Thanks for posting more pics. Your new and impressive speakers look awesome. Glad to hear the WP8's completely solved your recessed mid range issues. I see you are planning to get Wilson surrounds too...the whole thing will be extreme all out; so of course I'll keep checking for updates. Thanks for sharing - I really appreciate those who take time to post many pics. Seeing a real system kind of adds a dimension or weight to your forum comments and posts. After all, many of us have heard many speakers in demos and can hence pronounce authoritatively on this or that ...but serious setups like yours (with extensive acoustic treatements) distinguish a serious listener/fanatic from a casual poster/gear collector who simply pushes their current favorite component (usually the last one purchased).
Thanks. Those are nice speakers I have heard. I haven't had a chance to listen to any of the JM Labs yet, at HE2007 they were only open during specific times when I wasn't able to be around... I look forward to hearing them some time in the future.
Great looking system. I heard the WP8's at CES with a few different pieces of gear. They sounded very very nice every time I heard them. That is a great looking room. I know I PM'ed you about Ayre before. They are still on my short list. I also know what you mean about positioning of speakers. It took me about 2 weeks and moving my speakers just inches at a time to get it right. I use JM Labs 1027Be speakers. Once again, that is a fantastic looking setup.
The room dimensions are ~33' x ~18' x ~9' (& ~7.7') (Length x Width x Height). The ceiling is ~9' in the center area (the tray ceiling area with the RPG high profile Skylines on it), but ~7.7' under the larger soffit areas, if you are trying to figure out an approximate volume for the room.
The listening couch is ~1/3rd the distance of the room length from the back wall, the speakers are ~1/3rd the distance of the room length from the couch, and the front wall is ~1/3rd the distance of the room length from the speakers. So the room setup is split into ~1/3rds.
The ratio of the distance between the listening position and each speaker, to the distance between each speaker and the other speaker, is varying currently somewhere between these two limits: 1.1:1 to 1.25:1. Each offers a different and enjoyable experience with the music.
The closer position is more immersive, detailed at the individual instrument level, and seems more timbrally accurate sounding, though also tonally brighter, but the brightness could be a sign that I need more treatment on the ceiling reflection points for both speakers and at the right sidewall for the left speaker (this was confirmed through ETF5 meaurements - an impulse spike is occurring ~6' longer than the direct sound from both speakers according to Richard Rives, as I measured both speakers separately as well as simultaneously).
The further away position is more dry (not as immersive), offers a greater holistic focus of the music as a whole, i.e., greater total detail at the expense of less individual detail, and seems duller tonally and timbrally compared to the closer position.
The first position is great for a cathartic experience with the music, while the second is incredible for album analysis. Though to be fair, both positions offer the opportunity for epiphanies. The first position offers an epiphany of the emotional nature and the second position offers an epiphany of the intellectual nature. The first position places you inside the event so you can be a part of the experience, while the second position places you outside the event so you can analytically comprehend its entirety.
As you can imagine, I will probably never settle on one position, and luckily I only have to move my seating position around 6 inches to go back and forth between the two. The speakers are that refined in their localization and imaging!
Sean Turner from HiFiBuysNashville did an incredible job of voicing the speakers. Before the voicing started I had them in a position that wasn't terrible, but the very bottom of the bass was disconnected from the more high frequency portions of the bass notes and there were other issues as well that were more subtle. It was amazing to hear the difference in the two different locations he found where the speakers would work (unfortunately, the very best position would have been behind my movie screen, so it wouldn't work, though Sean guessed it would only be a 2%-3% difference between the two positions he found). Once he placed them in positions close to the final spots you could hear the whole frequency spectrum align. It was a mind blowing experience to hear such a radical difference in how these speakers present the music simply by moving one speaker even a single inch (as was demonstrated to me by Sean in the process of voicing them). The music completely came into focus and frequency spectrum aligned in a way I didn't think was possible. Bravo!
