.. I can position any way I want in Room B. The 57's are 7 feet out from the front wall right now. I am getting really good results with just one nearfield / conventional sub. The brown chair you see in the pic I linked has seen every side of the space. But the overall music results are best as in the pic. I wish I could get rid of that house support pole - like move it to the left a bit. The brown chair as pictured - for a nearfield sub, has boundaries to the the right of it, That is where the sub is. The staircase, which would be a back wall to it. To the left is open. I realize those OB subs would allow me to try positioning within range of the speakers themselves. But right now Eric, unless you have tried this with a nearfield sub/s, and can provide me with some direct comparison insight; I am staying on this nearfield track for now. Bringing anything new in at this time requires selling existing stuff. That gives one patience and incentive to research this through. If I wasn't getting excellent results with a nearfield sub it would be a different story.
Hi Eric - would never have figured out your name from Bdp24 :^)
Firstly what is very important here to me and I thought about it when u said this.
I hope I haven't overstayed my welcome, and that at least some of this rant will be of use (or at least interest!) to you---Eric I appreciate real experiences over all else. it holds a lot of value to me. This thread only a couple years old now and before Audiogon buggered it all up last spring, showed me the views. Back last spring was near 1/2 million views ....i think. So I believe your experiences are of interest to me, and others I am sure. Especially since you show a lot of passion and are not tied to the Audiophilia Biz. :^)
Eric ...Pictures are a real asset. Especially speakers in a room ! Like a thousand words ..... Every experienced audiophile can look at speakers/type in a room and has a good idea how it sounds. Now regarding stacked Quads.
For those on this thread unfamiliar with Quad 57's, and stacked quads I attach some links for reference.
Please notice the positioning of the bottom panels on the first two links compared to last three. The last three links - the bottom panels are setup like stock. On stock form - single pair - this produces music to a listener that imitates sitting in a balcony. So I would expect that the last 3 setups fill in more bottom to top. As you tilt the ground panel forward. Like putting a piece of wood under the third back leg on a stock 57 - imaging rises. You are no longer in the balcony hearing the performance.
Re: Stacked Quads - Peter Walker said in the interview that I linked here that the stacked setup gives 6db more in the bass - and 3 db more everywhere else. So... They don't play any lower, and it is not a straight linear upgrade to the original single 57 output. The prominent midrange where the magic is - loses some of its magic when Quads are stacked. The numbers support this too - 6db versus 3 db. This is just my opinion on it. And only hearing a setup like this once. Now it could of been the room or condition of one or more panels. Too many variables. Readers can see if you look at the links that it is quite the effort to do; Stack Quads 57's. What you are not seeing is the time it took to restore the panels. Very few panels for sale are 100%. If they were the owner would be hanging on to them. imo
For me right now its just not worth acquiring a second pair and sending them to Wayne Picquet for restore. Effort, time and cost. This is mainly because I am able to play my pair in my space (a bigger space than most of those links from what I can tell) with one RM10 at 90 db AVERAGE measured at the chair if I want . This is 10 more db than normal for me with no issues. The sub comes in at a low 50 hz. More on this in a bit.
57's need to be set up in a live room. This is a total opposite to my Room A and experience with John Bowers era matrix 800 series. Those take work and knowledge on room tuning to get right. And fwiw - I am not impressed that B&W unleashes speakers like this to the unsuspecting audiophile. Studios know how to set them up. Audiophiles new to the brand with cash to burn do not. The John Bowers era was all about 2 channel music. Not a fan of the post - John Bowers era.
Re:DM70 Bdp24 - To be honest, I can't imagine why you would be using the woofer in that speaker as a sub for Quads! Eric....To be honest :^) , if you have these two speakers staring at you, in your own space. I can't imagine any red hot blooded audiophile - NOT - trying it out and hearing for themselves. Room B has always been an audio play room of sorts for me. This experiment lasted 3-4 days. Switching polarities on the woofers helped,if I recall?, but am not sure now. The experiment let me hear it for myself.
The DM70 on their own absolutely need to be set up high. The panels at your ear level. This means a lift of one foot minimum. They have a resonating - non matrix box. Up high also makes them less boomy with more bass note articulation. They should also be setup in a larger live room. They don't play any lower than 40 hz just like the Quad 57's, but their lower end is obviously more fuller. So depending on the music you can get away without a sub.
Re: OB sub Bdp24 - Enrico is of course not going to recommend the sub to you (or even mention it), or be able to advise you on it's use. He is involved with Rythmik, a completely separate operation with a different target audience and customer bass (largely Home Theater, most definitely not audiophile. Yeah, I got this message and it is cool. All those in the audio biz all need/have to play within their own silos. he was however helpful.
Re: RM10 Thanks for the insight into the RM10. You have a unique relationship with Roger. I found him very elusive when emailing - I gave up. He's just too far away. It's too bad you haven't heard a single pair of 57's with the RM10 to hear how much output / quality I am getting.
Bdp24 - Yes, he did now recommend a pair of RM-10's. Unfortunately, I had already bought an Atma-Sphere M60! ********************************************* Eric - Sorry for the asterisks - But wanted u to see this in this post - post getting long - what else is new ! Consider something here as I believe it is a big factor in play. The OTL's I owned were 200 wpc. They could not compete in the bass dept with the push pull RM9 in the bass dept. i believe (using OTL's) is a big factor in having to set a higher crossover on subs with 57's. I base this on my own experience and your comments on recommending the use of 80hz and 120 hz crossover points. The bass I found is just more lean with OTL's. I would never go that high a crossover in my room with the Quads and sub.
You may prove my above theory in your own room only, by borrowing 1 or 2 RM10's from your buddy Roger. :^) .....:^)......:^) And this needs to be done in your room only for a direct comparison.
*********************************************
Bdp24 - the OB/Dipole sub needs to be away from the wall behind it, as do all Dipoles, including Quads. They can be right up against a side wall though, or on the floor if placed horizontally.. I can position any way I want in Room B. The 57's are 7 feet out from the front wall right now. I am getting really good results with just one nearfield / conventional sub. The brown chair you see in the pic I linked has seen every side of the space. But the overall music results are best as in the pic. I wish I could get rid of that house support pole - like move it to the left a bit. The brown chair as pictured - for a nearfield sub, has boundaries to the the right of it, That is where the sub is. The staircase, which would be a back wall to it. To the left is open. I realize those OB subs would allow me to try positioning within range of the speakers themselves. But right now Eric, unless you have tried this with a nearfield sub/s, and can provide me with some direct comparison insight; I am staying on this nearfield track for now. Bringing anything new in at this time requires selling existing stuff. That gives one patience and incentive to research this through. If I wasn't getting excellent results with a nearfield sub it would be a different story.
Hi Eric - would never have figured out your name from Bdp24 :^)
Firstly what is very important here to me and I thought about it when u said this.
I hope I haven't overstayed my welcome, and that at least some of this rant will be of use (or at least interest!) to you---Eric I appreciate real experiences over all else. it holds a lot of value to me. This thread only a couple years old now and before Audiogon buggered it all up last spring, showed me the views. Back last spring was near 1/2 million views ....i think. So I believe your experiences are of interest to me, and others I am sure. Especially since you show a lot of passion and are not tied to the Audiophilia Biz. :^)
Eric ...Pictures are a real asset. Especially speakers in a room ! Like a thousand words ..... Every experienced audiophile can look at speakers/type in a room and has a good idea how it sounds. Now regarding stacked Quads.
For those on this thread unfamiliar with Quad 57's, and stacked quads I attach some links for reference.
Please notice the positioning of the bottom panels on the first two links compared to last three. The last three links - the bottom panels are setup like stock. On stock form - single pair - this produces music to a listener that imitates sitting in a balcony. So I would expect that the last 3 setups fill in more bottom to top. As you tilt the ground panel forward. Like putting a piece of wood under the third back leg on a stock 57 - imaging rises. You are no longer in the balcony hearing the performance.
Re: Stacked Quads - Peter Walker said in the interview that I linked here that the stacked setup gives 6db more in the bass - and 3 db more everywhere else. So... They don't play any lower, and it is not a straight linear upgrade to the original single 57 output. The prominent midrange where the magic is - loses some of its magic when Quads are stacked. The numbers support this too - 6db versus 3 db. This is just my opinion on it. And only hearing a setup like this once. Now it could of been the room or condition of one or more panels. Too many variables. Readers can see if you look at the links that it is quite the effort to do; Stack Quads 57's. What you are not seeing is the time it took to restore the panels. Very few panels for sale are 100%. If they were the owner would be hanging on to them. imo
For me right now its just not worth acquiring a second pair and sending them to Wayne Picquet for restore. Effort, time and cost. This is mainly because I am able to play my pair in my space (a bigger space than most of those links from what I can tell) with one RM10 at 90 db AVERAGE measured at the chair if I want . This is 10 more db than normal for me with no issues. The sub comes in at a low 50 hz. More on this in a bit.
57's need to be set up in a live room. This is a total opposite to my Room A and experience with John Bowers era matrix 800 series. Those take work and knowledge on room tuning to get right. And fwiw - I am not impressed that B&W unleashes speakers like this to the unsuspecting audiophile. Studios know how to set them up. Audiophiles new to the brand with cash to burn do not. The John Bowers era was all about 2 channel music. Not a fan of the post - John Bowers era.
Re:DM70 Bdp24 - To be honest, I can't imagine why you would be using the woofer in that speaker as a sub for Quads! Eric....To be honest :^) , if you have these two speakers staring at you, in your own space. I can't imagine any red hot blooded audiophile - NOT - trying it out and hearing for themselves. Room B has always been an audio play room of sorts for me. This experiment lasted 3-4 days. Switching polarities on the woofers helped,if I recall?, but am not sure now. The experiment let me hear it for myself.
The DM70 on their own absolutely need to be set up high. The panels at your ear level. This means a lift of one foot minimum. They have a resonating - non matrix box. Up high also makes them less boomy with more bass note articulation. They should also be setup in a larger live room. They don't play any lower than 40 hz just like the Quad 57's, but their lower end is obviously more fuller. So depending on the music you can get away without a sub.
Re: OB sub Bdp24 - Enrico is of course not going to recommend the sub to you (or even mention it), or be able to advise you on it's use. He is involved with Rythmik, a completely separate operation with a different target audience and customer bass (largely Home Theater, most definitely not audiophile. Yeah, I got this message and it is cool. All those in the audio biz all need/have to play within their own silos. he was however helpful.
Re: RM10 Thanks for the insight into the RM10. You have a unique relationship with Roger. I found him very elusive when emailing - I gave up. He's just too far away. It's too bad you haven't heard a single pair of 57's with the RM10 to hear how much output / quality I am getting.
Bdp24 - Yes, he did now recommend a pair of RM-10's. Unfortunately, I had already bought an Atma-Sphere M60! ********************************************* Eric - Sorry for the asterisks - But wanted u to see this in this post - post getting long - what else is new ! Consider something here as I believe it is a big factor in play. The OTL's I owned were 200 wpc. They could not compete in the bass dept with the push pull RM9 in the bass dept. i believe (using OTL's) is a big factor in having to set a higher crossover on subs with 57's. I base this on my own experience and your comments on recommending the use of 80hz and 120 hz crossover points. The bass I found is just more lean with OTL's. I would never go that high a crossover in my room with the Quads and sub.
You may prove my above theory in your own room only, by borrowing 1 or 2 RM10's from your buddy Roger. :^) .....:^)......:^) And this needs to be done in your room only for a direct comparison.
*********************************************
Bdp24 - the OB/Dipole sub needs to be away from the wall behind it, as do all Dipoles, including Quads. They can be right up against a side wall though, or on the floor if placed horizontally.. I can position any way I want in Room B. The 57's are 7 feet out from the front wall right now. I am getting really good results with just one nearfield / conventional sub. The brown chair you see in the pic I linked has seen every side of the space. But the overall music results are best as in the pic. I wish I could get rid of that house support pole - like move it to the left a bit. The brown chair as pictured - for a nearfield sub, has boundaries to the the right of it, That is where the sub is. The staircase, which would be a back wall to it. To the left is open. I realize those OB subs would allow me to try positioning within range of the speakers themselves. But right now Eric, unless you have tried this with a nearfield sub/s, and can provide me with some direct comparison insight; I am staying on this nearfield track for now. Bringing anything new in at this time requires selling existing stuff. That gives one patience and incentive to research this through. If I wasn't getting excellent results with a nearfield sub it would be a different story.
Hi Eric - would never have figured out your name from Bdp24 :^)
Firstly what is very important here to me and I thought about it when u said this.
I hope I haven't overstayed my welcome, and that at least some of this rant will be of use (or at least interest!) to you---Eric I appreciate real experiences over all else. it holds a lot of value to me. This thread only a couple years old now and before Audiogon buggered it all up last spring, showed me the views. Back last spring was near 1/2 million views ....i think. So I believe your experiences are of interest to me, and others I am sure. Especially since you show a lot of passion and are not tied to the Audiophilia Biz. :^)
Eric ...Pictures are a real asset. Especially speakers in a room ! Like a thousand words ..... Every experienced audiophile can look at speakers/type in a room and has a good idea how it sounds. Now regarding stacked Quads.
For those on this thread unfamiliar with Quad 57's, and stacked quads I attach some links for reference.
Please notice the positioning of the bottom panels on the first two links compared to last three. The last three links - the bottom panels are setup like stock. On stock form - single pair - this produces music to a listener that imitates sitting in a balcony. So I would expect that the last 3 setups fill in more bottom to top. As you tilt the ground panel forward. Like putting a piece of wood under the third back leg on a stock 57 - imaging rises. You are no longer in the balcony hearing the performance.
Re: Stacked Quads - Peter Walker said in the interview that I linked here that the stacked setup gives 6db more in the bass - and 3 db more everywhere else. So... They don't play any lower, and it is not a straight linear upgrade to the original single 57 output. The prominent midrange where the magic is - loses some of its magic when Quads are stacked. The numbers support this too - 6db versus 3 db. This is just my opinion on it. And only hearing a setup like this once. Now it could of been the room or condition of one or more panels. Too many variables. Readers can see if you look at the links that it is quite the effort to do; Stack Quads 57's. What you are not seeing is the time it took to restore the panels. Very few panels for sale are 100%. If they were the owner would be hanging on to them. imo
For me right now its just not worth acquiring a second pair and sending them to Wayne Picquet for restore. Effort, time and cost. This is mainly because I am able to play my pair in my space (a bigger space than most of those links from what I can tell) with one RM10 at 90 db AVERAGE measured at the chair if I want . This is 10 more db than normal for me with no issues. The sub comes in at a low 50 hz. More on this in a bit.
57's need to be set up in a live room. This is a total opposite to my Room A and experience with John Bowers era matrix 800 series. Those take work and knowledge on room tuning to get right. And fwiw - I am not impressed that B&W unleashes speakers like this to the unsuspecting audiophile. Studios know how to set them up. Audiophiles new to the brand with cash to burn do not. The John Bowers era was all about 2 channel music. Not a fan of the post - John Bowers era.
Re:DM70 Bdp24 - To be honest, I can't imagine why you would be using the woofer in that speaker as a sub for Quads! Eric....To be honest :^) , if you have these two speakers staring at you, in your own space. I can't imagine any red hot blooded audiophile - NOT - trying it out and hearing for themselves. Room B has always been an audio play room of sorts for me. This experiment lasted 3-4 days. Switching polarities on the woofers helped,if I recall?, but am not sure now. The experiment let me hear it for myself.
The DM70 on their own absolutely need to be set up high. The panels at your ear level. This means a lift of one foot minimum. They have a resonating - non matrix box. Up high also makes them less boomy with more bass note articulation. They should also be setup in a larger live room. They don't play any lower than 40 hz just like the Quad 57's, but their lower end is obviously more fuller. So depending on the music you can get away without a sub.
Re: OB sub Bdp24 - Enrico is of course not going to recommend the sub to you (or even mention it), or be able to advise you on it's use. He is involved with Rythmik, a completely separate operation with a different target audience and customer bass (largely Home Theater, most definitely not audiophile. Yeah, I got this message and it is cool. All those in the audio biz all need/have to play within their own silos. he was however helpful.
Re: RM10 Thanks for the insight into the RM10. You have a unique relationship with Roger. I found him very elusive when emailing - I gave up. He's just too far away. It's too bad you haven't heard a single pair of 57's with the RM10 to hear how much output / quality I am getting.
Bdp24 - Yes, he did now recommend a pair of RM-10's. Unfortunately, I had already bought an Atma-Sphere M60! ********************************************* Eric - Sorry for the asterisks - But wanted u to see this in this post - post getting long - what else is new ! Consider something here as I believe it is a big factor in play. The OTL's I owned were 200 wpc. They could not compete in the bass dept with the push pull RM9 in the bass dept. i believe (using OTL's) is a big factor in having to set a higher crossover on subs with 57's. I base this on my own experience and your comments on recommending the use of 80hz and 120 hz crossover points. The bass I found is just more lean with OTL's. I would never go that high a crossover in my room with the Quads and sub.
You may prove my above theory in your own room only, by borrowing 1 or 2 RM10's from your buddy Roger. :^) .....:^)......:^) And this needs to be done in your room only for a direct comparison.
*********************************************
Bdp24 - the OB/Dipole sub needs to be away from the wall behind it, as do all Dipoles, including Quads. They can be right up against a side wall though, or on the floor if placed horizontally.. I can position any way I want in Room B. The 57's are 7 feet out from the front wall right now. I am getting really good results with just one nearfield / conventional sub. The brown chair you see in the pic I linked has seen every side of the space. But the overall music results are best as in the pic. I wish I could get rid of that house support pole - like move it to the left a bit. The brown chair as pictured - for a nearfield sub, has boundaries to the the right of it, That is where the sub is. The staircase, which would be a back wall to it. To the left is open. I realize those OB subs would allow me to try positioning within range of the speakers themselves. But right now Eric, unless you have tried this with a nearfield sub/s, and can provide me with some direct comparison insight; I am staying on this nearfield track for now. Bringing anything new in at this time requires selling existing stuff. That gives one patience and incentive to research this through. If I wasn't getting excellent results with a nearfield sub it would be a different story.
Hi Eric - would never have figured out your name from Bdp24 :^)
Firstly what is very important here to me and I thought about it when u said this.
I hope I haven't overstayed my welcome, and that at least some of this rant will be of use (or at least interest!) to you---Eric I appreciate real experiences over all else. it holds a lot of value to me. This thread only a couple years old now and before Audiogon buggered it all up last spring, showed me the views. Back last spring was near 1/2 million views ....i think. So I believe your experiences are of interest to me, and others I am sure. Especially since you show a lot of passion and are not tied to the Audiophilia Biz. :^)
Eric ...Pictures are a real asset. Especially speakers in a room ! Like a thousand words ..... Every experienced audiophile can look at speakers/type in a room and has a good idea how it sounds. Now regarding stacked Quads.
For those on this thread unfamiliar with Quad 57's, and stacked quads I attach some links for reference.
Please notice the positioning of the bottom panels on the first two links compared to last three. The last three links - the bottom panels are setup like stock. On stock form - single pair - this produces music to a listener that imitates sitting in a balcony. So I would expect that the last 3 setups fill in more bottom to top. As you tilt the ground panel forward. Like putting a piece of wood under the third back leg on a stock 57 - imaging rises. You are no longer in the balcony hearing the performance.
Re: Stacked Quads - Peter Walker said in the interview that I linked here that the stacked setup gives 6db more in the bass - and 3 db more everywhere else. So... They don't play any lower, and it is not a straight linear upgrade to the original single 57 output. The prominent midrange where the magic is - loses some of its magic when Quads are stacked. The numbers support this too - 6db versus 3 db. This is just my opinion on it. And only hearing a setup like this once. Now it could of been the room or condition of one or more panels. Too many variables. Readers can see if you look at the links that it is quite the effort to do; Stack Quads 57's. What you are not seeing is the time it took to restore the panels. Very few panels for sale are 100%. If they were the owner would be hanging on to them. imo
For me right now its just not worth acquiring a second pair and sending them to Wayne Picquet for restore. Effort, time and cost. This is mainly because I am able to play my pair in my space (a bigger space than most of those links from what I can tell) with one RM10 at 90 db AVERAGE measured at the chair if I want . This is 10 more db than normal for me with no issues. The sub comes in at a low 50 hz. More on this in a bit.
57's need to be set up in a live room. This is a total opposite to my Room A and experience with John Bowers era matrix 800 series. Those take work and knowledge on room tuning to get right. And fwiw - I am not impressed that B&W unleashes speakers like this to the unsuspecting audiophile. Studios know how to set them up. Audiophiles new to the brand with cash to burn do not. The John Bowers era was all about 2 channel music. Not a fan of the post - John Bowers era.
Re:DM70 Bdp24 - To be honest, I can't imagine why you would be using the woofer in that speaker as a sub for Quads! Eric....To be honest :^) , if you have these two speakers staring at you, in your own space. I can't imagine any red hot blooded audiophile - NOT - trying it out and hearing for themselves. Room B has always been an audio play room of sorts for me. This experiment lasted 3-4 days. Switching polarities on the woofers helped,if I recall?, but am not sure now. The experiment let me hear it for myself.
The DM70 on their own absolutely need to be set up high. The panels at your ear level. This means a lift of one foot minimum. They have a resonating - non matrix box. Up high also makes them less boomy with more bass note articulation. They should also be setup in a larger live room. They don't play any lower than 40 hz just like the Quad 57's, but their lower end is obviously more fuller. So depending on the music you can get away without a sub.
Re: OB sub Bdp24 - Enrico is of course not going to recommend the sub to you (or even mention it), or be able to advise you on it's use. He is involved with Rythmik, a completely separate operation with a different target audience and customer bass (largely Home Theater, most definitely not audiophile. Yeah, I got this message and it is cool. All those in the audio biz all need/have to play within their own silos. he was however helpful.
Re: RM10 Thanks for the insight into the RM10. You have a unique relationship with Roger. I found him very elusive when emailing - I gave up. He's just too far away. It's too bad you haven't heard a single pair of 57's with the RM10 to hear how much output / quality I am getting.
Bdp24 - Yes, he did now recommend a pair of RM-10's. Unfortunately, I had already bought an Atma-Sphere M60! ********************************************* Eric - Sorry for the asterisks - But wanted u to see this in this post - post getting long - what else is new ! Consider something here as I believe it is a big factor in play. The OTL's I owned were 200 wpc. They could not compete in the bass dept with the push pull RM9 in the bass dept. i believe (using OTL's) is a big factor in having to set a higher crossover on subs with 57's. I base this on my own experience and your comments on recommending the use of 80hz and 120 hz crossover points. The bass I found is just more lean with OTL's. I would never go that high a crossover in my room with the Quads and sub.
You may prove my above theory in your own room only, by borrowing 1 or 2 RM10's from your buddy Roger. :^) .....:^)......:^) And this needs to be done in your room only for a direct comparison.
*********************************************
Bdp24 - the OB/Dipole sub needs to be away from the wall behind it, as do all Dipoles, including Quads. They can be right up against a side wall though, or on the floor if placed horizontally.. I can position any way I want in Room B. The 57's are 7 feet out from the front wall right now. I am getting really good results with just one nearfield / conventional sub. The brown chair you see in the pic I linked has seen every side of the space. But the overall music results are best as in the pic. I wish I could get rid of that house support pole - like move it to the left a bit. The brown chair as pictured - for a nearfield sub, has boundaries to the the right of it, That is where the sub is. The staircase, which would be a back wall to it. To the left is open. I realize those OB subs would allow me to try positioning within range of the speakers themselves. But right now Eric, unless you have tried this with a nearfield sub/s, and can provide me with some direct comparison insight; I am staying on this nearfield track for now. Bringing anything new in at this time requires selling existing stuff. That gives one patience and incentive to research this through. If I wasn't getting excellent results with a nearfield sub it would be a different story.
Hi Eric - would never have figured out your name from Bdp24 :^)
Firstly what is very important here to me and I thought about it when u said this.
I hope I haven't overstayed my welcome, and that at least some of this rant will be of use (or at least interest!) to you---Eric I appreciate real experiences over all else. it holds a lot of value to me. This thread only a couple years old now and before Audiogon buggered it all up last spring, showed me the views. Back last spring was near 1/2 million views ....i think. So I believe your experiences are of interest to me, and others I am sure. Especially since you show a lot of passion and are not tied to the Audiophilia Biz. :^)
Eric ...Pictures are a real asset. Especially speakers in a room ! Like a thousand words ..... Every experienced audiophile can look at speakers/type in a room and has a good idea how it sounds. Now regarding stacked Quads.
For those on this thread unfamiliar with Quad 57's, and stacked quads I attach some links for reference.
Please notice the positioning of the bottom panels on the first two links compared to last three. The last three links - the bottom panels are setup like stock. On stock form - single pair - this produces music to a listener that imitates sitting in a balcony. So I would expect that the last 3 setups fill in more bottom to top. As you tilt the ground panel forward. Like putting a piece of wood under the third back leg on a stock 57 - imaging rises. You are no longer in the balcony hearing the performance.
Re: Stacked Quads - Peter Walker said in the interview that I linked here that the stacked setup gives 6db more in the bass - and 3 db more everywhere else. So... They don't play any lower, and it is not a straight linear upgrade to the original single 57 output. The prominent midrange where the magic is - loses some of its magic when Quads are stacked. The numbers support this too - 6db versus 3 db. This is just my opinion on it. And only hearing a setup like this once. Now it could of been the room or condition of one or more panels. Too many variables. Readers can see if you look at the links that it is quite the effort to do; Stack Quads 57's. What you are not seeing is the time it took to restore the panels. Very few panels for sale are 100%. If they were the owner would be hanging on to them. imo
For me right now its just not worth acquiring a second pair and sending them to Wayne Picquet for restore. Effort, time and cost. This is mainly because I am able to play my pair in my space (a bigger space than most of those links from what I can tell) with one RM10 at 90 db AVERAGE measured at the chair if I want . This is 10 more db than normal for me with no issues. The sub comes in at a low 50 hz. More on this in a bit.
57's need to be set up in a live room. This is a total opposite to my Room A and experience with John Bowers era matrix 800 series. Those take work and knowledge on room tuning to get right. And fwiw - I am not impressed that B&W unleashes speakers like this to the unsuspecting audiophile. Studios know how to set them up. Audiophiles new to the brand with cash to burn do not. The John Bowers era was all about 2 channel music. Not a fan of the post - John Bowers era.
Re:DM70 Bdp24 - To be honest, I can't imagine why you would be using the woofer in that speaker as a sub for Quads! Eric....To be honest :^) , if you have these two speakers staring at you, in your own space. I can't imagine any red hot blooded audiophile - NOT - trying it out and hearing for themselves. Room B has always been an audio play room of sorts for me. This experiment lasted 3-4 days. Switching polarities on the woofers helped,if I recall?, but am not sure now. The experiment let me hear it for myself.
The DM70 on their own absolutely need to be set up high. The panels at your ear level. This means a lift of one foot minimum. They have a resonating - non matrix box. Up high also makes them less boomy with more bass note articulation. They should also be setup in a larger live room. They don't play any lower than 40 hz just like the Quad 57's, but their lower end is obviously more fuller. So depending on the music you can get away without a sub.
Re: OB sub Bdp24 - Enrico is of course not going to recommend the sub to you (or even mention it), or be able to advise you on it's use. He is involved with Rythmik, a completely separate operation with a different target audience and customer bass (largely Home Theater, most definitely not audiophile. Yeah, I got this message and it is cool. All those in the audio biz all need/have to play within their own silos. he was however helpful.
Re: RM10 Thanks for the insight into the RM10. You have a unique relationship with Roger. I found him very elusive when emailing - I gave up. He's just too far away. It's too bad you haven't heard a single pair of 57's with the RM10 to hear how much output / quality I am getting.
Bdp24 - Yes, he did now recommend a pair of RM-10's. Unfortunately, I had already bought an Atma-Sphere M60! ********************************************* Eric - Sorry for the asterisks - But wanted u to see this in this post - post getting long - what else is new ! Consider something here as I believe it is a big factor in play. The OTL's I owned were 200 wpc. They could not compete in the bass dept with the push pull RM9 in the bass dept. i believe (using OTL's) is a big factor in having to set a higher crossover on subs with 57's. I base this on my own experience and your comments on recommending the use of 80hz and 120 hz crossover points. The bass I found is just more lean with OTL's. I would never go that high a crossover in my room with the Quads and sub.
You may prove my above theory in your own room only, by borrowing 1 or 2 RM10's from your buddy Roger. :^) .....:^)......:^) And this needs to be done in your room only for a direct comparison.
*********************************************
Bdp24 - the OB/Dipole sub needs to be away from the wall behind it, as do all Dipoles, including Quads. They can be right up against a side wall though, or on the floor if placed horizontally.. I can position any way I want in Room B. The 57's are 7 feet out from the front wall right now. I am getting really good results with just one nearfield / conventional sub. The brown chair you see in the pic I linked has seen every side of the space. But the overall music results are best as in the pic. I wish I could get rid of that house support pole - like move it to the left a bit. The brown chair as pictured - for a nearfield sub, has boundaries to the the right of it, That is where the sub is. The staircase, which would be a back wall to it. To the left is open. I realize those OB subs would allow me to try positioning within range of the speakers themselves. But right now Eric, unless you have tried this with a nearfield sub/s, and can provide me with some direct comparison insight; I am staying on this nearfield track for now. Bringing anything new in at this time requires selling existing stuff. That gives one patience and incentive to research this through. If I wasn't getting excellent results with a nearfield sub it would be a different story.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Halcro - Why don't you contact Richard Vandersteen about the suitability of the 2Wq for the Quads or John at Audio Connection who is an expert.
Hi Henry (Halcro)
There are a number of Vandersteen dealers in Ontario. I spoke with a couple of them today. There is a design issue with the 2wq for my setup that I was not aware of. The 2wq's require you to make the crossover that comes with the 2wq the ALPHA. Meaning outputs coming out of the preamp need to go through the 2wq first; then on to your main amplifier/s and main speakers. I want the Quad 57's running full with the Music Reference RM10 amp. The sub/s running parallel to fill in the lowest octave only when needed. Unfortunately this is not something one can try before you buy.
Also ...my experiences with Rel, ML and HSU have been that the sound is not as good - when your amp that powers the main speakers are receiving signals from an extra box** , unless that box was designed for them specifically - in this case a Music Reference RM10.
Whatever else happens going forward will need to work in parallel mode. Preamp has two low level outputs. One L-R for the MR RM10 amp and Quad 57's and one extra L-R for one or two subs.
Bdp24 Yeah Chris (saw your name!) You can call me Chris, you can call me Chrissy. If we meet in person you can call me Christie - but then you better bring chocolate chip cookies. :^) Some are comfortable with names, others feel a need for their moniker only - I am good either way.
Bdp24 - have you ever heard 57's with a Music Reference RM10 ?
I don't know how you feel about this idea Chris, but the width of a W- or H-frame is around 16". The OB/Dipole sub can actually be used horizontally (laid on it's side), and a Quad speaker set on top of it, the sub thus becoming a 16" high stand for the speaker. Bdp - Short answer is no. And you are reminding me of an experiment I did which was really illuminating for me. So I share it here.
The DM70 is left unplugged making only the woofer active. It started out right under the 57 (looked kinda funky...no ?)and gradually moved forward until the bass wave was aligned with the 57's - to my ears. The problem is the crossover for the dm70 is 500 hz and intruded into the Quad's space. The woofer is designed to work with its own ESL panel. The ESL panel which btw was made for B&W by Janszen. .
1-06-15: Bdp24 Oh, I neglected to address your desire to fill in only the bottom of the Quad, without encroaching on the it's sound above that. A well-justified concern Chris, and the inability of almost all subs to do just that is exactly why most Quad lovers choose to just live without deep bass, the loss of too much of the Quad's sound being too high a price to pay to get it. Well I think I have it figured out. I need some time with my wife out for some fun test runs to really test it out. Maybe this weekend.
Also I found out from Rhythmik that you need at least a pair (4 drivers and two amplifiers) to get the same output as one F12. The OB sub is not good for near field placement. They need a lot of room around them to work properly.
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
Bdp24 - The OB/Dipole sub is a completely different animal than any sealed or ported sub. Bdp
Yes Indeed, I was surprised with Quad 57 in the subject line that he didn't hit on the OB sub in the emails and instead discussed the other subs. And I did not discuss DIY or finished. No problem. I wanted to hear him out and his responses to my emails were really fast.
Since you can't hear the Gr Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub before purchase, I highly recommend reading all about it on the GR AudioCircle Forum Yes will do more reading on it. I'd like to learn more about it.
Once this November T Shirt and Flip Flop weather goes away for good.
Thanks for making me aware of this product. Also Considering DIY..
Bdp24 - As to locating subs nearfield to reduce possible distortion, consider this: The limiting factor in a hybrid loudspeaker/sub pairing will be the maximum output of your loudspeakers, not the sub. When your Quads have reached their maximum SPL, the subs will still be coasting! Bdp - your point is noted in general; but each case /room is unique. So lets acknowledge something here because it plays a big role in my space/room. The importance of the proper mating of a speakers system and amp/s. In this case the Music Reference RM10 and Quad 57's are joined at the hip - by design. (Thank u Mr. Modjeski). In my space; with the 57's positioning and the nearfield sub, I am not reaching the 57's maximum SPL (yet) in that fairly large room with my listening habits. I am also only looking to fill in the bottom - without encroaching on the 57's output. Zero. The Matrix 800's in room A are the bass reference. I can hear what if anything I am missing in Room B. Both from an actual note and pressure (visceral) sense.
Btw your references to my ET Speakers. These are listed in my Notables Section of my virtual system page. Meaning good memories. Unfortunately no longer own them. :^( They fell victim to the " I Just can't find a place to hide them from my wife scenario "
Audiophile Memory - Chilly Winter Day. There they were, the ET LFT8a's and Modded Acoustats Model 3 upstairs not bothering anyone in a living room we don't use much anymore. I think it all came about after my wife found me in that room listening to the Model 3's with the OTL's . The heat from the amps shut the house thermostat which was in the room down. Rest of the House got cold. She came in and found me looking like I was enjoying the sand in Puerto Vallarta with a drink in hand - just no umbrella in it. Long story short I was forced to cull. So one day I reluctantly lined up the ET Lft8a and Accoustat up on one side like a Police line. It was a no decision. The differences in that room - the Models 3's made music sound like it was in a studio. The ET's sounded more like in a hall. More ambient info. Both good. ET's could be replaced one day so they had to go. In comparison the Quad's 57's sound is live at the Microphone with voices....... note: I had the A version's not the B's of the ET's. Thought about getting Bruce to send me the tweeters to make them b's but changed my mind because of the setup. Going by memory - the A version tweeter panels are dipole, don't have the material in the speaker tweeter panel (if I remember right) blocking the back wave. Being a tall narrow speaker the A version allowed you to place them on the sides of the wall (midfield) in a long narrow room. One on each side. You could get imaging at both sides of a long room this way. It was so cool. Miss them.
Bdp - are u familair with the Vandersteen 2wq's subs. Any thoughts in regards to compatibility with the 57's ?
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows in the picture point to all the spots where sub/s have gone in the past. I was hoping for some fun & guesses on which spot you guys thought worked best. Well its location 12. Nearfield. Spot 11 works ok too. But above on the main floor close to spot 11 is my wife's couch for watching TV. This is not good. Trust me on this one.
Bdp24 Did you email GR Research, or Rythmik? I emailed Rhythmik with my requirements including the same picture with the arrows. It lead to some back and forth dialogue.
