This is a collection of equipment (note how I dont call it a system!), the purpose of which was for me to sample as much as possible prior to settling down to equipment I can use in a final room I am building with Rives. Needless to say, I ended up getting deeper and deeper in this, learning that reviews are typically falwed because (i) reviewers have specific motives, (ii) they dont generally have very good systems, and (iii) no system is perfect and therefore personal preferences matter a lot.
The room is by no means great but it is custom designed and measured. It works quite well, even though these speakers need more room to breathe.
Happy to answer questions about my experience with all this equipment, all of which is quite excellent in its own way. I have some on order which I will add when the time comes.
Other equipment I have owned include:
-Tenor 300hp
-MBL 9011 monos
-MBL 6010D preamp
-VTL 7.5 mk i and ii
-Audio Research Ref 3 preamp
-BAT 75se
-Other
UPDATE: Moved to new room, much more spacious and finally allowing me to sit within the prescribed distance for driver integration. Also, I cleaned up somewhat the amp list: I now use the Wavac 833 mkii (4 box) and for solid state the Class A Gryphon Colosseum Solos. Added to the preamps is the Soulution. All cables are Jorma Prime including an 8m length xlr. Power cords being changed all to Valhalla. Here you also see an attempt to test the continuum turntable through a wavac phono. The sound of the system has ameliorated appreciably and it is now starting to be a system after all. Very happy with it.
Kyyuan, actually I dont and I have been wondering about the system 9. I have heard things second hand which are not super positive, including some early runs having reliability problems. However, I dont have first hand experience so I should refrain. The only experience I had was the idock which worked quite well in my system. Best, Michael
10ft tall cellos, haha, I wonder what multi driver speakers you have been listening to. Not my experience. In fact, these matters are more room than speaker dependent. By moving the upper diffuser to a vertical rather than horizontal position I can make cellos be taller than Yao Ming, but that would apply to any speaker I ve had in the room. You are definitely right that some multi driver speakers need a lot of room, simply for the drivers to integrate. The Poseidons are actually very directional so the room may not be as important for that but in terms of driver integration you need about 4 meters from the speaker (according to gryphon 5 meters) for the drivers to even integrate.
As you know, I ve obviously have had the Vitus with Marten ceramics. I unfortunately fall in the category of people who dont like ceramic designs, I think I can hear their sonic character in pretty much any design. That could be psychoacoustic but either way they dont do it for me.
In any event, the reason why I feel somewhat strongly about the characteristics of the equipment I reviewed here is that I have used them almost all at the same time and with different room and speaker combinations. Although matching does matter, I find that the character comes through. The only material limitation in my reviews is that the Poseidons are self powered below 300hz so that presents a very different load to the amps than a full range speaker.
On the AFL1, I assume you are using your analogue XLRs? Do you know if there is a digital Odin in the making? I have not tried the Jorma digital but I dont think it carried the Prime designation. So for now I use valhallas which are good but I am not sure if better is available as I have not experimented much.
Alex, why dont you come over later this month if you are around and we can share some listening.
i'm not pro-Vitus, anti-Gryphon/Krell or anything like that (this hobby is ultimately abt preference & synergy). i've had the pleasure of hearing Gryphon stuff on several occasions & would categorize their speakers as being on the warm side of neutral, while their components are generally transparent & fairly fast (in terms of transients). this makes them a rather good match to one another.
in this regard, Vitus components are prob not the best match for yr speakers (unless you hv a pref for warm & slow sound) & likewise for Gryphon components with most ceramic-based speakers (unless one has a pref for thin & fast sound). that doesn't make one product better than the other... they're just voiced differently.
i too listen to a fair amt of classical music (with a pref for orchestral over chamber) & know what you mean abt a sense of scale. this is almost always better reproduced by large multi-driver speakers. the prob is: (a) one needs a fairly large space to house large speakers (w/out them sounding constrained); & (b) large speakers tends to exaggerate smaller scale / more intimate recordings such that everything sounds "larger than life" (i.e. violins sound like they're 5ft long, cellos sound like they're 10ft tall, etc.). nothing is perfect & we all make compromises (even if we were to attend concerts/live performances, performers will usually not perform the very song we wish to hear at that very moment, or we may not get to sit in our favorite seats, or sit next to someone noisy/annoying, etc.).
re. Prime vs. Odin - yes i've also got both & generally prefer the Primes (this is of course extrmely subjective). the only run i've preferred the Odin is btw the Weiss AFI1 & my DAC. i generally agree with yr opinion that Odins are excellent on source components whereby they seem to preseve so much micro/ambient signals.
