This is a collection of equipment (note how I dont call it a system!), the purpose of which was for me to sample as much as possible prior to settling down to equipment I can use in a final room I am building with Rives. Needless to say, I ended up getting deeper and deeper in this, learning that reviews are typically falwed because (i) reviewers have specific motives, (ii) they dont generally have very good systems, and (iii) no system is perfect and therefore personal preferences matter a lot.
The room is by no means great but it is custom designed and measured. It works quite well, even though these speakers need more room to breathe.
Happy to answer questions about my experience with all this equipment, all of which is quite excellent in its own way. I have some on order which I will add when the time comes.
Other equipment I have owned include:
-Tenor 300hp
-MBL 9011 monos
-MBL 6010D preamp
-VTL 7.5 mk i and ii
-Audio Research Ref 3 preamp
-BAT 75se
-Other
UPDATE: Moved to new room, much more spacious and finally allowing me to sit within the prescribed distance for driver integration. Also, I cleaned up somewhat the amp list: I now use the Wavac 833 mkii (4 box) and for solid state the Class A Gryphon Colosseum Solos. Added to the preamps is the Soulution. All cables are Jorma Prime including an 8m length xlr. Power cords being changed all to Valhalla. Here you also see an attempt to test the continuum turntable through a wavac phono. The sound of the system has ameliorated appreciably and it is now starting to be a system after all. Very happy with it.
Changster you are not welcome in this forum. For everyone's benefit, this guy strung me along to buy my Gryphons, agreed repeatedly to the sale and after having me waste time and spend money to have them professionally packed and ready to go, he pulled out of the deal using all sorts of lies. I offered him the amps with a free upgrade of the carbon fibre panels, and when I got a competing bid which was slightly lower, I reduced the price on my own as a courtesy because I told him I would sell him at a price I can sell to someone else. Changster the gangster is not someone we want on audiogon and in our discussions. This happened a couple of days ago so to write here is adding insult to injury, and proves this guy is a moron!
Fernando, please keep us posted here. There is a lack of good lamm perspective and as I said I do respect the equipment. Also, from the various reviewers, I also respect Fremmer's articles in general. Maybe he is a bit more relaxed due to lack of digital glare and harshness when listening whilst he writes?
I ll never forget when I listened to the Magico M6 in CES a couple of years back. It sounded horrible because of the terrible room (two level tiny room with zero treatment). Horrible. I then listened to it at an amazing room in Boston and it was completely different. And yet, in CES, one very well respected reviewer who was there at the same time ended up writing this was the best system he had ever heard etc etc. Insane....And so, Magico increased their prices by a huge % in the last year or two, partly due to good performance (dont get me wrong, I generally like their products and quality) but mostly because of the resulting hype. In the meantime, equally amazing speakers like the Rockport Altair got very little love.
Its how you play the game, I guess. Happy to watch it from the sidelines instead and enjoy the music.
That was really interesting Michael, i also discarded some large ammount of reviewers positions along the road, and trust just a few including Art and Gillet nowadays.
I just heard the Lamm room with - yes - Wilson, sounded better than I expected. Interestingly enough I found Fremer the three times I returned to the room.
I might follow the Lamm route unless something out from Halcro, Boulder or Burmester crosses my life along the road... That's how it works for me.
Thanks again for sharing your knowledfe and experiences here.
Fernando, I did own the Lamm 1.2rerefence amp. I was impressed by its quality of built. I was not a fan of the sound that I would describe as a wall of music coming at you. At the time, I think I was playing them with Alto Utopia Bes and I had a pair of the problematic but wonderful sounding Tenor 300hp which was far superior sonically and far inferior quality-wise (they all eventually blew up.)
But the reality is that I never gave the Lamm its fair share of attention and that is a story that connects me back to my disgust (in this case) for reviews and specifically in this case Stereophile. Here is what happened. The reviewer played them with the VTL7.5 preamp and gave the Lamms a glowing review. That was back in the day when I used to listen to reviews. So I bought the Lamms to play with my VTL 7.5, only to find out that they are gain incompatible and the result is noise that you can hear from your speakers from the other room. The Altos are not tough to drive but they are close to average, so not pointing this out was, in my opinion, misleading. In fact, when I did a better scan of the tests on the net, I found that one of the sites (positivefeedback or enjoythemusic, when they were more independent) pointed out this very issue in a whole paragraph, both for these two specific pieces of equipment as much as others. Atkinson claimed in his response to me that he had pointed this out in his test. He had, in a way that glossed over it, in my opinion. Amazing...