**********************************************
Chris,
We have a lot of customers with Quad 57s and Magnepan speakers as well. Our sealed subwoofer are good match for planar speakers in general. Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job. If your room is less than 3500 cu ft than a pair of F12s would be OK. If your room is bigger then a pair of E15HPs or F15HPs will be the way to go.
Best Regards, Rythmik Audio - Tech Support --------------------------------------------------
"ME" thanks for your reply.
"Depending on the size of your room, a pair of F12 or pair of F15HPs would do the job."
22 ft wide - 18 deep but a room behind where I am standing is another 13 x 24 if door left open. 8 ft ceilings. In using one large sub as an experiment the red arrow represents the best placement with 57's. How would your subs factor in. Based on your experience which arrows would represent good placement ? Is this enough info to give me an opinion.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Quad 57 - wayne picquet rebuilds
Chris,
In a room that size you have to go with a pair of F15HPs. About the placement, its really hard to say whats the best place to put the subwoofers because every room is different. You have to try different locations, take measurement or do a subwoofer crawl until you find the best location for the subwoofer(s). Usually front wall close to a corner helps with extension and output but its not the rule all the time or for every room.
Rythmik Audio Tech Support
ME -
for a two channel only Audio room, have you ever used a near field placement beside / behind the listening couch ? Chris
Chris,
I have my pair of F12SEs near field, one on each side of my couch. Of course, my room is only 2700 cu ft.
Best Regards,
Rythmik Audio - Tech Support ME
interesting thanks.
Would you agree then for two channel - if you want the best bass at the listening couch that the best placement is nearfield? This allows for the lowest volume setting on the sub. The sub is never stressed. Chris
Chris,
Like I said before placement is different for every room. In my room near field is better and also I dont have many placement options. You have to try different locations until you find the most appropriated for your room. But usually near field placement works in most rooms.
That's how the discussion went. fwiw - Just One F15HP that Rhythmic mentions in the email trail starts at $1200 us.(from website)
Bdp24 - The OB Sub can be used up to around 300Hz, so a stereo pair is the norm. Bdp
I have tried a conventional stereo pair of subs (borrowed) in line / close to the Quad 57's in room B.
My observations
1) The Quad 57 bass is too fast for them. 2) Inline or close to the Quads also forces you to use higher setting on the subs, which ends up clouding the Quad midrange.
Right now
In Room B - Quad 57's with the Music Reference RM10 and that one conventional sub in nearfield at position 12. The previous compression of sound that I talked about on this thread in Room B with the quads has been fixed. I am able to achieve 100 db peaks if I want. I listen around 80-85 db plus peaks. The room is filled with sound due to the positioning of the quads. So thinking of bringing in a pair and using both in nearfield.
Bdp24 - Rythmik lists the OB Sub kit in their product listings I have many tools, and as a cottage owner I do a lot of DIY carpentry. My problem as confirmed by my wife. I am good at making stuff to about 90% completion. Meaning it will work and not fall down. But I am terrible at finishing touches. I usually get on with the next project on the list. I still have not put in the base mouldings for my Room B yet.
So...
Prefer a plug and play approach - finished product - and we unfortunately absolutely need to consider today the 30 point difference in our dollars :^(
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
The arrows each show a different sub placement identified by a number. Each time the sub is on the floor where the point is :^) - furniture in the way on some numbers.
Room is 22 feet wide. 18 feet deep with a stair case that leads to an insulated door to the main floor. In the pic I am standing in the doorway of Room A that I mentioned in the previous post which. If I leave Room A door open, it makes Room B's (Length) & volume much larger. A medium room anyway imo? A large room to me is where you go to see movies.
The Quads are wearing their screens in this older pic. Are 7 feet from the front wall. The high positioning (Arcici stands on the black concrete bricks) eliminates the one person in a narrow listening spot scenario that u read alot about. In this setup you can actually stand up and walk around. Although the center voice will follow u around. Kinda of cool. Is this not what singers do on stage anyway ? Move around :^) This space outside of Room A is sort of a backwards number 7. What can be seen is the top of the seven - the bottom of the 7 split out by the curtain on the right.
Two subs are better for balancing out the room waves but for purposes of having some fun and learning here. Assume you are only using one large sub 12 inch conventional woofer. Using low level line outputs from preamp. Sub has full features including volume, and crossover frequency controls.
What position (arrow/number) do feel works best in this room/setup according to my ears :^) with Quad 57's.
Guesses ?
***************************************
Bdp24 - There is a DIY sub that is unusually good with Quads.......
......The OB Sub DIY kit is available from both GR Research and Rythmik, and the plans for the W- and H-frames can be found on the GR website thanks Bdp24. I have added them to my search and actually sent the company an email outlining my room/speaker requirements. I will let you guys know what they come back with. I look forward to a guess from you on the above exercise. :^)
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
what an interesting assortment Thanks. It was all acquired used. Three cheers for the frequent flyer audiophile. :^) Actually that's not quite right. The OTL's were bought new. I really wanted them to work but they failed my test of time. The reference ET 2.5 tonearm was also a new custom build from Bruce.
It's going to take me quite a while to read through all the responses and discussion of your systems Ct, but I'm sure gonna do it. You know, Sometimes when I think about, I get little concerned about what I might have said here on the 'Gon. Its after all hardcoded in the thread. Even more so on the ET2 thread because I can't delete that thread like this one. But I never go back to look. I figure, I am just being upfront with what I hear and experience; and it is what it is. I do however "really" like the freedom I have to say what I feel (within reason obviously) as I am not part of the Audio Business in any way. This includes special relationship privileges with some manufacturers. I don't have to worry about offending any business partners. :^)
We obviously hear things similarly to some degree, both having old Quad and ET LFT-8 loudspeakers, and Music Reference power amps. I just can't say enough, about how good the Quad 57's sound with the Music Reference RM10 amp, which Roger designed for his own 57's. Every music lover and audiophile should have this combo. RM10 and Quad 57's set up somewhere in their house. This combo keeps me grounded. The B&W matrix 800 series line is all about tuning. What gets fed in comes out. I have tuned their midrange, to sound like the midrange on the 57's. They are in very different but adjacent rooms. Both rooms can be heard by standing in the doorway of Room A.
The Quad 57' design is older than me but the actual speakers panels themselves are only a about 6 ? years old having been rebuilt by Wayne Picquet.
QUAD - Quality Amplifier for Domestic Use.
From an interview with the late Peter Walker at Quad Factory 1978
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It's not that easy to do. Initially it's quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers has never been very good.
(So stacked quads give you more db in the bass but they still won't play the bottom octave. I am currently experimenting with sub/s as a fall/winter project. I feel I have found the answer but need to do more listening. What a chore that is . Can u imagine this being your everyday job...listening to music?)
(on Audio Philosophy)
PW: We don't produce a new product every six months or even 12 months, no. Only two reasons for producing a new model: either you did it wrong the first time or there's been a fundamental improvement in the science. Fundamental improvements in the science come very infrequently.
(You know. I love my ARC gear; but I wonder what today's Audio Research corporate & marketing folks would think about his philosophy ? )
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Rega Apollo & Saturn Transport Fix. (initializing, reading and playing CD's)
This post is for owners of Rega Digital players (Apollo and Saturn). If your transport mechanism works, but your player is having trouble initializing and reading discs maybe this fix will work for you.
My Saturn (XX years?) which I still use in one of my systems went down on me over the summer. It intermittently stopped reading discs. When it did read them it would start having problems during play. You could hear the mechanism working hard as it cycled eventually stopping and showing an Error message on the display. It seemed I had the option of sending it to Rega Support Plurism in Montreal, or maybe try something DIY - do it yourself. Here is what I did.
First I took a Q-tip - dipped in Isopropyl 99.9% - waiting till it was not dripping and just moist. Then using a magnifying glass gave the laser lens one light swipe. This resulted in lightning fast initial cd reads. But it still had problems playing the CD. You could hear the mechanism working till finally stopping and registering that Error display.
I then took some Lithium Grease Lube. Sprayed some on a piece of plastic. took a flat tooth pick and dabbed it into it. I then manually, carefully pushed the transport mechanism to see and access the full railing that it rides on. With the toothpick I applied dots of grease in an even path along the railing of the transport. I then put in a cd. there were 15 tracks on this one. Let it load. Then I cycled with the remote between track one and track 15. 15 and one....repeatedly. This forced the transport mechanism back and forth allowing it to lubricate itself with the applied grease.
At least 200 plays later it is still working better than it every did in the XX years I have owned it. (fingers crossed) I would post pics of how I greased the railing but have not had access to the virtual system here for a long time. What's up AudioGon ?
fwiw People that have owned these players know how good they are from both from a DAC and Player/Transport perspective. Extremely musical, analog, vinyl like. I had taken my Saturn to dealer showrooms over the years and plugged it into their systems with my CD's. The Saturn held its own quite well, as both an all around good CD player; but I discovered that its transport is the real gem comparing against others. For me personally, it took an expensive DAC - the DAC8 in my case to replace the Saturn's DAC. But its transport I still rank way up there.
Hi Henry - glad you liked my Horn Woofer Speaker Selfie. Yes it was a Selfie. I came out bad so I cropped myself out of it ! You know...this is happening more and more with me in pictures these days.....cropping myself out. Can't figure it out :^(
Hi Dan,
Koaltar needs a pat on the head (if you can get to it), and a good scratch behind the ears
The hardest part was keeping a labrador retriever out of the water for 10 days. Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep a lab retriever out of water ?
Will need more input on just how great the improvements are on the push-pull amp
The truth for me is that amps are really kind of boring. The really good amps just disappear so you don't think about them. Unless they are loaded with tubes to stare at. But then you are afraid to leave the room for an extended period of time for fear of fire. think OTL. Now Speakers and turntables - those are interesting. When they (amps) disappear and provide reliable satisfying service year after year you got yourself a good amp. But this RM9 is not just a regular push-pull amp. This is a very unique amp to me. Owned it many years. It has been in the ball park with every amp I have ever owned. It even competed with the former OTL's and; the only way BTW I got to hear the OTL's in trial at my house before buying them, was that the OTL manufacturer respected Roger; and needed to hear his amps with the RM9 in the same room. So he brought a trial pair over for me. Can it compete with the big Krell - don't know yet. Been travelling and I haven't turned on the Krell yet since getting the RM9 back. For now I will say the Matrix 800's are honest full range speakers 20hz - 20khz, and the RM9 is handling them nicely in my room.
The current version of the RM9 amp is called RM200 and to get one that Roger Modjeski himself has wound the transformers on costs an extra $1000. Makes me wonder where they are getting the regular transformers from, and if this part of the amp is being outsourced from the same place as maybe ARC or other companies ? Sign of the times. Does anybody know the answer to this question ?
As information (a copy and paste from the Music Reference website) Music Reference Price List from their website in US dollars. Not affiliated....just a fan; I also own an RM10 that I use with my Quad 57's.
Amplifiers EM7 All Triode Stereo 2.5 watt/channel SE power amp KIT $750 EM7 All Triode Stereo 2.5 watt/channel SE power amp $1250 EM7 All Triode Stereo 5 watt/channel SE power amp $1500 EM7 All Triode 10 Watt Push-Pull Monobloc w/ Balanced Input(each) $1250 45 or PX4 based Deluxe Stereo 4 watt/channel (Email) 245.1 45 based Stereo 4 watt/channel less output tubes (Email) RM-10 MK II 25 watt/channel High Bias EL-84/6BQ5 w/ Self Adjusting Bias & Tube Current Indicators $2,450 RM-10 MK II 35 watt/channel Push-pull EL-84/6BQ5 $2,950 RM-200 MK II 100 watt/channel Push-pull KT-88 $5,400 RM-200 MK II-T As above with transformers wound by Roger $6,400 RM-300 MK II 300 watt Monobloc Push-pull (each) $9,000 RM-6 OTL (Output Transformerless) Direct Coupled, Servo 100 watt Monobloc (each) $4,500
So to replace this RM9 with a new RM200 is $6400. Can't imagine what two RM-300 300 wpc mono's at $9k each would sound like.... (if I was only living in California where Music Reference is)
A comment from the the technician that stuck with me; This is when he was testing the reborn RM9 out. "this amp just does not give up" & "nice transformers"
So....
How do you know when you have a special audio piece ?
Answer
IMO.....when the repair/tech wants to buy it off you.
This also happened with my ARC SP11MK2 some years ago.
So been enjoying the renewed born again RM9, but up north much of the time now. Will put in the big Krell in later this summer.... .. no rush. I am after-all a full time music lover; and only part time audiophile. I have grown out of the - play my favorite 10-20 music albums all over again whenever I introduced a change - phase. :^)
Well, If my spot the amp difference game was a TV show, it would have been cancelled the first week due to lack of responses :^( I therefore declare Banquo the winner. You will need to come to Canada to collect the prize Banquo. Still listening to this Born Again Music Reference RM9. Lovely tunes coming out of it. Using the 4 ohm, low gain setting on the 93db matrix 800.
Also known as the Natural Woofer. It doesn't get any purer for this for sound does it ? When he is hungry the sound from the speaker is at 1000 hz - more like a whine. If something annoys him it gets into the 100 -200 hz range.
Sorry..... could not resist. Reminded me too much of a vintage Masters Voice turntable I own. My wife likes this turntable as she is into antiques. She lets me display it upstairs if you can believe it. Koaltar had the nasty performed on him this week. Hurts me as much as him. Should be a real fun week here. 80 lb Lab and Elizabethan collar to keep him from licking the stitches for 10 days. :^(
Some recent listens Sarah Brightman - Classics Neil Young - Decade Natalie Merchant - I have played this one so much I could be a backup singer for her at her next gig. My girlfriend Sarah Mclachlan's latest - Shine on. Blue Rodeo - 5 days in July Supertramp - Famous Last Words... Various Jazz and Classical Dug out an old favorite from my very young days - Electric Light Orchestra - Turned to stone. Used to use The side containing Concert for a Rainy Day to pump myself up for Sports I played. This album therefore still pumps me up.
Something about myself. In my room I am definitely not a streaming type of guy - I play whole Albums (CD's and LP's). I like to get to know the artists and their music. I don't jump from song to song. I get to know each song on the album. If I am just working around the house and looking for tunes I usually just grab them off the Bell Expressvu Satellite - Theme stations in the other room. Depending on the mood.
Banquo - very good. You hit on some changes and made some good guesses. You scored points and are in the lead. The fact that you are the only player so far...is irrelevant :^)
Some background I just received back this amp early this week. It was given to a famous local tech here back in December, and I told him to take his time, check it out, rehab it and make it better. Better ? What did I mean by that ?
It was fairly equal/very close in the midrange. But what the OTL's had over push pull was their immediacy and response, and a litter bigger sound. Like the sound was coming from a bigger pipe. The Push Pull sounded a little congested in comparison is what I wrote earlier. So I instructed him to, along with a complete rehab with new solder connections everywhere; to make the changes he felt were needed to make it sound more open, less congested.
Banquo363 - And those 2 large gauge looking wires that appear to be going to the rca inputs? Noise reduction mod? No idea.
Looking at the top pic you can see I have added two red arrows pointing to two beige colored wires. Difficult to see as they are the same color as the board. If you blow the pic up and follow those wires you will see that these wires have disappeared in the bottom picture. They have in fact been replaced by the two large gauge wires in the bottom pic. FURTHER HINT - These two larger gauge wires are also Silver wire.
Also if you look at the bottom of the revised pic you see a red circle around an additional ground cable that has been added, This one attaches to the bottom cover bolt where the bottom cover metal shield attaches. So this will help with further noise reduction that you mention. Now the previous version top pic was already a modded version and it came with a very nice hard wired 3 prong power cord. In its current state the amp is very quiet and cannot be heard at idle even with your ears up to the drivers.
Amplifier manufacturers, engineers, audiophiles, music lovers, politicians (?) ..... DIY tinker'ers that just can't keep their pinkies out of their gear. Those addicted to the smell of solder smoke. Those that like to play "Spot The Difference Games".
Extra points to those that can identify the reason behind the changes. The previous version is on top. The newly modded overhauled version below. Sound like fun?
The mystery amp and the story behind it to be revealed here soon with more listening time. I'll say for now that this venerable tube amp and its magical transformers, sounds wonderful, and is doing one hell of a nice job driving the 93 db Matrix 800's and their double woofers.
My wife decided for winning the the bet it would probably be good for me to spend time away from Audiogon. I told her no problem, this is the only audio forum I am part of and only spend part of my morning coffee time here usually. She insisted. Today she lifted the ban. :^)
Hi Slaw.
Slaw - I recently purchased a three pack of Shunyata DF-SS risers to go under my interconnects leading from my preamp to my amp. I placed these on pieces of pavers I had left over from my sidewalk project. I felt the increase in height would help, along with additional isolation.
interesting comment Slaw about the Shunyata/pavers and isolation.
I have had a love/hate relationship with these things.
The bad - they are very good at tripping me. My speakers are 6-7 ft from the front wall in the room. I have to walk by my amp/speakers to get to the front wall. Behind the curtains there are shelves and drawers holding stuff - Audiophile junk. You name it...it is there. Tools, screws/bolts, cartridges, p - magazines, wires, manuals, tubes, oils...,? For some reason all this small stuff has a way of piling up into an organized mess in different areas of my house not just here. I call it my organized mess. My wife calls it something else. I am pretty sure my wife is too afraid to cross the amp and speaker wires threshold to find out what is in the stash here though. If you want to mess with me.....move something in one of my organized messes. :^(
Sorry to digress .
The good - when cable risers are used where two cables need to cross at 90 degrees they allow for a bridge to help keep them from touching.
The good - they are also good to hold the weight of some heavy power and speaker cables coming out of the component so it does not stress the cable. .
But... imo I feel if the cable is of good construction it should not matter if it is on the ground or elevated; especially if the music room is situated on a concrete floor.
So Slaw your comment regarding the use of the pavers is an interesting one. Curious if your room is on a suspended wood floor by chance.
Cool cable risers can also be bought direct from the Hydro company or Ebay.
Banquo - I don't have a cd player hooked up to my system (there are not enough hours in the day for both vinyl and cd)
Hi Banquo - The floor of my main room has become a landmine of LP's and CD's everywhere. I haven't been filing anything away since Nov Dec. They are at easy reach I tell myself. Good thing its my space or my wife would have a fit.
The Holly Cole Girl Talk album is an example of a seriously well done album, I am not just talking about "Oh I Love the Jazz Music on it" type of well done although I do enjoy the music. I am talking about how well the music was captured at the source and engineered afterward. No loudness factor/compression. With the Holly Cole CD I can turn the gain dial (separate from the volume) on my preamp all the way just like with most vinyl. The result of this full gain setting on my preamp provides for the most "they are there in the room" with me. In contrast to this most of my Pop Rock CD's need to be kept at about the 10 -12 O'clock gain setting. This makes them listenable to enjoy, but not as much in your room foolery. Another example of really well done music for me are the Ultra Analogue Recordings of which CD's are available of the music.
The album you linked is $125 US dollars. Can you believe that is now $157 Canadian. Throw in the shipping, taxes, customs if applicable and it turns into a forget-about-it scenario.
Both will give you the in room experience with the musicians with this album.
Also - I got curious about something late fall last year. Why do some of my vinyl records of new albums Digitally Mastered; sound better in my room than their store bought CDs. So I called Roger Ginsley Studer Canada rep about it and he put me in touch one of his clients.
What is it about females in this audio hobby/business that is just so sexy. No.....I didn't tell her that. We had some very interesting discussion. One of the things she confirmed is that when cutting the vinyl; If possible and available the Hi Rez source file is the one that is used, unlike having to do the CD at (2 channels of LPCM audio, each signed 16-bit values sampled at 44100 Hz) Some Cd's I own have higher bit counts.
This is just one reason to explain why the vinyl can sound better than the CD.
But she also did say it would need to be confirmed on a studio to studio, album to album basis.
Also - your Music Reference RM9 amp as you are aware has a toggle for 3 gain settings low, medium, high, If for example you listen with vinyl at the medium gain setting, Digital may sound very good if you use the lower gain setting, due to digital's inherent loudness factor with most "average" digital recordings. Have you tried it with the streaming ? Thanks for the grooveshark reference.
Dan ...what can I say. Love u too man .....in an audiophile sort of way :^)
Banquo - u too...and I am also loving the battery operated brush. thx. Boy all this love.
It's a vinyl bargain hunter's paradise: I once found wagner's entire ring cycle (16 records) for $4.
I may need more love and some special protection from someone soon what with my wife's new found interest in my records. Will definitely hide the fact that 3 weeks ago, I purchased an album by my Audio Girlfriend A 45 rpm double LP of Afterglow. Of significance to me - Its price shown, is about the same as the total for all the records mentioned in the previous post.
Oh the shame. Here I am boasting about my musical finds for a nominal amount of money, then I spend the equivalent sum on two pieces of plastic a few weeks earlier. Well I do get to look at a 12 x 12 inch of Sarah with the record album, versus the 5 1/2 x 5 1/2 cd.
So I may need more help, someone to look over me a bit more; in case my wife finds out about this one.....and maybe a few others.. As it is, unfortunately I have learned I can't expect any such protection from Koaltar Picture taken by company last night. He's become a real pushover with my wife.
Banquo363 Evidently many people only pretend to like opera because virtually every one I have bought has looked unplayed. I didn't know you liked opera?!
Either did I .... But I remember the exact moment of realization vividly. Couple of years ago and I am waiting for my wife in the parking lot and it is getting late. I am growing more impatient by the minute. By accident I put it on CBC radio and Opera was playing. Instead of growing more impatient, I relaxed. Hmmm....... But lets face it , I am not going to do my daily run on the treadmill to Opera, nor Classical for that matter or Jazz., Classic Rock all the way for me on treadmill. When I run outdoors I listen to the outdoors only. Hopefully this year with Koaltar beside me.
I'd put the Mahler and the Beethoven piano sonatas first on the clean cue.
Thanks...- their next :^)
Listened to the first album on the previous post list. The box set of Beethoven Overtures - Minnesota Orchestra First production run 1980. Really impressed with the 3 records (condition) but really the performance of that Minnesota Orchestra. They have quite the story when I googled it. Good lord - the box set is 35 years old ....
Music Finds Been having good luck with music treasure finds this winter. The Scenario has been repeated multiple times. I drop off my wife for shopping / appointments in town. I have about 70 minutes to do my thing. Other than stocking up on eating and drinking goodies, I beeline to the thrift shops for Music. The music collected on both CD and LP has been terrific. Incredible condition LPs. The latest haul however was a little overwhelming for me. If you have any of these and really enjoy them please help me to decide which to pull and clean first because I am not familiar with these specific records. In this latest find many are classical; I love full bore classical orchestras with huge dynamic swings. But if I was a contestant on a game show and I had to identify Classical works .....I would probably lose my shirt. The groundhog says 6 more weeks of winter. I intend to insert two different lps into rotation every week. There are many lps in front of these waiting to be cleaned. So should any of the ones below be moved to the front of the line ? All of these LP's I found and picked out this week - Tuesday.
Beethoven Overtures - Minnesota Orchestra - VOXBOX - Box Set El Amor Brujo - Love the Magician - DMM Direct Metal Mastering - Audiophile Pressing Andalucina Romero Sanjuan - RCA Spain A Grand Opera Gala - Box Set - London Records USA Teatro akka Scala - Giuseppe Verdi - AIDA - Box Set - Angel Records - Made in England Too many Deutsche Grammophon to list out. SERAPHIM V By VIVALDI - Angel Records France The ROMEROS Play and Evening of Flamenco - Mercury Paco de Lucia - Phillips Holland Beethoven - 3 Sonates - Orazio Frugoni - Piano - MusicDisc - France Orchestre Pro Arte De Munich, Georg Friedrich Händel, Johann Pachelbel, Kurt Redel STU0058 France Paco De Lucia* Solo Quiero Caminar - Phillips - Holland Joseph Haydn - Symphonies - Music Disc - France Mahler Des Knaben Wunderhorn - London Symphony Orchestra - Angel Records England Edvard Grieg: Holberg Suite, Op 40; Lyric Pieces, Op 43; Ballade, Op 24. - Turnabout VOX ABBADO MOZART 40-41 LONDON DG NUMERIQUE 415841-1 Deutsche Grammophon Piano Rags by Scott Joplin Beethoven Symphony No. 9 "Choral": Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt: Vienna Philharmonic DECCA JS BAch - Monitor High Fidelity Recordings Clavier Concerto No 1 in D Minor JOSE MENESE - Theatre De L'olympia John Williams - Plays Two Guitar Concertos - CBS Records Willie Nelson - Without A Song - Mint
Had to pass on two Schubert lps - the vinyl looked questionable.
Too many cd's to list but two that stand out that I have been enjoying. Mary Chapin Carpenter - born on the same day as me, how cool is that - but she is better looking than me. TSO - Toronto Symphony Orchestra - Musically Speaking 2007-08 Season.
My wife after seeing the stacks of lps in the back seat when I picked her up after she was done this week, I know was thinking she should go into town by herself from now on. That is until she checked a few of the titles online at ebay and other sites. What she discovered was not good. They were purchased for a nominal amount of money. What they are selling for on auction sites has me worried for my record collection.
This cold winter has turned me into a bit of an Opera fool. I have pulled all opera music I can from my collection. Some LP's I forgot I even owned. Even how I got them ? I have Opera Mania on continual rotate. I start humming (sometimes singing) to music in a language I do not understand and can not speak. For some reason, my now 6 + month old 55 lb black lab pup Koaltar starts howling when Jose Carreras starts singing. Is there any hope for us ? The good thing is my wife, I think, is intimidated by all of this to the point of being too nervous to ask me to do house chores.
Mapman I can relate to what you say. I have 5 rooms each unique continuously enabled for good sound and 3 different headphone setups
Mapman - about 5 years ago, I needed to spend a lot of time during the week in downtown Toronto (work, parents), going home on weekends; I had two audio room locations going, 80 kilometers apart in TO and at Home. Two different power grids. Three rooms in total (1 and 2 respectively). For me multiple room syndrome :^) starts when one buys an extra pair of speakers (for whatever reason) ends up liking them too and they end up needing a home (room). Some just put two sets of gear in one room but this is not as elegant as giving them their own space. My thinking is that extra amps, sources etc.. can just be kept as contingencies. Well this is how I sell it to myself anyway. Also my line of work is business continuity planning; preparing for and recovering from the unthinkable.....so ....the more backups the better with me.
These days I have been corralled into the basement of our home out in the sticks where the power is really nice. I have created two adjacent rooms. Even though my wife considers basements sub par, its cool with me because, as Michael Douglas said in the War of the Roses, "I have more square footage". (I think I used this reference a while back in this thread) Its so true. Also having a short carpet + pad on top of solid concrete works really well for music.
A key thing for me is the living space above my main room is not used these days and creates a buffer for bass leakage. A path for bass leakage on full range music is very important for continued marriage bliss; as long as the path does not lead to your wife. As an audio friend that was forced to set up the air pump system for his ET2 tonearm in his garage recently told me, "I could hide a body in there and no one will know".
In my case Koaltar would sniff the body out first. Two speakers are hiding in this upstairs space today. They think they are hiding there anyway. My wife's take (her version) of the above could probably sell some books.
He is now 5 months and 46 lbs and is running with me on the good days outside. When we start running, he's full of energy and does laps around me at the same time as we are running. Bit of a showoff...... however after a few hundred yards he is right there at my side. He is slowly learning even a dog needs to pace himself.
I think my 20 year old fraternal twin son and daughter are sort of amused that he has replaced them as my screen saver.
My understanding is that the music was captured here
for the Peter Gabriel tracks. imo - the Room (plus clean power) is the most important thing in this hobby. You can hear the Room (the facility) in the Peter Gabriel music. There is no way a rock concert captured in this kind venue which is common, is going to sound as good as the same music captured in a recording studio. His album Scratch My Back is an example of this. Amazing stuff. Anyway I listen to it still as I am a music lover. I enjoy the music, I grew up on it as a product of the 60's. It takes me back. A touch of the fountain of youth..maybe. The difference listening now; is my wife knows where she can find me, and some buddies some time, In the Panic Room aka Dad's Hole.
The best Rock LIVE performer I have seen/heard, for me, is Bruce Springsteen by far I have seen him 7 times ......all before the kids came along in '94. Then everything changed. I still needed the music to survive. So i brought it home and built my dedicated room. I am more into Classical now, the ladies singing, and other genres. Rock still makes up a good 15 - 20 % especially if the guys come over.
I listened to all 25 Linn tracks in one sitting. At times I was moving around my room. It was at a decent db level, when "Many Rivers To Cross" came on it scared the ^%*^ out of me. Very ghostly the way the song started; she was MORE than just in the room with me. There was presence. I am easily "spooked" by stuff like "ghosts". I stay away from occult, horror films as well. My wife to the contrary seems to thrive on this stuff. What was I thinking...... Happy New Year to everyone.
From the previous post link I am a Peter Gabriel fan, and Genesis. Really a fan of British Super Groups in general. I find the links great for the music but the track quality 6 - 6.5 out of 10. This was only with 3 listens.
Unlike last year this is not Christmas music. The quality is excellent as well. You need to create a userid and password but when you go to checkout the amount to pay is $0.00. Available till Jan 6th only.
Here is a list of the downloads.
Almost Like Being In Love 24 Preludes, Op. 28: No. 15 in D flat Major 'Raindrop' The Man Who Sold The World Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F Major, BWV 1047 - III. Allegro Many Rivers To Cross Symphony No. 2 in C major, Op. 61 - III. Adagio espressivo Secret Love The Well-Tempered Clavier Book I: Prelude & Fugue No. 21 in B flat Major, BWV 866 Old Greenwich Time Recorder Concerto in F Major: III. Allegro Twitter and Bisted Flute Concerto: II. Alla Marcia Forty-two Symphonie No. 2 in C minor: III. Scherzo: Massig schnell We'll Never Have Manhattan Sonnerie de Sainte Genevieve du Mont de Paris Giant Steps The End Of A Love Affair Nicholas Drake Requiem in D minor, K. 626: I. Requiem aeternam Pause L'Envie: Vocalise No. 28 Toccata and Fugue in A minor, after Bach BWV 565 Both Sides Now
I gave thought last year to putting my La Platine Granito turntable on battery. A curiosity more than anything else because it was possible due to the very low power requirements. But as a thread only design I did think about how much benefit this could bring in regards to noise floor. The speed when set is already as stable as my Studer when set up right. Time flew by and it was forgotten. With the boat now stored I recently put two marine batteries into the cold storage room, and was reminded again of this past project. I decided to look into this further. What I discovered was interesting, and I found in keeping with this audio business / hobby in general, very consistent and not surprising.
One of the emails.
Dear Sir, Thank you for your kindness.
I don't understand, why do you want to put the motor on a battery? My husband never proposed this fitting , and more he did not want to let the turntable be put on battery. This opportunity was the fact of one of our dealer in GB . Please accept my best regards. Michelle VERDIER
It turns out in discussions with Mrs. Michelle Verdier, that Mr. JC Verdier (RIP) never wanted to put La Platine on battery. Oh, he would offer advice on how to do it to people that inquired; but he himself did not endorse it. I don't know how much funding went into research on it, but it never became an option for production for good reason knowing him from our personal exchanges. My Granito La Platine will remain as is. The curiosity has been quenched. This part feels good. Being put in your place by Mrs. Verdier. Well....I always felt that my best teachers in school were female.
There is no doubt in my mind at all, that his turntable will continue to live on as a timeless design with her in charge.
Appreciate your post Dan - If my wife had her way our house would be filled with as many dogs and cats as there are speakers in the house. I'm the much weaker spouse when it comes to dealing with death and loss of life of any kind. I was one that finally said ok after 2.5 years to get a dog again. Cheers Chris
Koaltar - is a K-9 who loves to chew on expired fire pit coals and is black as tar. hence his name. He is a Black Labrador Retriever, just like our last dog Shadow, who passed just over 2 years ago at the age of 13.5. Koaltar's parents - Dad from Labrador and Mom from PEI, Canada. The breeder moved to Ontario 3 years with his dogs. This is how we found him. My wife and I felt we were ready for another dog. He was bought with purpose. I am looking for a running companion. My wife seems to think I need a babysitter especially when up north. Right now we are babysitting him.
The Tannoy sub is the best match I've found yet for my HPD's.
It seems discussions about subs is almost a taboo subject, like a dirty little secret we won't discuss in public.
Dan - great that you are enjoying your new sub. Now imagine something for a moment. Imagine not one, not two but four subs. Two positioned low similar to other subs you've seen. The other two positioned high near the ceiling. The same quality parts as the other main speaker parts inside, and most importantly - same timber - a match to the other speaker boxes. The subs controlled by Bass Alignment Filters designed by the speaker manufacturer, but made by the same company that made the amp. All this with 93db efficiency. this is the matrix 800 speaker system. old school ? I think not.
btw - I agree with you that adding in a sub is almost a taboo subject on forum talk, but there is some validity to this.
IMO - most times folks are adding in one sub in a constrained room where the bass has a huge effect. A stereo system chain is with a mix of say XX components and all together make up the sound we hear. Adding in a sub results in the multiplier effect that comes into play; a greater chance of rocking the very fragile audiophile boat, and screwing things up. Audiophiles don't need any help in screwing up - everybody here has done it. Also from an analog side its gets much more complicated - if someone is using multiple tonearms / cartridges, I have found this requires different sub settings when you are using a sub with its own amp / controls, separate from what drives the main speakers. This is why I always set up a room with digital and tape first, before bringing in the vinyl artillery. I try to match the bass output quality of the vinyl to some special tapes I have managed to acquire.
Halcro - If my wife is going visiting for a couple of days I plug the 57's in overnight.
If my wife is going visiting for a couple of days....I fill the bath with ice and call Susie to invite the gang over............ But hey....vive le difference....!?
:^)
something tells me Henry that you are going to enjoy the Brothel Post on the ET2 thread.
I, myself, am too far gone, there is no hope for me. This is what happens when one spends too much time with Winnie the Pooh. A clear case imo of just too much time with the bears. What it has taught me however is that every day, a steady diet of endorphins consisting of equal parts - listening to music, running and sex keep a person well balanced. Something to note - I don't listen to music when I run. I need to hear whats in front, beside and sneaking up behind me.
you calling me obsessed Dan? Well I have been called worse.
Maybe I made it sound better than it really is with my kids. They do get a kick when I allow their friends down and I put on something that they can relate to - like tracks from the Eagles - When Hell freezes over for one example. These kids dig classic rock. I have learned not to let my daughter go in there with her boyfriend with the door closed and lights off. But they really just can't figure out why I need all this gear/stuff to make music.
Btw - I am really interested to find out how you make out with the cartridge whiskers on your thread.
Well your question is not a 2-3 sentence answer :^) It depends on the room - A or B. Let me try to explain in a few paragraphs.
Different phenomena happening in each of the rooms. Room A my main room since '94 is easier to pressurize and get serious air movement happening. Pressurizing the room to a certain level is much more conducive to "getting with the music" and allowing the endorphin's to work their magic for me. Just getting lost in the tunes and forgetting where you are. It is a more personal experience - Room A over Room B. The effect of the music in the room takes over and you just want to keep putting more music on. If we remember back to being a kid; for me Room A is kind of like being allowed to go on your favorite ride at the amusement park - whenever you want.