Amir, to answer your question, I listen to everything but mostly classical and some sorts of Jazz. I love classical but before the Gryphon Poseidons, I could not listen to it because I had no speaker that could come close to the necessary sense of scale and dynamics for good classical listening. What these speakers have done is that they allow me to listen to what I really prefer, not what just would sound better in the system.
I prefer the wavac sound over everything else, driving my speakers above 300hz. Then, I prefer the Gryphon Solos over Krells or anything else I have heard. I can see how one can make the case for the Goldmund 2500 (holographic imaging) but I find they may tend to eat into the mid range a bit to give their sense of detail. I know this also because I have the benefit of being able to experiment with the very high quality Accuphase equalizers that allow me to simulate various characteristics by playing around with the curve, real time.
Alex, comparing the Odins to the Jorma Prime is not subjective. The Primes are better. Hehe....just kidding. I actually prefer my Odin from the phono to the preamp but (surprisingly) not in my digital chain.... Btw, my whole system is on Jorma primes now with secondary cables being Valhallas (power I mean). Note the power Jormas need 500h to break in so daisy chain them to your refrigerator for 2-3 weeks...
Alexsee you are right, I agree our tastes differ and I think even some systems are better with some music. if i say i like vitus i should add krell evo sound maybe more impressive than vitus with rock music and i prefer vitus on musics that i listen more.
our world is a place for all tastes and each person just have his place and his ideas. I do not like to impose my ideas to others. :)
the only thing that i stress is result of listening in long term. I just say micro linearity and emotion have more satisfaction factor in long listening term.
you guys are having too much fun... mind if i chime in? i've also owned most of the amps you guys are talking abt (i presently use the Vitus SM101 mk2, previously owned Goldmund Telos 400, several Krell amps, heard the Gryphon Solos in a full Gryphon system, tried FM411 as well as several other highly regarded amps, also own & tried Kondo Ongaku in same system, etc.). yes, some amps appear to handle transients better, others are able to portray better tonal balance & harmonic nuance... you both make excellent pts, but as you both agree - this is all *very* subjective (like debating if Nordost Odin or Jorma Prime is better).
there are certain aspects i prefer with SS + conventional speakers, but if it were purely abt music enjoyment, i'd opt for a SET + high efficiency speaker (i know some of you will disagree with me on this, but high powered SETs + conventional speakers just ain't the same). unfortunately, such setups are not always very practical (particularly if one has very young children in the household).
anyway this is just my 2 cents worth... (you guys obviously know what you want, so don't mind my babble).
Thanks Mihalis we know many loudspeaker designers design their speaker with these ss amplifiers that sound exaggerated and unnatural. we can not say vitus should sound dynamic in combination with many speakers. if speaker be slow we need a exaggerated dynamic amplifier and if vitus seems slow in combination with these slow speakers we can not say vitus is slow.
I think your Gryphon Colosseums is more like vitus and less like krell evo. you know gryphon speakers are faster and more dynamic than many dynamic driver speakers and this shows gryphon match their class a design amplifiers (that seems to sound a little slower than class a/b design) with a faster loudspeaker. I say we can change the sense of slowness with pairing a match loudspeaker and in my idea macro parameters will be controlled by careful matching. I say vitus give you micro linearity that krell and fm and soulution can not give. we can not access micro linearity with matching. we can not find emotion in sound of FM Acoustics with pairing it with a special speaker but we can improve sense of speed in vitus sound by matching it with a proper speaker. we know good SET tube amplifiers need careful matching for sounding good in macro parameters. we can not say SET's like Audio Note Ongaku are slow and soft. we should change macro parameters with considering to other parameters.
