I finally got my center channel a few days ago and had time to set it up yesterday. Excellent...
I still have to call Wilson and figure out how to set up the tweeter properly for the custom stand height setting I ordered. Still, without moving it at all, and with simply facing the speaker and stand position upwards towards my listening position, it works great.
My dealer consulted with Wilson on building the stands with sand instead of lead shot. They said "technically" it would be better performance wise to use something like shot, but it wouldn't make an audible difference. They have spikes built into the bottoms for grounding. They are filled completely with sand (no movement room inside). The stands themselves are constructed from MDF. They are solid, and extremely heavy...
My dealer based the design on some custom stands Dave Wilson uses in his own home for his surround channel Sophias, that is why he consulted with Wilson Audio on how to construct them for the best stand height (based on the height of my couch's back) and grounding.
Speakers in the great outdoors will never sound like speakers in a room. No one has to refer anything to me, I've researched all the design work myself in books about acoustics such as "Master Handbook of Acoustics." Speakers don't sound so great in the outdoors when they are devoid of room interactions, they are missing a certain richness of timbre, soundstage expansion, precision in the localization, and dimensionality.
I don't know about the stands (you can guarantee I'll find out though...), but the rest of the room design is well researched acoustical engineering work...
JK you have a great system and room! I should have mentioned that there are other fill materials for stands. These other materials will be more reactive to vibrational energy than sand thou more dollars. Both steel shot and brass {not lead] will drain away more vibrational energy more quickly to ground than sand. For proper termination of the stand they would need to be grounded to the floor with some type of coupling points preferably also made of brass. These methods and materials would couple the speakers acoustic energy into the room more effortlessly and result in more open sound. Tom
The use of sand will decouple your speakers from their acoustic environment. Acoustic instruments played naturally in the great outdoors in the nearfield with no boundaries will sound nothing like what is being referred to you by others. There will be no dynamic coherence or scale. Tom
Yeah, and I thought of more stuff I forgot to put on the list...
Like putting red oak veneer on my rear speaker stands and staining them. My dealer conferred with Wilson Audio and designed MDF stands filled with sand to place my rear speakers on so they are raised a little above the back end of the couch....
I also have to have the humidifier installed soon, before it starts getting too dry and static is everywhere.
Hey there JKalman, Hang in there, the new studiotec 130 screen will be akin to listening to your SME vs. a bad cd player. One is etched and bright, the other is smooth and natural! Great choice! You won't be dissapointed.
You have an long to-do list.... get on it! We are eagerly awaiting seeing the finished room! I'm sure it will be worth the effort as you seem to be taking all the correct steps.
1. How is the SME20 TT? What did you have before that and how did it compare?
I haven't had a turntable since the mid-80s! My old turntable wasn't anything special, and I didn't even bother taking it out of retirement when I decided to start collecting LPs again.
The SME is awesome. I had a problem with the oil plunger for the tonearm malfunctioning and splattering oil all over the place, but it cleaned up fine (I think). Clark at Acoustic Sounds has been a tremendous help with getting me set back up with vinyl again. The people at SME are also a great help with things. When Acoustic Sounds is closed, SME is open because they are "across the pond." So, I always have someone to get tech support from! Not that I needed much, as this table is perfect for someone who doesn't want to spend a lot of time constantly tweaking their table.
What can I say the TT setup sounds incredible. I've always thought that I wouldn't hear any remarkable difference besides mastering differences, but I found it to be less abrasive (more relaxed?) sounding. CD often sounds to me like it is attacking my brain a little, while with the LPs on this TT, I'm finding it isn't edgy like most CDs seem to be, but rather smooth and less bright in comparison. Perhaps that too is a mastering difference, as I know that albums have to be mastered a certain way to work best on vinyl... Either way, I LOVE the difference!
2. Did you get your Sophias for surrounds yet? Maybe I missed it in one of your updates in recent posts.
Yes, and I added pictures of them as well (I think).
3. Is your room near completion, or do you have any more plan tweaks to the sonic treatments?
God I wish it were near completion...
A few things are in the works:
1) Mounting new RPG Diffusor System's BAD ARC treatments on first order sidewall reflection points. These are replacing RPG absorption panels previously used there, as per Rives recommendation based on the minimized room interaction design of Wilson speakers.
2) I ordered custom sized RPG BAD panels for the ceiling to cover gaps between the 1st order ceiling reflection points and the RPG Skylines.
3) Consulting with Rives on decreasing a bass hump that is a little too large in the 40 Hz to 90 Hz region.
4) Moving the previous sidewall absorption panels around to other areas of the room to tighten up the rear (as per Rives suggestion) and front of the room, to see which I like better.
5) Waiting on a box from Stewart Screen to return the screen for repairs, it had problems during the initial shipping, and was a little damaged. Once I get the box it will be shipped back for repairs, at which time the screen material will also be changed from the Firehawk G3 material to the StudioTek 130 material. The screen will have to be removed from the ceiling and put back in again when it returns.
6) The equipment closet ventilation isn't completed, so it will be worked on.
7) A humidifier needs to be added for the winter, to prevent static in the room, and dryness.
8) The lights need to be replaced. They are malfunctioning (some randomly flicker on and off, with no rhyme or reason), and have the transformers located on the track units. They are being replaced with quiter direct line lighting with a transformer somewhere with soundproofing.
9) Soundproofing of the equipment closet.
10) I have to fish around for the final impulse response issue. There is one reflection that I haven't located yet (likely on the bookshelf somewhere), so I will have to move panels around the bookshelf and take ETF 5 measurements until I find it, and if it isn't there, I will have to move them around the room until I find it...
11) Take pictures of newer equipment to add to this thread.
12) Remeasure room response and post the measurements here, as it is different now due to minor seating position changes and treatment changes. I'll probably wait on this until I finish almost everything else (at least until the treatments and bass hump are modified...).