Room B is larger and therefore allows for more spatial information - its almost 20 feet wide and more so deep if I leave room A door open as it is adjacent to it. Its great for entertaining and social gatherings. Its a lot of fun to move different speakers around and see how they react to the rooms boundaries. Spatial information becomes more prevalent, takes center stage over pressurization - especially with the 57's ! It can be a lot of fun. Whenever guests are over I tend to gather with the guys downstairs in room B. The ones that have any interest in 2 channel music (the older ones !) always want to sit in the chair in room A for a few songs with the matrix 800, for a tunes before they leave. I'd like to try the matrix 800 in the larger room, temporarily, just to hear them in there, but as the room my wife relaxes is just above room space B - this is not a great idea ! I would also need her to help me move them. fwiw - The matrix 800 - the only way the matrix 800 speakers come available for sale is when owners are moving to a condo/retirement type residence or Divorce. Rumor has it former Krell boss D'Agostino's speaker/amp reference set up was the Matrix 800's, with my generation of Krell 600 and the Krell manufactured B&W designed bass alignment filters. When I tried to verify this info with Krell - I discovered his name had been stricken from the record books. Like he was never there :^( An important note - The new style 800's (post John Bowers - R.I.P) are similar only in model designation to matrix 800. They are a totally different speaker system, different designer/leader, objective and sound. That's a whole other discussion.
What I find interesting, if I am away for a one week. Both rooms are shutdown and left unplugged. if I go into each room, turn the gear on and start listening to both rooms within 15 mins. They both sound like ka ka. Lifeless, cold sterile, like music is coming from thin little wires - but for different reasons. Room A the preamp and amp need to warm up. The sp11 needs to be on for minimum 4 hours for me; The Krell 600 which is left on auto standby normally - this keeps it at about 70 F / 20 c (from what I can tell based on feel). It needs at least one hour of warm up (meaning on). Room B assuming the Quad 57 are in place, the RM10 amp and AI preamp needs only 10 mins but the 57's need to re-energize especially if it is really dry like during the winter in order to get the HF and lowest bass producing. If my wife is going visiting for a couple of days I plug the 57's in overnight. I can't believe how good the Music Reference RM10 amp drives the 57's. Great with a Jazz trio at moderate levels but when pushed with fuller range music they get congested. This is not evident until you hear the matrix 800 or even the previous 801's do the same music. A sub helps big time as it helps reduce the db level the quads are required to play at. I also set up the sub differently than what I have read on this forum. Still their midrange is a reference point for me in setting up speakers. If I hear what is on the quad mid, with other speakers, same tone, I know the setup is good.
The best word I can think of to describe what I hear in Room A the main room, is effortless. If things are warmed up - all of the OTL magic that was there before, but with a bass presentation that is like sitting in the 4 or 5th row of a live club. In your face air movement on crescendos and music peaks that is very addictive and makes it difficult to leave. The Krell amp in this room is just barely cruising imo. The music midrange tone matches up with my midrange reference Quads in the other room. In fact have had same songs going and walking between the two rooms to demonstrate this to folks. However if I stand at the back side entrance to the main room A door the singers voice still comes from the center of the room. Further fooling you. The greatest sense of (like they are at the microphones) is on the good records. This happens when the pressing is good enough that it allows for me to use the on the fly loading with the SP11 MkII for MC cartridges at 47k.
But Dan, she did send the reply to you...... and every one else on this site. Her reply contained the words "you're all" :^)
My daughter is the most familiar with this ......audiogon-e....... site and my virtual page more so than my wife and son. This means she is probably likely to gain the most when I disappear and this audio stuff needs to be dolled out !
I recall vividly some 14-15 years ago when I was in my "tube rolling phase" how she learned the excitement of ebay winning with me. Winning 4 NOS Amperex bugle boys or Telefunken tubes here and there. They would come in the mail and she would help me put them in the tube tester to see if they were really reading like new as the seller stated in the ad. She knows of the boxes stored in this cabinet containing some 60 plus tubes. Many are for my SP11 MKII preamp which just refuses to go hard on them and the tubes last forever (knock on wood). The SP8 was alot of fun to tube roll with. My Audible Illusions preamp in room 2 has also been great on tubes, contrary to what I read online. So I still have many tubes remaining.
My daughter is the one that made the drawing that is on the entry door to my room when she was just a little girl. I show this pic is in the top link of my virtual page for the Main Room. Now my son - he has expressed the most audio interest with the former black TNT turntable - thought it looked like a tarantula; he thinks the Dynavector tonearm looks cool, and that the matrix 800s are totally bad ass. My wife, well she just likes it best when the door is closed and the music can not be heard upstairs.
Hey Dan you know me...Mr Fun ...heh heh ..being voluntarily retired agrees with me. I used to be the hard ass in the family laying down the law. That role seems to be evolving to my wife. :^0. Well lets call it split duties right now.
You didn't state what the giant piece of wood is for, did I see something about a dock?
Yes tis a new Dock and it reminded me of a couple stories from this summer Id like to share. re: the new dock.
I built our first cottage dock in 1988 6 years before our fraternal twins were born. Over the years I discovered docks are like guys underwear. Guys tend to keep wearing/using both of them and dont replace them as long as they are floating and holding things up? They sort of become a part of you? Is this not true? Anyway this summer my daughter comes up with her b-o-y-f-r-i-e-n-d and says to me. Dad.. that dock is like .....a Ghetto Dock. OK I got it. So some more of their money spent on the new one. We were gone for a week and while gone I noticed a beaver had stuffed branches and leaves into the dock crevices on the shallow side. The beaver seems to really dig this sturdy structure. I also admit less BEER gets spilled on the dock deck.
Cottage Country Music
As is tradition up here and I imagine other places when you boat around the lake in the evening; you see a couple campfires going on from other cottagers. You decide where to shore up and join in on the fun. Stories, stars, loons, wolves, frogs some beverages and some music. Word is on our section of the lake that I am into this audio stuff, and was asked by a cottager to make a music usb stick for them so they can put it in their computer hooked up to a ........Bose Wave Radio.... that he plays from their deck, not too far from the fire pit. Enough music to last from 9pm to the wee hours. I told him no problem. I mean come on we live for this stuff, right ? Imagine a job doing this,
Now the weird part to me was as we were heading home my wife says to me whatever you do not put any Classical music on it. I stood there thinking about what she said but did not reply for some reason. I am still not sure today if this is because she doesnt think classical music gels with a campfire setting with friends; or if she doesnt want to see me start waving my hands around as she has caught me on multiple occasions after a few beverages in my music room listening to Classical music. I like to pretend I am the conductor. Anyone else do this with their hands/arms listening to Classical ?
Led Zep - I normally listen around 70-80 db at home. This is not possible with Led Zeppelin. I need to pick times when I am alone to put on LZ else risk the consequences.
Here is a classic one for the campfire setting around here.
This piece of wood cost me as much as the recent Audio Research DAC8 I acquired. To me watching/hearing all that mass hit the water a few feet away was impressive and not something I see every day, so I thought it would be fun to share it here. The one hour plus it took to tow it to its destination at 2-3 mph was not very impressive. Sorry about the crappy video quality on my old phone. Something a little different.
This 10 x 20 foot piece of wood is likely to last longer than me. Not sure the same can be said about the DAC8 ? Maybe if I stayed off this forum. Right now that piece of wood and the ARC DAC8 are both floating my boat.
Enjoying what is left of summer and hoping for some Indian summer. Some music for gathering round a fire with that special someone? can you say Blue Rodeo
Having a blast learning and this IT guy is in sponge mode right now.
Back in Jan 2014 when I was doing research on which DACs to review and hear, one of the key documents that caught my interest was the ARC short two page white paper on Asynchronous USB 2.0 HS
As a computer guy it made a lot of sense to me. The ARC DAC8 is identical to the current ARC REF DAC except for a tube output stage.
Hello Chris,
The DAC8 uses the same digital chips that are used in the Reference DAC. The REF DAC has a vacuum tube audio output instead of a solid state design.
Please see attached file for more information.
Best Regards,
Kalvin Dahl
Customer Support Manager
I knew I didn't need more tubes in my system. Am very happy where things stand. So a big reason the used DAC8 became a very attractive option for me without having to sell the farm. I have a long way to go to optimize set up but will just be patient and use my ears.
The key part of the ARC USB white paper that stands out to me is that the ARC engineers/designers indicate that the DAC needs to be - the host, the master (Alpha); the Computer part, just the SLAVE. I wonder what percentage of other DAC's follow this approach ?
I read from some (not all) audiophiles on the forum here about their bias against USB, saying it was never meant for music. My take on it is that what is being passed by the computer is not a music signal but just 0's and 1's. They need to arrive safely.
Its the DAC's job once this "data" not music is received, to convert it to analog and send the now music signal on its way. Hence the DAC needs to be the Alpha carrying the load. For the digital audio veterans I hope I have it explained it correctly ? If not pls correct me. I would also welcome comments on the ARC white paper from any technical folks.
Having fun - happy Listening. Vinyl Rules still. :^)
It did indeed. I went, I saw, I heard and more. What I heard was convincing enough that I managed to deplete our bank account and did not come home empty handed. I heard a number of DACs at a couple of dealers as well as all in one CD players with DACs internal - some costing much more than good used cars and smaller new cars. How do I tell you what I heard without sounding repetitive and boring. I may need to brush up on my consulting skills if this kind of behavior continues so here is something that I hope tells the tale.
What ? you guys were expecting to see some shiny gear ? Looking at my slide, imo if you are a music lover and the music tone meets your approval either music presentation works. The agreeable music tone is what allows you to listen to hours and hours of music if allowed. Isn't this the objective here ? Well its one of my objectives. Now if you are also cursed with having being born with any part of this audiophile disease, then I think you will much prefer the bottom presentation - as long as the tone is still good. By tone - for myself I prefer organic sounding, musical, but still extended and full range, very smooth and airy like analog vinyl and tape.
So I added the Audio Research DAC8 to my room. A fairly new (slightly used) piece bought from an ARC authorized dealer on consignment from an actual brick and mortar retail store. Too good a deal to pass up for me as the bulk of depreciation has already happened. I heard it in two different rooms at this dealer site. They needed to move it as the Esoteric CD Player I wanted to compare it with was in another room. The folks who did this were very nice. Vienna Acoustic speakers in one room and Sonus Faber in the other room. fwiw - I really liked the VA speakers. Filled the space beautifully despite their small size.
The actual DAC8 I bought. I was told the previous owner of this DAC was a frequent flyer - if you know what I mean. Kind of like a day trader stock broker with audio gear. All I can say - thank u Mister, whoever you are - for breaking this DAC in for me and keeping it in mint condition. Or did you even break it in? From ARC it requires 600 hours for break in. Guess I will find out. And I thought phono cartridge break in times were bad.
Some preliminary listening at home. The CD's have never sound so good, so for me it was a good move. It has brought me closer to the many Music Cd's I own. Maybe its the synergy with my ARC preamp. Also my ears tell me claims by ARC of it being optimized for use with USB (just as good as S/PDIF) also seem to be hold promise. I am no where near getting this optimized but I do sense some real potential here. It doesn't get any easier than 5 steps to be up and running. 1) Load the ARC software drivers from cd. Connect the DAC with USB so it recognizes it. Set the sampling rate. 2) Insert music cd into your laptop cd tray. 3) When your music player pops up to play it - select RIP cd option instead. In 5 minutes it is loaded onto your hard drive. 4) Hook up a decent USB cable - the same style as printers use (you are probably wireless now) 5) Double click on the album and your listening to your music.
Like i said not optimized just up and running but very impressed so far.
Busy waving around the red and white today. I mean the flag not wine. So Happy Canada Day to everyone and to my American friends too for the upcoming July 4th. Two important days to remember representing both our countries independence. I find it interesting ..... The Americans earned their independence by going to war with the British. We Canadians ...well we took a different route. We had a meeting with them...told them it's been really cool hanging together but we are now ready to go it alone. So they said ok.....
DAC update. Back in town and will be heading to the big smoke (city) as we call it here to listen to at least two DACs this holiday weekend. This time the ARC DAC8 and an ESOTERIC, can't remember the model. I will be lugging my trusty Saturn with me with its favorite power cord under my arm. I will take the new Natalie Merchant CD with me. This new CD of hers has some really strong bass lines and is I believe a good weight test of the transport / DAC harmony. Will be a bigger test of the dealer showroom. Also will take Alison Krauss & Union Station - so long so wrong - cd. I came away unconvinced with the PS Audio PW DAC2 this spring. Just as well I guess with the Direct Stream now out. Even though digital is a secondary source for me as an audiophile; as a music lover I want to now get as close to vinyl and tape as I can get with all the cds I have. I am very leery about using any of my kids inheritance for anything digital - except music ; even though they (kids) are doing their best to make me want to spend the money. Its going to take hearing something significant in the dealer room to make this purchase. The dealer showroom has so far been imo the bottleneck in showing differences. If these rooms that are semi permanent with lots of time for setup can't be sorted out, then what do you really expect from sounds coming from Room 2134 at some hotel ? A home trial is not possible. happy listening.
Latest music pickups including Classical, two Popular ladies and Led Zep Used Classical Lps from two visits to my secret place. Brahams Symphony No. 4 on VOX. Mahler Symphony No. 4 G Minor - (Banquo as you are a fan of Mahler) I am hoping this one works out but it looks kind of rough. Hoping its mostly surface crud and not groove deep. A Mozart 7 lp box set in new condition that I got for next to nothing, a German Telefunken produced JS Bach LP - " Kreuzstab-Kantate Ich habe genung" ?? Regardless the price was right. I like surprises. Schubert Symphony No. 8 Unfinished - Telefunken, and No.9 Deutsche Grammophon. yet another version of ......1812 Overture... this time on London Records. The other lps picked up of various composers are on Decca, Phillips and London labels.
New Music from the ladies. Sarah McLachlan Shine On, in Lp format; Natalie Merchant's new album, self titled only available in Cd. You know I am a biased music fan of both ladies so telling you how much I enjoy both these albums would be pointless ? Anyway the Natalie Merchant album is excellent musically and sonically - so I don't miss an LP version not being available (until you hear it as they say in this hobby - you don't know) The new Sarah Lp - I listened to it in digital first. It took 3 listens before it started getting through to me. If I wasn't a huge fan I would maybe have been turned off of it initially. She's turned a corner and appears looking for a new man in her life.... Sarah's vinyl is in an excellent package, much better than the previous Illusions LP with 11 songs spread over two discs. Verve Music Group UMG recordings, Santa Monica CA. How is it possible for vinyl to sound so good ? You will need to get up off your arse FOUR TIMES to handle two records to get through this regular length album. So now you know the real reason my turntable and preamp are right next to my listening chair within arms reach... well that plus standing bass waves from speakers. There is well over one inch of runout on each disc.
Led Zep The latest good news on the Lep Zep remasters got me curious so I started looking for the Led Zep Lps somewhere in my record wall. To be honest, in my younger days (17?) I found Led Zep just ok; was never a really huge fan. But they were really big in Canada so everyone here knows all their songs just from radio play alone. I was more into the other British super groups, Beatles, PF, Genesis, Supertramp, to name a few. From what I seem to remember, those really into Led Zep back then (when I was in high school) were just a little older than me - born like way back in the 50's. :^))) I am a product of the 60's. 8^) lol....
Well I found, pulled and have been listening to lps 2 to 5, minus 1 & 3 - where did they disappear to ? Find myself really digging these earlier albums much more now than ever before. That raunchy, groovy, bluesy, folk, rock sound is addictive. So much so that the music was pounding out on the matrix 800's. It brought a visit from the Warden with a warning. Then it dawned on me - I didn't even know this Warden lady when I was in high school and this music was first seen on the music charts. I've read some wonder why this music is on the charts again ?
Count me in as one of those that have re-discovered this band and their music. I picked up Led Zep 1 remastered which also includes 2 lps of the France concert (3 lps in total), Will also pick up Led Zep III when its available in store in town. Excellent vinyl packaging, very quiet and flat vinyl - pressed in Germany - Atlantic. Happy listening.
Led Zep 1
"I can't quit you babe I guess I got to put you down for a while. "
Sam - the LA Kings are ahead of the New York Rangers 2 games to 0 in the Stanley Cup final. Do you know how much money the people in the Greater Toronto Area (over 6 million people) each would cough up dollar wise just to see the Maple Leafs make it to the damn final ?
Wife is away for a few days so I decided to spark up the Quads + sub which are in Room Two. this Room 2 is just below her favorite room. Not good. So I took advantage of the opportunity. Its been a long time since listening to music in that room and it has the TV to watch the game. An observation - with humidity hovering around 58 it didn't take long for the Quads to start producing 40 hz again. You can start playing music after 1 - 2- 3 hours and they sound like transistor radios as the panels re-energize and come back to life. During the winter if no humidifier and 35-40 humidity level they can take two days to come to life when left unplugged. Cheers
The TASCAM DA-3000 is an appealing product as it features BNC SDIF-3 inputs and outputs...one can pass native DSD signals if one prefers a different DSD DA converter than what is available on the DA-3000. It is DSD128.
Sam - thx for this info. Very interesting product.
"Tascam is introducing the DA-3000, a high-resolution master recorder that writes files at 192kHz/24-bit or Direct Stream Digital at 2.8MHz or 5.6MHz. The DA-3000 replaces their DV-RA1000HD, which recorded to hard drive or DVD media. The A/D converters are Burr Brown PCM4202 and the D/A is a pair of PCM1795s. A new transformer-based power supply has been created, with separate supplies for the analog and digital components."
I did some research on the weekend. The DA3000 allows you to connect your CD Player to it; and burn your cd's to DSD or WAV format on a flash card. The flash card content can then loaded onto your hard drive or used directly (flashcard - 32gig) with the DA3000 as DSD input into your system. This is important to me as I said earlier I have a fair number of cd's.
I am going to look further into this.
fwiw
The Tascam DA3000 for D/A uses two PCM1795's. The flagship $10,000 Rega Ishis CD Player/DAC uses two PCM1794.
I wonder what the difference is ?
Looks like Rega went away from the Wolfson D/A which my Saturn uses.
REGA SATURN D/A - 2 x Wolfson WM8740 Sanyo SF-P101N
REGA ISIS D/A - 2 x PCM1794 Sanyo SF
For anyone looking to get into turntables and finding the market selections (new or used) a little overwhelming; imagine trying to pick a new or used DAC.
DSD128 is very good...haven't listened to DSD256, yet. Should you have the opportunity, audition the non-oversampling, i.e., NOS, DACs from Audio Note.
Hi Sam - really appreciate the info. :^) I will look into them. I think its the hunt and research that sometimes can be the most fun part of this ? I know there are a couple of threads of folks doing comparisons with these new DACs. Some have the funds to have secured a few of them in their own room, same time. You really do need to hear the components in your own room. Your comment about the Audio Note is also very interesting, as Lukasz of Lampizator also made a reference to Audio Note's Level 5 same as his Big 6; according to his opinion, sounding closest to Reel to Reel.
Hi Dan
I probably listen to more CD's than vinyl, mainly due to not being in the mood to go through the motions required for vinyl. In other words, I'm lazy.
Imagine if we had to go through all those 010101 motions to type out 6 words to communicate with each other ? Well we are doing it here...hah !! excuse me but I find that funny. That keyboard is starting to look a little more complex now isn't it ? Damn I just spilled some coffee on it.... Quick - turn it upside down
I remember the day I got into digital and bought the Denon DCD 1500 new. It was considered a reference player back then. if you can believe it I still have it - hoarder just like my wife - it sounds a little dark now. But I would probably take dark to bright if I had a choice. My first real job at 17 or 18? years of age involved punching out computer cards on this really big typewriter and reading them into this massive reader. All 0's and 1's. So "the computer" could understand what to calculate. Has anything really changed? I also find it interesting with digital that the players reading the exact same cd with same 0's and 1's, have different tone and presentations? With records and turntable setups - no two are alike - the record source ... or the table/tonearm/cartridge setups.
Dan - its two years almost to the day that my previous company shut down the Canadian consulting team that I was part of. And it took 6 months away from work for me to realize what I had been putting up with and how it was affecting me. I have one more step coming. I have been in the weeds with Analog the last 7-8 years. As I do have many cd's there is right now quite the delta between vinyl and digital for me on my main table. Now for the last 5 or 6 years I have been bringing my digital player to high end shops and comparing against leading DACs and transports. The differences have always been subtle - not enough to entice me to make a move. That says alot imo about my 7 year old digital player as it relates to me. Also the presentations in these showrooms has always sounded very digital even with my player inserted. I couldn't tolerate that for 15 minutes in my room. Just more reason imo you really need to hear gear in your own room.
The most recent visit two months ago was to a shop that featured PS Audio PW II and transport, Pass Labs Amp and Preamp and Gershwin speakers. Once more with my player inserted and then the PS Audio the differences were very subtle and the sound was very squeaky clean - not for me. The connection I get with vinyl and tape .....not there. At home I can have all digital listening sessions and they are enjoyable because I am a music lover. But there is a big delta with my main vinyl table in room 1. There is an ease in the music (maybe the ease is with me) but anyway the delta is there and it is quite large.
I am hoping the latest DSD DAC's will make a difference. I will be using the summer to review and study up more on them. Have been in discussions with PS Audio and Lukasz at Lampizator as just a couple of manufacturer examples. Lukacz seems to thinks his Big 6 DAC comes closest to vinyl and tape. With the money I have raised from culling I will probably bringing in a DAC this fall to try to bring all that digital music I have closer to vinyl and tape. Cheers
You state that on your Technics SP-10 set-up, that the spindle resonates at 5-7hz. Correct me if I'm misquoting you or if I'm totally wrong. How do you come up with this measurement?
Slaw - the numbers are for the resonance on the ET2 spindle on its own and come from Bruce from his testing. These numbers were also posted on the ET2 thread a ways back in a couple of areas. I dug up one of the posts where they are referenced.....here
fwiw and I think you share the opinion on this. I trust the numbers I get from Bruce from his testing. He is imo one of the most unbiased, reliable and consistent sources for all things vinyl. So I am a messenger in this case on this info and a user. I had numbers and a lot of other info listed under the ET 2.5 tag, as well as other areas on my page but I lost most of this data when there was a problem with my virtual page late last year. When I got back access to the page earlier this year, due to the number of views which is at well over 310,000 as of today, I decided to keep my system page public and have been adding to it with relevant info as I go; in the hope it is still interesting and helpful to others.
My two ET tonearm setups.
The ET tonearm that is on the SP10mkII that you referenced is in Room 2, is the ET 2.0 with a MM - its spindle resonates at 5-7 hz as mentioned. I use this setup to mostly test out used records I buy. I think I have at least 250 used records in rows waiting in that room 2. Lets be honest; as we get older time becomes shorter and shorter. I will probably never get to all these records. Once in a while I pull from here and if it sounds ok in Room 2 I bring it to room 1.
The ET tonearm on La Platine in room 1 is an ET 2.5, it has an MC cartridge. The ET 2.5 spindle as you know is wider in diameter and heavier than the ET 2.0. It makes sense therefore that it resonates at 2-3 hz. This is my main table setup. I keep about 200-250 records on the floor in that room 1 in specific rows - these are active play records. The other records are in the wall unit behind my listening chair - maybe another 800 - 1000 or so there not sure. I don't really think about it
fwiw - I also own 1000 or so cd's. There is a lot of music on cd I like that is just not available on vinyl, hard to get, or its cost too high for me. in my current state anyway.
An update. Current status of "voluntarily retired from work" continues.... much to the chagrin of my wife and kids. I am just having too much fun. My main room - circa 1994..... a little audio philosophy. The room objective continues in trying to recreate the band and small venue visceral experiences of my youth. But also play all the music well that I want to hear; especially as I grow older and branch into other genre's more deeply. This room deals with being able to pressurize the room and become one with the performance. This is not about picking out that trumpet or flute and listening for its tone or decay. I am a music lover ..this is about being immersed in the entire music presentation; to become lost .....for a while anyway...at least until the the wife comes a calling. Its not about where they (musicians) are in my room but why they are there .... their overall message to me while I listen to them. Does it motivate and stir emotions in me .......if it does ....their music gets repeated in my room. Sometimes the message (lyrics) are more important than the sonics.....
The impact of the performance as we know can be addictive, therapeutic and this should lead to a "healthy" state. Leading imo to greater Gestalt for each of us individually.
We have all heard the phrase.. Release the hounds. This is about .... Releasing the Endorphins.... thats what this hobby means to me. ok, ok .... enough of my personal audio philosophy.... you are allowed to do this on your own thread ... you Know ?
Matrix 800 What can I say...have had more than enough time with them now. What a stupid (sick) speaker this is. Updated pics posted. Spring has arrived and I can't seem to keep myself out of my main room come afternoon, every day till whatever hour, everyday that I am home. Even as the daylight hours now grow longer with each day. This in itself can't be a healthy habit.
801 matrix versus matrix 800
801 The 801's are like a couple of wild horses...... even though I have nicknamed them Winnie the Pooh for myself. If you have patience and learn from your mistakes the rewards with them I feel can be truly great. They could be anyone's last speaker. But you need to be the stubborn type for which this hobby is a selfish desire for yourself; not concerned about others perceptions, or status based on money. You also need a dedicated space and an accommodating spouse. Don't even consider the 801 if you don't have the these two things in place already.
The matrix 800 in continuing with the horse analogy ? ; are like that seasoned Equestrian horse that just won its 3rd Olympic Gold Medal. They can do no wrong it seems for me. Currently combined with the Krell 600 and Krell BAF I am the closest I have ever been to recreating the atmosphere of the venues in my younger days. is there a fountain of Youth ?
His review, along with a couple of other matrix 800 owners input; helped coax me to make the jump to the matrix 800 after 19 years with the 801 s3 matrix.
I am not selling the 801 s3. To raise needed cash for music or other gear I am selling ....other stuff. My daughter seems the more likely candidate (based on personality type) to get the 801 s3 right now. Very different personalities my son and daughter even though they are separated at birth by only two minutes. She came out first and holds that over my son at every opportunity.
I tried your test and I get no noise except a little buzzing from the tweeter--that's always been there, even when I had shielded cables.
Banquo, I wonder what the buzzing is ..both tweeters ? if you could substitute another amp in, that would help eliminate the amp.
Once u go unshielded there is no return - imo Its a little more work to get them working in a high RF area. But the sound that much closer to what the tape sounds like. Does it sound more alive to you ?
Are your wires separate strands? Mine are twisted together.
An analogy first. Banquo looking at your audiophile dog on your audiogon page - is he trained well when walking ? Meaning - when u walk him does the leash stay limp and relaxed or does he pull on it ? The reason I ask - The ET2 tonearm design is one of a free bird. Its doesn't need the actual wires and/or the air tube to help with damping like other air bearing tonearms. The air tube is separate from the moving air bearing spindle. The wires are needed by the cartridge. So a necessity for the signal - need to be set up in a way so they stay limp and relaxed; like the leash when walking a well trained dog. This way the ET2 can trace "walk" the record groove smoothly. So the wires need to be set up for the least resistance with the ET 2.0 and 2.5 so they stay limp and don't move.
The wires themselves is a catch 22 situation - imo. You want them braided as it helps to inhibit noise but; braiding them causes the wires to become more restrictive and even twist on you. This is how my old VPI JMW tonearm induced ANTISKATE by design. You would actually twist the wires one turn one way or the other depending on how much force you wanted to induce.
My first loom from Gene at Take Five Audio was braided. I learned the hard way and unbraided all of it. Now I braid just the section along the armtube; then the four strands, like hair - go their own way to the common point on the shelf next door where the preamp is. They form a happy face loop in between platforms. (pics can be seen on my audiogon page)
I personally feel if Bruce Thigpen (ET2 tonearm designer/manufacturer) was not so busy building his unique speakers, and enjoying his personal plane...he would have figured out a way to go wireless by now.
Hi Banquo - in regards to cable risers. I have some that I made. I have also managed to trip myself up behind the amp /speakers with them. they can be dangerous. I use them to be more neat and tidy and avoid power cord /amp input and speaker wires/cables touching each other. if for some reason they need to cross I try to do it at 90 degress and I will use a cable riser to separate them.
With the tonearm looms, it is much more critical and I use unshielded wire. This is what I do with them.
Test for Radio Frequency (RF) interference first. Using my cell phone I bring it near the area where the tonearm wires are in behind the preamp and see what the strength indicator says on the device - how strong is the RF in the area ?
For example:
on our main floor the Bell cellular signal is a full four bars. But in my music room the signal strength varies considerably dropping to two bars in the area of the room near the preamp.
To test the actual tonearm wires its almost the same as testing for structure feedback that we have discussed here before. Put system on mute. With the turntable not turning - lower your cartridge onto a still record. unmute and with record still not turning turn the volume up. i start moving the tonearm wires around behind the preamp. With the unshielded wire I will hit RF and hear noise through speakers; then move the wire a touch even a quarter inch more and it disappears. I attach that wire with a small piece of Blue tack so there is no noise. I repeat for the other three wires.
Hi Slaw I really wasn't sure how to answer your question so I broke it into two parts.
"you have so many rooms/systems/ongoing threads"
Re: the rooms/systems - I guess I am like a bad virus. If I frequent a room enough a system usually ends up in there. my wife accepts it. She knows I could be outside the house somewhere getting into no good. I actually only have two active rooms now. They are adjacent to each other. Whats kind of neat is I can stand in the doorway between both; play the same music in both and hear the differences - left ear hears one room - right ear hears the other room. Lately though (last couple months) room 2 has been really quiet as I can't keep myself out of my main room. If this continues I will need to reassess things.
Do you have time for a job?
As far as work goes, right now - no - I have not gone back. I am having too much fun. I have multiple hobbies and dealing with two 19 years olds taking up all my time. I guess I am sort of retired for now at 52. I made decisions earlier on in life that allowed for this. Nothing fancy and we have had to cut back on lifestyle. This is easy to do when you realize family and time are most important. I just need to convince the others.
Luckily l have some gear inventory remaining to raise cash. So.....same as my former employer who for financial reasons culled the entire Canadian division I worked for, I started culling in 2013 and it continues in 2014. Everything listed under notables on my page plus a few other items have been sold or are a candidate to be sold.
Krell's version of the 800 Bass Alignment Filter on its way to me from the US. Damn that Canadian dollar. What happened? It was worth more than the US dollar not so long ago. The Krell bass equalizer will be inserted into the chain and the Maughan Anodyne - Listen Up Box removed. I am expecting there to be synergy with the Krell amp. But the modded ARC preamp with its very unique variable gain output is the wildcard. Also updated the system description and some pics.
The piece of thread that is powering my turntable is at least one year old now. I find this incredible; but even more so the design of the Verdier which obviously puts very little strain on it. If held between your hands the thread is easily broken with some force. The silk thread was bought at Fabricland for $2.36. I have enough for many lifetimes at this rate. All the fun with the amp and speakers and listening to music has delayed me from the project to convert the Verdier to battery. Just not in the right frame of mind to attempt this. In the cold room I have 2 marine batteries being stored. they will be heading back in the boat - soon I hope.
Hi Dan - the power of music. just keeps on giving. Glad you liked that album. I'm in the mode of rediscovering my collection right now. So much music just not enough time. I am going to include Jesse Cook's Vertigo album in listening later today. Cheers Chris
The KRELL - 800 combo has made the other speakers really lonely. So much so that I turned off the Quads a couple weeks ago. There is at least 100 hours on the KRELL now. Feeling guilty l decided to spark the 57's up. The panels need some humidity to be able to charge. Its only 35 (very low) humidity in that room. When I went to listen to them after 8 hours, they sounded like transistor radios. hah ! I quick call to Ken at Electrostatic Solutions confirmed the dry air makes charging take much longer. So I left them plugged in - will try them again tomorrow - after a I watch Canada go for gold at Mens Hockey.
2-17-14: Islandmandan Chris, "Gravity" is on order from CD Universe. Getting ready for some finger-snapping and foot-stomping!
Look forward to your impressions of the album Dan. there was a system glitch, your posts and others from Feb 14 were on duplicate thread elsewhere. problem has been fixed....
as an update. Sold Classe CA300 amp to raise funds. The new owner bought the amp for 1 ohm Apogee Scintilla speakers. Received feedback yesterday that they sound great with the amp.
Dear Dan these public chat forums can be really funny places sometimes. what people post can be misunderstood. I don't want to be misunderstood here. a few of the words that stand out to me in your last post are.
**I've got no where to go** **boring**
In 35+ years at his hobby, "consciously" I have never ever came close to any of those words. This hobby for me is as much about learning as it is enjoying the music. Freedom.
Another word you used that I feel is very very important.
**tinkering**
Some music lovers/audiophiles like to tinker and get involved. Others just want to hit the play button. Remember a couple of years ago when we were emailing each other on how to build that alignment jig for your Dynavector tonearm? I am willing to bet that activity was very satisfying for you; not only because you got your tonearm up and running but you actually built the jig to make it work. A brilliant piece of engineering that jig is imo. This type of learning can't stop.
Sometimes we match two components up and magic happens for us. We can feel like there is no where else to go with it. My Quad 57/RM10 combination is one example of this for me. I have no intention of breaking them up. Can that gear in that room play all the music I like to my satisfaction? NO It can do maybe 20-25% of it well. But what it does well - it does really really well. I just brought a new speaker into a room after 19 years with the existing ones. Other speakers also saw that room. It will take some time to sort out. This is part of the audio journey. Always learning. I'm looking forward to it.
Now I am a huge Jesse Cook fan. Here is music that I find anything but boring .... guaranteed to perk you up ...and forget just plain toe tapping... you will be up and dancing ....
Jesse Cook - from the Gravity album. Listen to the drums at 1:58
Hey Dan - hows it going. The heat coming from this KRELL amp could "maybe" keep a pizza warm. thats about it and thats ok with me.
I did give thought to recycling the OTL heat. Each OTL monoblock had 16 Horizontal Sweep Output Tubes. Unfortunately -when I built out that room in '94 the priority was isolation Had to make sure the music would not reach the wife or wake the babies up. I eliminated all vents in the room for sound travel when I closed and packed up the ceiling. On the main floor I guess the amps could have been placed near the cold air return vents ? that way the heat and sound could travel down to the furnace where with its blower, it would help send the music to every room in the house... hah !
Access to the virtual system page has been off and on again since mid Dec '13. The consultant in me likes to change the look of the page around. I get bored with it. I had deleted most entries and was in the process of uploading when I lost access ....for a month. hah hah.... I'm used to the condensed version now. seems back and stable. uploaded a few new pics including a pic of the matrix 800 crossovers.
An update. The engine has been changed in room 1. The OTL 195 amps brought me some really nice music. Surreal at times. I can even say it was addictive. The ultimate test however is time. In the end they just did not fit in with my audio hobby lifestyle. Think.......HEAT.....and lots of it. If a longer session you start shedding clothes; ending up in your skivvies (or less) by the end. this can be ok when you are 25. Wifey comes in and it could lead to interesting things... but when you hit 50 ....sometimes there are different results. I think what put it over the top....... was when I had them set up with the Acoustat on the main floor.
Scenario This room is about about 12.5 feet by 30 feet. Do you see the white thermostat housing on the right wall ? Its an older pic as I have sold the ET speakers that can be seen. Do you see where this is heading? btw- Its a great room for setting up Planars and ESL's in midfield. You can see the ET speakers in midfield. The Acoustats would be moved up a few feet for listening. Anyway With me listening to music in a room that is (apparently getting warmer - like the music) - unknown to me - the rest of the house is dropping in temp.... in what is probably the worst winter, since I have cared to think about the weather. I think it got to about 65F when my wife suspecting something came in and said: "Why is the house so cold ?" ...immediately followed by... "Hey , why is it so warm in here !?" The heat from the OTLs disengaged the thermostat. :^( Oh well. Life moves on.... I can take a hint.