This also reminds me of the Tenor situation. The 300hp was a flawed design. All the units more or less blew up at some point, as confirmed by the designer himself who then, after bankruptcy, moved to a company in canada and offered expensive fixes to the equipment. When Tenor opened again and now produces a very expensive model (which claims to be very different than the 300hp, I ll leave you to decide that, the box looks almost identical) Stereophile run a half pager report on it. They gave great accolades for the new Tenor and mentioned that it was a more advanced design than the old Tenor OTL amps which were a 75W favorite for many. NO MENTION OF THE 300HP which is clearly the predecessor (both hybrid designs looking identical from the outside). Not even a peak about the problems of this equipment! I emailed Atkinson who this time did not reply but the next morning I got a reply from the new owner of Tenor!! Very nice guy and I am sure trying to make this work. But I find so disappointing that Stereophile missled by omission. There is zero doubt that they should have said the 350hp is a new design (if it is) building on (or fixing the problems of) the older 300hp. The 75W all tube non hybrid OTL was irrelevant. By the way, I have a friend here who did send his 300hp for an expensive fix and it blew up again when it returned. He would probably use more forceful words than "disappointed".
And on the nice VTL 7.5? I always found it too noisy. And within a year and a half, VTL announced an "upgrade" which to the day I am convinced was just a fix of the noise of the first one (which no one pointed out except for other owners). I could be wrong of course but I did upgrade mine and didnt like the sound of the new one so I sold it. But I loved the Stereophile review which said something to the effect: the first VTL 7.5 was perfect and this one is more perfect! This time Atkinson responded mainly by passing on the discussion to the reviewer who clearly did not have significant experience with very high end systems and therefore should have refrained from such statements or comparisons with the preamps that are truly best of the best like the wavac, soulution, gryphon, boulder, etc (which also cost a lot more.)
Anyway, how about that for an unsolicited rant against rogue reviews! As for Lamm, I actually am intrigued to go back and listen. Their designs are well regarded, their quality is excellent, and their new top of the line models are very interesting (amp and preamp.) If they came up with a reference phono I d probably give it a shot. If only they stopped playing them with Wilsons, I d go to a show and listen!!
Jon, hehe, you caught me. You d be surprised to hear that I am more balanced in my view these days, after having added a DCS scarlatti system (and using hi res downloads, not disc.)
On the sound, I think vinyl has its advantages and disadvantages but some obvious ones are microdynamics, lack of grain and sometimes the "continuuousness" of the music which only the best digital can get close to. On the other hand, I find that great digital narrows the gap so close that I am starting to wonder if transports are the villain. Using a mac into firewire or USB dacs is a significant improvement, to my ear, from some of the best transports. And note that I am still using a computer, which is suboptimal. Try SSDs through a non computer based system and I am quite sure the gap will be inaudible, or that each format will offer strengths and weaknesses.
So why then is there such a following. I think it has to be the experience. Flipping tracks on the mac is something that is so easy that it is almost hard to keep yourself from focusing on the process and not the music. With vinyl, you spend so much time getting the music going that once you sit down, you really listen. Also, vinyl opens you up to another large list of recordings, some amazing and not available with digital.
But I will say that in general, with best recordings, I find that vinyl focuses me on the music whereas digital impresses me with teh reproduction of details in the music, such as a specific instrument. Finally, my experience (not necessarily general consensus) is that there are certain aspects of bass that I can only hear reproduced really well with my vinyl recordings, but this could also be a result of these recordings.
I ll say this to muddy the water further. I was listening to an amazing piano recording the other day through the continuum turntable. I thought it was almost too good, very closely miked, impressing me with each note but not necessarily letting me pay attention to the music itself. Turns out, it was a digital recording on vinyl!
Anyway, at most reasonable cost levels, I would guess that a nice collection of hi res audio through a mac or pc and into a good firewire or usb dac will produce easier and better results. If you have the time and interest, though, you should add vinyl because it is a fundamental part of the hobby.
Finally, if you read closely you will know that I have not hidden my lack of respect for the majority of large publications and reviews. However, one of the very best summaries on the subject was presented by the Absolute Sound about 5-6 months ago when they had a special on vinyl. There was one article, I think the introduction, by the editor, which was outstanding and completely describes the differences, pluses and minuses of each format. When they dont review actual equipment, they can be helpful! I would encourage you to seek that article out (I couldnt find it here) to get a better answer to your question than I gave above.
I am now trying a Lamm LL2/ML1.1 combo and - in my system - made a great match with my Guarneri's and the rest of the system.. Lamm sound is very neutral, dynamic, uncoloured and music comes from a very silent background - great stuff!
I do not recall reading Lamm in your vast equipment reports here (but I might be wrong),, any word on Lamm from your side?
It took me all evening reading through 189 posts... I am a newbie to audio. I will probably never touch or be able to hear that level of sound in my life. Still, it was very educational and sure broaden my horizon ;o)
One thing gave me a big smile though... at first, you said you would never touch vinyl, but later on you tried vinyl and it seems like you fell in love with it.