The Wilson Watt Puppy 8 speakers arrived on Wednesday. A friend and I set them up and the dealer came and voiced them today. All I can say is, breathtaking. The difference is night and day between these and my old speakers in my listening room. I'm having none of those congested, cavernous sound issues in the high-bass and mid-range with the new speakers, and most oher issues were eliminated as well. Absolutely marvelous.... WOW!!!
I'll post more later as I haven't had enough time to sit back and enjoy them. At some point in the next week I'll replace my pictures on this thread and express more of my sentiments. For now, suffice it to say, the moments when I close my eyes and feel I am hearing the real thing right in front of my face are so common now, that I am regretful that I didn't do this sooner.
Switching albums that had this issue to other speakers revealed that not all speakers have those characteristics that bothered me on the 802Ds. No speaker is perfect, nor will any speaker perfectly reflect the engineers' or artists' intent, and the album wasn't engineered to be perfect on the 802Ds, so it still is a matter of how you like to hear things presented. Even if it were engineered to be perfect on an 800D at Abbey Road studio, it would only be perfect set up in an exact replica of that space with the speakers in the same exact position.
Far too many of my albums have that cavernous, listening to music through a long tunnel sound, on the 802Ds for me to believe that it is all coincidence, especially when I don't have those issues on other speakers, including my Samson Resolv40a studio monitors (even if they do not sound as good in comparison to the 802Ds).
To be fair and make sure it wasn't completely in my head, I went downstairs to listen to some of the SACD version of Dark Side of the Moon on the Resolv80a monitors. While there are areas of songs, such as Breathe that have muffled chorus lyrics no matter what speakers I used, it is still different sounding vocally in general. The singing is in most instances more forward and less acoustically cavernous sounding. I could hear a definite difference when going from vocals that were lower down frequency wise (like Peter Gabriel, Billy Corgan and Jim Morrison) on the 802Ds to something like Steely Dan's Donald Fagan's vocals in his higher pitched songs. Testing Jim Morrison's "Love Street" on the 802Ds and the W/P7s is what convinced me to save up and change speakers initially, very different representations of the same music. Again, my preference.
Funny you should mention Alan Parsons. One of the albums where I had more issues than others on certain songs was Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon
Yes, but you need to be aware that even Pink Floyd had different views about how "muddied" or loud the vocals should sound compared to the rest of the mix...so in this particular case it may be intentional and the 802D's were just telling the truth (i.e. what Alan Parson's/PF intended at the time).
Definitely not a bad speaker at all. My friend recently mentioned to me that I just don't like the characteristic laid British sound as much as the more forward American presentation. I had also heard people refer to the B&W sound before as muffled and/or tubby (dealers selling other speakers of course), but those were terms I could relate with when making contrasts to my more recent considerations.
Funny you should mention Alan Parsons. One of the albums where I had more issues than others on certain songs was Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon."
It was often nasally in that range and the vocals sunken behind the music
Well I agree that a forward mid range is much more desirable than a recessed mid. However, Alan Parsons uses the Nautilus 802 or the predecessor of the 802D in his studio so it can't be all that bad....perhaps more a matter of personal preference as you suggest!
I definitely enjoyed reading your reply and all about your system and the evolution. I look forward to future updates once you get the WP 8's. thx
It isn't a consideration I think. I had the 802D speakers in this same room without any treatments, with a little bit of treatments and with the room completely re-designed via a Rives Audio level 2 consultation. I've also had the speakers in different spots in the room, as well as at the other end of the room with a completely different setup. At some point I'll post RT60s, when I get a chance, likely after the Wilsons are voiced this weekend some time.
I believe total room absorption is taken into account in Rives' design in terms of decay time. He asks for a list of everything that will be in the room, their materials and their dimensions before he begins the design work. That is enough information to make a close-enough approximation of the total room absorption for decay rate purposes. Rives also designs his rooms for a live sounding room (as per his website - though because this was also a HT room perhaps it is a little deader, I did ask to optimize it for two channel listening). I spent a lot of time on the phone asking him what exact kind of carpetting to use in my space (pile and padding, etc) in order to compensate for the material I was taking out of the room (i.e. I asked what carpetting he would recommend for his level 2 room design and he told me what general pile type and padding they design the room around).
