Hi Thomas . Pleasure meeting U . Interesting discussion for 2 days. My friend Choong was fascinated with the technical expertise & knowledge of both Dietrich & U . Finally he was convinced that Din curve is superior to both Logfren & Baerwald curves .
The demo of Axiom Tonearm & Aiwon catridge was awesome especially in the Audio note M10 system with Sperling TT. Glad I purchased Axiom & now I have to seriously consider Aiwon. Trouble 😰😓😥😪😂

audioblazer December 03, 2014 21:28

Hello Audioblazer,
I never had any problems with such long RCA cables, the AQ Sky is dead silent, my former XLO Signature also (I had 7m RCA and XLR, both silent and immune to any influences), also cheaper cables did not show any problems.
I use my System that way for a very long time, I prefer that way from optics/sonics to a placement between the speakers. Preamps should be able to run such a length without problems but I can imagine that some Preamp Designs are sensible to that. Try it first with a cheap cable, a good quality is available from SignalCable.

syntax December 03, 2014 12:31

Nice photographs. Thank you for sharing them. I've always wanted to hear a good horn/tub/analog system. How did it sound?

Interesting choice for an arm. SME seems more popular in Asia than it is in the US. I see a lot of SME V-12 arms on super tables in Asia.

peterayer December 02, 2014 20:24

Impressions from my Visits in Asia 2014

Audiophile Visit 01 / 01

Audiophile Visit 01 / 02

Audiophile Visit 01 / 03

Audiophile Visit 01 / 04

Audiophile Visit 01 / 05

Audiophile Visit 01 / 06

Audiophile Visit 01 / 07

Audiophile Visit 01 / 08

Audiophile Visit 01 / 09

syntax December 02, 2014 18:28

Thanks Whart. Sorry Syntax. Back to your system.

peterayer October 18, 2014 21:42

Peter: I know you raised this question earlier. When the record comes out of the KL it is fairly wet, so the bottom side does wet the platter mat; the Monks has this 'Pyr' mat which is essentially a bunch of pyramid 'nubs' so, in theory, the water drains down below the points of contact. Once the top side is vac-dry and I flip the record to vacuum the other side, it is typically not as wet (because the excess has drained onto the mat). I was a little concerned that it would not be 'wet enough' and the first couple of times, added a little reagent water to the 'flip side' before drying. (I know, I haven't gotten to your question yet). But, Syntax pointed out to me that between the thread as a buffer and the water remaining in the grooves, I'd be fine, without needing to add any more water to the surface of the 'flip' side. (And he was right, that's how I did the batch today).
Now, to your question. The 'pyr' mat isn't perfect, and the clean 'A' side does get rewetted in spots- it varies, by the water left on the mat from the wet 'B' side. There are a couple ways to handle this, I guess. One- compressed air - to blow dry the mat before flipping the record; using a clean microfibre cloth to blot the excess from the platter before the 'flip' (which I haven't tried); using a clean microfibre cloth to blot the record itself when finished (remember we are now concerned with the water spotted 'A' side that got rewetted from the mat; for what it's worth, i had to do that sort of thing with the Audio Desk routinely because of water spotting on a 'finished' record). Or, conceivably, switching the KL to dry only mode for a minute or two, and more fully drying the record that way.
Hey, nobody said this was easy or perfect. :)
But, having now listened to the several records I've cleaned in this manner, it does make a difference on older records whose noise is attributable to embedded foreign matter. I know, one might say, 'there are limits to how clean a record can be gotten.' But, even before this latest approach, using the KL and Monks, I was using the combination of AIVS No. 15 and lab water as a pre-clean before putting into the Audio Desk. I found that in some cases with old records that you might conclude were damaged by wear/improper turntable, some of the noise was stuff that was really bound into the grooves, and that the enzyme soak and agitate helped loosen that stuff before putting into the Audio Desk.
I don't want to hi-jack Syntax's system page, and would be happy to revert to a different thread to discuss various methods. I guess my tentative conclusions after playing around with this stuff more seriously in the last couple years is that no one method addresses all the issues any given old record may have, and that multiple steps make a difference. I am also favoring Syn's view that the nozzle clean is more effective than blow drying, but it is time consuming, and may not be necessary for brand new, out of the shrink records. For those, I don't even pre-clean unless there is an apparent issue- they go right into the ultrasonic.

whart October 17, 2014 21:03

Whart, I'm not surprised with this. A friend recently cleaned some of my LPs on his Audiodesk. I still heard some surface noise, so I recleaned them on my Loricraft and noticed an improvement.