I should say again Vitus in my idea is not like other ss design that like speed, resolution and sense of neutrality. vitus focused on emotion and beauty of music and we can not access these parameters with other impressive designs like krell evo one or FM Acoustics.
about power conditioner i think all conditioners will compress dynamic even AC generators but increase color and contrast of music. matching is in both domain, sound and electronics. why a high power solidstate that is electronic match of high sensitivity horn can not sound good with horn? I stress again that in my idea vitus has not coloration.
it seems that there is long road for getting common ground :)
just test one thing, what do you prefer in long listening session, class a gryphon that seems slower or krell evo one that seems to be more dynamic?
Amir, I appreciate your comments here and keep them coming. My only objection is in the part of your note where you are making assumptions about the listener, not the equipment. I listen to a ton of live, acoustic, and amplified music and I believe I have a reasonably good sense of what is real and what is not. Our difference of opinion may be also related to the version of the Vitus. There was a massive change amongst the models and I think that is because the earlier ones were not up to the level of the cost.
You make some other points I should address: I totally disagree with the view that the right power conditioning compresses dynamics. It just doesnt. It cleans the signal which in 90% of homes is crap (unless dedicated) and in many cases, regenerators can actually store power and increase dynamics. Having said that, I never listened to the Vitus with power conditioning.
Also the point that Vitus must be paired with specific speakers is in my opinion an indication something is wrong. I take the point for power but in general good amps should be able to perform with a variety of speakers. Of course the relationship is important but only where it is a matter of electrical matching, not sound colorations and mixing and matching.
Digital room correction is a long story. I dont need it in my current room but in lesser rooms it is absolutely paramount, in my opinion. It theoretically can cause a number of issues and so one has to listen for themselves to assert if these apply in practice also.
Again, I appreciate the debate and I dont suggest that I know what I am talking about, just that I know what I think I hear ;-)
I should say i listened to Vitus SS-101 MKII Signature and never listened to SL-100 SM-100 series.
It seems that macro dynamic and speed is a important factor to you and you think reality is dependent of these factors.
I think in long listening term this parameter is not so important and musicality is less dependent to macro parameters. musicality is dependent more to micro linearity and micro dynamic.
I agree in equal condition krell seems to sound faster and more dymanic and vitus seems to sound slower and fuller but i stress again in my idea vitus is not slow , exaggerated sound will create illusion of speed and dynamic. Audio is a relative world and our ideas is so dependent to our habits. listening to exaggerated sound without harmony in long term will effect on our judgment. Vitus is slower in macro than krell but it do not means real sound is like krell sound.
krell and many other ss can not give us harmonic integrity of vitus. one of the most important factor of a real sound is it's harmonic integrity. I recommend you to listen to vitus without any AC conditioner and with removing Accuphase Digital room corection. make a direct cable from AC line and let sound be more dynamic. another thing is finding a good place for loudspeaker for improving dynamic and flow. http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=994#994
I stress again vitus should pair with a match speaker and in my idea vitus does not have coloration , krell evo make illusion of more neutrality and vitus sound is more real if you define reality as is in my mind.
listen to dcs scarlatti with fm acoustics and yg acoustics sound. it will be more real than your system if we define reality as is in your mind. after 6 month you sense you need to upgrade. if krell or fm or soulution are more real then we should not like to upgrade them in long term but in my idea krell evo one is not a better choice than vitus for long listening term.
excuse me if i stressed so on my idea, i do not like make a discussion that is out of readers patine. enjoy listening regards Amir
Unfortunately the scarlatti did not work well in my system. We could not lock it in 192 frequencies and the mac did not even manage to connect through usb. So we ended up using my Weiss AFL1 interface (maybe one of the very best) into XLR digital to the scarlatti plus clock. That, I compared with my own Accuphase DC801 and the Medea and DAC1 mk2 DACs. The rest of the system included wavac amps, jorma prime and odin cables and wavac preamp. I played exclusively hi res aiff files through itunes, firewire, afl1.
The Weiss dacs are wonderful but maybe the designs need to be updated a bit. Their impressive resolution is now matched and bested by the Accuphase and Scarlatti. And they lack in other characteristics. Dont get me wrong, these are world class DACs but I think the other two are more impressive.