The inherent character of the 802D never changed. The problems with that area of the vocal range never changed, despite moving the speakers around. It was often nasally in that range and the vocals sunken behind the music (I think this is possibly a Rohacel or Kevlar sound that I just don't find appealing). Cleaning up the room didn't resolve this, though it did bring out more detail in all of the frequencies and helped localize the instruments on the soundstage, it just wasn't enough detail and localization to compensate for the negatives I was finding subjectively in terms of my preferences. It just happens that male vocals in that particular range are one of my favorite things to listen to since I am a fan of rock music.
I don't think they are bad speakers. They are excellent and sound incredible. They just didn't have enough of everything I wanted for me to stay with them. Once I heard something with remarkably more of the things I wanted over a year and a half ago, I was spoiled (the W/P7s). I liked the W/P8s even more once I heard those after they were released, so to me it was worth it to switch. Ultimately, the detail and "live" sound of the Wilsons is something the 802Ds just couldn't reproduce to my liking. I demoed the 800Ds a number of times as well, and it couldn't make a recording sound "alive" to my preference level either in comparison. I just prefer that sound more to the B&W studio sound. Call me crazy, call me a romantic, but I'm happy with it and that makes it a worthwhile investment to me. To me, one is just subjectively better than the other since I prefer its sound a lot more to the other one. Just my personal preferences really.
No RT60 or waterfalls to share. I was really wondering how they would differ given all your bass trapping and extensive rear wall treatments?
BTW I was surpised about your 802D comments (lack of mid range/male vocals). I agree that the mid range is the critical piece in a speaker...all to often it is deliberately recessed by most manufacturers (so speakers have a bass and treble sizzle). Usually it is down to a dispersion problem....too narrow a dispersion in the mid range which gives a total sound field that is mid range weak. Other problems can be mid range compression - although I doubt that the 802 has this problem. Actually I was beginning to wonder if you might have overdone the dispersion/absorption in the mid range - you certainly have extensive side wall and ceiling treatments, as well as a carpet....all of which will really tone down the mid range! Have you considered this possibility?
Yes, somewhere in my AVS thread (on page #4 I think), there are graphs. Not the first comparison graph but the second one, as the first one includes the Meridian room correction software in the measurement.
The room hasn't had the fine tuning done yet though, so it will be worked on more once I get my new speakers voiced for the room.
Wow. One helluva room. I bet that sounds absolutely awesome! The extensive treatment at the rear is impressive. Do you have any before and after reverberation time plots?
I do have a diffusor in the front of the room. The passive resonator, or polycylindrical diffusor as it is termed in the Master Handbook of Acoustics - they appear to be the same thing, but I could be wrong - is the cylinder shaped object inbetween the two speakers on the front wall.
The best source for Acoustics I've read so far is "Master Handbook of Acoustics," by F. Alton Everest. Another good book about the nature of sound, music and listening is "Total Recording," by David Moulton. A third great book about music and how we perceive music is, "This is Your Brain on Music," by Daniel J. Levitin. The first one will be the most useful for acoustics. The others are also great books on music, though not as acoustically oriented.
There are also a lot of great sites online for acoustics topics. I've seen Kalman Rubinson recommend this one before: Acoustics Forum. Rives has a lot on the Rives Audio site, and he has published a lot of articles as well at Audioholics.
There are cheaper versions that use different number combinations and sizes, etc, as well. I don't think you can get any of those custom painted though, but if you don't mind airbrushing them yourself... I saw a few on AVS Forums before. Also, if you plan on designing your room yourself, there is a lot of great help to be had on the AVS HT Construction Fora.