Another observation. I trialed my backup Classe amp with the 800's for a stretch. The 800 matrix are separated by only one number with the 801 matrix but are a totally different speaker in design, execution, presentation and power requirements. 800's are 93 db, a 4 ohm load and are recommended with an amp of 150-800 wpc. 801's are 87 db, rarely dip below 5 ohms and are recommended with 50 wpc - 600 wpc.
My Classe Amp - 300 wpc 8 ohms - 600 wpc at 4 ohms. Seriously in the sweetspot with the 801? Numbers say it should be fine with the 800 matrix too .... And it did work ok with them but not well enough. Easy to reach listening levels without working up a sweat and never getting more than luke warm. Probably stayed in Class A for most of the time. No issues there. But some aspects of the music was just unsatisfying with the 800's, or just not there. I found the lower bass presentation "light", requiring speaker placement changes closer to boundaries. Still it was light.... The extended highs although ok, were definitely for me - better in the past - with tube amps. The midrange was really nice with the Classe; when compared directly to my midrange reference Quad 57's with RM10 amp in the adjacent room. So the mids were good - but the low bass and extended highs left something to be desired. 1 out of 3. I went on the hunt for a replacement. (In all honesty I think the nature of this hobby is - that you need to be on the hunt for something all the time ? This is a guy thing ? I think the key is to hunt for low priced - good music)
I searched the internet for other owners of matrix 800's, managing to make contact with a couple. This allowed me to talk to them about their experiences and was invaluable to me. Googling virtual system setups around the world showed some interesting setups.
Some owned tube amps with the 800 - Large Monoblocks like ARC and VTL, other.... Krell was very popular, along with Jeff Rowland, Mark Levinson and McIntosh. Some were using SS on the woofers and tube on the mids and highs. Some were using a full active crossover system. Krell, Pass Labs and others sell active crossovers.
Each driver of the 800 speaker system including each of the woofers have their own crossover allowing for this. I am active on the four woofers right now as designed from the factory.
I almost went for some KRELL FPB350 monoblocks. I considered Classe M400 and M600 monoblocks. thought about adding a second Classe like my own and bridging it to try out ? One never became available at a good price. I ended up choosing a KRELL FPB600. I inserted it into the system beginning of last week.
From the moment I heard the first bit of music especially with any dynamics it was like being hit by something. Its one thing to again hear those missing "mothers milk" notes; they were there with the OTL's. Its another thing however to actually feel the physical weight of them. What I had been missing up to now with the 800's caught me by surprise. I was not expecting it. Never had I had, such air movement and deep tight bass (control) like this before on my limited time with the 800's.
The KRELL brought back that bottom octave with such an authority; I was able to (well had to) place the speakers back out from the boundaries. Tonal balance was restored. It was off with the Classe amp on some material. The highs (on all music now - not just some) more linear and extended, smooth and shimmering again - reminiscent of tube amps. Too early to tell if as satisfying to me. The all important midrange - very nice.
This is not about playing at ridiculous SPL levels. I regularly have long listening sessions at a 75-80 db average. It is about headroom and control. This FPB600 has it in spades. Some perspective. The FPB600 is more than twice the KRELL amp the reviewer in Stereophile demoed with his 800's. I thought about just going with a Krell 250-300 wpc amp or monoblocks. This is where actual owners experience with those smaller and larger amps convinced me otherwise. So things are really good right now again system wise in my main room. Back with Class A Solid State amplification.
Thanks for the reply Charles. thats too bad... would have liked to hear impressions. I could never afford them myself anyway. Maybe I can try them in 5 years time when they are available used on audiogon and kids out of school. Cheers Chris
Hi Charles1dad - if you see this; my earlier post of pretending to be in Vegas and hearing the Holly Cole Trio; reminded me of some pictures I saw earlier in January of CES 2014 The SHOW.
11-16-13: Charles1dad
I don't believe that the B&W 801 with its low ohm lmpedance would be a good idea with a SET amplifier.
Did you manage to get to CES 2014 The SHOW and if you did, did you hear the AudioNote room. Powering 801's with their flagship SET Kagura Amp I believe - 50 watts - 4, 8, 16 ohm settings ?
Would appreciate your opinion on the sound in this room if you did. thanks.
Banquo - glad you found some of that music enjoyable. The Holly Cole Trio lp was still available when I linked it. :^( If I discovered one day that I owned a record that was worth $200-300-400 on the market. I would probably be too scared to play it in the fear of it being dropped or something like that. If I liked it a lot and it was the only copy I had. I would probably buy two fresh RTR blank tapes @ $50 bucks each. Play it once, record it at 15 IPS. Then store the record away !
That Natalie Merchant has an unforgettable voice--except that I forgot all about it. That is, until I heard the first few notes from your link. Then the memories...
Of the artists you listed, please name your top 3 records.
Banquo - imo there is no such thing as a top three in this hobby whether discussing music or equipment. Providing u with a 1,2,3 selection, is also just a snapshot for one music session as it does change every day. this is because of the music we listen to. I believe Some we listen to ... to pump us up from being down. Some we listen to ... to calm us down. then there is the stuff in between. I believe our subconscious is very much at work here in choosing what we listen to every day. Since this is unique to each of us a bit of insight is always required into the individual's current situation before you hear their selections 1,2,3.
Since you asked for my 1,2,3 - here is some insight into it. Two 19 years olds, one male, one female, (separated 2 mins apart at birth) show up at front door 2 weeks before Christmas 2013. The house is turned upside down. Once the first week of January is complete. One returns to school away from home per plan. What a good girl she is. The other (the male); well his plans did not work out; so he remains and has currently no work or school plans. He also has an insatiable appetite for food, drink, my vehicle and no gas money. $1.25 a litre for regular gas here.
After a month of the above whenever frustrated, instead of getting upset or angry, I choose to adjourn to my room one when appropriate and listen to females crooning to me as they have this amazing effect of calming me down. Now I have been told by multiple parents with older children, that this is just a phase for him, and I just may have - 6 more years of this left ! So based on the above, hopefully it is understood now why I have been listening to all those females lately?
Now I apologize but I also can't keep this to just three like you asked .
So to start off and in keeping with the current cold weather theme in the north half of the US and here...
Kate Bush - 50 Words for Snow - Alternative Rock, Accoustic Made in EU - Abbey Road Studios. Excellent packaging and sonic. The two discs keep the stylus playing on the outer grooves.
way way too rich for me - so I listen to the CD for this one. it is very good. Now if I got a master tape dub copy for the above price ...that is different. as this album is an absolute masterpiece to me.
**** Holly Cole Trio - Girl Talk ***** Jazz recorded live at Stephen Leacock theatre (near me), in two track using a a single Calrec Ambisonic Microphone.
Again just one more time in keeping with the cold weather theme; and for smucks like me stuck in this nasty winter this music will make you feel like you are on a trip to Vegas in February; In a club all alone with your spouse, and the Holley Cole Trio is performing just for the both of you. And - If your spouse doesn't want to listen with you; you can maybe role play with her ? Ask here nicely to pretend she is a Vegas waitress and to bring you something on the rocks while you listen. Maybe by the end of the album she will give you her phone number...
Can u picture the Vegas Lounge Bar listening to it ?
***************************************************************** Now some heavier, weightier music from two women that both love their bass. Well Kate Bush does too. Fully fleshed out folk, softer rock type ballads.
Natalie Merchant Tigerlily, Bearsville Studios, NY
Sarah is my make believe GF, so I am really biased here. All LP's you can find of her's especially the older ones - go for it. The earlier albums if you can find any have skyrocketed in price so I am stuck with some CD's for those; which is not too bad since sound quality is good.
For me all of the above music calms me and is a snapshot for just one session. The next session will be different and there are many more women artists I like. So much music - so little time. Hope some of these selections bring some joy to you or others reading.
Cheers
..... I think this post takes the record for number of links.
When I bought my house 3 years ago, I hadn't caught the audio bug yet, so did not take it into account.
We get over bugs? Me thinks this is something more serious. I am 51 now and have been consciously aware of this condition since I was ...well at least 14 since this is when I started working part time and remember making audio purchases - music with my money at Sam the Record Man in Toronto.
But your point is very important, imo - you know your an audiophile/music lover when you are shopping for houses with your spouse and "the space", its dimensions and how well it is physically isolated from the rest of the house, becomes as important to you, as her walk in closet and nice kitchen.
What a stupidly cold and snowy winter. Music wise my girlfriends have been helping to keep me warm. Sarah McLachlan, Natalie Merchant, Kate Bush, Patricia Barber, Chantal Kreviazuk, Amanda Wilkinson along with some Classical and Jazz lately. Cheers
Banquo363 - and it tends to get louder as the evening wears on.
Banquo - Sounds like you might headed toward a dedicated room ? You would probably love to have a full empty basement to do as you please? But the reason for that full basement - you would not relish. Happy New Year to you too. Did you get a chance to hear that great amp of yours with the 57's yet ?
Dover - hah hah your post reminded me of something I remember from ages ago in grade 8 or around there. over hearing two friends in school talking to one another.
Friend One: Hey - guess what man ... Led Zeppelin is coming to Maple Leaf Gardens on Oct 16.
Friend Two: Is he ?
Dover - I am surprised you didn't bring up the fact that the link was a promotional lip sync session? anyway she's totally new to me. fwiw - whatever musicians/singers want to call themselves. the way I see it LORDE can't do it without the keyboard and drummer guy. well actually she could - unplugged I guess but she doesnt on the cd. she is a vocalist only.
You would never know from the youtube source (or on my Quad 57's) that this song was engineered with really serious bass. Lots of bass is common with the younger generation (my teenagers). Its also helping me to dial in the bass with the 800's. A came across this tune as it played on my little exercise radio while I was running; Later I was in the mall on boxing day and inquired about it. I enjoy listening to young people singing especially when running, as their music gives me energy. The music lyrics are equally important as it lets me know what my own teenagers are listening to.
Endorphins are a natural hormone in your body that are released when you do certain activities. Listening to Music and Running activities both release endorphins. Endorphins naturally combat stress I am a big believer in this and its effects. I believe all my gear is just an excuse for me to have different ways of listening to my music in different presentations to produce more endorphins. :^) With running I have four different pairs of running shoes that I rotate. This is important to help prevent injury.
As far as this group Lorde. I listen to and enjoy all forms of music. This is interesting music but I usually need 10-15 listens before I am tempted to go the next level (spend the cash) and get the vinyl. Have had three listens on cd so far.
So much music - so little time. On the best inside music days (like the current cold winter ones) I can listen to maybe 10-12 albums per day. Stay healthy and protect your ears so you can keep listening.
Hi Sam Being from LA around all the artists there, you are in an unique environment with access to software. I'm envious. Interesting info. thanks.
I wanted to share something from last week that I found interesting. A previous work friend has a young son that is attending a course at Metalworks Studios
and trying to set up his first small studio in his basement.
As I am the only one he knows of into music he asked me if I knew anything about some microphones (condensor vs dynamic) his son wanted (thinking Christmas gift). I quickly passed his request to Roger :^)
imo - The key to a successful consulting career is timely access to SME's (Subject Matter Experts)
I found Roger's response very interesting. Music lovers/audiophiles never seem to discuss this end of the music - imo the microphone is like that stylus in the groove. Where it all starts. I thought you guys would find this interesting (as I did) - so I wanted to share it here.
"Hi Chris: Basically condenser mics should be considered mainly as studio recording mics. I don't know the 214; the more common AKG that we see is the 414 and much more expensive. However if this mic is to be used with vocals you should use a windsock (we call them spit-pads) in front of the capsule otherwise moisture from the mouth will eventually rust out the capsule. And replacement capsules are not cheap. (I represent Neumann-Sennheiser -amongst other studio gear, and I also deal with all studio condensers for repairs).
For on stage on-the-road use dynamics. They are much cheaper, will stand far more abuse than condensers and if stolen or lost they are not too expensive to replace. Also the PA quality is no where close to a proper recording set up so the difference in response will not be noticed.
If recording drums please use dynamics rather than large condensers because they tend to get in the way and unless you have an experienced drummer, these mics often get hit. However if condensers must be used on a kit then a pencil type like KM84 or C451 series are ideal. For kit drum only large diaphragm dynamics because the volume of air will destroy a condenser. The diaphragm is tightly stretched and I have seen expensive mics like Sanken's with the diaphragm split open !"
These samples are from CDs made from a DSD recording of the actual analogue master tapes. They are not currently downloadable. I have been told if they are made downloadable one day, it would be from the actual DSD recording as it is closest to the analog master.
Note: I am not affiliated with this site other than being a customer of tapes. Hope u guys (gals) enjoy this music as I do. Just sharing.
Some recent emails with my Studer tech were fascinating to me. I wanted to share some of it with you guys here as it relates to imaging and what we hear when we listen to music.
******************************************
"Finally we debated over using butterfly heads (0.75mm gap) versus the more standard 2mm stereo heads. We opted for butterfly as there is more recorded area used. This does have the slight drawback of more crosstalk between channels (they are closer together) but for classical recording this works out extremely well. There is far more `blending' between channels producing a wider and fatter result. Of course butterfly used for say a rock recording would not be advisable as instruments panned hard left and hard right would tend to be dragged more towards the centre which would result in some clutter and lack of definition."
Roger Ginsely - Studer Canada Rep and Tech
************************************************
The above is part of an email response to me in which I questioned Roger on why I was hearing what I was hearing on a particular tape. He is responsible for the Studer machines in the studio where these tapes are made. These are current tapes that are produced today.
Here is a picture of the Studer Butterfly versus Stereo heads that he makes reference to.
I think the above puts things into a higher perspective that is not discussed much, and is only one example of how important the source material is and what the sound engineers do with it. Analog or digital. We are always hearing from audiophiles on forums about imaging, soundstage, depth, etc...
fwiw - I am aware of these imaging artifacts in reproduced music, but I don't place too much importance on them. I try to place the speakers where the tonal balance of the music is best on full range source material. I guess this makes me more of a music lover rather than an audiophile. Cheers
My understanding is the reviewers room was on the small side too. Was curious. So if anyone would like to chime in pls do. I'd like to learn. Have not experienced SET's Will reach out to McAlister - maker of the Otl's as well. fwiw - my Classe, RM9 and OTL's have no issues at all driving them.
But hey - if I can drive these with four tubes - u have my attention :^)
side note observation. The Acoustat Spectra 33 ESL's required in between 11-12 o'clock on my Audible Illusions preamp dials in the second room to reach high spl levels when they were auditioned by the person that bought them. This was with the Classe. Using the spl meter and same everything else the 801's are able to reach these same levels at between 8 and 9 o'clock on the preamp dials.
Thanks. it was very un-nerving bringing 6 cartons in like that with no control. Speakers are a lot of fun but also very educational for me. They are a picture into how music and audiophilia has evolved.
The mids and highs on the Quad 57's and DM70 just love a live room with no damping. The 57's were very common, affordable and placed in smaller rooms. The DM70's were very expensive (for their time) and usually bought by those with big houses and rooms. Put a DM70 in a small room and the bass will overtake everything. But they really do clean up nicely when raised a foot. Likewise put both the 57 and DM70 in my damped and controlled room and they both sound very muddy and the next thing you know -you will be adding external tweeters to both. imo - they are from an era when it was all about the music only. what is an audiophile ? what are room treatments ? The 801's come from a different era; were the mainstay in studios and used by professionals. Then B&W realized money could be made and released them onto consumers/audiophiles. They are relationship destroyers and require a controlled environment just like in a studio.
Of interest - the 801's are in my bigger - livelier room right now. Although their bass has a little more room to breathe now - their revealing tweeters can be un-pleasant at times. If they were to stay there work would be needed in that room. But this imo would go hurt the Quad 57/DM70 presentation. So what do you do ? multiple rooms !
No matter what gear, speakers, wire, you bring in - we (including ourselves) our slaves to our rooms.
I really am looking at the tip of the iceberg right now with these 800's. I plan on just listening to my music and dialing them in over the winter. Pick up one or two new tapes, some new vinyl ...and watch a few soap operas with my wife.
Dan - a question for you - with your recent SET experiences how do you think the 800's would do with some larger SET amps ? They are 93 db and do dip to 3 ohms. Not looking to buy but could always borrow some to try .........down the road.
seriously contemplated acquiring some 800's -- they would complement the Bevs and DALI :-)
The three musketeers ?
Sam - I made a tape of my daughter playing the piano and singing before she went to university on the Studer. I used to do many recordings of people singing when I was 12 or 13 with this big Hitachi am/fm cassette player that came with a wire microphone that you stored in a back compartment. Consider it my first stereo. I still have it (lol) - it was mono. This would have been around 1975 :^)
but a couple of questions I got from friends first. I thought they were important to discuss.
1) Did you consider any other brands; what were you looking for ?
2) Why vintage - are you not worried about condition of the drivers and parts, sonics ?
in a way what lead to this purchase is just as important to me because I am a hobbyist and I need to "BUY" first. I have made a lot of buying mistakes in the past. My criteria the last 7 years is very generic especially for remote purchases and it can be tailored. ------------------------------------------------------------
1) "Did you consider any other brands; what were you looking for ?
I considered other brands from the US, Canada, and Europe. Once I went through my list (below) the others started dropping off. fwiw - I have no interest at this point in time of assembling my own speakers as some friends have done. I feel there are already too many variables to deal with in this hobby on its own, the most important being the room. I will never have access to the tools and knowledge of the professional speaker makers that have been around a long time. My passion as a hobbyist is in placing their speakers in my rooms and enjoying them.
some of my speaker must haves were.
a)Needed to be true full range - 20hz -20khz. I play music that has material below 40hz. fwiw - I am surprised how many of todays new speakers listed under the full range category; when you look at their specs - are not able to reproduce the bottom octave well. So some fell off the list after this one.
b)When I run them I run them for long periods of time 8 -12 hours and can't tolerate breakdowns as this is my special time. So I need to have a speaker that has a good reputation and has been a proven consistent speaker over a long period of time.
c)Parts availability from the manufacturer for non-current archived products is a big plus.
d)Serviceability that can be done by a local speaker specialist - especially if manufacturer is no longer in business. (I am not shipping full range speakers for service)
e)Guarantee of cabinet, frame construction not peeling, falling apart or glue cracking after xx years. test of time proves this.
f)They need to have been designed so that they can work in a large room, a medium sized room and a long but narrow room. The other brands that made it this far - fell off my list because of having to meet all three of these requirements. The 800's were designed, and tested to work in a really large room and a long narrow room. The setup for both is clearly illustrated in the owners manual.
g)Good resale value (turnaround) if for some reason it didn't work out and I needed to sell them on the private market.
h) Last but not least - Its Paypal or no deal (or similar method for payment) one that establishes identify of the seller and buyer and protects both if issues arise. -----------------------------------------------------------------
2) "Why vintage are you not worried about condition of the drivers and parts, sonic quality"
See b, c, d, e, above also
My experience with the quality and durability of the 800 series matrix line of B&W played a big part. The drivers on my 801's matrix S3 still look like the day I brought them home. This includes the tension in the spiders and smooth travel up and down the voice coil. The 800's that I brought in were a remote purchase - after a few days of listening to ensure they survived the journey - I pulled the woofers on them.
In a couple of the pics you will see the 800 cabinet and the start of the Matrix Bracing hence the name. The driver parts looked real good to me but being a vintage speaker I brought the woofers to a specialist for inspection. He has repaired thousands of drivers including B&W. Some of his comments.
"These drivers are in really good shape. including spiders and voice coils. The rubber surrounds and robex cones look great"
"they just don't make them like this anymore. If ever you really wanted to rebuild/modify these - everything is easy to get at and accessible. Many woofers these days are disposable - you just replace the whole thing"
He also told me if I wanted to rebuild the bass drivers - due to the ease of access to all parts - and the fact all parts can be matched up with same compliant spiders and same voice coils the cost would be $150 each. That includes labor!
In contrast for example - my Quad 57's and the DM70's - are the total opposite of this. I listened to 4 different 57's before I bought my pair. The others were not 100% functional and original condition models. For this reason I would only buy these type of speakers as recently restored or rebuilt models; or an original pair real cheap to send for restore if I was interested in them. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
initial 800 impressions
I have a confession to make. My wife is the one that helped me to raise them into place. Well I did it and she kind of cradled them. There are moments like this when you know, if you are into this hobby that you are with the right person. I can't let her know this as after 25 years of marriage she would gain too much leverage on me. I hope she never sees this.
however
The look on her face once we raised them up and they were standing there - I wish I had taken a picture of her face. If I could paint a picture - utter disbelief - I could also read her mind - and it was saying - you have totally lost your mind; and I also sensed a look of a little fear on her face of the impending sounds to radiate throughout the house .......even though I repeatedly assured her again and again of their special design and intent. She wasn't having any of this talk at this point so....
I thanked her with an uncontrolled giddiness that only small children normally possess, and I promised to watch some chick flicks and soap operas with her. The weather is getting cold anyway.
Although the jury is still out on whether I have lost it; her fears of massive sounds coming from these speakers to shake the beloved foundation of our household proved unfounded. More on this in bit. I'd like to note that 6 females have seen these speakers now. They all have nodded approval of their design - with the grills on. This has never happened before with any other speaker.
From the front they are actually quite nice and really don't take up a lot of "in your face" visual space. The midrange cabinet is only 8 inches wide and the woofers one - near the ceiling the other close to the floor are not in your direct line of sight. So kudos to the designers on this - however and this is a big however.
When viewed from the side where their points are they look like friggin zombie monsters on steroids. There is no way of ignoring the massive and deep cabinets housing the woofers. Very similar to the 801's in this regard.
Sonic impressions -
Without sound - the 800's are big enough and displace enough air in the room to affect the general acoustics of my room ! The clap test confirms this.
The utter disbelief my wife had of them raising hell in our house, became a non-issue for her when she heard them. But it is ironic because it is at this point, that they took on utter disbelief to me. You see despite their size and all those drivers - they are very room friendly. I purposely placed them in my room of 19 years where the 801's had been, up to the day before. I in fact placed them on the tape lines the 801's had occupied. The sound that emanated from them was controlled and smooth from the first song. And it remained this way "everywhere" in the room. You could get up walk around, sit down, stand up and go to the very back of the room. Not a hint of boominess playing really bass heavy music.
I then proceeded to move them back into the room more. They are not mechanically grounded yet on their spikes. I have the heavy cast alloy bases resting on a sheet of cardboard with the shiny side down on the carpet. This allows one person to gradually move them around till I dial them in. I moved them back one whole foot - gaining precious space with similar sonic results. The 801's have seen every inch of space in this room - long wall - short wall. Even a few inches with their movement can cause sonic problems in this room.
So for now I have to say that B&W was correct in their design - testing and implementation of these 800's. I look forward to dialing them in more.
Hi Richard - ok some matrix 800 impressions coming with a few interesting pics ?
Richard if I may say - imo you are a true and authentic vinyl only connoisseur. You don't even own a cd player ! Of all the audio friends that I know in person and virtually, you are the only one that falls into this category. If you ever decide to post a virtual system on audiogon - call it "Mr. Analog" It is for this reason and a couple of others - that I had that "digital" music sent to you. I am really looking forward to your impressions.... After you have managed to borrow a cd player :^)
Banquo363 ... took 5 guys 9 hours to assemble the 800's!
Hi Banquo - does that not sound sort of like a punchline to another joke ? the one about a lightbulb comes to mind.
from the review
800 Setup from Stereophile Review. If you're the type of person who loves to tinker with your car every weekend, and don't mind having to remove half of the engine in order to change the plugs, you'll love deciphering the 800 owner's manual and assembling these monsters. But if you're like me, this could be a big pain. The 800 comes in six large crates, with no indication of which to unpack first or where anything is supposed to go. The manual is confusing, and often incorrect, which may make you question your ability to read English ("this screw just doesn't fit into that hole!"). Luckily, in my case, Victor Goldstein (consultant to B&W), Chris Browder (Executive Vice President of B&W Loudspeakers of America), as well as two members of our musicians' listening group (Al Merz, Ed Kelly) came to the rescue. Victor had set up several pairs of 800s before these, and knew pretty much what to do, while the rest of us looked on in utter disbelief. I recommend that at least two people be available when you assemble your 800s (lifting the midrange/tweeter and upper woofer modules into place requires a combination of brute strength and finesse); better yet, let your dealer do all the work. It took five of us the better part of a day (nine hours) to unpack, assemble, and position my review pair.
Sounds like a classic case of too many chefs in the kitchen. One guy did all the work and four of them watched and bumped into one another. What is an EVP of the company going to know about bolting his own speakers together ? And as far as what the B&W consultant did - like any typical consultant he took his own way - meaning he didn't do what it says to do in the manual. For those reading that are consultants please don't feel slighted with these remarks. I have been a consultant and managed other consultants for over 25 years.
(lifting the midrange/tweeter and upper woofer modules into place requires a combination of brute strength and finesse);
From my own experience. This is asking for a lot of trouble.
My build for the first 800 took about 4 hours (an afternoon). With familiarity and some lessons learned, about two 1/2 -three hours to do the second - I didn't time it. I got help from one person to lift off the wood crate covers - a similar exercise to lifting the cartons that new appliances come with - i.e. dishwasher. You are basically left with the speaker parts bolted into the bottom crate piece like this.
The bolts used to hold them stable in the crates are the same bolts used to put them together. Simple and brilliant.
I would say one additional person needs to be there to lend a helping hand when needed. Otherwise one person does the build on the "floor".
Stereophile - The 800 comes in six large crates, with no indication of which to unpack first or where anything is supposed to go. The manual is confusing, and often incorrect, which may make you question your ability to read English
The manual is correct. My boxes are labelled A-1-2-3, B-1,2,3 The 800 build is illustrated very clearly in the owners manual too.....with pictures! You build each of them laid down on a protective floor drivers pointing sideways.
again not doing this....
(lifting the midrange/tweeter and upper woofer modules into place requires a combination of brute strength and finesse)
In pictures the 800's bases always seemed like they were made of wood to me. They are actually very heavy cast alloy filled with Fibercrete - the same stuff the midrange head is made of on the 801 and 802 matrix. - they provide big time weight leverage on the bottom allowing two normal sized people to lift the whole 800 fairly easy into place - after it is assembled - on the floor.
Ah....the life of professional reviewers. ok - I will admit when I read the review; being just the lowly hobbyist that I am - I became jealous that the reviewer got a ticket to fly to England to see the factory.
sidenote imo - a calm frame of mind is always required before assembling anything. There are some people that enjoy bolting things together. Believe it or not this type of activity has a calming effect on me as I have spent most of my life working at a job where I was in front of a laptop and or groups of people. this is a nice change of pace, being on your own - all mechanical. I have realized I am not bad at figuring out how to put stuff together as long as when its bolted together I'm done. FINITO. My big problem are the finishing touches. The little things like moldings and trim in a room as an example. My wife seems to think these things are really important. My music room - I don't have her pushing me to finish it. This is also the main reason my rooms will NEVER EVER look like some of the really nice rooms at Audiogon. I get it working for me - then I just get too busy listening. Maybe this will change later on but I doubt it as I have other hobbies that take up my time as well.
They're very funky looking.
the urban dictionary for funky = "different but cool/nice" So thanks Banquo. I agree with you. I think I have a track record of being attracted to "funky" things?
The more involved I get with the 800's the more fascinating they are to me. They were a 2 1/2 year development project for Bowers and Wilkins.
Dr. Dibbs actually discusses them in the recent September 2013 Stereophile interview.
I'm excited to experience Dr. Dibbs implementation of the 800's double woofers (one high, one low) in my room. I have heard a system that had separate 4 external subs implemented before. But they were all on the floor - all over the place. We all know that bass drivers excite the room with really long waves; requiring the 801 matrix speaker as an example imo to be placed on one of the room nodes if the room is medium sized; a bigger room is able to dissipate these long waves better but it is still better if the 801's can be on one of the nodes in any room as I have found you will need "much less " room treatment allowing the room to remain "alive" and not too damped. So as far as the 801's go this usually means a dedicated music room or no WAF. Just not consumer friendly enough as most rooms are shared; the main reason IMO these British 801's are not made anymore. PITY
Another thing that is not obvious from pics of 800's on the internet. The 800 upper bass cabinet is heavier than the lower one. This is by design because the upper woofer doesn't have the floor to help damp and deal with the bass waves, like the lower woofer does in the bottom cabinet. When you start assembling you assume the heavier cabinet goes on the bottom - wrong. Well they only bolt together one way so no worries.
Do the 800's double woofers - one extremely high - one low - really "cancel or smooth out" each of their bass waves in the room, leaving purer bass notes and less resonance; therefore resulting in clearer and musical - music ? I'm gonna find out. I also have a 19 year reference point to compare it to.
I solved the concerns with my wife. I made her part of the sale process for the other speakers. her role is to take cash or cheque from the sale to the bank and keep 10 per cent for herself. Its important as well to make sure she sees speakers going - out - the door. or least close to the front door on their way out. I told her 3 or maybe 4 speakers will end up leaving to pay for the 800's. She was still not expecting those cartons - oh well :^(
the 6 crates containing the parts and cabling to build up Matrix 800. 19 years with the 801s3. 801's will be parked for a bit before any decisions get made. I can post pics and impressions as I go through the 800 setup. The spectra's in the pic (covered in plastic)are awaiting pickup by the new owner. He says he needs to make some room for them first :^)
My speaker boxes arrived in Canada last Tues 15th - day after Cdn. Thanksgiving. I am kept in the dark until Friday when I am told the shipment has been referred for examination by Canadian Customs next week. What a way to wreck a weekend....
Thanks for that info Richard. Here's some info I dug up from a photocopy of the Spectra owners Manual.
"A breakthrough in understanding the rules of the electrostats drive transformer (interface) suggested a "variable area" solution - while still satisfying Acoustats demand for efficiency and low-end response. The result the mk2100 series interface allows us to implement a variable geometry electrostat changing its effective width as a function of frequency. Called Symmetric Pair Electrically Curved Tranducer (Spectra) Each speaker of the mirror pair contains a narrow line source sector operating at all frequencies (bass,mid,high) Adjacent sectors handle mid and low frequencies. Remaining panel area reproduces bass only. ".....uses full area for maximum bass impact, and progressively narrower areas as frequency increases"
yes very different from the model 3.
Warranty
We are proud to offer this unique warranty due to the virtual indestructible nature of Acoustat panels. Acoustat guarantees our electrostatic panels against defective materials and workmanship for the life of the product.
It goes on to say the interface is warrantied for 10 years.
This warranty to my understanding is the reason when Acoustat became European the new Italian owners could no longer offer them in North America. They couldn't provide this warranty.
Hi Dan - other than those sub zero days that occur a couple times every winter - the worst weather here is probably when it rains and is near the freezing mark 0 c or 32 f. Typical of Jan/Feb temps here in Southern Ontario give or take a few degrees either way. Black ice sets in. Toronto area drivers have never learned how to drive in that stuff and are too impatient to wait for the salt trucks to do their thing. The result - real bumper cars using your own vehicle with those parked on the side of the road.
I don't like anything near or in my ears either. Even with my cell phone if its going to be a longer call I will find a quiet spot and use the speaker phone. Have always had headphones but the first year our fraternal twins were born I was forced to use them alot. Even though the sound itself was good - I have never sat in the "middle" of performers doing a performance so couldn't get used to it. All live performers I have heard whether in a small club or larger venue - even studio albums (Roger Waters Amused to Death an exception) have always been in front of me usually elevated on some of type of stage so they can be seen and the sound projects better; or I am sitting in a type of bowl. Thats the stock Quad 57 presentation. Like you are on the first floor balcony of a performance. Raising the back leg of a '57 with a piece of wood "raises" the presentation. Its a little freaky when you first do it because you are pointing the speakers down more and the sound is going up! Regardless the performers are always in front of me. I shoot for a presentation where they are elevated just a little. For me the experience of listening with good ESL's in nearfield is sort of like the quality headphone experience but being in the first 5-10 rows and nothing touching my ears.
Hi Dan. great to hear from you! thank u. I wish you were not so far out on the west coast. Wait a minute.... in another month when winter starts settling in here I will probably wish I was out there.
Thanksgiving dinner was nice , even though our son is away playing Junior Hockey and living with a billet family. I got to do two runs with my daughter home from university - this was really special.
prior to the first run.
"hey dad check these out" (her new ear phones she runs with) "they do bass"
they had these little plastic tunnels attached to them and go deeper into the ear drum. :^(
I give up..... I am going to try to take some for myself while I can.
Whats coming in is part of it. Its stuck in customs !
So much for free trade Dan between Canada and the US !
RichardKrebs - I wonder if the "Hi Fi" effect you describe is an artefact of the delay network used in the Spectra's. A lot of extra components are used to create this.
Hi Richard - a busy few days days here with Canadian Thanksgiving. Thats a very interesting comment. Are those extra components in the interface itself or part of the panel design - or both? Its a big advantage being able to compare in your own room. I'm willing to bet I could have improved things (closed the gap) with placement and the room is no where near complete. But as this is a culling exercise to raise cash, my objective was to go as far as I needed to go, to come to a comfortable decision for myself.
One of the friends I mentioned earlier interested in the Spectra came for a listen. Long story short - he had them cranked playing at levels I wouldn't dare with my wife in the house. Classic rock, Classical, and Jazz. He was happy and the Spectras are now sold leaving me - in the words of Phil on Duck Dynasty "happy, happy, happy", as I have now raised 1/2 of the cash I need. Cheers
Acoustat Impressions - Modded Model 3 versus Spectra 33 A little background on both.
Modded Model 3 - (the smaller older guy with mods)
The model 3's have 3 same ESL panels - hence their name. Mine were already modified with someone else's passion when I acquired them. The interface internals are modified. Cardas binding posts and an IEC outlet on the outside the only clue. Frame and base mods include real burl oak veneer on the panel portion below the actual ESL panel, 80 lb granite bases with integrated spikes, as well as extensive use of small sand bags inside the panel frame area. I discovered the sand bags by accident. I took the panel apart from the base one day to move to another floor and one of the bags fell out ! Quite ingenious these little sand bags. In addition to this they came with heavy wood crates enclosing their original factory boxes. Somebody went to a lot of trouble here, and it wasn't the guy I bought them from. I have a feeling about this because he sold them to me "fairly cheap". Funny how this works. Maybe a lesson here ? I think so... Make sure your wife/spouse knows the "real" market value of your gear in case you have an accident and disappear. An audiophile nightmare waiting to happen? Model 3 interfaces also come with a HF Tuning dial knob to adjust both or one of the speakers for room acoustics.
Tidbit I have never owned an Apple product but here is what I think is cool picture of Steve Jobs (RIP) of Apple with his Model 3's.
Spectra 33 - (the younger, larger kid on the block)
The Spectra 33 are the most current Acoustat version before the company was sold overseas to the the Italian firm. They represent different, newer technology. Mine have non-stock heavier bases. Spectras have an indicator hole at the top of the each speaker at one end. This side of the speaker represents the HF end and needs to go on the inside when doing setup. This is required for tighter imaging. Guess what putting the indicator hole on the outside does to the size of the performers singing ? I wonder if any reviewers had the indicator hole on the outside ? The hole is in between the top screws holding the panels together and can be easily missed. The Spectra 33 interface has a bypass toggle on back of the interface to hook up an Acoustat sub if desired - to handle 100 hz and down. You flick the toggle one way or the other to engage and disengage it. From the fellow that rebuilds them "this is a cheap switch and should be avoided as it will degrade the sound" If the sub is not used they are in full range mode which should be good to 30 hz from what the manual says. I have always used them full range without sub.