1. What made you try vinyl?
2. How long did it take you to convince vinyl is better? (or perhaps you are still comparing?)
3. Could you elaborate in detail how they differ from digital?
4. It may sound stupid... but do you think our soul/spirit might prefer analog over digital source?
5. Are CD vs LP differs more than solid vs tube amp?
6. What is your better half's (and better ear, you said) opinion on vinyl?
Thanks for your thoughtful advice and teachings, it has been a wonderful evening...
I like what you mentioned about reviews and it really does come down to personal preference. I am with ya. Great system and setup! I can see you have put a lot of time into it.
Gordon, I have not. They have an outstanding reputation in Japan but for some reason I didnt think they compete at the very high end. This may not be true as their class a designs are excellent. Their built quality is impeccable. At Japan prices, I do think that one looking at that price range should consider their class a amp. Not sure about the preamp, never heard it outside shows.
Hi Jose. That is quite a system you have there. Wilsons are not my favorites but I certainly understand the appeal of the alexandria. I am a fan of the Krells you own and obviously have myself Accuphase.
For Accuphase, depending on the system you have, I would use their cat cables. They allow higher sampling and dont cost much. I may be missing something as you seem to need digital cables but I have not needed them myself as I run it all through the cat connections.
On Power cables, my views are listed earlier here. I cant speak for the specific relationship with the gear here but I have found that the Jorma Primes are my preference. I have not had the Odin power at home so I dont know, but I prefer the Jorma interconnects which I think are the very best I ve ever auditioned in my system.
As for power, that is impossible to advise on remotely. It is however very important. You need to first look for hums and if you have them, follow the various options given on the net articles to get rid of them. Also, do your best to get clean power to your amps. Draw a direct line if you can, and if not, consider power cleaners and regenerators. The issue with the Krell might be that they draw a lot of power but I would definitely go for regeneration on the front end. I have not heard any compression of dynamics and the new models seem to have ample power reserve.
Thanks for having started one of the most interesting debates on audio available on the web...
Please, I ask for your seasoned advice - I've got a system which comprises the Alexandria's Series II from Wilson Audio, top-end Accuphase digital gear and Krell Evolution's, preamp and amp. Analog cabling is Transparent throughout and the amplification units make use of original AC cables.
I'd like to ask your opinion please, on the best cables to be used at all positions in general terms, but more specifically which AC cables you'd use with the Krell's as well as recommendations for digital cables (for the Accuphase) and ideal AC powerline specifications, including which equipment should be grounded and which shouldn't.
I thank you very much for your kind advice, awaiting your reply !
Aaron, I would like to refrain from a full account at this point as the situation is still pending. What I can say is that the problems were well beyond what you describe and, despite immediate replacements, new significant esthetic problems came up, raising serious concerns on my part about their quality control, or lack thereof. I cant report positively on the sound of the table without also reporting on these. But Continuum is certainly trying to fix things and I would like to offer them one final chance before I have to go "all out" on this. When and if I do, you will be stunned by what I have been subjected to. And this is coming from someone who is a big fan of the sound and a big fan of small companies who are trying to survive in audio.
I also liked EMM, for example, until after 4-5 products with all sorts of problems, I gave up. There is something about a $150k ttable that needs to inspire confidence in quality control and precision. the same applies, in my opinion, to a $2,000 ttable.
Unfortuantely this has been a major disappointment and frankly despite the sound quality I would happily get a refund and wait for the new rockport or something. It is that bad...
Great to hear that the Caliburn is performing at such a high level. Can you elaborate further on the cosmetic flaws you mentioned? I know that the proprietry magnesium alloy used by Continuum is very difficult to cast and finish so perhaps this explains some of your concerns?
The system has changed a bit, which is relevant for answering your question on Jorma Primes. I now have received the Continuum Caliburn and I have replaced my digital preference with a scarlatti system run directly through high def audio from my mac. Both are what I would call discontinuities in my system: the Continuum is just amazing and it sounds like nothing else ever in my system. I will try to elaborate on that when I get more time. At the same time, it has disappointed with various cosmetic flaws which are unacceptable. The Scarlatti is also an improvement although in extensive a-b tests vs the Accuphase, I am not as sure yet. I think it beats it with dynamics, especially micro, but I need to figure this out further.
Everything in cables is now Jorma Prime. I have about 10 power cords and the interconnects are Prime, except for one Odin. I dont think the Jorma Prime should be compared to the Valhalla, there is no comparison. With the Odin, my preference is for the Jorma on every single situation except for transformer to phono. I think the Odin beats it there and it might be because my Odin is 1m and the Jormas start at 1.5m. Short wins the day for that type of connection. I find the Odin to be a bit "softer" in its micro resolution, whereas the Jorma is more "sparkly" and effervescent in a good way. I know this stuff means little and I would be laughing if I read it myself. But we are talking about cables here and frankly the differences are tiny if noticeable. I do find that power cords tend to imprint character more and especially, in my system, with the phono and digital fronts.