I did prefer the DAC1 to the medea. It is a bit more forward, instruments project closer to the listener (a la EMM but without the hi fi'ish sound EMM sometimes produces). Also it is a very dynamic DAC and in that regard maybe the better of them all. At its price, it is a serious contender.
The battle is down to the scarlatti and DC801 in my opinion, and the two offer different strenghts. I wish we had done a better job with connections to really give the scarlatti a fair chance, so maybe the comparison was unfair. Having said that running these two dacs into 96 audio from the AFL1, the Scarlatti was slightly more detailed and demonstrably more "in control" of the music. Maybe there was slightly more depth and on some tracks, especially with single instruments or voices, they did sound a bit closer to my analogue sound from the continuum (although not close enough to compare.) Dynamics are first rate all around.
The DC801 also has extreme resolution but it sounds slightly different, smoother than the other DACs here. And what it is ahead of the rest, head and shoulders, is air. When switching to this DAC one gets a sense of space around the instruments which makes the sound more believable. It does not have the control of the scarlatti and I suspect that in longer listening sessions the scarlatti has the potential to be the better one. However, as torn as i was about the choice, the person next to me told me he liked the accuphase more, period. He called it smoother and more "refined".
I ll try to get the scarlatti back for good and spend more time comparing these two. either way, all 4 DACs are outstanding, some of the best out there. The Medea will probably perform best with the Jason, whereas the DAC1 is an outstanding choice. Having said that, the DC801 in Japan costs about 8k new, so from a value for money basis, it is the best I have heard.
Amir, lets agree to disagree, that is what is fun about this. I actually did own Marten Coltranes and I thought the combination was ok, although not dynamic enough to resemble reality. I think they combined well because they are both, in my humble opinion, flawed: the colorations of the Vitus combined well with the lean sound of the Coltranes. I did use the Vitus with their own cables and with Jormas which are used for the design of the Coltranes. Some dealers combine these brands and so have some audiophiles who followed that advice. It is a good result but by no means a match for the far superior products from Gryphon and Krell. I do agree with your comments early in the email about the perception of too much resolution.
I do repeat that the Vitus did have a coloration that I actually liked a lot. The sound was more full bodied. That changed with the newer models so my comments are one version back for the amps at least.
Thanks Mihalis for care I should say in macro parameters like sense of speed/slowness or resolution or other factors that come at first view we should consider matching. balancing macro parameters are so dependent to system matching and i think vitus with a speaker like marten design and fine cable select and a match source can improve that parameters that you like be OK in sound. i stress again that many sound we hear like sense of high resolution are not real because they do not give us color and harmony of sound. real sound in nature is more toward vitus sound and do not create illusion of hyper detail. exaggerated sense of detail or dynamic can not give us good result in long listening term. we know FM Acoustics is so better if we use all FM system with their cables and i'm sure your Gryphon system will sound better at macro when you use all gryphon components.
Vitus need long break-in time and need careful matching.
I listened to krell evo one/two with dcs scarlatti and wilson 8 and i think krell is a good ss design but it was not in the league of vitus in micro linearity, emotion and full harmonic rendering. i never listened to gryphon colosseums but their lower level models were not in the league of vitus.
Hmm, Amir, the Vitus amps I had definitely had "color". They were too slow and flawed in my opinion. Very rich sound and for some I am sure a preference, but not real. The newer models seem to have gotten over that and the preamp was therefore a step towards that direction. At the same time, by having lost this special characteristic, they are now competing with the best for reality rather than pleasure. I found the soulution pre to have the advantage, especially with transients and attacks. But the Vitus preamp I had was outstanding, so this could come down to system matching, preferences etc. I cant agree that it is the "only" ss design. I find other class a such as the gryphon colosseums are just outstanding and so was the Krell evo one which in my experience was superior to the FMs and the sound was very similar.
On another note, digital shootout here. Accuphase DC801, Weiss DAC1mk2, Weiss DAC2, Weiss Medea, DCS Scarlatti, all though hi res (incl 192s) MacBook... I will report soon.