Impressions...
The Spectra's can fill a larger room a little easier as they have more panel area. They go a little lower than the Model 3's confirming their 30 hz claim to me. The model 3's are not far behind in the bass. The larger Spectra panel area also means a little more efficiency for your amp as efficiency goes up the bigger and more panels with Acoustat. When you stand up the sound is still all there with the Spectra 33 due to the panel height. With the Model 3's you really do need to stay sitting. When you stand up its like you just put some plugs in your ears with the model 3's. But I tend to listen sitting down anyway not walking around. The Spectra 33's would work better if having a group of people over in a larger room. I find the Spectra 33 a little more "Hi Fi" sounding than the model 3's. By "Hi Fi" I mean they bring more attention to themselves, and their capabilities versus the Model 3's. The Model 3's make me just forget that they are there and I get involved more with the music itself. This is good because they are not good looking speakers. Overall I find the Spectra 33 a little less coherent than the Model 3's. For my personal needs and the way I listen to the Acoustats - the Model 3 make more sense for me. So will be selling the Spectra 33...a couple friends that showed previous interest emailed. Cheers
Richardkrebs 1.... Very high impedence at LF resonance. I have measured mine and don't remember the exact number but it was around 100 ohms. This can be problematic for some amps.
Dover One thing you have to bear in mind is that tube amps that use output transformers are going to have phase shifts that vary with frequency. All transformers have phase shifts in the audio band. Therefore when you find a tube amp to run with a speaker, particularly harder to drive or those with varying impedances such as electrostatics, the results are difficult to predict.
Rk your actual measurements of 100 ohms confirm what the the maker of my OTL's has said about the very high ohm requirement for proper bass with Acoustats. His measurements mirrored yours. This difficult power requirement is one of the reasons he included an Acoustat when designing them. He has also owned the Italian Hybrid Acoustats - the company that took over Acoustat before it ended up in China and now defunct I believe. I can also say now after 7-8 months that the OTL's just play around with the easier load 801's. Like a big engine car just cruising. The sound is immediate and direct sounding.
The speakers coming in if all goes as plan will replace my 801's that I have owned for 19 years. As they are a remote purchase with shipping I am very reluctant and a little nervous about talking about them until they are safely through my door and set up. I don't want to ginch anything. They happen to be 93 db.
Dover - Ct0517 your Classe Audio is not state of the art by any stretch.
Dover - You can't go making statements like this without qualifiers, and here is an example of why based on your other post.
Dover - After I posted I recalled a discussion with one of the ET dealers in Canada many years ago. The early ET speakers required amplifiers that have good voltage swing, 100w into 16 ohms. High current amplifiers do not swing voltage. So Krells could not drive the ET's whereas the Perreaux's, being more of a voltage amplifier with less current, were very good. Conversely with the early Apogees the reverse was true. A very graphic example of the dangers of using the same amplifier to compare speakers with different electrical requirements.
I had fantastic results with the ET speakers and the Classe CA300. In conversation with Bruce Thigpen - he told me about 5 years ago that he had a CA300 and had excellent results with it on his LFT8a Planar Speakers as well. So one could say that the CA300 matched with LFT8a speakers is a very good thing for this speaker/amp combo. fwiw - I consider my classe CA300 a nice amp. Its a backup amp these days and I highly recommend it as an amp to try out if anyone comes across one.
been travelling with the wife trying to score brownie points as we head into the serious listening seasons here (fall/winter) We have been staring at the stunning leaf colors of central ontario as we travel. I even told her I would paint her nails the same colors if she likes - to score some points. :^) After 35 years in this hobby I am presently at a loss trying to think up ideas of how to sneak those speaker boxes down to the basement without her noticing.... any ideas appreciated ?
thanks for the posts RK/Dover will review later tonight/morn as I catch up and respond.
Acoustat shootout coming up - Modded Model 3's vs Spectra 33. Cheers
I thought you were rationalising your speakers hence the suggestion to try a high quality samll monitor such the the Proac Tablette. I think you would find this illuminating in gaining an insight into your other speakers.
Dover - a very old picture and direct from my virtual page.
I have used the excuse of saving them for my kids to fool - myself. In seriousness if I did not need the cash for what is about to come through the door I would have kept them. This exercise is indeed about rationalizing but also about taking something for myself "now" while I can. Being a little selfish, greedy.
Its no secret for anyone looking at my virtual page that my Wayne Picquet Quad 57's with the RM10 is my personal midrange reference combo. The RM10 amp has made adding "tweeters" unnecessary and it is impossible to damage them with this amp as it was designed for them. I am able to get 85-90db listening average levels with 100 db peaks with no problem in that large room; the volume knobs of the AI preamp range from 9 - 11 am with digital and 11 - 1pm for vinyl using the (420str/ET2 HPM combo).
To understand what I mean by my "midrange reference" consider this.
-3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3,
Simply speaking the 57's midrange represents 0 to me. All other speakers are judged by this. Some do more highs, some do more lows. If you notice - I am very clear to NOT say "better" highs , "better" lows. As this is where it gets to a personal level with one's own opinions, one's own room and gear and most important one's own hearing which this hobby is all about for me.
I have heard a number of Acoustats, they were quite popular here in the 80's. I agree with your comments on power and space in the room. I've heard 1+1's, 2+2's & 2's and 3's and Spectras on a variety of amps including - Perreaux 2150B's, monoed 2150B's, 3150B's, 5150B's, Plinus 250w mono's, Sumo Class A, EAR 509's, EAR 519's, Audio Research D115, Quicksilver 8417's, Counterpoint SA12 & 20, Rowland Model 1's monoed.
For the benefit of those reading which of these amps in your opinion work better with an Acoustat's power requirements assuming the panel material is tight, and they have been spaced properly? I believe this information would be useful to others. Otherwise you might as well be saying Amp A, Amp B, Amp C, ..... if you know what I mean.
here is a picture of the speakers coming to me. http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1380931512.jpg as mentioned I will be selling 3 maybe 4 speakers to pay for these. depending on the market. the pic shows 4 of 6 boxes that they are shipped in.
Part of this journey The three speakers will include a new for me very special speaker hopefully coming in soon. Hope to have shootouts completed and money in pocket by Jan-Feb - God willing.
In my previous email I mentioned the ET LFT8's were sold.
Here is another update.
Pulled the pair of B&W 805 matrix and 805 HTM center channel out of storage.
I am no longer holding my breath that my kids will use them one day. That day will never come.
Put for sale a couple days ago and they sold this afternoon.
For those following I very happy to say that the transaction for the "new for me speaker has occurred". As they are are remote they need to be sent to me.
I am happy to say I am half-way there in raising funds for them.
10-02-13: Dover Having heard many Acoustats over the years, including the 3's, 2+2's, both with the medallion updates and OFC panels, the Spectra's and some heavily modified ones, I would suggest you have a listen to some Proac Ref 8 Signatures. These monitors are more transparent, quicker and more faithful to the music than any of the Acoustats I have auditioned over the last 3 decades. With my original Proac Tablettes and the Sota Star (vacuum) with ET2 and Denon 103 I could clearly hear more information through the whole musical spectrum. Although down in absolute level the bass was more articulate, informative and most importantly more accurate in timing. The Tablettes do not have the one note bass the Acoustats produce. The Acoustats tend to make everything sound the same - they are highly coloured - even with subtstantial mods, they still remain coloured.
Hmmmm....what can a person say when someone puts in a post like that on your own personal Audiogon system thread ? Well...lets see....my thread here is about learning and sharing info that helps us in this hobby; so my response is for those that may consider Acoustat in the future or are current owners. If it also ends up helping Dover to sleep better at night all the better since his Acoustat problems still seem to haunt him enough to post here on my personal page.
Firstly Acoustat was and still is a coveted brand of speaker in Canada and US with music lovers; This is evidenced by the number of online forums that exist, and actual service centers by techies like Roy Esposito; who knows more about them than anyone else; plus other techies who continue to do upgrades and maintenance on them for music lovers. imo - Acoustats require different thinking in setup over dynamic cone speakers and other ESL's (i.e. Quad ESL) to make them sound as good as they really can sound. Based on my listening when things are not set up properly they can indeed produce some of the symptoms you describe Dover; but in my experience all can be easily remedied and are part of the learning process for setup of an Acoustat. They are NOT a plug and play speaker.
What follows is meant for those out there who have ever thought of or are thinking of owning an Acoustat one day. Let me address three areas to look for. If other knowledgeable Acoustat owners reading want to chime in with their experiences - please feel free. I am looking to learn also. I ask you to just keep in mind one important thing.
I had this boss when I was younger that I ending up respecting very much and learning much from. He taught me that it is very unproductive and a waste of everyone's time to bring problems to the table; without bringing some kind of solution/s to the table to fix the problems.
Acoustats - 3 guidelines based on my experience.
1) Are they set up in the room to breath. 2) Is the panel being driven properly 3) Is the panel plastic sheet material loose?
1) The panel area requires space around them for both the front and back wave to do their work as they are dipole. Most pics of Acoustats I see show them up against against the wall or in a corner. If people are happy with this sound - cool. But if not they should be positioned "at least" a few feet away from front walls. Yes, my Acoustat manual shows that they can be placed this way - against the wall - in the corner - imo - this is to sell more speakers.
2) Is the Panel being driven properly. Unlike other ESL's, it is difficult to over drive Acoustats, but it is very easy to not drive them properly. Here is something that folks (myself included till about five years ago) do not realize about Acoustat. I did not realize it until it was explained to me by a very knowledgeable person. This person has been rebuilding and repairing all ESL's for many many years as well as building amps, preamps designed around ESL requirements. It has actually been mentioned here on my thread already. For those that have read my system thread so far - sorry for the repeat - but its worth repeating.
"Acoustat panels need to energize at 40 - 80 ohms to produce good bass" "So you need an amp SS or Tube that is capable at 40 - 80 ohms"
The difficulty with this statement - imo- as a music lover is that you cannot "see" whether your amp is doing 40-80 ohms without some kind of measurements. So you need to use your ears.
We always see amp power ratings at a nominal 8 ohms - and people assume if they double down its all good. (i.e. a 150 wpc amp at 8 hms, goes to 300 at 4 ohms). But what we never hear or read about is how this or that particular amp does at 40 - 80 ohms - GOING THE OTHER WAY. If someone owns Acoustat or are comtemplating them or a speaker with similar power reqt's I'd look into your amps specs or contact the manufacturer of the amp for info. What your amp is able to do power wise at 40 - 80 ohms with Acoustat is important.
3) if 1 or 2 don't fix your problems, it could be Loose Panel Material - Its bad practice for any ESL owner to just unplug them when done listening and just replug them in when using them. Acoustats sound better when left on for a day or more especially those that are not used frequently. If you don't like the idea of leaving them on - don't buy them. I feel this strongly about this point. You see each time this is done - uplugging and plugging them in - the electricity charging and dis-charging from the panel material causes the plastic material in the sheet to stretch and contract. Over time the material doesnt contract back as well. This causes loose material and is the biggest cause imo for the loose bass sometime referenced in reviews and or the one note bass that Dover seems to have an issue with. When bass is off everything is affected. Thankfully with Acoustat it is a very easy fix.
With panel OFF - and discharged - leave off for a day to be sure. Take a small hair dryer and on the lowest heat (just warm air) run the dryer up and down the panel membranes slowly never stopping. I have used this procedure twice and it works. The warm heat shrinks the membrane so it contracts back down. Your bass should be improved - defined and tight once more.
NOTE - Although this is an easy procedure I take no responsibility for anyone doing damage to their membrane with a hair dryer.
My Acoustats are not my reference speaker but I find when set up properly they are very listenable for hours upon hours and represent ridiculous values on the used market. The ridiculous value however is also how people get into trouble with them. You see someone without knowledge or even a desire to learn, gets them for a crazy price on Ebay or Kijiji.
Now it a crazy price to begin with and I dont see this changing - BECAUSE IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO CONVINCE A SPOUSE TO BUY AND BRING HOME A SPEAKER THAT LOOKS LIKE A DOOR.
Anyway - they get them home and stick them up against wall, on either side of their big screen TV and hook them up to their HT receiver bought at Walmart or BestBuy.
Dover - fyi in the picture I referenced above - thats me aiming the Spectra 33 speaker at my son with my daughter taking the picture. What fun we had back then when they were 16. Now 19 they want no part of the hobby. My son carries around a portable wireless speaker (one speaker) that gets synced with his smartphone carrying his songs - that one speaker actually does one note bass that sounds like - bop, bop-bop, bop-bop-bop, bop....
This fact probably weighs in somewhat with my recent decision to get down to three speakers.
Dover what are your room dimensions - your reference Proac Tablettes make me assume your room is on the small side? Also I am curious to know what you have found to be the average audio room size in New Zealand based on your experience ?
Part of this journey Audio decision made to raise cash by doing shootouts and selling off speakers. The objective is to get down to three speakers; one for each of my basement music rooms and one for our shared living room upstairs. The three speakers will include a new for me very special speaker coming in soon. Hope to have shootouts completed and money in pocket by Jan-Feb - God willing.
Shootout result one.
Modded Acoustat Model 3 versus Eminent Technology LFT8a Model 3's make music sound more like in a studio (quiet) - a little ghostly - an ESL trait. The ET LFT8a's give off more of a hall/church ambience in comparison. Both very nice just a little different. Too close to call for me. The ET speakers are current production and can be replaced; the Model 3's can't be replaced so... I sold the ET speakers. I can't say enough about the US made ET speaker by Bruce Thigpen. Not very efficient 84 db and requires a decent amp; but when setup on one of the room's bass nodes the woofers are fast and in sync with the panels. Both speakers were compared with a Classe CA300 and a Music Reference RM9 at the 4ohm tap.
Next up
Same Modded Acoustat Model 3 (older) versus Acoustat Spectra 33 (newer).
Hi Jim - been away chasing small mouth bass and the elusive lake trout. Great that the ET2 is making music for you again.
Some thoughts to your questions.
Do you know if it is easy to reverse the drive pulley so the 45rpm is on top and the 33.3 is on the bottom? That would help me a lot.
Its been a long time since I owned the hw19mkIV. I remember how the 33/45 pulley could pop out but dont think you can reverse it. Best to send Mike at VPI an email. Good guy. He is also the one that got me to try the spider wire fishing line (his favorite) when I was experimenting with thread on my TNT. As a fisherman I went into a bass pro shop at the time looking for it only to find 15 brands of spider wire. That hobby is like this one.
better performance on the VPI can be gotten by replacing the spring suspension with Sorbothane pucks. Perhaps that could also give me better centering on the belt as well as improved resolution.
imo the vpi spring suspension works well with structure feedback but can go out of level too quickly as it jiggles and therefore didn't work great with the ET2 that needs to be level. Defeating the suspension with pucks worked better, but then I needed to treat for structure feedback better under the table. Having the springs or decouplers under the shelf that the turntable rests on helped. Its best from my experience to have the TT shelf resting level in a home built sandbox (very easy to make) or on the wall (load bearing only).
Anyway, I saw folks using a Medco pump in the thread, and saw I can still get one at a good price from the source you guys gave. I like the fact that it is quiet, but the pressure is too high for a stock ET2 manifold. Do you know how much psi the stock manifold can handle without oscillating or worsening the audio performance?
This is one of those audio topics that can get controversial as imo there is not one answer and it is system/room dependent. Let me answer it the best way I can. Bruce made the ET2 very hardy.
Without playing a record two things can happen when you pump more than 3.5 psi through the arm. With your ear a foot away from the ET2 you may hear leaking from the seals that can't be heard with 3.5 psi. This is good because it lets you correct the connections. Secondly with alot more pressure the hose may blow off depending on how tight it is attached. Just re-attach.
When playing a record. As you know from the ET2 thread, this tonearm is unique and different from other air bearing linear trackers as its air support system is fixed; the ET2 does not rely on damping with the air hose, moving with the armtube for normal operation to track the groove. It has been designed and tested by Bruce to split the horizontal and vertical resonant frequencies. imo as a user (10 years +) and listening - when you pump more air through you change resonances at play as the spindle is levitated from the air pressure. Approaching too much pressure the spindle will eventually start to vibrate. Its connected to the I Beam, armtube, and cartridge. The stylus is affected and the way it vibrates in the groove is affected. This change in stylus action gets amplified along the electro mechanical chain and you hear the differences. That's my layman answer. With that said.
The 3.5 psi for the stock ET2 imo is a minimum conservative number from Bruce as a manufacturer for the arm to work well and within parameters. I think if your ET2 is in good shape upwards of between 4 -7 psi on a stock ET2 should not pose problems from my experience. The small Medo pump because of the type of pump it is - produces 12 psi measured at the pump itself - but when I measured the psi at the arm with that reguator/psi pressure gauge it had dropped to 7-8 psi if I remember. There is PSI loss with the Medo. So since the PSI is around 7 I would go try it. Interested in your findings.
The first ET2 I bought was used and had partially clogged capillaries and the old pump was down 1/2 (.5) psi. It would not get through the last track without at least 4 psi. But the way it played the other tracks (I didn't know at the time) was sub par based on its condition. How many of the original over 2000 ET2, ET2.5 owners are using them in sub par condition ?
So to answer your question based on my experience. If too much air is put through and starts affecting the spindle the actual spindle will start resonating. The detail in the music will start blurring. Its kind of like when your stylus gets a little dirt on it if you are lazy to clean it. I take notice of it from familiar recordings - something is amiss or off and you clean the stylus. Likewise sonically the music sounds thinner, leaner with less information. imo - this is how you will know what pressure psi your system can handle based on your own system / room.
Jim - if no luck finding the parts for the regulator / filter I can pick up the parts put it together and mail it to you if you like. I can be reached at [email protected].
Im still having a very hard time trying to get the ET2 phono wires to stop interfering with the arm movement.
I discovered that once you use bypass the stock wire (very easy to do) and go direct into the preamp you are able to manoeuvre the wires better, Getting the wires outside the armtube (although not as aesthetic) allows you to actually disconnect the wires and level the arm without them. Connect the wires after and you really see how much the wires can affect the ET2. My preamp is to the right of the ET 2.5. I use a happy face loop U between the arm and the preamp with the unshielded wire. Any parts that will touch something before the actual connection to the preamp are propped up and touch Blue Tack. With the volume up, unmuted and no record playing I move the wires around behind the preamp to determine if they are positioned good against interference.
Hi Icewater_7 - thanks for your post. see below for answers.
I have been trying to find your air regulator searching on line but can't find it. I see that Amazon has something that looks like it for an airbrush setup, but that one does not have fittings for 1/4" plastic tubing in and out.
My unit has been assembled from parts purchased at this hydraulic supplier.
There is probably a hydraulics retail outlet near where you live or the parts can be purchased online. These suppliers provide parts directly to the hydraulics industry.
came to about $70.00 from what I remember and included.
The regulator casing body (includes the black knob on top for adjustment of psi and locking it in. Clear bowl on bottom with dust /particle/moisture filter. It also has a relief valve on the bottom if water does collect more on this later. Includes the bracket for mounting. (screws into the regulator body) Pressure gauge screws into regulator body. Different gauge ranges are available . Two brass outlets for connecting ¼ inch tube in and out tubes. Thats it. Takes one minute to assemble the parts.
I dont think you will find this as a finished product only because there are different choices and combinations that can be made. If you go into the actual store watch the look on the sales persons face when you tell him/her what you are going to use it for :^)
I want to buy a new replacement pump (mini one linked to in the big ET2 thread) and regulate it down to 3.5 psi for my stock ET2. Is there enough gauge resolution on the one you have to accurately set the psi that low?
On my gauge the numbers in black are 5 - 10 15.... up to 30. So you would be reading just below the first black number which is 5. You can substitute a 15 psi max pressure gauge easily. This would make 3.5 more easily read in the first 1/3 of the gauge.
Do I need a "surge tank" too? What would I use to replace my old particle filter or does this regulator filter out dust as well as moisture?
This regulator can be used wide open so it just monitors air pressure and filters out dust, moisture and particles. Or you can turn the knob to lower the psi, push it down to lock it and then acts as an regulator. Although it may somehow dynamically provide some type of surge functionality as the air enters and exits I would still use a surge tank just after your pump.
A small story. My Timeter pump has a surge tank as part of its design and dumps condensation like a car. For anyone if you look under your car you will see a tube that water drips out of onto the road. Because it is a pump with pressure in this application, there is a nozzle that is spring loaded on the end of this tube. You can see this tube in my pump picture. This allows the water to drip out in the pan at the bottom and for system to maintain pressure it is set for. There is a regulator on the pump side too.
Anyway a couple years ago this nozzle got clogged up (minerals in the water) the system still worked but it backed up the condensation system and sent the moisture down the line to the second regulator/filter in my room. It started to fill up. I did not notice till it was over half full !
Without that in room regulator all that moisture would have gone into the ET2s capillaries. Easy enough to clean out (think how you clean your barbecue of spiders ) but still a bit of a pain as it has to be taken apart. Other than that one alarming episode I have seen not one drop in the regulators glass bottle in my room the pump is that good. Since that incident however, for maintenance I now once a month - open the back of the pump and insert the nozzle in an empty water bottle that has been half filled with CLR and leave it overnight. No more problems.
Btw- the little Medo pump in the thread is a real dymano but should be used with a small fan placed beside it for cooling. They are used in hospitals but not in continuous operation. Reason the fan is needed. Im interested to hear how you make out. Please let me know and join us on the ET2 thread and say Hi. Cheers Chris
Hi Richard thanks for your post. You made me think about the room again. I havent looked at it for a few months. So I had to think about my thoughts before responding.
It is a luxury having a dedicated space.
In Ontario, Canada, homes generally have full basements many with 8 feet plus ceilings that go at least 3-4 feet in the ground depending on where in Ontario to get below the frost line to deal with winter conditions. They are usually not finished spaces so are open for grabs to crazy audiophiles/music lovers to use as man(women) caves. For this reason alone Ontarians and I am sure other province and northern USA music lovers are prime audiophile candidates. My space just one year ago was all concrete floor, concrete block walls with wood studs/insulation and used for storage. My wifes storage. I made a sacrifice and moved some of her stuff out to the garage. So I lost guy space in the garage. Guys dont like to lose garage space? Kind of reminds me a little of the movie War of the Roses but with less drama here. I can relate to the line from Michael Douglas that was something like I have more square footage over her. My wife regards the basement as sub-quality space. Little does she know.
So I agree with you that dedicated space is a very big luxury. If I had one shared room to use and had a spouse to please; I would definitely be using a speaker design that could fairly easily be slid into prime position during listening then slid back for aesthetics to satisfy the spouse. Personally would not settle for the up against the wall shared speaker room unless their design meant they needed to be positioned this way.
Are you planning any special details in it like say a dedicated power feed or room treatment?
Yes but let me say for me, its always been about listening to a naked room first. Meaning - as it is normally used whether an empty space or a shared space/room, to hear what she can handle; then treating the space as I go along. I like to see how far I can get without major treatment first. This is because room treatments imo are usually for the type of speaker been planned for or already in the room..... no?. What happens when the speakers change?
A key step, actually critical step to me for any room is identifying the bass nodes and nulls. This is very important for any room where the speakers have the capability to fill the room with bass. I have my own technique for doing this. If anyone is interested I can tell you how I do it. Its very important to me for speakers to be placed on one of these nodes for resonance control. The room is a living breathing thing. Constantly changing due to the temperature and humidity. The materials and gear in the room expand and contract with the seasons. Living in a four season world makes you aware of this.
My objective with this space is to make the room flexible for different speakers and gear configurations. The curtains are all on rods and can be slid around as needed for damping or not. The ceiling (was just exposed wood and steel beams, ductwork before) now has its cavities filled or enclosed with Roxul sound insulation and the ceiling including steel beams and duckwork has Roxul and tongue and groove pine enclosing it. It works well to diffuse the sound and sounds good to me. The steel horizontal beam and ductwork that protrudes down into the room in the pic helps greatly with room reflections. This has real advantages over a blank empty space. If anyone doesnt believe me try listening to the sound in your room with and without your couch in it.
I have done all the work so far myself except for hooking in the 2 dedicated lines to the main electrical box. I had two 20a lines put in this spring. The fusebox is very easy access in the basement and it happens to be located on the wall behind the left black Acoustat Spectra 33 speaker. As far as dimensions go - think of the room as an upside down letter L (or backwards number 7). The picture has me standing where the two lines join and shows the top portion in the space. It extends to the white wall. It is 17 wide by about 24 ft long in the current setup. For now I have heavy curtains that extend past the white wall to the right of that old couch in the picture separating the two spaces that make up the upside down L. My other dedicated room which I have had since 94 is directly adjacent to this one. I was standing in the doorway when I took the picture. I can stand at the open doorway between the rooms, hear the same lp / cd playing in both rooms same time and distinguish basic differences in presentation even though not in the sweetspot.
You seem to have quite a few speakers
I am 51 and have been at this hobby consciously since I was 12-13? I quess not sure. I have acquired what I consider good stuff in later earning years like others. There are also a couple each of preamps, amps, TTs, various cables in that picture. There are many ways to skin a cat in this hobby and keep yourself happy. I find the multi presentations from different speakers a lot of fun but more importantly it helps to keep me grounded, honest to myself and open minded. Just when you think youve heard something amazing from one speaker and are ready to proclaim it as the next coming; you go listen on another one and it presents the music to you in its unique way.
The new space has a very big weakness (Achilles heel). Our family room where my wife watches tv is on the floor above on the other side of the white wall with a picture on it. She doesnt like music above 70 db. Why do we always find out these things after the kids come along. She was rocking and rolling with me prior to that. I guess she was pretending... .
This unfortunately means I can forget about bringing the Relationship Destroyer speakers - aka - Winnie the Poohs - into this space. They will need to remain in my bunker aka dads panic room.
When she is not home I like to add in subs and crank up the music in the new room, jump around to the music waving my arms around. I have been caught doing this twice now. This activity (exercise?) is really the main reason for the delay in finishing...along with some cabernet sauvignon.
For those aware of my space buildout in my basement - here is a shot of the work in progress space. Its probably 40 % complete. Pls no comments on the mess. :(
Active work on the build out ended in late May when it warmed up. Will likely not start up again till late fall again. The gear will all end up on the left wall - I think. The JN Lenco and my diy SP10 can be seen on the back wall right now. I am trying to think up an aesthetic solution to the steel poles - they hold up the house so I cant really try to move them. The room is a big L shape so the speakers can be setup opposite the left wall too. Havent decided yet. Best sonics will dictate where they end up.
I set it up first per manufacturers instructions; then I analyzed it and I came up with my own procedure to refine it using the, imo, great dv505 jig. I describe this in the referenced post. This got me to about 75 80 %. The rest is done by ear as best as I can do against the second ET2 that is in that room. Why the ET2? Because it sounds more pleasant, musical and more satisfying to listen to. Comes closest to tape. All vinyl bass regardless of tonearm I tune listening to tape - raising and lowering the VTA to try to match it. I have to reset vtf each time for the pivot arms whenever I do this, because the vtf changes each time I raise or lower the fr64s or dv505 tonearm VTA. This is physics and a real PITA. Anyone with any tonearm that has advertised vta on the fly should try this test. Set you cartridge vtf at the lowest vta setting. Then raise it to the highest and check the vtf again. It will have changed on you and will be lower. Check your alignment while you are at it too. The ET2, 2.5 is the only tonearm I am aware of that does vta on the fly without changing vta and alignment on you. Current and past arms including the jmw12 and technics arms change parameters on you.
Also I found a substantial improvement leaving the stylus pressure at 0 and applying the tracking force by adjusting the counterweight.
Dover - I did try this technique with the dv505 quite a while back. But with the dv505 we are dealing with main and sub arms. Remained with the factory setup on the dv505.
Thanks for your JN Reference Lenco impression Dover.
I feel when someone listens to another system, in another room (in this case many time zones away from your own), and calls the experience very musical; it is a very big compliment.
So many variables go into the sound itself and affect resolution and detail, especially with vinyl. Room, speaker type placement, other gear involved. Imagine bringing that behemoth of a table home and listening to it with 2 same tonearms, and cartridges; at the same time in your own room?
My table used to be JNs personal reference table that he brought to 100 pound Classic status before selling to a local friend. As he continued with his Lenco evolution, the updates he came up with, he also performed for his friends table. This included the reference spindle, reference metacrylate mat which he bonds with the platter to become one, and the bear paw feet. Its at this point that I bought it from his friend.
Did you get a sense from it that if dropped into water even though wood that it would sink?
I find the original FR64 headshell does a remarkable job of damping the cartridge body resonances from high compliance MMs. I can literally pound (not tap) on the Lenco deck itself and the only sound that can be heard is my knuckles against the plinth. Imo - it says something for the arm quality itself and plinth build. Look forward to playing more with the tonearm after summer. Cheers
I had a good listen to the Jean Nantais Reference a couple of weeks ago in Ottawa.
Were you familiar with the room and gear ...would love to hear your opinion of it if you can share ?
FR64 I am a little embarrassed to say this tonearm has not yet made it past future audio project with me; to learn about it and fine tune it. The pic is the original one when it was setup temporarily in our living room. Its now in the second room I am building out. With the room build out, the OTLs, tweaking my main TT setup,.....plus summer.... I have not had time.
I don't feel I can even provide an opinion on it as I have lots to learn. So I will remember your tips (thanks)and reach out to you when I get around to it.
I can say for a pivot arm the anti-skating system is probably the slickest I have come across. I personally dont like weights on a string like my DV505. I see them as designer cop out. They dont belong on multi thousand dollar tonearms - imo. I do have 4 or 5 headshells including one from the Japanese seller I bought if from, that is really popular in Japan on the FR64. Its an Audio Technica MS-9.
I also considered at one time getting the VTA adjuster. But it doesn't make it VTA on the fly ? correct ? Can someone confirm this ? Dover do you use the VTA adjuster ?
The reason for this post. I ran today for the first time with them. It was a liberating experience. It reminded me a lot of my audio hobby as it also provides me with a liberating experience; but in a different way.
If you run I highly recommend you give these a try. Especially if you have knee or foot pains that hinder you. The common running shoe makes you pound down on the heel - not natural.
Can I assume you are in the audio biz based on your moniker? If I am wrong I apologize. I have a tremendous respect for anyone in the audio business. A business that for most of the folks I have come across; is based on audio passion and a love of music. I would not however want to deal with audiophile demands on a business level myself. My kids are challenging enough.
I will continue to post impressions of the OTLs as they are front and center in my main room. This room has always been about stress relief. If something is in there that causes more stress it is not good. They will continue to get a lot of use.
If you read my system thread you know my history with Peter (whom I just met late last year); the trial of the demo OTLs and now these new ones. There was no shipping involved in my case as Peter is within driving distance. They came to me within what I would consider a reasonable time period from when I committed to buying them. If you have personal experience with Peters products, I would be very much interested in talking with you, or anyone else for that matter. Especially any recent experiences (last 4-5 years).
Am I correct in assuming they aren't limited in what speakers they are suited for? I seem to recall reading they don't suffer from impedence mismatches with difficult speaker loads
A couple of things to consider Dan.
One - This is from Stereophile
"Higher in frequency, the response trend (averaged across a 30 degrees lateral window on the tweeter axis) is basically flat, but with a slight excess of energy in the presence region and a corresponding lack of energy in the top octave. All things being equal, this will make the speaker both a little too revealing of recorded detail and somewhat fussy when it comes to the quality of source and amplification components, just as LL noted in his auditioning comments."
They are talking about the 801 matrix. Right now the 801s are liking the OTLs... So this kind of lines up to what I am hearing re: power quality.
Two - Peter designed the OTLs around Acoustat power requirements. The Acoustats are the hardest speaker to drive that I have owned. Well, the Eminent Technology LFT8a are right up there too. Peter cant believe I havent hooked his amps up to the Acoustats yet.
Dan - where do your Tannoys fit in as far as the impedance curve goes ? Do you know what the ohm levels are from low frequency to the mids to the HF ?
These comments came from Peter himself. He has had an electronics repair business for many years and is well known on the audio scene.
He told me when I first met him that he builds the OTLs as peoples last amp/s. A little bit of marketing sure hey why not .....if you can back it up.
In regards to mine time is the best test. We will see. I cannot yet recommend them to a friend until I have owned them for a while ....a while after the honeymoon is over.
find it interesting that you observe the effect the new amps have on preamp precision. I've never heard that comment before, but I find it reasonable, and a welcome effect to have.
When I was 20 or 21 my boss at the time let me drive his big and heavy Mercedes Benz. I was astounded by the linearity of the gas pedal I am referring to the amount of travel there was when you pushed the gas pedal with your foot relative to how fast you went. It was so linear in response. It made a lasting impression on me.
I look forward to reading about the SET amp on your system thread Dan.
Holy Moly what a long post. I should have added a disclaimer to the bottom of it. So here it is.
I am a music lover / audiophile and I have other hobbies as well outside of this audio hobby. The previous post represents my opinion only. I am not an electronics engineer and in this hobby; I base everything on what I hear and feel. I am always learning as I go, and outside of what I actually hear and feel; I do research and post information that I believe is true. With that if anyone reading this feels I have said something that is incorrect in the above post let me know. Its important to me to say things that are correct. I would be happy to look into anything and post corrections if required. Cheers
Hello Dan I am still waiting for the warm spring to come to the Great Lakes area.
Here are three things I have learned about these OTLs, and at a level for the benefit of those reading that have never heard of OTLs or have never considered speaker impedance. Fwiw - probably the most important consideration for me when picking an amp with a speaker / speaker with an amp.
OTLs are unique. Why ?
First Important thing
Because they are a closed circuit without the speakers being connected. Its sort of like the electricity in your house. But here we are talking about very high quality, filtered, clean power on reserve. The AC Power that comes into the McAlister outboard transformers is cleaned, conditioned and super filtered (33,000uf) before going to the wood frames you see that house the tubes, and other parts of the amps. The Outboard Transformers (boxes) are located about 6 feet behind the tubes connected by umbilical cords; just like what connects my ARC SP11MK2 preamp to its outboard power supply. The term Outboard Transformer Less OTL for short is used. And there are different designs of OTLs.......just to make it more complicated. The output topology of McAlister amps are Wiggins Circlotron Design with modifications by Peter McAlister the designer and manufacturer.
So lets think about this closed circuit of power a little more. By being a closed circuit you can connect and unconnect your speakers at any time. It doesnt affect anything. The speaker cables tap into this waiting power reserve. Sort of like plugging a toaster, electric drill or micro wave into your wall AC outlet. You cant plug a toaster or microwave into the amps however. DO NOT TRY TO UNPLUG THE SPEAKER CABLES ON a SS, PUSH PULL, SET AMPs when on. They are open circuits and require the speakers to complete the circuit. So its important to understand this and how it makes these amps unique.
Here is the second important thing for me.
Because of the first point, the power of the OTL amp is constant **** ALWAYS THERE**** . In this case marketed as 195 watts per side but it is a conservative number. 240 has been mentioned in conversations with Peter. This is full Class A power waiting to be tapped into.