The magic bullet may be because this is a big company who pays a lot of advertising. Clearly it is a great cable but for my money, the Prime is ahead of it and costs much less too. I just ordered the Jorma digital and will call it a day in that respect.
Fernando, I very much like Jadis. Interestingly, a dealer has a combo of a Jadis pre with the Colosseum Solo from Gryphon and it sounds terrific. I agree that the older Gryphons did sound a bit dark. The newer models are very different, very transparent. Especially the preamp. The amp, I have not yet listened to it much as I have been optimizing the wavacs. Also the amp may have some synergy with my speakers, whereas the Mirage is proven in my experience to work extremely well with everything I have thrown at it. I did prefer it to the Soulution, Krell etc, all of which are strong contenders too. Enjoy your Jadis system. Excellent stuff.
I recall mentioning earlier that I was big for Gryphon gear - having at least 4 amps, 3 preamps and 4 integrateds in the past. Saying that I switched back to tubes and sticked to Jadis for quite a while now.
For the sake of curiosity I asked a friend who owns an S100 amp to borrow it for me and try it in my system (which I must say was assambled around the Jadis amp), I found the Gryphon amp quite dark, slow and heavy n the bass.
The last Gryphon I had was an Anthileon Solo - and I am not sure if the latest amps from them have changed that much from the S100 that I tried some weeks back.
Thanks for sharing your findings here - very ilustrative and enlighting reading.
Excellent comments. not to mention that we can use that piece of wood on the home made DAC of your link to cut some sushi on when we dont listen to the itunes volume control...
If one works on something so hard for two years and still not "getting there" he/she needs to re-think the whole approach. For example:
1) If one has problems with power related issues, get rid of DC power. Use battery power. No more need for expensive power conditioners and power cords.
2) If multiple driver system is the problem. Use single driver with sub(s).
3) If preamp is the problem, get rid of it. You don't have to have it, especially you are on Mac using itune.
Regardless how satisfied we are in the beginning, we always find something wrong three months down the road. (A lot like marriage? :))
The goal I think is not "getting there". It is in the process of approaching "it".
Boeing, give me a couple of days and I will try to post a more comprehensive update as the Caliburn arrived and the system is finally settled (for now!)
I do like the Primes a lot and spent a fair amount of time comparing them, especially on my preamp and phono, with other power cords from Shunyata, Nordost (not Odin), Gryphon, Stealth, etc. I preferred the Origo model (one down from Prime) more than any of these and the Prime even more. They maintain and improve on the resolution of the Valhalla, and yet are what I could call, more transparent. The music sounds a little bit more tangible, realistic and often "sparkly" whatever that would mean to you. No softness, no loss of low end for fake sense of resolution. I have not experimented with the rest of the equipment but I did place Primes everywhere important. I still like the Valhalla a lot, especially at its used price which I think it better value for money than anything else I have tried. Maybe the odin will be a contender but its price is significantly higher than the Jormas and since I prefer the interconnects from Jorma, I stuck with them on the power. The one position I could argue I prefer the Odin is from my phono to preamp, for some reason. Maybe system specific?
Also note that I am more able to discern differences with power cords than interconnects (at least at this level.) Meaning that psychoacoustics and other stuff may affect results or mask them with intercons, whereas I find that with power cords the differences are easy to identify for me and other listeners who may attend.
I would recommend you try to get these pcords on demo at home and try them out there in a period of a week. Dont forget the Jorma Primes need 500h to break in. I daisy chained them and connected them to the refrigerator for a couple of weeks. The meat did not taste better though...
i've experienced oversized imaging in several large multi-driver speakers actually. these hv all had to do with close-miked, usually small scale jazz, chamber, vocal recordings.
anyway i believe Nordost has released digital Odins (both aes/ebu & standard spdif versions), as well as an Odin tonearm cable. there was a blog abt this on Audio Federation's website a while back. i went with analog i/cs cause there's more flexibility (i.e. one's able to try them in a variety of configurations).
i've not tried Jorma digital either (he doesn't make digital cables in "Prime" designation as you've mentioned).
i've previously had Valhallas, but they weren't my cup of tea... i felt they were tonally unbalanced with spot lighting in the higher freqs, but maybe it was just a case of bad synergy?
Thanks for the response. I have an opportunity to do an in-home demo of the EMM Labs CDSA-SE and the Wadia 381i. I thought I'd do some diligence first.