But I have a question: if you wash in the KL and dry on a point nozzle type RCM, what do you do with the washed wet/bottom side of the LP as it sits on the platter of the point nozzle? It can only dry one side at a time.

peterayer October 17, 2014 19:42

I want to give Syntax 'props' for his suggestion to wash in the KL and dry using a point nozzle. I've done this with several old valuable pressings that had been previously cleaned on various machines, using various methods, including in some cases on the KL, using it for both wash and dry. I appreciate that repeated cleanings will continue to make a difference (up to a point), and the results haven't been quite as dramatic on some records as others (where the issue may ultimately be groove wear/damage), but:
I recently got a UK Swirl of Cressida, which is one of the more rarified Vertigos. It wasn't top dollar and the seller had graded it fairly- it was somewhat noisy, ticks and pops, with a lot of surface hairlines. (I've come to learn that the visuals don't tell you everything about the sonics of what's in the grooves, but the bottom line was, this record was noisy even after a pre-clean on the Monks, and a full wash and dry on the KL). But reversing the process, as Syntax suggested (starting with a 'clean' record to begin with) in the KL for wash only and vacuuming on a point nozzle has brought this record up several notches in playability and overall enjoyment. I am completely delighted with the results. I doubt this is a panacea for all old noisy pressings, but when it works, it's great! One of the problems with trying to compare how effective cleaning methods are on old records is that every one is sui generis- each has its own unique history of exposure to pollutants and foreign matter.
Just wanted to acknowledge Syn's very good idea, and share the benefit.

whart October 17, 2014 18:39

Syntax,
How would you compare your Bendetta Research phono amp to your other contemporary phono amps

ddriveman October 07, 2014 08:15

Thomas
What an incredible collection of audio gear. Wow it's like a Audio museum , probably better
Many thanks for your tips on the Decca SXLs. Acquired several titles from a UK online site. Superb quality and sensible pricing
Cheers
Pradeep

sunnyboy1956 October 06, 2014 11:29

dog statuettes tweakin' speakers and amps :)

czarivey October 01, 2014 14:25

Syn: quick question (I tried sending you a message thru A-gon, but I'm not sure you received it). I managed to order some of the Hannl Fluid you like from the Cable Co. here in the States (fluid, not concentrate). Are you doing any sort of pure water rinse on the Odyssey, or simply cleaning using the Hannl fluid on the Odyssey without a 'rinse' stage, then popping into the KL? (I have been doing a water rinse stage on the Monks after using the Monks fluid).
I also ordered some 'new' Touromat fluid, it is called 'Groovy Fluid' (silly) but is an updated version of that old, classic cleaning fluid. I'm going to give that a try in the Monks as well.

whart September 30, 2014 23:40

Any RCM which uses a part from a Vacuum cleaner or Hair Dryer (Slot Cleaners) can't be used while listening to music. The Klaudio is no exception. The only unit which is silent enough is my Odyssey ( an improved Monks) or a Keith Monks. They work different and the motors are pretty silent. For me it is not a problem, the cleaning is done in a separate room anyway.
But there isn't so much water on the record when I remove it wet...that is no problem is reality.

The very edge of the records doesn't get thoroughly dry on the Monks- i can get the lead-in grooves dry by wiggling the nozzle around a few times at the end of a drying cycle, but the rim is slightly wet. Perhaps still using too much fluid.

Yes, when the cleaning brush is dry you need for the first record more fluid and based on the rotation is moves to the outside. Soaking the brush needs the most fluid in the first run...But you need much less fluid for the following records, sooner or later you have the the experience for it.
It is possible that Hannl made the concentration for shipping to avoid shipping water around the globe. I did not try it, but I read it should be similar to the V3 C cleaning fluid.
In a way you can compare it with an expensive DSLR Camera, you can activate the "P" Programm and all is done automatically (Shutter, Time ...) or when you think you can do it better manually, you activate a different Programm in that camera...the same options you have with these two designs. It is not necessary to own both, but when you want the best possible result, that's the way to go.