Here is the third but probably most important fact for me as an owner of different technology speakers. The power output does not vary with load impedances of different speakers. It is constant and has linear output one ohm and up. Even 40 - 80 ohm levels reached in full range ESL bass panels will get full power as long as your AC outlet/s can provide the juice. Try to do 40 - 80 ohms with a SS amp.....fwiw - Most of us have heard that a good SS amp will double down. What this means? a 100 watt solid state @8 ohms, should put out 200watts into 4 ohms, and put 400 watts into 2 ohms etc. So think about something for a moment.... what is a SS amp of 100 watt@8 ohms going to put out when asked to do 40 -80 ohms for full range ESL bass panels, when the bass in music peaks?
BTW I have tried this with a few amps including Krell, Classe, Bryston, Onkyo M Series. Sonics suffer. The soundstage gets narrower. Starts sounding lean and unmusical. Amps get hot. Badly designed amps ? will probably fail/break.
Anyone that says full range ESLs (not hybrids with cones) cant do good bass(within their spl range) should be questioned imo - on what type of amp they are using unless the speakers are known to be shy in the low octaves based on their design. Also in my opinion. If considering an expensive SS amp ask the seller what type of speakers it has driven. If the fellow says ESL or any other types that demand 40 80 ohms; pause and consider the situation isnt this like buying a sports car from a guy that has actually tracked it? Just a consideration.
So Solid State Amps are current amplifiers and the amount of output they put out is DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY YOUR SPEAKERS IMPEDANCE. (To impede means to resist) So SS output will vary in actual power output. It is not linear unless your speakers are linear. This (non-linearity) I have found has different consequences sonically when using the same amp on 3 or 4 different speakers; EVEN if all are dynamic cone speakers; due to their varying impedances. Even within the same speaker brand - small monitors have different impedances than full range speakers.
So OTLs since there power is constant and does not vary with speaker impedance should if designed properly be able to drive and sound good with any speaker. They are not just another amp; its a whole different way of powering your speakers. Sorry to digress but I felt this was important.
Back to these OTLs.
This is what the left channel tube layout looks like for the 195se OTL Amp.. The right one is mirror image. I have been told I will never need to ever change the tubes. Peter is still on his original tubes + 9 years at this point with his own OTL amps. Instead of doing a normal bias check/adjustment , which is changing the negative charge in amps like my RM9 and RM10; the measurements here are actually done for SIGNAL DRIVE on the output tubes. We are looking for measurement of about 20 millivolts for the signal drive. The linked pic also shows the type of tubes used. The output tubes cost about 9 dollars each.
When you turn the McAlister OTLs on - they start to light up right away but the startup relay takes about 20 seconds then kicks in. You hear two audible clicks from both channels as they activate. You are ready to roll. No need for a small warm up as with all my other tube amps to date. Play the music.
Dan, I am in a bit of a vulnerable state right now. What I mean is its been about 2 weeks, and feel I may be hypnotised by all those tubes! so I need to be careful what I say; what we say in the actual threads here becomes permanent. I dont want to become someone that buys a component; says its great for XX reasons. 6 months later they are announcing new components.
So what I can say right now - my impressions so far are consistent to when I demoed the older 9 year old OTLs last year and I posted impressions here. At that time I compared them against the Push Pull RM9 amp and the Classe SS Amp; but Peter has changed /improved some parts (caps, etc..) in these newer versions.
The amps dont seem to be working hard at all as I "break in" these OTL's. I get a sense of this power reserve - just waiting there - for the music peaks this may be the hypnotic part with all those tubes.
When I turn up the volume it really is more linear as the spls rise its noticeable audibly and mechanically by mechanically I notice it in my pre amps controls. Its like my SP11 gain and level controls have been replaced with higher precision ones. Seriously. The output as you raise the level is very even. Its like the (controls) have been ergonomically improved because of the way the amps respond to the controls. Yet its the same preamp.
The overall music has a sound that is quieter, cleaner (smoother again). Last year I said switching the push pull amp back in during the demo made it sound like it had a bit of a chest cold. I havent put the push pull amp back in yet to compare no rush to do so this time.
The swings in the music between quiet and higher spl levels ..it has more of an effect on me now - the swings are much more noticeable. One of the results of this - is it has resulted in listening at lower levels for me. I can actually leave the door open to the room if I want and my wife does not complain as much. This has never happened before especially 4 hours into a listening session.
Lastly for now
Vinyl is quieter - but not in a damped sort of way like when you load down an MC cartridge. You see I am running my MC cartridge full out on all LPs so far with no distortion evident on the very revealing 801 tweeters. ok I have said enough..I won't go into how good digital is sounding.
Hi Banquo - its been a long winter and I am still waiting for tulip bulbs to pop up. Enjoy your music. Don't forget to go out and smell the roses and water the plants.
Also just wanted to say on my previous post - I have no affiliation to tekx electronics other than being a happy customer.
I suffered what probably any music lover/audiophile would consider the utmost pain this past week. Speed stability issues with my reference source.
It was like serious withdrawal were talking about here. I put it off for a day, two, three - but in the end you need to face reality. I am addicted to it. I need it once a week for a fix.
So off I went to the Studer doctor with it. I ended up in a place that brought me to another world. The Studer doctor pictured above.
He came to my house to calibrate the machine. This time he said based on symptoms bring it to me. 1 hour drive away. Lucky my son was home to help me lift it. The decline in tape in studios is what allows him the time to now help hobbyists.
Yes in the tape world they are called turn tables. Fooled you ....eh....
A change of bearings in their individual spooling motors and the machine was back to new.
Sort of like changing the bearings on your boat trailer... but you need really steady hands.....:^)
Three separate motors control the tape movement on the Studer. On consumer machines there is only one motor with a band around the three moving parts. Remember this if you have any intentions on buying a machine one day.
Playing back of test signals revealed rock steady HF and LF signals. No timeline device needed here. It really is another league..... this 15 IPS tape.
BTW that 48 track in the picture. Roger is splitting it and making it into two 24 track machines. He told me that is just a baby. You should see the 96 track and 120 track assemblies.
Banquo363 - I wonder how they compare to other OTL's.
Hi Banquo These amps will drive a 1 ohm speaker or a 16 ohm speaker They dont care if the impedance of the speaker varies. At typical listening levels they run at only 1/3 of their capacity. Does anyone out there seeing this know of any other OTL that can do all of the above ?
Dear Henry, Its not MY money. There, that makes me feel better. Thanks.
Of my 3 other hobbies the one requires a change of running shoes every 500 miles. This usually means daddy needs new shoes every three months. So the costs are not too high there. Buying Nike or other brands can be sort of like high-end buying , but still the costs are contained. Good thing I only have two feet. My other two hobbies however, active in warmer months can consume more serious funds. At the ripe age of 51 of am prepared to put a serious dent in inheritance expectations.
Buying from a small manufacturer can have its perks. I am involved in the decision making process for the actual build of the amps. I get to choose. Amp options Location of umbilical cord, balanced / rca and input connector locations. Type and colour of wood and tube plugs as well as the color of power and operation lights.
McAlister OTL-195 versus Music Reference Push-Pull RM9 Update.
My day with Peter McAlister from McAlister Audio and the few days after. Using 801 monitors with 15 IPS master tape dubs. Modded ARC SP11-MKII used in ARCs hotrod mode. Also Tuner input mode used for straight tape play.
A little background Although McAlister Audio is located fairly close to me, ½ hour car ride, I did not know who Peter McAlister was, until I read about Peter and his amps recently. I contacted him and told him I was curious about how his OTL amps would sound on the 801s. He sounded interested. Enough so, that he offered to come over and bring two of his OTL-195 mono blocks to let me hear how they sounded. He also offered to let me listen to them for a few days on my own, in my own room, my own time. How could I resist?
So we scheduled a day and Peter came over with two of his older OTL-195 amps (7 or 8 years old). They are the ones in the pic I posted earlier. Anyone that knows Peter again I didnt before this - knows he is an avid ESL guy. Well Peter showed up with the amps, and when he saw my Acoustat Mod 3s on the main floor he did do a bit of a double take. But we were on a mission; so down we went into my panic room in the basement.
I played DJ, setting up the songs on tape and I let Peter sit in my sweet spot. First we listened to a few songs with the warmed up Push-Pull RM9. Then we switched to his OTLs and repeated the songs. Then we played a few more songs. It was a very educational and enjoyable session with Peter. I could write a little story about this session on its own, later if you guys would like. Significant SPL levels and power requirements. His reaction to tape, which he hadnt seen or heard in a long time, was consistent with others that heard tape this past year in my room. So when we were done Peter left his amps with me for a few days. What a nice guy I thought?
I listened to the OTLs for a few days with vinyl, tape and cd. At least 12 hours each day. I even brought my wife down a few times during this so she could do some listening. This was just before the Christmas break so my teenagers were not home yet. :^) After a few days passed, Peter came back and picked up his amps. I again thanked him for the opportunity to listen to them in my room my gear my time.
Later that day I put the RM9 back in and listened again. Contrasting sounds were immediately noticeable. I brought my wife down again and played some of the same vinyl, tape and cd for her. She could also hear the difference right away with the OTLs. It was very clear on the 801s. Let me say that the RM9 IMO is such a nice sounding amp (Ive said this before), with my gear, my room/size, and it is also very compact in size itself. I would probably never sell it unless I was forced to.
Well the RM9 all of a sudden sounded like it had a bit of a chest cold. Like the windpipe was not totally clean. Now - the interesting part for me was that the longer I listened to it, especially into the next day or two; the chest cold became less and less noticeable. So I was adjusting to the RM9 sound again. This is very consistent for me personally, with other audio gear areas the last few years (TTs - DD, Idler, String Drive, and Tonearms Pivot/Hybrid/Linear). Direct comparisons (same room/gear) reveal very clear differences. But our ears adjust over time. And in the end it really is just about the music anyway not the gear. Blessed are those that dont get caught up in the gear aspect and just listen to music.
I really dont need another amp/s. I played devils advocate with what I had heard. Listing out the cons with the OTLs was easy. The issues I had with them were all environmental. Considerations for space and heat issues. 2 OTL amps plus outboard transformers lots more space needed, and all those horizontal sweep tubes (even though they were only 9.99 bucks each). Room ventilation changes would also be needed. But one thing kept overriding all the cons - the memories of those few days and what I had heard. Those memories kept fueling that audio virus, plague, the disease that I have been cursed with for over 35 years.
I am in gear culling mode. Performing shootouts and selling off gear gathered over the years; After personally witnessing the attitudes of the upcoming generation (my two 18 year olds), I am determined at this point to be more like my teenagers and want to keep more of the money that comes out of this for myself, and give less to them.
So....
I ended up placing a build order this week with Peter for two of his OTL 195s. I get them in about a month. Handcrafted by Peter himself in Canada. The culling of gear will continue to pay for them.
Fwiw when I told my kids about my decision over Christmas holidays. They both said go for it. I now worry even more about the next generation.
12-12-12: Dover Hi Chris - I would change everything. Their solution is space constrained and a bit of a dogs breakfast. Could you PM me and I'll draft up some suggestions for you to consider.
Hi Dover - many thanks for the crossover document you sent me. Stark differences between your design and Northcreeks. I can see through the forest with your design. Thanks again. Chris
Hi Dover thanks for the encouragement on the crossovers. I will think about it. I am interested in your opinion of these Northcreek crossovers the link has pictures and some technical information. Skipping over the marketing - is there enough info for you to give me your opinion on any improvements you would make to their design. Would you change anything ? Thanks. Chris
Something funny going on here with these dm70s that I cant explain. What my wife and I are listening to doesnt match up to the specs. I keep dragging her down to listen to confirm things, so I know I am not losing it. I unplugged them last night. Am going to be open them up tonight to have a peek. Have since learned that John Bowers sourced the panels from JansZen.
+1 to using idle ESL Panels as energy absorbers. Also if idle ESL Panels are placed flat against both walls of a hallway leading to your house exit/entrance, your family members will think you are security scanning them as they walk by. They lasted about 4 hours in that location. My RM9 has KT-88 tubes as well that I use with the 801s.
Vegasears - but WHY when I am really happy with the stock 801S3
because its all part of this terminal audio disease, the need to hunt for the next .(fill in the blank) Thanks for the reality check I stopped thinking about the NC Crossover for now. Now watch another 801 owner with the NC crossovers installed come and post here next
FWIW I have not yet put in the crossovers because 1) lazy 2) other projects 3) scared of opening up that bottom vault. :^(
This did get me thinking about my personal experiences with these 801s and I added a couple of points here Appreciate any further tips, comments, improvement suggestions from yourself / other 801 audio brothers seeing this. Maybe we should start a thread for these Winnie the Pooh legends to help us refine our setups?
Two OTL 195 amps are scheduled to arrive early next week to use with my 801s. I will have the loan of them for a few days. Anyone want to hazard a guess at how they will compare with the Music Reference RM9 push pull amp. (87db) 801 S3 in a 12 x 24 room.
For those following the DM70 fun - In doing some more research I have learned (internet so how reliable it is idk but there were two versions. Version One - Power handling 25 watts at all frequencies. Version Two - The later DM70 Improved, which looked identical, was quoted as being suitable for amplifiers of 25-100w, but seemed otherwise the same.
Dover the early version supports what you said earlier on power handling. It appears only the C and CA versions had fuses as well. Mine are CA versions and have serial numbers in the 1300s so assume they are the later versions and the versions that the restorer was referring to in my earlier post. Actually I can confirm this since I have been pumping 50-60 watts through them which brought my wife down asking what was going on. Her previous affection for them has ended.
Three different amplifiers so far and very different sound characteristics with all of them. Two more amps to try out on them.
Power handling Quad 57 ESL versus B&W DM70 ESL Hybrid
I just got this email response to a number of questions I had about the DM70 versus Quad 57. It is from a manuafacturer of amplifiers/pre amps and a restorer/repairer of electrostatic speakers; who has actually restored a number of B&W DM70's.
Your Quad 57s are a full range electrostatic so the step up transformer has a very big ratio 200:1- additional windings with less turns ratio are used for the tweeter. Since the stators are close a limiting circuit has to be used to limit the input power. With your DM70s, look at the electrostatic array as a tweeter/upper midrange. Since this is not full range the step up transformer ratio is only 60:1 plus a crossover is used prior to the transformer. Generally you should never damage the electrostatic tweeter with any power input.
With this in mind look at your DM70s as a cone system only. You would have no problems with almost any power rating hundreds of watts of input power would not damage the electrostatic and you would hear distress in the woofer once it reached its maximum. We are just talking power and not performance. The DM70s do have an acoustical maximum output due the internal crossovers used to balance the electrostatic and woofer.
Hi Vegasears cool moniker. thanks for your post. I feel like we are lost brothers we both own 801 matrix S3 and Spectra 33s. I totally agree about the Acoustat Spectra 33s and lots of space. I have them hiding behind curtains right now so my wife cant complain. The biggest audiophile secret imo is curtains. For sonics and hiding equipment. I need to cull gear to get down to two rooms. I will be doing a shootout between the Acoustat Model 3s and Spectra 33s over the winter and selling one of them. Well thats the plan anyway. Have listened to both quite a bit but not in the same room.
I see you have also discovered the tube magic with the 801s. My 801s really sing with a tube pre and tube amp. I am currently talking with a known tube amp manufacturer that lives near me about trying out two of his OTL 195 amps on the 801s. I was at his home recently and heard the newer Italian Acoustats with his OTLs.
Curious if you have ever thought about the North Creek crossovers for the 801s ? In talking with George at North Creek he said they would discount their 800 series crossovers if a multiple order was put through. Something to think about, if interested let me know. He also told me the 801 matrix S3 still represents current technology. I found that very interesting. Maybe a bit of marketing ? IDK. All I know is each time I improve whats in the chain in front of 801s they just keep sounding better and better. They dont represent bottlenecks in my system. Unless I happen to find some 801ds which are rarer than an audiophile with no opinion - they are staying put. I listen in nearfield the speakers are 10 feet from the front wall (behind the speakers). FWIW the B&W BAF was a huge improvement in clarity of the low end. It all but eliminated woofer pumping with LP except at really high volumes.
Hi Mike The DM70 are unique for sure. I am the kind of guy that likes my cars black, so I would have preferred the darker woodgrain finish but am not complaining since it took about 5 years to find these samples. Will be posting 801 S3 versus DM70 impressions soon as they are in adjacent rooms.
Dover Im not so sure about the 25 watts rating.
My experience so far the last few days doesnt support this.
From the DM70 manual in the link.
"The Model 70 is capable of handling large inputs without distortion but to obtain the full benefit from this very low distortion system it is recommended that amplifiers with an R.M.S. output of over 30 watts per channel be used." Some of the equipment used in 1970 is listed as well
QUAD 33, DYNACO 120, SONY 1120, QUAD 50, SUGDEN 25 watts Class A, RADFORD 100 watts valve
This lines up with what I am hearing so far. In fact I will say these DM70s need 30 watts just to wake up. So I take the manual wording to mean a minimum of 30 watts should be used. I am putting through 45 right now per channel with no issues.
The power requirements seem to be night and day with the Quad 57s. My Quads sing with the Modjeski RM 10 amp . The DM70s sound anaemic with it. I substituted a refurbished m5060r Onkyo amp (130 x 2) I have owned since new and the DM70 just came alive. I am hooking up the RM9 to them next. Dover - I can't understand how you managed to damage these speakers with clean power - they have two fuses on them ? One for the woofer and one for the ESL panel. Unless the fuses weren't working.
I am getting 85-90 db average in a room where speakers are in the top right part of an upside down L shaped basement area with the Onkyo amp. This top part of the L area being 25 x 18 area.
I have read about the stacked quads but have never heard them. Myself, I just cant see it buying me anymore but more of the same so higher spls - but no lower bass ? The Quads are the most directional speaker I have owned as well. Mine already go more than loud enough with the RM10 Im quite happy. The DM70 are non directional and have just as big, if not a bigger sweetspot than dynamic cones. But more about this later.
Here is a guy that is about to stack Martin Logan CLS.
"Fragile" Please tell me what this means (amplifier/s room size). The last thing I want to do is blow the panels. Are they not more robust than the Quad 57s?
Very smooth and polite sounding.
I will post some impressions soon. I think this is fairly accurate for what I am hearing Dover with analog. Very smooth also means to me that the coil bass driver is not noticeable and coherency is very good. Assuming you listened to them with the horizontal ESL panels elevated to ear level? I noticed on their original stands they are way too short. I think B&W did this to make them appear smaller, and add to their appeal. They open up when elevated at ear level. They also do not have the B&W matrix bracing (this came later) so need they need to be coupled to a stable surface. Mine are now sitting on small blocks of credit valley stone cuts machined smooth on two sides, which sit on the poured concrete floor. I would never put these on suspended wood beam floors.
Dover final question - sorry - this is the really big question, and the reason I am a little giddy right now and will not post impressions. Did you ever hear them with a decent digital source? I am finding them a really good match with digital. All ESL's/Planars I have heard are a good match with digital - imo. These more so - so far? The CD was born in 1982. These were early 70's. When I said I had been listening to them for 4 days its been 90% digital, 10% vinyl - never happened before. usually the other way around.
Henry the crossover network is discussed on page 16 of the John Bowers link in my previous post. The design parameters start at page 9. I found the document interesting that prototypes they used to get similar sound, included a seven foot by three foot all ESL panel speaker; also a horn tweeter that needed to be two feet long on another speaker. Will post my own impressions soon.
Looks nice, but unlike any other B&W I've seen before
.
Dan, my wife thinks they look like two washing machines. She also thinks I am now seriously audio-gon-e bringing these into my asylum. But she also did something she has not done in a really long time. She listened to them with me for over 1 hour each of the last 4 days voluntarily. I promised my wife speakers will be culled over winter.
I did sell my second SP10MKii and had to say a reluctant goodbye to my ET LFT8a speakers to pay for these.
For those of you that may have a speaker bias in the hobby; the following link is the actual manual and provides a glimpse of what goes on in the minds of speaker designers heads during the actual design, testing and implementation phases including actual test data. It includes the reasoning (for this speaker) for choosing between ESL, Moving Coil and horn designs. I found it fascinating and rare to find this kind of literature.
Has anyone heard or seen this speaker before ? What do you guys make of it ? Henry you are an architect any comments on its design ? Ill tell you guys what my wife thinks of it after.
Its a bit of an enigma to say the least - no info at all here at audiogon.
After years of searching for a good pair, I accidentally came upon this pair a couple of weeks ago on Canadian soil. The B&W Electrostatic Hybrid. The ones I have come across previously to this point were always in bad condition, or overseas. This one has been totally restored. I have been listening to it for 4 days straight now. Any thoughts on it ?
Thx. Henry - appreciate your comments along with everyone else's. This is the only reason I continue to post my audio journey here. Its alot of fun for me to do. Hopefully for others reading too?
Dan, sorry to hear about the wire. Handling tonearm wire is a necessary evil in the analog hobby and I hate everything about handling it.
Plain-Jane Cardas wire
I am not so sure where the Plain-Jane comment comes from Dan? I own ET2's with silver and copper wire looms. The ones I prefer to use have a lot to do with how alive the room is and the resolution of the speakers with the gear in use. Synergy (very personal to each of us -imo) is the only thing that matters to me. Whichever works best in the room. here is an interesting link - I am not affiliated with the company.
A have discussed the Acutex 420str cartridge here a few times. I loaned this cracker jack box cartridge to Bruce Thigpen, (inventor of the ET2 tonearm) to try out a few months ago.
I wish you would loan me your RM9 for a time. I've always wanted to hear one. Hmmm. Maybe I'll have to dig out those driving directiions you sent me. LOL
Dan are you not up for a little cross country road trip ? How many miles/kilometers was it again :^)
If we werent entering the winter period and you were closer I would lend the RM9 to you. The cold weather coming will make that RM9 very welcome in my room which is in the basement of our house.
FWIW - The last time I loaned out an amp it never returned. It was my second CA-300. But the friend is very happy with it. I think very highly of the Classe CA-300 which I have owned for many years. The RM9 goes toe to toe with my CA-300 in powering the B&W 801 - in my room - and also provides tube magic with them. Or I should say the 801s reveal the magic how clean it sounds. Not your typical lush sounding tube amp. In contrast two Bryston Canadian amps I previously owned were both cold and sterile with these 801s. Reminiscing .
Anyway the RM9 has earned my respect. I have used the RM9 with the Quads carefully I know what that sounded like. The RM10 was designed to sound like the RM9. For these reason, plus the fact that Mr. Modjeski was using Quad 57s when he designed the RM10, compelled me strongly to purchase the RM10. Whenever I have bought audio stuff based on the this just makes sense to buy analogy rather than impulse buying it has usually worked out. I will say again here . thanks to someone on this thread that helped me to get the RM10 otherwise it could not have happened. Cheers Chris
As QUADAPHILES know that speaker has rather special requirements to both protect it from over voltage (sparking) and is somewhat amplifier fussy. The RM-10 has been popular among QUAD owners and it is widely known that I was using that speaker when I designed the RM-10. Roger Modjeski
Of the amps I own, I have tried all of them with my 57s, and they all work ok to drive this speaker its not a difficult speaker to drive at all. The worry is over driving them. I am scared of popping the 57s cherry. So I need to be very careful with all of them except two One amp lets me limit its output with output dials; the other my actual Quad amp - I have inserted the Quad factory resistors into the left and right channels to limit its output. But I believe this affects sonics.
Thanks to someone on this thread; I was provided with an opportunity to secure and purchase an RM10 amplifier recently to use with my Quads. My other Roger Modjeski amp an RM9, is one of my go to amps for my other speakers, which all present very difficult loads compared to the 57s especially the Acoustats and ET LFT8s the most difficult.
I am betting Mr. Modjeskis RM10 is taking these Quads to a new level.
I threw the 103R on afterwards, and while it delivered more of everything, it didn't seem to make me connect more to the music than the STR 415.
Dan Interesting - Your comments are repeated with other MM users on the MM thread. My 412 seems to have a bloom in the higher bass/low midrange which I believe obscures some details in the lower bass. The 420 does not seem to have this. MMs seem to do the midrange well,I find with the carts I have and a lot of the music lives there. I base this comment from what I am hearing running the Quad 57 in stock and modified form. Like your comment above, my modified Quad 57s deliver more of everything, but then there is less focus on the midrange and that is where the voices live. less connection ? You can buy Blue Tac at Walmart in the hardware section.
It seems just the motion of the record traveling past the stylus would be enough to dislodge it and give it a ride to oblivion.
LOL - Put on some really heavy rock with big bass for big groove modulations and see how much time it takes ?
Do you feel you have it sounding decent at this point Dan? It should get better on its own with hours.
The 420 was harder to setup than my 412 because the stylus is so small. At least I cant see any other reason for it. But it is a soundstage champ - deep. It forced me to move my nearfield chair back the first time I put it on. The 420 took around 70 hours but the improvement was really linear so not noticeable right away. But after a week youd say - hey that is sounding better.
I dont have the 415. I have the 412 and it sounds ok right out of the box on the ESLs which are more smoother sounding in general for me although a little bright/harsh on some material still. Its new also though not many hours. My 801s will not let me play at least 15 % of the material that can still sound quite good on the ESLs. They just reveal too many flaws in my gear setup or the recorded material. But that is ok because on the good material they are outstanding. Have a Beatles tape coming to me that I am really looking forward to hearing on them.
Once you superglue there is no return so try the blue tac first. It will change the resonances some.
They sure don't look like they should sound so good, do they?
Hi Dan - Can't remember why I bought that first 420str. It was someones comment on the MM thread, they were cheap so I figured WTH why not. I remember the seller had 70 of them they were all gone soon.
My most naked cartridges these Acutex. Look like there out of a cracker jack box. Frogman thinks it looks like the fuselage on a model airplane.
remember remove stylus guard and 4 dots of blue tac before you decide to actually super glue it.
Hi Dan glad you got your cartridge working it will improve with hours. Here is a link that shows good close-ups of the various Acutex styli. Scroll near the bottom for the 400 series. How small the 420 stylus is can be seen. IMO as a amateur I think its size and when properly aligned allows it to dig really deep in the groove. The best bass. But if not aligned well, it will scrape the groove sides wrong and cause distortion and sibilance. Any other thoughts?
I've given up on the Acutex for now, maybe I'll return to it later. Maybe you can give me some pointers on how you got your 420 to sound decent on your 505.
Its hard to diagnose analog remotely being a very mechanical thing with many variables. Im no guru either but here are my some thoughts anyway. The Acutex 4 series seems to highlight setup issues more than other MM cartridges I own. I have a 412 and a 420.
So two things the arm itself and the cartridge. Cant stress enough that the Dyna tonearm will not work close to 100% and you will not hear how good it can be holding that cartridge in the groove - if it is not level with the platter and balanced just like an air bearing tonearm. Most issues I have had with the Dyna have been related to this as it got moved from the JN Lenco, TNT, to the armpod with the SP10. Things can move over time as well as seasons change. Room support beams, rack, plinth, tonearm. So if something is not sounding right I always just start over - takes 10 minutes to check.
From the ground up a quick mental checklist of what I do. Im sure we all do this anyway?
Level the TT stand again especially if it has four legs instead of three.
Level the area on the platter where the stylus will travel.
After u level the platter, check the plinth level. Yes after. Hopefully the plinth - armboard is still level after you level the platter ? Some platters are not mounted totally level in a plinth, so leveling the plinth leaves the platter out. You need the platter level. Can your armboard be adjusted separately for level ? My JN Lenco has armboards that have separate mounting screws that can be adjusted for level. If not u can compensate within the tonearm mount itself.
Mount the Acutex using the jig as best as possible visually being exact does not matter at this point.
Level and balance the DV501 so it free floats - add AS at the lowest amount to just get the tonearm moving to the record edge when let go from the middle of the platter. Id start with the Arm height where the sub arm is level visually with the main arm. Add the necessary VTF. Azimuth should already be pretty close at this point if the arm was balanced and is level.
Now -when the wife is out of the house put on a couple of lps with nice females that croon to you with words like sssssweety, sssssexy, sssaucy, lusssstful, sssensssssuousssss - LOL - if you can get these right all other LPS will be good.
The Dyna jig is great and usually works 8 out of 10 times for me - but if there is too much sibilance the rest of the alignment is all about feel and then listening to me.
It seems a good percentage of the threads on audiogon are pivot owners trying to find the yellow brick road in regards to alignment ? Here is my take on it.
Cartridge alignment to me is like fixing the sharpness on an old TV with those old dial knobs remember those? Well the cartridge/stylus on a pivot arm - IS THE ACTUAL DIAL KNOB . Your initial cartridge position in the jig is like the midpoint on that dial knob. You would fix the sharpness on that old TV with feel and sight. Well this is all feel and listening. If you sense it is a little out, turn the cartridge a touch clockwise. Listen again did it get better or worse. If better but still there (sibilance) move a little more clockwise. If worse go back to the middle and go a smidgen counter clockwise. The jig should have you pretty close as far as overhang goes already, so it should not be necessary to move the cartridge forward or backward. But if it is still not sounding right move it forward or backward a bit. So you have four paths/variables to play with on a pivot arm. Trial and error trust your ears - not the lines on a protractor. I use the jig for Dyna and FR64s now so am not concerned about lines anymore. The first off center lp (all of them?) throws precise protractors out the window IMO. Too many audiophiles rely on these protractor lines and not listening with their ears. Go over the lines - see what happens. TT's are not precise instruments so a precise protractor ?. sorry to digress. ok putting on the teflon suit now.
But if the platter and DV501 are not level with each other ..it won't work good. its like shooting a target rifle with a flawed scope ?
Once that is done I would adjust as normal for bass / treble by raising or lowering the arm again remembering that VTF changes when you move a tonearm up and down and to readjust it. Hope this helps.
Dan - Does your Acutex induce any hum with the big idler motor when you hold it over the turning platter ?
420str impressions (based on past and current listening)
Scenarios
1)Listening to this cartridge in the following pivot tonearms. FR64s gimbal, DV505 hybrid, JM12 unipivot
2)A very nice gentleman from audiogon provided me with a unique CD. Recorded on this CD is an LP using a pivot arm with - different headshells 6 of them holding the following Acutex cartridges (312, 315, 320, 412, 415, 420)
3)SL Tonearms (ET2 and ET 2.5 both at 19 psi)
420str impressions
1) In regards to my own pivot tonearms (FR64s, DV505, JM12) I can say that with each of them; after quite a bit of work, I was able to make the 420str sound decent. If you are able to find a sweet spot for yourself do not remove it. Finding the sweet spot again can prove difficult. If using a headshell not an issue.
2) When listening to the LP that was recorded on the CD with a pivot arm / multiple headshells / various acutex cartridges. I personally found the 320, one of the most pleasant sounding and the 420 well it was probably one of the lesser liked sounds for me using a pivot arm on this recorded cd. I feel this is very significant.
3) SL Tonearms
Its a different story on a SL tonearm with a 420str in two ways. With overall sonics (very different presentation) and the ease of setup. Still the 420str forced me to get closer to zenith on the SL tonearm, over the previously mounted empire 4000 diii to get the sound I wanted. Does this mean the 400diii is easier to set up - due to its stylus type? I am assuming yes. So I can therefore say that, how good it will sound even on a SL tonearm is dependent on the level of adjustments available with your SL tonearm to get to Zenith and how well the arm tracks across the lp. I say this because if my tonearm and platter are not level and the wires not binding in the least way - I will get a little sibilance. (a couple sample lps I used to test this - Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions, Sade Diamond Life) Being linear means being anal about being level. For these reasons this cartridge sets the bar for me for requiring excellent setup. Its my test cartridge.
The 420str cartridge IMO works better in a SL tonearm. Having heard it both ways Pivot/SL provides a complete story not half. I am assuming this has something to do with the very small stylus and the requirement for precise angle/positioning in the groove as it is very different from all the other Acutex cartridges. Does anyone have a better explanation ?
I am using a small dot of blue tac on all sides of the body where the cartridge slides in. I am also currently running it at 1.9 gms.
I guess I'll send it to SS, unless you think I would be better served elsewhere. What do you say?
I wish I could provide a 3 line answer when asked for my opinion.
Well my opinion on this is solely based on having had two retips done by SS and one rebuild done by Axel. The SS retips took 3 months each.
I wholeheartedly recommend both SS and Axel for any routine retips. This retip procedure as I understand it in laymans terms, they source cantilevers and diamonds assembled and they (PUT IT - IN) the cartridge body. Line it up, test it. Someone (Nikola) tell me if my attempt at layman terms is incorrect. This appears to be a fascinating line of work with few around to do it. Forget about who will end up with the lp and TTs one day. Who will repair cartridges. I predict they will become more disposable or only manufacturer rebuilds ?
Now the dividing line for me between SS and Axel ? SS is for routine work and Axel for routine and also custom work. Peter for some reason felt my cartridge could not be fixed. The suspension was damaged. He called me about it. I think he (the business/staff) is capable to do it but just does not have the time with all the other work he has based on his current (way of doing things) ?
SS retipped my Benc Micro MC3 with a ruby retip, and my Clearaudio Virtuoso with a regular aluminum retip about 4 or 5 year ago. The wait was 3 months. They both came back sounding great. I know from the MM thread that Dave G has had Axel do one of his cartridges. Nikola has had many performed. If they see this maybe they can say how long it took. Nikola has also met this cartridge rebuild master. Dont let the big pond between North America and Europe keep you from sending him your cartridge. He speaks English very well through email. The cartridge arrived quickly to me from him.
Note: I read on the MM thread from Nikola that some prices went up due to the Japan sourced parts maybe Nikola can confirm this if he sees it. I have the old price list but best to get the new one from Axel. Nikola has posted the list on the MM thread.
So for a just a retip I dont feel u can go wrong with either.
I want to add one final thing here. We have all done something in this hobby that was stupid and cost us dearly. I can talk about this now because it doesnt hurt anymore. Dan, getting an old friend back might be putting this mildly now that I think of it. This is more like bringing someone back from the dead. This was my stupid thing - one of them anyways :^(
A few years ago I needed to repair a cartridge clip on the wire of the ET2 tonearm on an armpod. I got lazy and decided to leave the xv1 on there and just brought the whole armpod - tonearm cartridge all attached to my table.
I was about to start the soldering and got called upstairs. Came back down 15 minutes later, sat down and I think I moved the armpod, and it felt like something caught on something. I did not want to look. I waited 5, 10 seconds? Then I looked and saw nothing on the end of the cartridge body. I looked again. My heart sank. My soul left me I think.
I not only loped off the stylus but found out by SS and Axel that I also damaged the coils by the force the cantilever was sheared off with. Ouch. What took so long to repair aside from all the orders from the MM thread, was that one of the bolts was damaged and would not thread. Apparently a special Dyna bolt Axel waited for one from another cartridge but it never showed up. So Axel made one! So what would have cost 191 euros for a straight MC retip - cost me 271 euros to rebuild the coil as well !
A couple of years ago my previous reference cart suffered a terrible accident 15 feet from the TT. It still hurts to think about it. Think medieval guillotine. It was sent to SoundSmith. SS said it could not be repaired and sent it back to me with condolences. It was then sent to the manufacturer. A few weeks later they tell me they want to only sell me a new one.
During this time I got reacquainted with my now 11 year old MM virtuoso which was ruby retipped about four years ago by SS. I also got on board the MM thread train and picked up a few MM cartridges. I heard about Axel there from Nandric (Nikola) first. So - I sent my cartridge to Axel (June 11, 2011) as my last hope. This was it seems eons ago. I confess at times I gave up hope on it. Nikola encouraged me to keep at him every now and then what with all of Axels new found orders through the MM thread he was very busy. Well 15 months later, my dear old friend returned to me today. Thank you Axel.