I try not to think about it all at once... Thankfully, with the lights off, none of this interferes with the listening experience in any significant way to ruin the listening experience. Though things will definitely be improved with adding and changing the treatments, as well as with flattening the bass hump a little bit.
If I think about it all, it gets overwhelming and depressing. Having to remove the screen and send it back probably depresses me the most. I've gotten used to watching Heroes, CSI (Miami, Vegas, NY) and anything else that is on primetime on the big screen... So I'm really going to miss watching shows down there until it gets back.
I've said this once and I'll say it again. I really like the room and I wish I had a similar room for my system. I'm glad to see that you enjoy the WP8, they truly are gems.
If I had the money, they would be seriously considered.
Several questions: 1. How is the SME20 TT? What did you have before that and how did it compare? 2. Did you get your Sophias for surrounds yet? Maybe I missed it in one of your updates in recent posts. 3. Is your room near completion, or do you have any more plan tweaks to the sonic treatments?
By natural, I am referring to not using electronic methods like EQ/PEQ/etc. The purpose is to make the acoustical sound of room effects as minimal as possible without altering the original signal's direct sound (the first waves to hit the listener). The room reflections and interferences are all indirect sounds. A certain level of reflection is useful to add fullness to the timbre, but too much destroys the coherency, focus and detail of the soundstage and elements in the soundstage.
If I have to, as a last resort, I may have to use some light analog PEQ, but I'm really opposed to that idea.
Clearing up excess sound energy being reflected around the room tightens the soundstage, as well as focuses the imaging and detail of individual elements in the sound field. Everything in the sound field becomes more localized and identifiable. Without that kind of room treatment everything becomes cacophonous to me. Cacophony is not the kind of sound I prefer when listening to music, and that is the kind of sound I get when all the sound waves are being intentionally redirected towards my listening position. I prefer to hear the music more than the room, though I do realize that acoustic coupling is an unavoidable evil, it can be controlled enough to make it a pleasant experience.
No matter how much you smooth the room's surface you will still have to deal with pressure zones and nulls due to room boundaries. Adding specific devices (traps, resonators, etc) is a way to absorb excess energy at certain locations where waves are reinforcing each other (high pressure zones). This kind of natural room treating allows the original signal to stay intact, while eliminating any aberrations caused by the room boundaries.
Jk I think of room acoustics as if they were areodynamic devices and how to improve the flow. Smooth the flow from the source not having to fix the flow down the trailing end. Redirect the energy at hand hoping not to kill the dynamics..All the while focusing the dynamics at the listener who more than likely paid for the hopefull outcome. Tom
I found with my digital EQ (removing the +12 to +15dB hump) that the bass was more taut and defined, but some of the depth/dimension to the soundfield disappeared for certain instruments whose fundamental frequencies use those ranges, especially piano when playing notes that utilize the frequency ranges being altered. I believe this is because of the negative impact equalization has on the direct sound in order to correct for the total room response, since the equalization inevitably drives the direct sound excessively low at the problem frequencies in order to compensate for the modal reinforcement gain.
Unfortunately, changing the soffits in the way you did in your room likely wouldn't be a good idea in my room, since the lower bass frequencies in my setup are already reinforced too much. Likely I will have to use some types of helmholtz resonators and/or resonator panels mounted off the side walls in some of the nodal gain areas of the room that correspond to the problem frequencies.
Jk I found the digital eq of my room to be an overall negative investment. Its gone. Yea the bass went deeper and I was able to reduce a void that I had, but the bass had no musicality to it at all. One note at a time one after another, really dry, no harmonic flow.
Flow thats what I feel the angles improve. They improved the overall loading thru out the room. The prime spot for listening became broader and more defined. Bass loading improved at other positions as well. I found that loading the upper corners behind the speakers and redirecting that information towards the main listening position increased the midbass weight and impact{measured] and enhanced the stage stability. If I could eliminate all the 90 degree angles at the wall ceiling junction I would. Tom
My soffits aren't symmetrical. No one side measures the same dimensions as any of the other sides. The tray ceiling is off center from the general shape of the room.
I do have a problem with excessive bass starting at 40 Hz and ending at 90 Hz on the 20Hz to 200Hz and 1/6th octave response readings (+12 to +15dB) unless I use the Meridian 861 digital setup with bass management and separate subs. I'm talking with Rives later this month and doing measurements for him to see what can be done naturally to solve the problem. I want to avoid using electronic solutions at all costs, because while they may fix the room response they are still negatively altering the direct audio waves that arrive first at the listening position from the speakers. If I have to do some kind of PEQ solution, I'll end up getting a GML 8200.
Adding the 3 other soffit areas made the room symetrical..thats great to balance the pressure. What I found in my room that is 21w/27L/9 is that the soffit overhead that is symetrical in the room caused a dip in response of 5db between 50 and 80 hz at my listening postion. This was measured with an Audiocontrol RTA at the ceiling the chair and near the floor. When I put an angle of 32degrees across the full face of the sofitt most of the bass came back plus the image and focus improved as well. Since then I have incorporated similar angles in the room. One large enclosure is around my drop down theater screen. Looks like a spaceship there on the ceiling I think it looks pretty cool. Main thing though is that it too improves the punch and again stage and focus. I happy for you that your room and your system all came together. Tom
I never asked about that issue. Initially only one side of the room had a soffit (the right side) So the other three walls had it added on as part of the Rives design.
From my own understanding of acoustics via Everest's book, the soffits would serve to diffusively break up any waves whose 1/7th of a wavelength is the same size or smaller than the soffit's distance off of any wall (ceiling or sidewall in the case of my room). So the soffits would have a diffusive quality for certain frequencies that don't defract around them.