syntax September 17, 2014 13:04

So far, so good. Took me a little while to get the hang of it, I'm using the Monks fluid and a lab water rinse; only a couple of records needed the so-called mold-buster step first, which I let soak. Practical observations: using less fluid than I did with a VPI; cleaning time is fairly quick, despite the myth that the point nozzle is more time-consuming than the wand; I have a pretty good 'work station' set up in another room now, just for cleaning; I'll probably buy a KL as a finish. The very edge of the records doesn't get thoroughly dry on the Monks- i can get the lead-in grooves dry by wiggling the nozzle around a few times at the end of a drying cycle, but the rim is slightly wet. Perhaps still using too much fluid.
I like the substantiality of the machine; I like the fact that I can stop it if I need to for a soak, and I like how clean the records SOUND. More revealing. It will be interesting to see what the KL adds to the mix- I'm going to try using reagent water in the KL, per Albert, since I'd like the 'final pass' to be 'pure' water. That is something I can't do with the Audio Desk, which I just sent back for a 'precision top' retrofit to reduce water spotting.
I'm not using the brushes, but MoFi pads, which I pre-wet with the appropriate solution. Hannl said they would send me some fluid but I believe it is in concentrate form, not the 2 litre jug of the stuff you are using. (Perhaps they can't ship that overseas; I can check with a local Hannl dealer here in NY). I haven't used my AIVS since it may be considered a 'foaming' type cleaner that is apparently taboo with the Monks. I'm still learning how to use this machine, but it is very good. I understand why people prefer the ease of ultrasonic; given my experience with lot's of old records, I'm more comfortable with this process. Build quality reminds me of a 1952 Austin saloon, with instructions to match! :)

whart September 14, 2014 03:27

Peterayer,

Simple solution, he picks up the record very gently, some say even reverently. Then, while turning ever so slowly to the West, he spins the disk slowly and carefully counterclockwise while vertically lowering his arms to be perfectly in sync with the level of dertonearm's lips, then whispers, "blow gently; yes, that's correct."

...in a matter of moments, pristine and dry, then off to the Monks nozzle, simple.

Cheers!

unoear September 13, 2014 22:08

Syntax,

If you don't dry in the KLaudio, how do you put an LP with both sides wet on the Monks machine for drying? I just saw a KLaudio machine for the first time and was surprise at how loud it is. People don't mention this. It can not be used in the same room as the system when listening to music, IMO.

peterayer September 13, 2014 16:49

Wow...what a line-up of gear and overall system make-up. Your listening experience must be both a lot of fun and first rate!

zephyr24069 September 11, 2014 08:51

Well, after "mocking" you will hear a digital silence in the deeper soundstage :-)
More of the "nothing" around the note.
The grooves are fully dry without any static issues. The first clean I do always with the point nozzle, the Klaudio is the next step.
Sometimes I do not use the dryer from the Klaudio, I do only the us-cleaning and put the record onto the Odyssey (or Monks) for the point nozzle removal.
Keep me updated with your findings...

syntax September 10, 2014 20:45

Syn- with a Monks en route to me now, and still the owner of an ultrasonic (albeit the Audio Desk, not the KL), what does the ultrasonic add after 'monking'? Are you able to get the rims fully dry on the Monks? No static issues? Or is the KL simply for when you are feeling 'lazy'? (Which is where I use the ultrasonic now, for new records and for finishing the cleaning/drying process on old records I have cleaned using manual fluids/vaccum).

whart September 09, 2014 12:43

Nice system.

thesaint519 September 08, 2014 03:12

Syn: I have come to a similar conclusion, and use a similar approach: essentially pre-cleaning, using AIVS No. 15, letting it soak, agitating, vacuuming (VPI, though that Odyssey is beautiful), then reagent water, soak, agitate and vacuum, before popping into an Audio Desk. The pre-cleaning makes a huge difference on older records. Some of the sort of 'fuzzy distortion' that I usually associate with damaged grooves has proved to be remediable through intensive pre-cleaning. I've had a few records that I would have regarded as unsalvageable played great after some work. ( I wouldn't bother with an easy to find record, but some of these-- older UK Vertigo Swirls, for example or white label promotional copies--are worth the trouble.
If a brand new record doesn't look bad after I open it, I may skip the pre-clean and just use the ultrasonic, but the vast majority of records I buy are old, so I'm usually doing the 'double clean.'
For what it's worth, I was using 4 steps of Walker Prelude, but the AIVS No. 15 plus lab water does just as good a job in half the time.
Best,
Bill Hart

whart August 15, 2014 22:47

Another fine post from Syntax. Clear and concise. Thank you.

peterayer August 15, 2014 18:21

One Foot In the Gutter

or

some thoughts about record cleaning ...

At the moment I use 2 cleaning machines, a German improved Keith Monks unit (Source Odyssey), a point nozzle design and a Klaudio Ultrasonic machine.
As usual, we find raves about every new product and also for the Klaudio unit. Good as it is, it is worth to think about details...

I still think that the removal of dirt is the most important step (others think, the kind of fluid is the solution but I do not share this view) and here is generally a point nozzle design still the way to go, specially when you collect older records, you won't believe how much dirt such a design can remove.