I cant say enough about this man. I havent even paid for the work yet.
When run at 3 ohms I can make the sound so beautiful and appealing. Running it full out however on the modified ARC preamp produces that aggressiveness that tapes have. I am all smiles tonight.
Your statement about hearing the effects of the quartz-controlled speed correction on that Technics deck intrigues me as I can't audibly detect such a phenomenon on my TT-101 in comparison to my belt-drive Raven?
Henry - This is my last long post on this thread. I have tried to explain this phenomenon the best I can based on 35 years of listening consciously to music. This puts me in my mid teens when I bought my own audio gear for the first time and set up an audio system in my bedroom in my parents home. What I am saying here I say with sincerity, honesty and my personal opinion.
Per my previous post I have never heard a Raven or TT-101 in my setup - so no comment on them.
Four big rock aspects to this phenomena.
First a) External feedback b) Internal TT feedback resonances. As you are an architect I have to believe you have (a) under control. What about (b) however. How do you know the Victor is grounded properly or working in 100 condition. I dont know if you had it checked out by a mechanic. If so ensure the supports you are using for it are not introducing motor interference which will be inputted into the signal. How rigidly are the supports in place ? Do both MM's and MC's work equally well with it?
Two An analogy first. When you have a car you can drive it around all day and night for weeks and it can seem ok mechanically to you. Have you noticed what happens when you drive down an alley way at night or up/down one of those tight narrow parking ramps with the windows open ? All of a sudden you start hearing noises if there are any issues. It could be brake pads rubbing, it could be a wheel bearing. It may also be a belt near the engine. Whatever . Unless you are driving in this type of situation the problem will not manifest itself in more open area, until it gets bad enough.
Why am I talking about this? Well if you want to find out if your car is ok drive down an alley at night with the windows open. Ok - but for this hobby. Over the years I have had the exact same gear in different rooms. All different sounds. I currently have three rooms setup. One of the rooms, the dedicated one I have had since the kids were 1 year old 1995 is a longer narrow room 12 x 24. Multiple speakers have been set up in many configurations over the years. Nearfield always tells the best story with music for me. I can also hear things in that room better than any other room in the house. So I personally believe that 1) Listening in nearfield allows you to hear more and better, before reflections occur obscuring the sound and 2) The narrow alley way increases the audibility of sounds good and bad.
For me personally once I was allowed to hear nearfield, I couldnt go back to another speaker configuration in this hobby personally. Try to picture listening to Acoustat Spectra 33s in nearfield. I also lust after only one thing. The room. Some have great amazing rooms that are big and airy here at audiogon. When I see these rooms I say to myself. Wow. And as long as you are entertaining many friends in a large room. Its fantastic. Especially with large orchestra music. Because of my age I grew up listening to popular music that had groups of 3 5 people. Smaller rooms are fine for this IMO and in nearfield. Different boats for different waters.
Audiogon user Mafuta. Are the speakers - the speakers ? or the room ?
So 2) Room and 3) Speaker Placement. Two more Big Rocks in this hobby to me. Now this is the What I Think I Heard part, or what I didnt hear
The setup
All TT impressions were based on two tables being setup at the same time ready to go with a ET2 HP, and ET 2.5 tonearm both at 19 psi using an Empire 4000diii each. The Empire is a decent cartridge I rate 7/10 in my system. Both with their own phono cables terminating into the same purist audio venusta cable so alternating took little time, as did unplugging one air supply for the other as the connection is on the wall near the turntables. Using two of the same lps. I am not great with words describing sound so bear with me. In this hobby for me, what is always the greatest impact audibly and more noticeable to me, is when something gets taken away or disappears rather than when it is added. When this occurs if it is beneficial, and more pleasant sounding it is I have found a very good thing usually. Many times in the past when I have done something and it added to the sound my initial reaction might have been positive - but over time the sound sometimes proved fatiguing and a backward step. So I am very leery about added comments from folks when discussing their musical experiences. Unless there is a follow up done later that confirms it. Now - I want to talk about listening here for the mechanics only here (like the car in the alley way) and zeroing in on the one area that joins everything in a TT (the center of the TT universe - IMO) and what I consider at this point in this analog hobby to be the biggest Achilles Heel for some turntables, and the most susceptible to structure feedback.
The BEARING.
How many have actually looked at their TT bearing. How many have changed it or tried different lubricants with it. What happened? Well for me the sound changed dramatically each time I tried 3 different bearings and different lubricants with the TNT. My Lenco table has had different bearings put in by Jean Nantais from his own experiments, before I finally got it as it was his personal table. I have never opened up the SP10mkII to look at the bearing . Its plug and play. I just oil it. Not sure if I can even change out the bearing. The one I am using came from a private home studio and was never in a radio station.
Now if changing the physical bearing and adding different lubricants changes the sound so dramatically, how can people come on the forums and say their TT is neutral. There is no such thing as neutral. Its all just personal preferences IMO.
Near the conclusion of my own Goldilocks experiment I studied TT designs, to see which provided what I was looking for. This for me personally is made up of the 6 part checklist I summarized here.
My own personal choice came in as the Verdier table and it was based solely on meeting my design requirements and affordability. I was able to locate two used samples locally. I also chose it because it gave me access to the important parts of the TT as they are exposed. This is what allows us to gain access and upgrade with little cost except our time usually. This is very important to me. At this point of the hobby for me its just more satisfying to do something personally that adds to my music enjoyment. I need and want to know WHY the sound changed. What did I do? It is the intriguing part of the hobby for me, and totally separate from being a music lover, which we all are too. The weighting percentages just change between the two over time for all of us -IMO.
When I put the very first LP on with the Verdier my first gut reaction was - Damn! There was so much more meat on the bones now. It was not subtle. But why was this? Well it was like something had been removed, allowing more to come through. Well the Verdier has no physical bearing. Once I personally heard what a TT with no bearing sounded like in the same room, same gear, same setup it was clear to me. All of a sudden you know what to listen for, once you have heard it. It just becomes obvious and is hard to explain. Something that was in the music before being obscured like a veil, and not as noticeable to me before. Maybe someone with a TT design with no physical bearing can chime in here if they see this ?
The SP10 MKII was the speed stability champ, but sounded a little drier than the TNT and Lenco to me. The Verdier however made the SP10 sound more clearly like it was actually pushing its platter. I hope that is a good word to use. This sound characteristic made me believe I was hearing the effects of the bearing as it was being pushed, let off, pushed let off, pushed, let off .. by the design it is. (bearing/splindle/motor/platter) all connected in close proximity. So that is where my comment comes from. So in summary to answer the question 1) TT external/internal isolation 2) Nearfield 3) Narrow Alley 4) Bearing Design. Right or wrong that is my personal opinion and I am sticking to my story .for now.
This must not be a favourite listening experience for you compared to the Verdier?
Imagine there is a Porsche (or whatever your favourite car is) parked in your driveway. Now if there is a turbo version parked next to it and you are handed the keys to both which keys will you take. Its basic human nature. This hobby is no different. All my tables IMO are good representatives of DD, Idler and thread TTs. They each represent Porsches to me in this audio world. I would be very happy with any of them if I was only allowed to have one TT. I dismantled the Goldilocks setup very shortly after I introduced the Verdier. The TNT is sold. The Nantais Lenco and the SP10MKII are in separate rooms now making nice music for me there. As long as they are not side by side where comparisons can easily be made its not an issue. Its a similar scenario to my DV505 versus ET2 impressions posted here earlier. My biggest challenge right now is not TT based. When I walk downstairs the 801s are in a sealed room on the left and the Quad 57s are on the right. Im left perplexed not knowing which way to turn. They are not separated by 70kms anymore.
Sorry for the long post.
Cheers Chris
"It's not having what you want It's wanting what you've got" Sheryl Crow
that is one serious wall-mount for the SP-10MkII? It should be most effective at resisting structure-borne feedback?
Coming from a professional architect like yourself I take that comment as a sincere compliment. Thank you! I already know what version five is going to be. I was looking for an internet article on structure feedback that I found a while back, that you authored; to link here for the others to see. I can't find it now. Can you provide the link to it ?
Your statement about hearing the effects of the quartz-controlled speed correction on that Technics deck intrigues me as I can't audibly detect such a phenomenon on my TT-101 in comparison to my belt-drive Raven?
I have never heard a TT-101 or Raven in my room/setup so cant comment on them specifically.
This is not a short answer. So let me gather my thoughts and I will summarize my impressions and findings here shortly.
Its a bad angle. But until it starts taking better shape I am still too embarrassed to show the whole space. Too many wires, tools and building materials hanging around.
Please take note of the curtains. They perform three critical functions.
1) Sound treatment. 2) Hide unfinished walls. 3) Hide Acoustat Spectra 33 speakers so my wife doesnt get too mad at me too quickly.
The SP10 MKII Version Four is complete. Shes finally on the load bearing wall in the new room. Four Solid Stainless Steel legs are bolted to the top Sp10 plate along with the MDF plate/plinth below. This whole thing still rests on the AT616 footers which now sit on top of the hung wall shelf. Update pic added to the SP10 header in my page.
I got some news today from Germany regarding my XV1. Axel had received a screw/bolt for the repair that did not work well. He had to machine a new one himself. He thinks it will be ready in 14 days. A Japanese cartridge that has been rebuilt by a German. Thanks to Nikola for giving me the courage to ask him about it. The squeaky wheel analogy may have worked here? Fingers crossed.
Cheers everyone Posted some turntable impressions on June 29 - called big rock - small rock. The next day lost total access to my virtual page ? Still no access. Have some new pics to upload. If this is not resolved soon will start using a separate web page for all pics.
The room my Quad 57s are in will no longer be available. I got permission from my wife to finish a large space in the basement that was used only for storage. It is adjacent to the dedicated room containing the 801s. So I am acquiring more dedicated space and in return I am giving up shared space on the main floor.
Prepping and finishing this space through the summer. This will include adding some studs in sections on load bearing walls to ensure I have the necessary 16 inches between studs to hold a turntable shelf in multiple locations; so I can experiment with speaker placement. New room so many new possibilities. Enjoying summer and travelling. Hope everyone is well.
Thank you Henry I am really happy that you enjoyed Goldilocks and the three Turntables and appreciate your comments. Poking fun at ourselves is a requirement of Balkan humour as Nikola likes to say. I can now also post details supporting my statements and will do so soon. Cheers Chris
Hi Dave/Dan appreciate the comments. When you do a brain dump like that it is very difficult to click the submit button, when everything being said is based solely on what I am hearing, just an end user representing one opinion among many.
Dave you said.
the Durand in the Evolution/Blue Light room turned my head with the potential for a bit more than I am getting from my linear arm. (The Durand in another room was not as impressive.)
What you heard re-affirms to me that there is no silver bullet in this hobby, and the most important thing to me in this mechanical analog hobby, is still actual setup and attention to detail. I am willing to bet that the folks involved with the Evolution/Blue Light room have been working together on the setup for a quite a while ? or was the actual layout of the other room much different in comparison ?
Dan - A VTAF for the DV505 sounds interesting. I know one exists for the FR64s but have not felt a strong enough need to purchase it yet.
I would appreciate your thoughts on the performance of ET vs. DV-505.
Bottom line, according to factory recommended set-up, the Dyna has 2.2% tracing error at the outer groove. Apart from this disadvantage, is there anything the Dyna does sonically that you prefer to ET?
Sorry for taking so long with this Dave - I just kept adding info to it. I could have kept going. This is my record I think for words in a post.
Here are some personal DV505 impressions. Dave thx for prompting me. I had been meaning to add my thoughts about the DV505 because there doesnt seems to be much out there on this tonearm. I actually discussed the DV505 with Bruce Thigpen prior to my purchasing one. It was one of the many tonearms he analyzed. He has detailed measurements and data on all the arms he has reviewed. He likes the DV505. I could tell because when I mentioned it, it got his attention and his voice perked up when we discussed it.
DV505 setup. Anyone with a straight-line linear air bearing arm will have no trouble at all (I can guarantee it) setting up and enjoying the DV505 because of the importance of making it level and balanced its ingrained in us. The DV505 main and sub-arm must be level and balanced prior to setting VTF and antiskate, similar to my ET2 well minus the antiskate part. Once this condition is achieved the DV505 arm can be placed floating with cartridge above any part of the platter and it will not move just like an air bearing linear tracker. Tonearms like the FR64s have antiskate built into its arm design from the get go. When set up to float in this similar manner the fr64s floats back to the outside of platter from the inside due to the AS working.
Some at Agon have chosen to run the DV505 arm in static mode using only the sub arm weight for VTF and bypassing the dial. I dont agree with this and choose to follow the method of setup the designer chose. This is another discussion anyway. If anyone wants to discuss it I will. I also feel any happy DV505 owner would do really well with an air bearing linear tracker for the same reason of understanding the importance of being level and balanced.
Is the DV505 more Straightline or Offset Tonearm in Design and Execution ?
So the DV505 has this level/balanced similarity in set up with my ET2 straightline tonearm; But after that the DNA changes over very quickly to an offset tonearm. Its a hybrid arm yes, unique ? - but it is not a 50 50 split. I will call it 70% Offset Tonearm - 30% Straightline Tonearm, give or take a few percentage points. The DV505 has by design an offset, built into the main/sub arm joint, required or it would not be able to track at all. So it has as we know 1) offset, producing 2) an evil force making the DV505 shoot toward the record label when placed in a revolving record, requiring 3) antiskate to be used.
Bottomline There is a tug of war out there between two and three. Why am I harping on this? Well remember the words tug of war.
DV505 Controls and Mechanisms In normal use, properly set up, level / balanced and used as a standalone arm the DV505 works as designed for me. Whoever designed this arm had alot I think going on in his head. Its controls and mechanisms work really well, settings hold and are accurate. Setting the VTA height is a bit of a PITA as it requires loosening a screw and lowering or raising the arm, its not VTA on the fly, but it can be done fairly quickly. I personally dont change VTA that much anyway (not a big deal to me) but it needs to be considered for those who do change VTA or use different/many headshells/cartridges? The ET2 has VTA on the fly. Azimuth adjustment with the DV505 is strictly head shell based if it has it. The ET2 has this adjustment built into the armtube.
Sonics in my own room/gear/tuning I would have really liked to try my XV1 with the Dv505 by now, but it is still in the process of being rebuilt by Axel in Germany. I have however had two Empire 4000 dIIIs golds on both the DV505 and the ET 2.5 on the Lenco at the same time. Both terminating on Din Plugs and sharing the same phono cable - in alternating fashion. The DV505 sounds very pleasant, a refined sound, tracks wonderfully (as long as level and balanced) soundstage is very nice. Did not have as much of a LF bump as I heard with the JMW 12 (in my room). Bass was more controlled with the DV505. I believe because of the main arm portion staying level and balanced throughout the LP just a gut feel. If I heard nothing else I would be very content with this tonearm.
Then I would switch to the ET2 linear tracker and certain things became more obvious. For me in my room, the DV505 soundstage in comparison to the ET2 sounded a little more compressed, definitely narrower in presentation. Music on the DV505 was more like a picture frame, well defined, but with a border around the sound in my room. The ET2 when properly set up and air supply maximized in my room, throws a very wide and deep soundstage in comparison, with more information telling you what is happening on the stage. This is the first difference. Secondly the music presentation just seems to flow more effortlessly with the ET2 first track to the last. It is just more pleasant to listen to and less constrained sounding in my room. To me this is due to the position of the stylus in the groove, and the tug of war going with the DV505. How big a deal is this to me ? If I never heard the ET2 again no big deal at all. I listen to music in 3 very different sounding rooms and can spend all day in each of them if allowed. Unless you are directly comparing like this its not a big deal. They both make wonderful music. Note however the ET2 is really all or nothing; meaning if it is aligned to 90%, the distortion is very audible all the time. With a regular offset arm at 90-95% some people may not even notice the distortion. So give me personally an regular offset arm anytime over an air bearing linear tracker that is not at, or close to 100% aligned. They are more work. Here as well for me the DV505 again stays closer to the ET2 in needing to be set up properly to sound clean, over a regular offset arm.
I am not a fan of having 100 feet of tubing, along with using a medical pump designed to keep humans alive, running full tilt (no cycling on and off) to keep this ET2 tonearm going - but the sonics right now warrant it for me at this stage of the hobby. Besides all of it is hidden away and all it takes is a flip of a switch and I watch the PSI climb on the gauge. Some dont have room, or dont want to deal with equipment that has to be kept in another room. I fully understand this. I may get there one day too. I am not there yet.
Also - These ET2 impressions are based on a High Pressure ET2 or 2.5 at 19 psi. Now the differences I found between the older ET2 regular pressure say 4 psi versus 19 psi ? Lets use the analogy of water/pressure coming out of pipe. Imagine someone pointing a water pipe at you and letting it go full pressure. Thats the ET2 sound to me. Free flowing. Now add a wider diameter pipe increase pressure and get hit by that. That is the difference between the regular and high pressure ET2s sonically to me. Its a bigger pipe of sound coming at you. Now go add a bigger diameter pipe still, add more pressure still and let loose water again on someone. On the good tapes that is what the Studer at 15 IPS sounds like to me compared to my vinyl.
So because of the above the ET2 is my reference tonearm for vinyl sonics - HOWEVER - and this is a big however and the reason I could not just say yes or no in a quick answer.
I dont change cartridges around too much. I change mediums instead. If I was listening actively to 15 or more cartridges like some of these guys (gals?) on the MM thread, I would seriously consider and probably prefer the DV505 on the basis of ease and convenience in swapping out cartridges. In fact it would have to happen if you think about it, because you would eventually ruin the cartridge clips taking them off, on, off, on. Probably your back too depending what height level your TT is at.
So. I have no intention of selling my DV505. And I feel as long as there are people with deep pockets paying $7,8,9,10 k for tonearms, the DV505 IMO will not go down in value and can only go up I feel; especially when you see what went into making this tonearm. It is substantial and the pieces work together. It is one of those audio products that have a cool factor. My teenage son thinks its the coolest looking tonearm. Finally I enjoy reading A.Salvatore he pulls no punches. I dont agree with everything he says, all of us are different with our opinions, but he is fun to read. This DV505 is such a misunderstood tonearm. -----------------------------------------------------------
Dynavector 505- I have very limited experience with this tonearm. It was very idiosyncratic, working very well with some turntables and cartridges, and a disaster with others. I would only buy it if it's really cheap or with a return/refund "out". This will be difficult because it has now become something of a "cult" item.
A reader then says
"Prices for used mint 505's have skyrocketed in recent months and they commonly bring $800 or more. Last month one boxed 505 sold on Audiogon for $1200!!! Ridiculous... " Arthur then says.
I guess I am behind the times with this model. If this tonearm goes for $ 800 or more, I suppose you don't have to worry about finding (or selling) one "really cheap". -----------------------------------------------------------
What a crazy hobby this is. By disaster I am assuming it was a TT that could not handle the DV505 weight and caused the tonearm to move or not stay level and balanced. Or the arm was not level and balanced properly to begin with.
I am the guy that when looking for screws or bolts to mount a cartridge always seems to be missing one or the other or they dont thread together properly.
I am the guy when working in the yard looking for working gloves always finds two lefts or two rights.
I am the guy that is paranoid to vacuum the carpet in my room near the rack for fear of sucking up those missing screws and bolts dropped over the years; that I fully expect to magically again appear for me one day out of the blue ?
Audiophiles best tool BLUE TAC
Very small circles/blobs place 6 on a shelf on the rack whenever you have small objects like stylus guards, little circle bubble balances, or little brushes, etc.. attach them to the little blue tac circles they will not fall off and stay put. Easy to find.
The DV505 impressions became more detailed than I thought, and I was away this past weekend will post DV505 impressions soon.
Nikola as Henry - I thought u never heard the FR64s as well ? Measuring distortion ? hmm...interesting.
Hi Dave thx for the post and compliments. BTW - Do you remember your post to me a while back on a Agon thread to try thread with my TNT ? (back on a thread to try thread) :^) Anyway - I can still remember it as I had just started the Sp10 DD project. But I was like one of those race horses with blinders on and needed to go through the DD and then Idler phases first. I came full circle. But I did it on my own terms and for that I am content about where things are with me and this hobby right now. I really like the looks and what I have read about the Trans-Fi. Yours looks incredible. If I didnt own 2 ET2s I would probably buy one to try.
Regarding sonics ET2 vs DV505 this is not a quick yes, no and this is why kind of response. But since you asked I have already started putting together thoughts and will post my personal impressions here very shortly.
I received an Audio Technica MS-9 headshell post sale (gratis) a present from the seller of my Fr64s from Japan last week. I should say this seller to me, is very knowledgeable on Japanese analog gear. Although fairly light in construction, I am assuming it was designed to work well with the FR64s. Why else would he send it to me? BTW - I was very intrigued when I opened up the double boxed FR64s to see what a Japanese newspaper looks like as it was used as stuffing crumpled up between the box layers.
Now the interesting thing to me is this headshell has only two sets of screw slots. Last night I lined up the Empire 4000 dIII Gold on the outside slots closest to the front of the headshell as it is a longer cartridge. I then took out my new fr64s cartridge alignment jig .:^).... to try on it and guess where the stylus landed ? Right on the mark I had made on the Dv505 jig for the fr64s stylus.
Nikola I have to tell you I am feeling pretty good right now about my little discovery. When I showed my wife how nicely it lined up - she could care less :^(
Hi Dan I am going to bring the jig to my machinist (when things settle down)to have him make the stylus hole for the FR64s on it, as right now it is just a mark on the line. While he has it I will ask him to make a few of them.
Besides Nikola might want to use one for his Fr64s when he sets it up
Henry - I think you would like to try it too ? I mean, just to see if it really works ? Arent u a little curious ? I realize you are already the owner of the mother of all protractors
Hi Nikola Well thanks for popping my bubble. I was starting to feel good about myself. But as you know Balkan types can be very stubborn. The writing on the Jig may be in English but it was Made in Japan
Thx for the note on the distance. Yes, I have made a few armboards out of different woods to try. The JN Lenco design allows them to just be dropped in and bolted down. I also intend to experiment with 230 and 231.5 mm P2S. Actually making the hole 1.25 inches allows experimenting with both distances initially.
My previous post talked about something that is very important to me personally in regards to vinyl. I said
You can tweak it and once you have it dialed it in based on listening, mark the holes , drill them, and screw the tonearm in.
My own personal take on alignment. My expectation is I want these alignment devices to get me to about 90 to 95%. Every turntable, armboard, tonearm and especially cartridge is not identical. They are not precise instruments. Once I am in the ball park, I use my ears to fine tune the final 5-10% based on what I am hearing. When the day comes for me that I can no longer do this by ear - the fun and therapy it provides for me will be gone. I also feel each person should go outside the alignment parameters on these devices, whether they cost $5 or $1000 and see how far out they personally need to go before they start detecting any distortion. This will vary with people. Case in point - some vinyl people with nice systems have an inexpensive TT setup and are very happy listening to it. I envy them.
FWIW and my opinion again.
Tonearms have 3 very basic functions.
1) Line up the stylus as well as possible in the groove. Vinyl is not perfect. 2) Keep it there during play of a record. 3) Dampen or let resonances pass through.
1) My experience to date says linear trackers by design do number one better. 2) My experience to date says pivot arms do number 2 better, unless the linear tracker is of a good design and properly set up. 3) Dependent on the tonearm.
Again just my personal experience to date. Has anyone reading had different experiences ?
I won't discuss sound as this is subjective and personal.
FWIW - I have gone to great measures, over 10 years now with the linear trackers to satisfy the three points above. The quest is still not over. I know also personally, meaning (I have heard with my own ears in my room), how clean a hard diamond stylus tracking a plastic very imperfect record groove can sound compared to the master tape copy. Linear and Pivot. I set the record and tape playing a few seconds apart and I just switch the source dial on my preamp back and forth to hear the differences.
An update on my DV505 and FR64s comparison. This covers setup and alignment
I have read information on the different geometries for pivot arm alignment. I realize there are different schools of thought on this. FWIW - My take on this is that the tonearm designers knew their arms the best and their recommended alignment is the one we should be using. So, I have set up these tonearms as intended by the manufacturer any changes noted, using actual templates not copies. I wanted to emulate a new owners experience. Ive owned the DV505 for a while now but that doesnt matter here is why.
DV505
It doesnt IMO get any easier than this JIG For Dummies Makes it very easy providing for P2S and cartridge alignment. Even easier this tonearm is a surface mount so if mounting on a stationary plinth armboard like the JN Lenco l75, you do not need to screw it in right away. You can tweak it and once you have it dialed it in based on listening, mark the holes , drill them, and screw the tonearm in.
FR64s
FR Alignment template.
Pivot to Spindle. Very easy to use as well. I used 231.5mm instead of 230 per forum audiogon recommendations from members such as Henry (Halcro) and Daniel - Dertonarm. Cartridge/stylus alignment. Well unfortunately this is where the FR instructions were a bit of a let down for me. No protractors are provided or recommended by FR for this tonearm. There is also no alignment JIG like the DV505. FR show a picture only that tells you to actually eyeball the cartridge/stylus from the front and bottom of the headshell to line it up. Make sure it is straight and true. Seriously I now understand why we have all these 3rd party protractors available for this tonearm. This is a tonearm from the golden age of vinyl. What were they thinking?
Now IMO the DV505 user manual is also sub par, but it has a JIG for Dummies as a saving grace. So just as I was about to go looking for protractors FR does give a large piece of information on alignment. The stylus should be 7mm from the front of the headshell. This gave me an idea. But before I say what it is I need to say something. The FR manual actually does go on to say in regards to this 7mm measurement that a difference of one millimeter or less in this distance will not present any practical problems. I found this rather odd ? I expected more re: documentation.
Anyway back to my idea. I very carefully using magnifying glasses, lined up the cartridge/stylus on the FR64s headshell as best as I could using a large Millimeter ruler (not the one in the picture), so that the stylus was 7mm from the front of the head shell. I then carefully placed the Dynavector Jig on it, and discovered that the FR64s stylus position is exactly 3mm past the stylus hole for the Dynavector tonearm on the JIG. So I carefully marked the spot on the JIG. I have since tried this modified Dynavector jig with a few different cartridges and headshells and am happy to say it works. I now have a cartridge/stylus JIG for Dummies for both the DV505 and the FR64s.
Hi Nikola Apologies for the late reply significant job changes occurred the last couple of weeks that I am still coming to grips with. That is a very interesting story about the spoons. Their resemblance to a tonearm, a pivot one :^) is interesting too. U said Only the 'right' cabinet is still missing to 'show off with' them. Nobody can see them in the boxes.
Well maybe its time to really show off your tonearms to the world. A tonearm virtual system. Take the stored ones out for a nice picture and then put them back in their box. You will be able to see them everyday at anytime - online. This way even the box gets no wear.
I have heard many stories myself from my parents and my grandmother, the only grandparent I knew. One of the more interesting ones that stand out to me.
My father came to North America shortly after WWII with just the clothes on his back. His train destined for Detroit to see an uncle of his, the one who had paid for his train ticket. But the train first stopped in Toronto on the way to Detroit. On the platform he saw a few friends who asked where he was going? They convinced him to get off at Toronto. This was the start, and how I ended up years later being born Canadian instead of American. Cheers
Nikola Id love to try a glass of that Sliwowitz and I promise not to touch your babies (Tonearms).
These tonearms are very dangerous in this hobby as they can be expensive and tend to accumulate. They do not take up a lot of space .. like speakers can be put away in nice boxes as you have said or displayed.
Banquo you said
Now that I'm much older, I find that Aristotle argued (weirdly enough) that happiness amounts to the contemplation of the good.
Well - Sheryl Crow immortalized happiness for me in her song Soak up the Sun
It's not having what you want - It's wanting what you've got
I did not study philosophy and can not say which philosopher said what but I have heard on multiple occasions that a bad wife will turn a husband into a philosopher ? So I wonder about these philosophers sometimes back then. I hope my wife doesnt see this one day. I dont think I have started philosophizing .yet ?
I have come up with a cartridge alignment jig for the FR64s. More in my next post. Need to test it out some more.
Hi Nikola I always knew that you, along with Henry and a few others were connoisseurs of tonearms. But 7 specimens to get to your current fr64s ? Now that is a real aficionado. I had no idea. I underestimated your love for this tonearm. So I apologize for my stare comment even though I know you know it was made in fun. I must confess that Canadians like to poke sarcastic fun at ourselves this sarcasm probably stems from being mad at paying too many government taxes for far too long. We are also famous around the world for apologizing and I just proved that too. You are absolutely right about my narrow view well when it comes to conception of use. I see turntables, tonearms and cartridges as mechanical pieces only, a means to an end - enjoying my music - and myself as strictly an amateur user. But I have also discovered to my concern years ago with speakers and the last two years with analog, that I am a hoarder of gear. Cheers Chris
Hi Henry Thanks for making me feel better about bringing in another tonearm. :^)
BTW, your comments on the FR64s working well with MMs was one of the reasons I chose it. Add to this Mikes (Rugyboogie ) favorable impressions as well. Nikola (Nandric) talks about his FR64s too, but all he does is stare at his. He has not mounted it. Whats with that? I told him life is short and to use it. I hope he sees this.
IMO - Any tonearm worth its salt should be able to deal with high compliance MMs. This is very important to me because it means the arm designer built into the arm design, a method to either pass through or absorb and dissipate the high amount of resonance/vibrations MMs bring to the table. They should all work with MM and MC.
Does anyone feel this is too much to ask of a quality tonearm ?
I am calling this my Tonearm project.
This post includes the Introduction/Objectives.
Objective Compare the DV505 and the FR64s on the same table using the same cartridge.
Which Table to Use.
I chose the Jean Nantais Lenco L75 because :
1) It holds two tonearms. 2) A recognized and reviewed analog product.
My Platine holds one tonearm. The other would have to use an armpod. I do not have one that fits a collar tonearm.
The SP10MKII is a DIY Pet project. It doesnt count too many subjective factors involved like self pride. I want people reading this to get my personal impressions subjective as all our opinions are with as few variables as possible.
Cartridge - Two Empire 4000Diii.
If to me (again its all subjective) the FR64s trumps the DV505 I will makle the effort to have it mounted on the Platine and let it go against the ET-2.5. Someone already did this comparison on audiogon against a base ET 2.0. Mine comparison would be in real time.
Presence
The DV505 and FR64s on the same table are total opposites in design and contrast each other.
The Lenco is set up on the main floor in my second system. No one (family) has noticed the new shining stainless steel yet. This is a good thing because once three days go by .. I get to use the audiophile rule and can say what are you talking about it was always there... I have pulled this trick with speakers so a tonearm should be no problem ? I can also see now, how some people (no names to protect the innocent this time) like to just stare at their tonearms. They are like little statues when not in use.
Note: My FR64s came from Japan in like new condition, had been in storage a long time. The dial for VTF was stuck would not move. I sprayed some tuner fluid in it and gradually very slowly - got it moving again. PHEW .. The FR64s looks much bigger in pictures than in person sort of like the Studer. The Dynavector tonearm looks and is big.
I want to do a shootout comparison with my Quad 57s. If anyone is aware of a pair within driving distance to Southern Ontario please contact me. I would be very grateful.
I had already posted that I sold my VPI TNT - The fellow that purchased it kept at me for the JMW 12 tonearm so I sold it - the star of my rollerblock jrs. experiment video is no longer in the house.
Now the smart and prudent thing to do .. 4 Turntables and 3 Tonearms would be to sell one and maybe 2 Turntables
I bought another tone arm. :^(
The FR64s arrived this week. It is now setup on the Jean Nantais Lenco with the DV 505. Will post pics later.
System edited: Many updates, pics. Tweaks for ET2 - magnetic damping, tweaking for cartridge compliance/weight, possible ET 3.0 ? pic. 801 tips and observations. More to come.
A wife that does yard work good A wife that permits speaker placement for best sound in a shared room over room aesthetics better A wife that enjoys listening to music with you priceless.
I am curious to know what kind of wire your DV501 came with ?
The design of the ET2 tonearm allows for changing out a wire loom by any person in all but five minutes. You just pop off the armtube and fish the wire through the cartridge clips hole.
Hi Dan heh heh - as far as not working too hard goes. If it wasnt for my two 17 year olds heading into college/university in the fall I would be semi retiring at 50 listening to more music and a couple other things I like to do. Thats great news about the Dyna part coming in.
I own silver and copper ET2 looms.
Here is a cut and paste of the actual Takefive order (Cdn dollars) as a reference. .
I am very happy with it. Look at what I was charged for labor last line for this professional job. Gene did put it on the burner for a couple of days but I am sure it will start sounding even better as it burns in more.
More to follow I will provide my impressions of the silver and copper in my systems with different speakers later. Wife is nagging me to get to the spring yard work.
Hi Dan if I understand you ended up eliminating the full interface of pins in the headshell - a cleaner simpler signal. Only disadvantage being it takes longer to change carts now. I dont change carts often so that would not be a big deal to me. I move speakers in and out more often than my cartridges. But I know with Henry that would be a BIG problem.
Speaking of tonearm wires I got my new ET2.5 wire loom from takefive. I am really happy with how it worked out and how it sounds.
Crazy work week. Hi Dan That Dynavector is a very misunderstood tonearm if your read the forums. Some have tried to set it up in static mode, meaning defeating the dial VTF. I found out the arm is a 2 -1 horizontal to vertical mass ratio. Bruce Thigpen analyzed it. The ET2 in comparison is 6-1. Being level and balanced is critical to both of them to sound their best. With the dv505 I make it level and balanced first with the cartridge on it free floating above the platter using the sliding weight the dial vtf at 0. Then I set the dial vtf for the cartridge weight.
This DV505 is not even bolted in. It was designed to be able to be used this way well temporarily anyways. It is just sitting on the plinth on the rubber gasket with its weight holding it steady. How cool is that. My son the Ipodder thinks its really cool. But not enough to get into vinyl because it is not portable. Hope you get yours working soon.
Hi Henry - You have been busy.
I hear you when you say The reduction in noise-floor" elimination of 'grunge', 'noise' and 'distortion. I can say for me that I did not know what actual physical TT bearing noise sounded like, or at least its effect on the music anyways - until I did not hear it anymore with the Verdier. :^)
Hi Henry its good to hear from you. Any new projects or just enjoying listening to music ?
Hi Dan I dont like to solder and dont like touching the actual cartridge or the wires too much. My knobby fingers and cartridge clips dont get along very well.
In the past in trying to solder cartridge wires to new din plugs - I destroyed two of them - IOW - I melted them down enough to be unusable. I finally got a proper soldering kit with clamps and magnifying glass. But still I do not do it enough to get good at it. So unless I need to bandaid a break temporarily I buy wire already with clips and plugs from this place called takefiveaudio Ontario, Canada. Gene has been great.
Disclaimer this link and the other I put in for ultra analogue recordings is only as a customer that ordered their product, received it. and was happy with the product and service.
Hi Dan thanks for the post. It is because of posts like yours and others like it, as well as past emails I got well before audiogon shut down email - that encourages me to make this information public. My virtual system is less than a year old. I can say the only audio hobby joy that has surpasses my own enjoyment - is hearing others benefit from some of the findings.
IMO - There is no such thing as less skill and experience - just different. We all bring different expertise to the table. As far as expert knowledge goes well the classic expert definition experts are those that have tried something failed and learned from it.
This may sound a little far fetched to some but to me this Audio hobby is like the black hole in space and each of us have our own little spaceship going in all kinds of different directions. The only experts are ourselves in our own rooms.