Thanks Mihalis audio is a relative world and if we listen to a lean sound with illusion of huge detail then after listening vitus we think it's sound have less detail. i think this is wrong and in my idea the most natural component is the least attention to his sound component but with color, life and beauty. I think vitus is less impressive that other like krell evo one and soulution because it's sound call no attention to himself and it's sound help we forget the system. in my idea goldmund and soulution and other high power designs can not transfer full harmonic structure of sound. vitus is not in the league of top SET designs like Audio note in full harmonic rendering but it's the only ss design that try to give us color, decay and micro linearity. regards Amir
Well, I must say that although some similarities exist in the sound of similar technical designs, I dont find the very high end to be that consistent. for example, the transparency of Gryphon's Mirage is only equalled by the wavac and no other. But in that regard, they are extremely similar and superior to both the soulution and the vitus. The soulution was faster. I hate this term because it usually means there is a distortion but here i am trying to say that i found the music to not be slower than i experience it to be in real life. I got that a little bit with the vitus. Also, the Soulution was more detailed. Having said that, I can definitely see how one might not place these at the highest level of importance and consider the Vitus as somewhat more approachable and true to the recording. I did not spend that much time with either as the Mirage and Wavac were far more engaging in my system. The difference is that I target equipment that does not draw my attention to something. The Soulution and Telos' resolution sometimes draws attention (I think at the expense of some mid range information), and even the mighty FM at the end of the day did color the sound more than what I am listening to now. For emotion of sound and linearity, try the Gryphon Colosseums which are wonderful. And they are Class A, so they might satisfy some of the tube preferences that people might have (not all!)
about comparison of two components we need good condition and we should match each component. I never listened to soulution but i do not think it be emotional. I think Vitus has emotional sound and in my idea is better that other ss designs. in ss design we need to improve micro linearity, decay and emotion of sound. high power amplifiers like soulution and goldmund can not move in this line. regards Amir
Bflowers, you know, these idioms tend to be used a bit too much. First of all, I am not quite sure about soulution as I have not had extensive listening with the amps. Therefore, I dont know if they are filling spots in their line or really have managed to keep consistency (I point to the wonderful goldmund who seem to have too many designs, too many designers and generally no clear consistency in their products through the years.) Soulution are very good, and their digital measure amazingly well (albeit at a price.) The preamp was excellent, better than the vitus sl101 but in my view not as good in general as the wavac (and I would argue the gryphon mirage.) The sound from soulution in general sounds slightly lean to me, a bit like the goldmunds. You would not notice that necessarily but if you are comparing them with a lot of other equipment, the character is there. They dont carry the dryness that some of teh goldmunds do. I compared them to the GDs because I dont think the Soulution sound anything like class a or tube amps, so I dont think they do blurr lines. I find these lines are very confusing as designs can cause big differences, despite some of the recurring characteristics. If you want to spend the money, I do think you should listen to them. They seem to be well made (although my preamp did have a problem at first and had to be sent back), cool looking, very good sounding; but like with everything else, dont expect these are somehow going to solve all your needs... I do wonder about the digital though, basically no jitter!
Can you provide some insight into how the Soulution products compare with other solid state and tube products you have used. These have been described as blurring the line between tube and transistor. Thanks in advance for your reply.
Kodg, maybe you are referring to either the shunyata power cords (black), or the synergistic reserch xlr (gray) which is very thick. I have been using Jorma prime power and interconnects on everything since then, and I am going to add an Odin or two. Some Valhalla power cords also, which I think is excellent value for money in the used market. You have to pay a lot to get better than that. However, I find I can identify power cord differences more clearly than that with interconnects. This may be system specific but it is an experienced shared by some audiophiles I speak to.
PH, I think I have reported on that earlier in the forum. On one end I would put wavac which is super transparent, very believable, fast (in a realistic way--ie not slow), and with high resolution. Then on the other end, the Telos which is very fast (maybe too fast?), has incredible holographic and solid imaging, a lot of detail, and maybe slightly more dry. If you like complex classical, it may be for you. In between I would place FM acoustics and Gryphon Colosseums, both different but more fluid sstate designs, probably because of their class a circuit, pure or not.