I always did avoid to go for a Glaess machine, even when the Distributor is not far away from me. One of my most important priorities is reliability and here it showed too much problems for me. And I simply do not trust its Filtering and rollers. And in a way I hate this expensive "record cleaning fluid policy". Anyway, I refused to sign the check. When Klaudio became available, it got my attention based on 2 design features:No expensive cleaning fluid necessary (only cheap, distilled water) and the kind of making (no nonsense, robust and no flimsy parts which will break sooner or later).

In combination with a pre-clean with my Odyssey first (older records from the later 50's) the cleaning result is superior. Huge soundstage with an unheard silence "between the notes".

Klaudio RCM

But sometimes there is still some noise....

Clicks and pops can have 3 reasons
a, dirt
b, pressing material from the process in the groove (reissues have that normally)
and
c, damage at the side walls from the grooves based on wrong cartridge adjustment, wrong VTF and some more reasons.

a, this can be solved with machines for 100%,
b, mainly no big hope, here nothing will really help, such a record will get clean sometimes but it is normally a minority
c, no hope. except a "primitive" cartridge with a round diamond (it can hide it)

Generally we can say, any cleaning can be done good/better/best when the record WAS perfect and later came dirt, smoke, coke, fat finger tips etc. into the grooves. That can be removed for 100%. But something from a melting process or defect carts ... here will the story of cleaning find an end. A lot of reissues are made with very soft vinyl, they are super sensitive to everything, records from the 80's for example are best of best, even with 60 or 80gr. Noise can also grow when someone used alcohol for cleaning, this can make the grooves dry and the noise will be endless.
The best results (and also most reliable from the technical view) you will get the way you did describe. The mold should be removed with a machine which is able to do a good job, best is a point nozzle design. Then you can do a final Ultra Sonic clean. When I do it that way, the main gunk is in my Monks and when I do an additional run of that "pre-cleaned" Record in the Klaudio there is no more dirt in the reservoir.

But even when you are lazy and use the Klaudio only, deskilled water is cheap, a change of the fluid is easy. Btw. Fingerprints are uninteresting, that is a visual disturb only. The diamond of the cartridge tracks the inside the grooves, not their top. Of course, the ADS has advantages, but the time showed, it made too much problems and some did choose the Klaudio because they want something reliable. I am one of those. And the combination of a point nozzle + Klaudio is simply the best when you are serious in records.

From time to time we will read what the best record cleaning fluid is and I think it is helpful to read a little bit between the lines, for example AIVS is a multistep cleaning solution, that means, any owner who spends 30 minutes per record expects to hear terrific improvements. And the more fluids he can use, the better.
I am sure, when any of the other users clean their record 3x with L'Art Du Son or whatever, they will get the same - or a comparable - result. I used AIVS, too and it didn't bite the bullet for me. Probably I have a superior cleaning machine, who knows...and not one record I cleaned with the Enzyme fluid gave me an improvement to the fluid I used before with it.

Some pics from records which will show you remarkable sonics

London CS 6208

RCA LSC 2471

London CS 6252

RCA LSC 2292

When you want ONE record to check out why Mono's are really special

Mercury MG 50167

Happy Listening

syntax August 15, 2014 10:46

Hi Ddriveman,

when I did that, Audioquest offered "Y" connectors (splitter) as an option with their DBS packs. So it was quite simple, this "Y" connector plus 2x72V DBS and it was done. I am not really up to date with Audioquest now, but I think, this "Y" connector is no longer available. Self made "competition" for their higher priced cables I think...
But, when you want to go that way too, look for "older" AQ cables which are fitted with 2x round DBS packs and replace them. They have this splitter. Cheetah or Sky was available with 2x24V or 2x36V for example, I bought some and I also got some for Leopard Tonearm cable that way.
I think, the biggest jump is from lower voltage up to 72V. The 2x72V is like the icing on the cake, you don't need it, but when you try it and you like it, ..well, no way back. The result is a kind of deep silence between the notes, hard to describe because every description is already used even for mediocre sound results, but the reproduction becomes a clean honesty, no artifacts, no sonic fingerprint, details have more own different volume, the tiny details are more present, just a wire with gain...

syntax August 01, 2014 07:37

Syntax,

I see that you use Audioquest Leopards and Sky cables. I like Audioquest too but I am wondering how you can double up on the active bias to 144DBv. Do you have to modify the cable yourself? Is this an option offered by Audioquest? Appreciate your inputs.

ddriveman July 31, 2014 15:23