Our rooms (are the black holes) and are all different - size/dimensions, materials, locations in the world, temperature, humidity, power quality. The gear for the most part is also different between people. I have put the same gear in four different rooms and got 4 different sounds. Try listening to your turntable/tonearm/stylus at say 16 degrees Celsius (61 f) and then at 22 celsius (72 f). The sounds are much different due to temperature alone. The higher temp sounds better to me in my room, the colder temp sounds leaner. Those in climate controlled rooms and good power supply from Hydro have a more consistent sound. Try also with two identical records. Weigh them- are they the same ? At the start of a listening session play one side of one lp. then play the same side with the other same lp on the same stylus. The second one will sound better because the stylus suspension is now warmed / loosened up. I learned a lot about structure feedback this past year from Henry (Halcro). He is an architect and deals with it in his profession. This was invaluable to me as I was experimenting with TT drive systems. Likewise seeing Henrys JVC TT / Armpods gave me the inspiration to experiment with my SP10.
My virtual system has been moved to ever evolving and my philosophy in this hobby clarified under system description. As an update cartridge descriptions and pics. Of note.
I have owned the 801s for 15 years. I have asked my wife to make a casket out of both of them for me when the day comes. The general consensus was always they need SS amps to drive those woofers. I tried differed amps all SS over the years, ended up with Classe ca300 and was happy for the longest time. Never thought about using tubes did not even consider it. It wont work is all that is heard on the forums/blogs and I believed it. So what changed. R2R demands made me consider using my tube amp this a long story and relates to a tape I got from here.
I talked to the producer was told to substitute in my tube amp as the recording was made from all tube gear. No digital / SS at all. Tried it and could not believe my ears. The smoothness now almost ESL like in the midrange and tweeters and the dynamics of cone woofers. The Roger Modjeski RM9 on 4 ohm setting is making the 801s sing. Its staying like this for a while. But here was the bigger surprise. Two preamps - an ARC SP11 mKII which has 6 tubes but a SS power supply. The other pre - amp is a modified all tube Audible Illusions Modulus 3. I brought the AI Mod 3 to my room and hooked her up to compare with the ARC. It is much better than the ARC SP11 MkII with tape. From a noise level, dynamics, transients, ambience. Granted it has been modified but its a simpler tube path design produces a more dynamic, alive sound with tape in my room. I cant explain it for now. Need to find a permanent spot on the shelf for it. The two ladies will be sharing space as the ARC trumps it for now with LP. I have heard the difference a better pre-amp with tape can make to the sound. I am now looking at a preamp designed for tape .
Hi Steve Thanks for your post on the thread. Youre getting used to your new touch pad I see? Dont you hate it when your caps lock button gets stuck like that ? :^) All kidding aside - For the others here, Steve (Slaw) ranks near the top of people I have come across in this hobby when it comes to passion for vinyl and music in general. He has thousands of lps. He got me onto Patricia Barber. I introduced him to Blue Rodeo.
My R2R Objectives
It is not my objective to replace vinyl with tape. It cant be done. Even if I could afford it the music software is not available yet .
I always had a curiosity for what the master tape dub sounds like. An opportunity came up for a Studer. I paid for it by selling a redundant turntable.
The first time I listened to the master tape dub of an lp I was familiar with I nearly soiled myself. The SPLs rose so easy beyond anything I had experienced before and filled the room. The dynamics, ambience, extensions both ends. I was infected. I really believe the pressure in the room with tape pressurizes the room in a way that goes above my own blood pressure therefore relaxing me sound crazy eh ? Well like I say on the Studer description - thats what I told my wife. She has no ear for this stuff but even she sat through a tape with me. Its a unique experience. I recommend it to anyone. Borrow a good R2R deck and find out with a tape at 15 ips.
Again this is not to replace vinyl or digital. It supplements it. I am looking to purchase enough music to be able to listen one day a week all day. Frankly anymore and I will lose my hearing. The other days are vinyl and some digital of albums I cannot locate.
Let me ask anyone seeing this a question. What is crazier - Buying a tonearm or cartridge that costs $3000 + or spending $2000 on refurbished R2R tape deck plus $100 $300 dollars on 6 master tape dubs that bring you closer to the music than anything I have heard before. I know what my answer is.
A lot of R2R music is actually available, but until you actively start the hunt you truly cant see the forest for the trees. Those that have been doing this (searching) for a few years now - know what I am talking about. I am now just learning how to hunt the tricks and techniques. I like to learn and right now I am total sponge learning from many people, some on this thread.
Cheers Henry. Thx for the comments on the system page. Regarding the armpods/plinths. It is unfortunate but the VPI TNT and Lenco both take up so much real estate on their platforms that there was no space for a direct armpod comparison with them. I feel an armpod would be the most interesting to try with the Lenco since the motor is integral with the plinth. But its 10 inches high so my armpods dont fit. The Lenco is built and damped very well even if its finish is not to an Artisan level. Maybe JNs newer work is ?
Give me some time to prepare drive type comparisons. I will provide my honest impressions.
Your question Is there any consistent audible signature between the arms on separate 'pods' compared to that mounted on the only 'plinth' you seem to have?
Well the tonearms on the pods are undeniably easier to set up and stress free no drilling of holes required. You also have time to dial them in right. Drilling holes into a plinth to set up a tonearm is nerve racking for me. I am always wondering if I did the best I could.
So if I say the tonearm sounded better on the pod rather than the plinth it could be because they were dialed in better ? but that is not really the case. Again what I hear is that the JN plinth is a really well done plinth its advantage in damping is its design and 100 pounds but this is also its disadvantage to me. Its so big. If I told you the little SP10 puts out just as much bass would you believe me? Wait for my impressions.
If someone has not used an armpod he/she isnt aware of what we are talking about here this infinite adjustment capability provides for a stress free setup does it not ? Isolated armpods and pivot armboards that swivel to a large extent - free you of the you better get it right the first time thinking when drilling holes in plinths.
I will also say this for now. I got some very good advice from you about structure feedback here and in the forums. I put it to good use and it helped me so much in 2011 in my Sp10 setup with the armpod.
I got similar good advice from Geoch (George) and Daniel about retail/commercial products and the compromises they contain - affected by $$, market demand, design, reviews,
I learned the better quality products are made up of better quality parts. If we do the research on the TT designs we like we can pick out the designs that allow us access to those different parts - to make them even better in the future - crazy audiophiles.
This was a big reason for the recent TT decision with the Verdier. For the bigger reason see the TNT write up on my page.
Fresh start to the new year. System page updated descriptions and pics. What a mess it was :^| so for the new year I tried a little bit of organization and categorization. Happy New Year to everyone. Cheers
I have three different drive type turntables. I have been comparing them for quite a while now with the same tonearm and cartridge. Each of them - Idler, Thread, and Direct Drive bring different strengths and weaknesses. Their nuances can be heard in my nearfield setup. Its made me very curious. Which comes closest to the sound of the actual R2R master tape that the LPs I am using are cut from. After many (many) years of thinking about this I finally bought a R2R machine. I hope to receive it prior to the end of the year. My spare B&W 803 Matrix S2s that I was saving for one of my kids paid the price to bring this machine in.
I have managed to find the actual master tapes used to make lps for Pink Floyd Wishing You Were Here and The Wall , The Beatles Abbey Road and White Album, along with Genesis Duke and Abacab and Supertramp Crime of the Century Ok - I am joking about the master tapes. :^(
The search is on for tapes. I have no idea what to expect with this. I am not looking to replace vinyl just supplement it with the ultimate R2R experience at 15 ips. Life is short. Enjoy it with whatever brings you passion.
Hi Sam fellow Dsmer - haha Yes Thuchan and Dertonearm are very knowledgeable. I sent Thuchan an email showing him a mod for his ET2 I hope he tries it over the holidays. I have also asked D for some Bavarian thread. Regarding your TT/ET2 yes please reach out to me when ready. I have sent you an email about the RTR hope you see it.
Banquo the lady I talked to at thread exchange had a sultry voice and a southern accent. I believe she said North Carolina. The kind of female voice that if she says to you to jump you jump heh heh. You just hope you are not on the edge of a cliff at the time.
Started with Gutermann silk thread s303. Fabricland only sold this size. Found it stretchy so I needed to double up on the size. While in use the sound was phenomenal until the last track. I noticed note decay problems on last track when the record is spinning the quickest for the cartridge.
Tried 15 lb braided spider fishing line next as recommended by Mike at VPI. I must have got the wrong one - there were only 15 choices to pick from! It didn't work well - tying the knot was hard. Will keep it for summer muskie fishing.
On to Unwaxed dental floss thx for the recommendation Rugyboogie. Pharmacist didn't even know if they sold unwaxed floss when I called over. She had to go look. They did sell it - $1.75. Wow easy to cut and tie. U can never have enough floss anyway. The floss makes a funny noise when I start and stop motor. But its working great. The best so far. 15 records in. So far I like it the best. No apparent note decay on the last track.
I called "Thread Exchange" google it. They are sending me 6 diameter samples of Aramid (kevlar) a few feet of each to try out. For free! Rumor is this is the secret BAVARIAN thread. When I told the lady what it is being used for she didn't even bat an eye. She must have heard many stories in the past.
This is not the old TNT. That SDS is now one of the most valuable components to me. Set at 64.44 with the unwaxed floss.
I have added a thread drive TT to my idler / direct drive comparison. A modified TNT. It has a pneumatic suspension, the original very heavy lead platter and is driven by the VPI SDS.
ergo analog cessationem vinyl (proposed diagnosis to appear in DSM-5, hehe)
You are hilarious Sam and contagious. DSM-5 - lol !
Pls see under my system description section (ET2 for MM )
Personality pre-requisite for this ET arm.
Synergy with your spouse and your hobby. I am envious. But then again I can bring in components without needing a second opinion. Hehe. I just need to bring them in when no one is home. Bad timing on Fedex arrivals can be killers. I dread those calls.
Hello Chris - Honey whats in this package that just came in from California ?
Sounds like you have a team helping you with your ET Please reach out to me if the forest starts getting hard to see because of the trees. I will pm u regarding some RTR questions I have.
Here are my top 6 tips for setting up ET Tonearms after over 8 years of using them. I am still learning about them. They keep teaching me. Bruce Thigpen is a great resource. If someone reads this and can offer me advice to make my set up better please chime in.
I use an ET 2.0 with High Pressure Manifold for MM cartridges. Its spindle resonates at 5-6 hz.
I use an ET 2.5 with Carbon Fibre arm wand and High Pressure Manifold for MC cartridges. The larger diameter 2.5 spindle resonates at 3-4 hz.
I see a number of setups here on system pages that have not been set up for optimum sonics.
1)PROPER I BEAM SETUP - One of the biggest problem areas I see from looking at pictures and in talking with owners. The I beam holds the lead weights and this is the area that is used to adjust VTF and customize the horizontal / vertical ratio of the arm thereby changing the sound. The Brass Rings are NOT counterweights (read P.32 of the Manual). They resonate and can move on the thread when the arm is raised and lowered over time. For ultimate rigidity use lead weights only and order more if needed from Bruce Thigpen or make your own you can also find lead at auto shops wheel rim weights. Cut into similar rectangular squares and drill same diameter holes through them. Keep the I beam parallel with the Arm wand. If you are using a heavier MC you will need to get more lead weights IMO. Dont leave all those lead weights way out on the end of the I Beam to get the proper VTF. Get more of them and bring them closer to the spindle. Have a look at how many owners used the brass rings as counterweights. These owners have not heard the best this arm can do.
2) BASS RESPONSE - The ET2 has a horizontal to vertical mass ratio of 6 1 and flat neutral response down to 5 hz. This has been tested by Eminent Technology. If you want to customize the sound add more bass ? Increase the vertical mass. This can be done by adjusting the location and amount of counterweights and their position on the I Beam. For example. If you use 5 weights in the middle of the I beam to give you the VTF you need. You could add two more weights and move the counterweight holder closer to the spindle. You have increased the vertical ratio by doing this. You will get more bass. This does not refer to the SRA which is a separate control. See manual
3) Do not use the sub base plate this will only introduce resonances with an extra layer - mount the arm on its spikes directly to the surface of the platform.
4) These are AIR bearing tonearms and as such I have found other than proper setup the way to get the most out them is to isolate them from structure feedback vibrations, put them on a rigid platform (NOT SUSPENDED ) and Optimize the AIR System. New owners tend to ignore the pump because they try to figure out how the arm works first and just assume its fine especially when buying used. I did too with my first one. The original pumps work at around 4 psi and a regular ET2 base arm needs at least 3.5 to even work. Source a better pump such as an affordable Medo AC0110 on Ebay, raise the PSI to between 7 and 10 psi on the ET 2 and see how it sounds in your system. For better ET 2.0 sonics upgrade and get the high pressure manifold from Eminent Technology which handles more PSI. The ET 2.5 comes with this manifold as a standard. We are now talking about acquiring pumps that will provide more than 20 psi that can be regulated down to a stable 19 psi at the arm itself. This is the maximum the arm can handle before it starts to resonate. These pumps usually require a separate area for setup due to the noise. Many people do not have this space available. Unfortunate.
5) Incorrect dressing of the wires. The arm when cued but left raised will go across the record if you blow on it - its that sensitive. If your wires are not dressed properly they will tug on the arm and it will not perform properly. Running the wire through the spindle works well and is the original design by Bruce Thigpen. Some modify and run the wire outside of the air bearing spindle. This is fine but the weight of the wire if not done properly will tug on the arm wand so dressing it this way requires extra care. I have seen some really nice solutions from members. I am hoping they chime in here.
6) Leveling - The spindle that holds the arm wand floats on a cushion of air and needs to be level. Instead of using the accessory brass weights to do this, I use blue tac the same weight as the cartridge to make it free float. Its much quicker and also makes cartridge changes very easy. Gravity should then be used to level the arm using the bolts on either side of the arm post. When the arm is level it will not move one way or another. Do not overtighten the bolts and screws. Snug works best. You can deform the parts and possibly crack them by tightening too much .
Hope this helps new and existing owners of the ET2 arm.
Dear Banquo, Well made point touchee ! but looks are deceiving. Let me explain. I would also like to offer up some advice to those other poor souls like me that are inflicted with this multi speaker disease problem. This advice is based on 27 years experience with the same woman . A fine lady my wife but also someone that doesnt like to listen to music at over 70 db. There is a method to my madness I believe. Here is the advice in three very key words.
LOW TRAFFIC AREA.
The idle speakers need to be out of sight and out of mind. That location I mentioned although it appears not appropriate is perfect as it is the former room where we watched movies with our kids. With our crazy schedules and them being 17 now we are never all in there anymore. If your spouse is bumping into the idle speakers you will have problems. If they are blocking her access to somewhere she wants to go in the house, you will have BIGGER problems. The key is not to let her see them everyday. So when she says where did these come from, the automatic reply is oh honey dont worry I just moved them from that other room to do some testing. They will be gone by next week trust me. :^) Devious Sam?
Hi Rugyboogie fellow canuck :^) I was the one that replied back to you the other day on canuckaudiomart - about the timeline. Thx for the post boy u have some really nice toys. I couldnt believe your treasure chest story. I almost lost those Acoustat 3s a few weeks ago. These door like speakers were being stored just outside my sound room (just for a few months ). My wife I guess finally had enough - so I put an ad to sell them on canuckaudio. I stuffed them into my room before the chap showed up. Warmed them up turned them on for him they sounded good. Too good. A sort of panic started inside of me. He liked them but said he needed to get approval from his wife due to their size. I took the ad down, moved them upstairs and now hide them in the corner of that room they are pictured in when not using them. I still havent got over my speaker problem. I have a good wife.
Thank u Sam I just looked at your system page and a huge déjà vu moment came to me. I will tell you on your system page. Too coincidental.
I call my page Weekend Vinyl but I own more speakers than I do cartridges. Those 801s will be with me till the end. They cant be replaced without spending mucho dinero.
I have had a number of emails about the ET setups I will be posting tips here soon and will open up an ET thread for owners interested ? I hope you will contribute. There are many shortcuts to straightline audio nirvana! Cheers Chris
The only thing that has kept me from using a wall mount is a very bad habit I have of moving speakers around from one end of the room to the other experimenting. Placements did not last more than a couple of months. I would of had to redo the walls for the holes. This analog phase I am going through has changed that so maybe I am ready for a wall unit now. Its current spot is a good one though.
Between Henry's shouting at the cartridge and Banquo and I jumping around our soundrooms we must paint quite a picture. I don't dare tell you now what I do to get the best bass response from an ESL in a room.
Henry - what excellent info. What value you offer. I feel obligated now to offer you 4 SS legs for your JVC - :^)
I must say though that the building code in Canada is alot like the northern States and much stricter I imagine than further down south. I do have the crushed gravel (hardcore) underneath but -
I live near a river with many underground springs / acquifiers. There is a large lake near me (2 kms) not (Lake Ontario) and we are only 8 feet above its elevation.
I solved my problem in that room so I am ok for now - The SP10 will one day go on the wall. The 100 lb lenco is a beast though.
I will tell you what I did but I also would like your opinion as an architect to explain something to me as well at the end of this. The solution involved moving the TT rack.
I live in a two story house with a full basement that has a poured cement floor. The house is built on dry sandy soil. My soundroom has been built on the poured slab in a corner of the basement. On top of the cement slab is an underpad and then the actual carpet. I turned everything on except for the TT platter/motor. Preamp muted and gain and level controls set to 0. Put LP onto the platter (TT off ) lowered stylus onto a stationary record. I unmuted the preamp and turned gain and level controls to what represents really high DB levels in my room. I started stomping down on the floor around my room really hard.
In certain areas I could hear the thumps through the speakers like the previous TT location. I was really surprised by how much feedback this stylus was picking up. I got to an area only a couple of feet away from the previous TT location that even jumping up and down produced no audible noise at all through the speakers. I set the TT up in this area. I repeated this exercise. All was still quiet.
So in the previous TT location this went mostly un-noticed with the AT616 footers. The SS Legs being just stainless steel exposed it and made me have to fix the root of the problem. Just my Opinion. I suppose if moving the Rack was not an option (family / shared room) then a better rack / isolation would be necessary ? Or going back to the AT616s. Am I making sense ?
My question is why does the poured concrete resonate so much, or does everything resonate and the stylus is just really sensitive. Does the sandy soil underneath the cement contribute to it as opposed to if it was more claylike ?
Hi Desmond Thanks for letting me know that the Roller Block Jrs. will support the weight. I will be trying them out in a couple of weeks. Based on what I heard during the armpod experiment, I am really looking forward to hearing what they sound like.
I know and respect the fact that you spent a lot of time tuning your own system. I bought the AT616's originally for the SP10, based on your and Rauls suggestions. They sound fantastic under there and I have posted my impressions about them many times as you know. But this hobby for me is a kind of therapy, so I am always looking to experiment, improve, push the envelope. Have you ever tried anything like these with your SP10?
My offer still stands to Banquo, Nikola or yourself. First one to take me up on it. I extend it to Raul as well if he sees this but he needs to first show me a picture of his armpod. :^)
All I ask is you cover the shipping to you.
I am very happy with the Stainless Steel Legs for the following reasons.
They become part of the SP10. They make it a whole unit.
They offer the SP10 the same rigidity and contact points as the armpod. They are both on spikes.
The actual SP10 is now about 5 lbs heavier.
The entire SP10 platter/motor unit is now free hanging and does not touch anything, yet is it grounded to the shelf better - IMO.
There is a blacker background with my ET 2.5.
The AT-616's dampen the Sp10 more than the SS legs. In my room there is more resolution with the SS legs, and tighter bass.
I resolved the issues I had earlier that were only occurring at over 100 db levels. I believe it is better to deal with structure feedback before it gets to the gear if possible. (i.e. the shelf below).
The cold fall weather came here on the weekend and kept me inside and got me curious yesterday. Curiosity killed the cat. I looked around and saw 4 different types of footers I can experiment with. Have some fun at no cost.
Before I posted this I called the guy to confirm he still has some stainless material left and can do this. I will eat the cost to me $50 to make one set. Just need any of you to cover the shipping. We sp10ers need to stick together. I just need to know how long to make them to work with your armpod. Remember the SP10 top plate is 1 inch. They take 2 minutes to screw on.
I changed out the 3 mapleshade heavy footers under the maple slab that supports the SP10 MkII and the Arm Pod, with the AT-616 footers today. I just happened to have four of them laying around :^).
I needed to use all four of them to ensure stability due to the weight involved but they are adjustable which is a bonus. They can support 15 kilograms each.
I am going to try them for a week or so and then switch in the rollerblock jrs for a listen. Does anyone know if the Jrs. will support over 80 lbs ?
Will report back all the differences after I am done.
Past experience has shown me that these tweaks are all subjective and very personal anyway. All our gear is different but even more important no one has the same room - which I feel is the biggest factor in audio.
Dgob - thx for inputting into the thread. Henry - When I built my own plinth a few years ago now I used 3 footers only because the fourth was not required. The weight alone rendered it unnecessary - I thought so anyway.
Proper Leveling with a linear tracking air-bearing arm is absolutely critical. So I have a very strong bias for anything that can help make this easier to set up and keep it level.
BTW - My Jean Nantais Lenco 75 has threaded holes for only 3 feet on the bottom of the plinth. He chose to screw Bear Claw Feet into this TT.
Hi Henry your post gave me some interesting thoughts. Stability is very important. As an architect I am assuming that it weighs in as a very heavy bias with you as well and understandably so. Whether we are talking about a building, bridge, or even an audio rack or turntable for that matter. So I agree with you stability is very important. Stability for me means one thing though. Someone that lives where there are earthquakes would have another meaning of what stability is I assume. For me stability with this hobby is the component must be stable in normal everyday use and further not move or cause any problems in the longer term. Like our heavy armpods. I can also say the three AT 616s under the sp10mk II fit this description of stable as well based on my experience.
I brought up the benefit of leveling and resonances with 3 versus 4 legs. I did not mention stability. So the SP10 design is easy enough to try with 3 SS legs and experiment and see if it could be stable for my definition. Will test it out one day by adding a thread to hold a leg in the front center of the unit.
Based on my experience the commercial isolation devices I have used all seem to come in packages of three (Black Diamond Racing Cones, Symposium Roller Blocks, Mapleshade Heavy Foot Brass Cones, Bear Claw Feet. You did not mention resonances though? What are your thoughts on this ? For example if a three legged design could be stable based on my definition, does it not offer more benefits toward hindering resonances and the resulting structure feedback ? Cheers
Hi Henry the SS legs may look convincing but they sound even more convincing to me especially up against the Jean Nantais Lenco. Same ET arms except one is a 2.5 and the other a 2.0. Same cartridge on both - Empire 4000 DIII Gold. Less is more for legs. The 4 versus 3 legs would mean less travel points for resonances same as the armpod but also easier to level and stay that way. Same with the AT-616 footers only three used. I also base my opinion on the leveling of the three versus four legs with the audio stands I have owned in the past. I have found as the seasons change here if you are using four legged stands you need to check the leveling a couple times of year, and adjust as the house floors shift a bit if you are on a suspended wood frame supported floor.
On your other question - I say structure feedback related based on the process of elimination. The way it sounded before and after I made the changes to only the rack below the TT. I added 3 very heavy maple shade brass cones below the 4 inch Mennonite Maple Slab. Everything else stayed the same. Improve on the isolation you then lessen the amount of structure feedback going into the component. This resulted in cleaner neutral sound. Its my story I am sticking to it. :^)
The SS legs are straight solid stainless steel and do not damp as well as the AT616s. But at the same if you get them on a platform that is isolated well they are going to give you more information from the grooves. At least they do in my room. Its a very mechanical hobby.
I need to qualify the above as well. This was originally happening with the SS legs at over 90 dbs average as registered on my meter sitting in my chair in nearfield. There were no issues below that as the structure feedback was contained I assume, because I could not hear the problem. But obviously it was there. Not till I took it to the next level of resolution did the problem become real for me and noticeable.
I played about 12 lps. Of these maybe four of them were very uncomfortable to listen to - due to the HF with the 801s. Also - My 801s have been set up in the room for a while now. Now with my ESLs they may have all sounded fine still. I say this because all ESLs I have owned I find - tend to roll off more with the HF. They are sweeter sounding. The 801s are a very hard core speaker and more revealing to the source and let you know better than my ESLs if an lp was recorded well or not.
Hi Banquo I have experimented with having my gear outside of the totally closed room the speakers were in. For some reason I felt very uncomfortable not being able to see the gear. At the 2nd location the rack is now in the other room - but it is open with the room the speakers are in. Moving it there solved the structure feedback/skipping issues I was having. A picture can be seen on my second system page. Cheers Chris
You can put the SP10 MK II on a two bricks with an armpod and get good sound. I know I have tried it. It is a testament to the quality component it is. A self contained platter motor unit with no detectable rumble. The sound I was getting from the AT616 footers using it in a nude fashion was excellent. But those footers are very rare and I recently set up a 2nd SP10 at another location. I thought what if I could get the motor hanging in the air and perch the unit on four points. Make the legs more rigid in nature than the AT616 pneumatic footers ? As the sp10 is very low profile I also needed more height for a taller arm pod I was planning . So I designed 5 inch tall, one inch diameter Stainless Steel (SS) legs. Once inch was the largest diameter that would fit and to ensure all legs were the same size.
The SS footers initially were good and bad. Good in that they presented more resolution on about 60% of my lps. Cymbals were clearer and their decay lasted longer, and bass was much tighter. Bad in that some albums now became too bright and unplayable. This was not the case with the AT616 footers. I thought about this. The Stainless Steels Legs are definitely more revealing than the AT-616 footers which definitely have more damping factor in my system. With the recent sound pressure tests I did, they were showing me I believed that I had to improve my rack isolation for my nearfield setup. My speakers are capable of pressurizing my medium sized room with their bass at only 95-100 db. Because of this the SS legs were much more sensitive to structure feedback than the AT-616s. I made changes to the TT rack for more isolation. I also added some oil in the threads that attached the footers to the sp10 top plate for damping. This paid off. All lps now sound great again.
These legs have added 5 lbs to the SP10 overall weight as well. I tried different footers with the SS legs. I settled on rigid brass cones like I use with the arm pod. With the SS legs now I believe the sp10 is no longer being run nude and is now in a minimum plinth as these legs attached rigidly to the top plate, thus leaving the motor/platter free hanging in the air.
I am very happy with the result and will have a second set made for my other SP10 MKII.
Future plans to add some threaded holes in the top plate to only need three SS legs. Technics offset the front left leg by design to allow for the on/off switch.
Hi Nikola I agree - The 2nd location threw a whole new dimension into this problem. I cant bring myself to sell any yet? And I am a sucker for a good deal.
You are a tonearm aficionado so am not surprised with picking out the ET 2.5. I am surprised though that you have never tried an air bearing linear tracker. Maybe because of the overhead constraints? (pumps, tubing, separate room required for the proper pump)
The ET 2.5 is the high maintenance spouse. If that Austrian king u mention chose her I would say he better have servants to set her up for him. It takes I think a stubborn person to own this arm. Space is also required for the special air supply system required to let her breath properly. Other wise she will sound congested on aquarium pumps, and can become edgy in temperament if not set up properly. Until u hear her optimized this way you dont know and it sounds fine. All is not lost. For those that endure and are able satisfy her requirements she will never become boring to live with. In fact you will miss her dearly if not around. Yes I am talking about a tonearm. :^) I personally believe the diamond in the rough here is the Acoustats ? Cheers Chris .
JN Lenco l75 and SP10 MKII/Armpod Impressions Update
I mounted my 2nd ET 2 arm on the Lenco. It is a ET 2.0 version not a 2.5 like the one on the brass armpod. It also does have an upgraded pump. This time a MEDO pump that provides for up to 10 psi at the arm. I regulate that down to 8-9 psi for the ET 2.0 arm.
The ET 2.5 uses an Empire 4000 DIII gold cartridge. I therefore bought a second Empire 4000 DIII Gold cartridge for the other ET arm to make this listening as close as possible.
After one month of waiting the Empire cartridge never showed up. :^(
I was very disappointed about this. I bought another Empire cartridge yesterday. Hoping to receive it soon to start the listening.
I want as much of a level playing field as possible before I provide impressions.
FWIW - I really like that Empire cartridge and for the price will just use it later when the other one finally needs replacing.
Hi Henry This is going to take some time with my summer vacation and family schedules. This Lenco I acquired is essentially the same table that took out Arthur Salvatores Forsell table but mine has the newer better spindle/bearing that is now part of the reference, but the reference table is now a different plinth still according to Jean. A smaller version than mine actually duked it out with a EMT 927 and came out on top in Athens, Greece.
I need to get used to its sound first and have plans on moving my 2nd ET to it as well. If I didnt like what I was hearing early on I would not be going to the trouble of doing this. I will really enjoy this.
The Nude SP10 MKII with the Brass Armpod IS the real deal. RIght now it has an advantage with the ET 2.5 at 19 psi versus the Dv505 on the Lenco to me. The ET has the Empire 4000 diii gold as well. I have tried the AT7V and now the Virtuoso on the Lenco. Ive have also listened to both arms on separate armpods using the SP10 as well. Alignment on the Dynavector is using the supplied Dynavector cartridge jig. I want this comparison to be as close as possible so the reason I want to mount the second ET arm on it and try to find a second Empire cartridge as well.
As a next project I decided to experiment with another tonearm and decided on the Dynavector DV505. Cool looking but more it seems to be a cross between a regular pivot arm and a well not sure its different. The 505 has all the sonic features of the 507 - but is more affordable relatively speaking. The big thing to me is it could be mounted to the top of an armpod very easily.
In parallel to this I had been looking all winter/spring to add an idler drive to experience that idler sound people are talking about. I decided to hunt for a stock Lenco l75 to just hear it with an armpod and then decide what to do about putting just the platter/motor into a structure/plinth afterwards.
Well finding a good stock 60 hz Lenco proved difficult. I am ending up locating the dv 505 tonearm first. But the interesting part is the gentleman selling the arm had it attached to a Jean Nantais Lenco L75 table that was 100lbs and included those options that come on the Reference that is being discussed so much today.
I originally dismissed the table due to its size and cost and the fact it would be difficult to accommodate all but the longest arm on an armpod. My dear ET would need to be mounted to the top of the plinth !
Well - this gentleman was retiring and selling house. Once I purchased the tonearm I was made an offer on the Lenco that was too hard to refuse. I am very bad that way as I see taking a risk like this as not risky at all since reselling it should be easy. Forget the fact I sell very little of what I buy.
So I now have an idler, belt and DD in my stable am very content and will enjoy listening and comparing with different tonearm / cartridge combinations.
To answer your question Yes I have - but first understand that the nude SP10 MKII is only half the puzzle. The other half and I feel bigger influence on the sound is the armpod. As you know a Nude SP10 won't work without an armpod - they go hand in hand. You have to put the tonearm somewhere. Most people do not have ready made armpods available. The concept of armpods is a foreign one and new to most audiophiles. But once they have reviewed it without BIAS they have all come around and agree it makes sense if starting from from scratch to get that tonearm off a plinth with all those resonances.
Is it the only solution - no. Look if someone were to offer me a Dobbins or Albert Porter plinthed SP10 I would jump at the opportunity to test it out and compare. In the meantime I consider myself an average audiophile and have teenagers to put through university and other commitments. My $$ in this crazy hobby need to be spent smartly. Sorry to digress.
Raul talked on Audiogon about the nude sp10 first from what I understand with some kind of armboard he used. But without any pictures it was only theory to me at that point. Halcro (Henry) did a wonderful job with his Nude DD tt project and his armpods on the Nude turntable / Copernican thread - when I read it along with others that is what put me over the top and inspired me to try it. So both of them deserve all the kudos for this.
My SP10 was in a heavy plinth at the time. You can see a picture of it on my system page. I was happy with the sound. But as anybody in this hobby can attest we get bored and need to have active projects.
Everyone is so used to putting everything into a plinth - they are conditioned. I was no different and followed the same path. My plinth was about 60 pounds and consisted of 6 layers of birch ply and one layer of mdf. There was also a thin sheet of aluminium in the middle. It sounded very good to me. Different but just as good as my TNT. The SP10 had much better pace and timing. It never needed tinkering with. Buy once I took the SP10 out of the plinth to experiment and isolated it along with the tonearm on an armpod there was no going back. The sound came alive.
The SP10 worked well with all of the 3 footers I tried. BDR cones, Mapleshade brass footers and my current AT 616 footers. But also equally important is to ensure the shelf it sits on is well isolated as well. What I am saying applies to the Sp10 MKII only. The MKIII has too much torque to be used this way. If I had a MKIII, I would build a proper structure to contain it ONLY and also use an armpod with it. I believe the top of the line Kenwood and Denons can be used with nude three footers as well , and we know from the Copernican thread that the JVC Victor also works well this way.
The Nude SP10 MkII is a truly excellent platter/drive system. Thats all I need it for - its drive and accuracy. Very neutral sound in the NUDE.
I have since purchased a second SP10 MKII for my other location. It is being brought up to spec. I hope to receive it in a couple of weeks and have it running shortly following that. It will also be run NUDE on 3 feet and an armpod. Will post pics.
Hi AudioB. Having as much weight as possible keeps pod sturdy and has never hurt the sound for me. Working with brass is really easy when drilling holes. Have not worked with slate but would be careful does it split easier ? I found a hardwood top plate like maple or oak gives a warmer tone in my system. If your tonearm mounts on top like my VPI or ET I would eliminate that top plate all together and mount the tonearm right on top of pod. Simple less layers. You can always add a top plate later.
Hi Vernneal - the last two years speakers have been a very slippery slope for me. They take up a lot of real estate are difficult to hide. My hobby passion has shifted over the years It seems to work in cycles (amps to preamps to TTs , etc ) Thanks for the offer for a swap. At this point in time if speakers leave the house - peace will be maintained here. But if more come in to replace them especially floor standers I will probably have pushed my wife over the top. I sense something really bad might happen to me :( .
I might be able to sneak in a small monitor though . just kidding. Its easy to sneak in amps/preamps they all look the same to my wife.
I actually snuck in my Acoustat 3s with my teenage son into my basement sound room. I paid him off to not say anything teenagers are bad that way. He is the one that filmed the symposium rollerblock jrs. experiment video on my blackberry. My wife didnt notice the small black Acoustat doors in the sound room till a month later.
Hi Audioblazer - thanks for your nice comments. Please after completing your armpod, email me any comments on how to improve the instructions so they can be documented for others. Also please send me a picture of your armpod !
I found something like this DIY armpod project brought audio satisfaction to a different level for me - you are part of the reason that your system sounds better.
Hi Henry - I will be posting impressions on the Copernican thread soon. I need another good listening session to confirm some things. I had a good listening session last weekend. I heard some things when listening nearfield that quite frankly startled me out of my chair by a couple of inches a few times. I need to hear it one more time next weekend when back home.
Version one armpod was lighter by only a few lbs but the weight was dispersed over an area of 4 inches by 1 foot. The brass is heavier and the weight contained within 4 inches. With the rigid coupling this has improved things. Considering how easy it is to set up with a surface mount tonearm - its big yes recommendation to try out.
Thank you Sympaticonorm - I was starting to think I had a bit of a problem. Bearing my soul here has helped me to realize I am not alone and finding support from you guys is comforting. I could be doing much worse things :)
Ths364 - I am careful with where I keep the speakers not being used. I have read that having idle cone speakers in a room with other speakers playing is not a good idea as the idle drivers can act as resonators. If space is a problem it suggested to turn on the amp to them with no signal to lock the drivers.
