Well, an advantage in theory is only an advantage in reality, when something is done right. A perfect calculated 9.5" Arm is better than a mediocre or wrong 10-12" Arm. A customer mainly wants something serious for his money, so he believes what the manufacturer says. When that one thinks, "this" or "that" is not so important and the customer is "picky and ruins the day" (...--> 100 happy customers and you are the only one ...)...well, you know these kind of discussions.
Don't ask me what a reviewer thinks :-)
In a way they also believe that something is done right, it is not their task to control any geometric calculation or to rethink a design in general.
When you read the forums, you see that mainly customers have good advices, knowledge which helps one or the other to move on. Spending money is not the guarantee for superior results. Going back to yesteryear design also not...But shooting the messenger is quite common, too :-)
I am not up to date with Elite Arm. I use Graham Arms for 10 years and they are very good, but when I got the 10" /12" with the wrong alignments I decided to stop. I still think the Standard length Phantom supreme is a super Arm among what is available, but only that one.
The 12" with external alignment system sounds also very good, but here you have to know what to do but the position of the cartridge always disturbed me. I never used a expensive cartridge with it, the side force is not healthy for sensitive cantilevers. I have Arms which are done right, so I sold those Arm tubes. But I said the buyer what he has to do (I am a fair seller). Well, the improvement of cable...I don't believe it, silver has the highest rating for information transfer, there is no good or better silver, the AES Standard for all technical silver is 106 (Copper is 100, Gold is 91%), maybe he used silver lot or better Headshell clips..who knows but Marketing has its own rules :-)

syntax May 14, 2013 14:34

Syntax, Your iPhone photo shows it as well as some other shots I saw on the net from CES on the TechDas. It looks like a standard black 12" Phantom spray painted silver.

One advantage of a 12" arm is the lower offset angle which means less skating force and less need for anti-skating. It is shocking to me that TriPlanar and Graham would release arms with no change in offset angle.

This must be a mistake. Are you sure that this is actually the case? And if it is, how can the web reviews of the longer versions be so glowing?

It is still not clear to me if the photo you posted is of the 12" Phantom or of the new 12" Elite. I know you are a big Graham arm fan, perhaps you could report more on the development of these two 12" Graham arms. Internal wiring is supposed to be much better etc.

peterayer May 14, 2013 12:47

I hate to say this...but just sounds like sloppy work from 2 well respected tonearm makers..

jfrech May 14, 2013 00:02

For him not to change the offset angle with the 12" arm is very strange ..

Most will never notice it and it saves money...but you can see the same with the 12" Triplanar :-)

effects anti-skate, tracking, null points etc.

You are right

I had read that the Elite is a whole new design with far superior sonics to the 12" Phantom.

:-)

The silver finish also looks primitive and like a prototype, not a finished production model standard

Is the Photo that good (I made it with an iPhone), you have remarkable sharp eyes.. or did you see it somewhere else?
I agree. I was very disappointed when I saw it. Very cheap finish. My impression was at that moment that the silver color was done with a spray can.

syntax May 13, 2013 19:24

For him not to change the offset angle with the 12" arm is very strange. Surely he can not believe this doesn't matter. This effects anti-skate, tracking, null points etc. So is this the Elite or just a 12" version of the Phantom II? I had read that the Elite is a whole new design with far superior sonics to the 12" Phantom. The silver finish also looks primitive and like a prototype, not a finished production model standard.

peterayer May 13, 2013 18:53

Hello Peter,
well, in a way nothing compares to those large Cinema Horns. They were made to amplify any signal for thousands of people. they can't be compared to our listening standard but these old drivers have a remarkable clean tone. Really interesting. I talked a little bit with the Korean people and it was indeed interesting. They have good knowledge and simply a different approach. They offer rebuilds but I think, they are mainly focussed to Asia in sales.
When you look at the Graham 12" you will see he didn't change the arch angle. When the regular 9" Graham alignment is used the cartridge screws are parallel but when I used a 12" alignment...it was wrong...so you can do your own thinking about that :-)
When I had it my cart screws were not parallel when I did it...he simply made the arm tube a bit longer. ..

syntax May 13, 2013 06:01

Thanks for the report. Nice photos as always. How do your speakers compare to the sound of those WE Cinema Horns? I agree we can do more based on some of the results of the vintage gear. But who has a room large enough to support such a speaker system? Even the D'Agostino and SF demo looks like it was in a huge room. Nice, but how realistic is that?

Will you be getting the Graham Elite? How do you think the 12" compares to the shorter Graham arms? I had thought that Bob Graham did not like 12" arms because the benefits don't outweigh the problems of longer arms. Or has he changed his mind?

peterayer May 12, 2013 20:21

Impressions from Much High End 2013 / Germany

Graham Phantom Elite in 12"

Available without TechDas AirForne One

Demonstation with Western Electric Cinema Horns

When I understood it right (my Korean/ English is basic) those were one out of three existing Horns, made 1935 and one (mono) was done for 3500 Listeners, so these two of them are of for 7000. they don't need more than 8W, Demo was made with 300B, maybe 2W, enough to produce endless jaw dropping from the visitors. We need in our modern world a new definition of speed and lifelike reproduction I think.
The Korean Company offers rebuilds or copies with refurbished Drivers, their smallest model start at $180.000,--
The sound made the Magicos, YG's, NOLA and other extremely speakers at that show more or less totally uninteresting.

One of the better - modern - Demonstrations was
D'Agostino Momentum Mono Amps with Sonus Faber Speakers.
In a 2. Hotel was also a small Demonstration from a few Manufacturers, a good Demo was done from Acapella Speakers....

syntax May 11, 2013 09:24

Well, hard to describe because every word, every attribute is already used even for mediocre Designs. But THAT unit can do the things others write about and when you listen to these units, you discover they can't do anything at all (or maybe one part of it). Pure Fantasy. The modifications are mainly focussed to energy transfer speed, vibration research and micro & macro linearity. The result is a superior low bottom reproduction up the highest frequencies with a lifelike reproduction. I refer to a dense deep and very communicative presentation. This particular communicativeness consists of highlighting the sonic aspects which deliver the emotional charge encoded in a tone.
In terms of layering, transient decay, rhythm and pacing, palpability, and sheer musical involvement it is a class of its own. That unit smoked Goldmund Reference, Continuum Caliburn, Clearaudio Statement, Rockport Sirius III, V.Y.G.E.R. and others in a way that it was really depressing for their owners when they listened to it in my room. They "saw" and heard a holographic Picture they didn't know that something like this does exist. The modifications (Thread drive, Platter construction, Vibraplane, HS-80, Sutherland Timeline) are responsible for that. But I don't talk much about it, when someone is really interested in details he can visit me and listen.

syntax May 04, 2013 15:56

syntax

how does the vibraplane and HS-80 help improve the micro performance
also what material do you had on the platter? thx

voraratc May 03, 2013 16:25

Hello Zayrueda,

I used the M-60 and the ML2.1 with a 99dB Horn speaker System with a very simple X-over, both run very well.
Normally the ML2.1 can drive more speakers than the M-60, but there are so many speaker designs out there, who knows all...
Any Amp will show different results, not based on the sensitivity of the chassis, there is also a brake (more or less) with X-over design. Did you try the different outputs? The ML2.1 shows different reactions with the same connected speaker (independent from their sensitivity) based on their internal design. Probably this will give you a better result...

syntax April 23, 2013 13:27

About Lamm Ml2. I had Atmasphere 60 till now with 98db-7 ohm Dipolo crossover speakers till now; now I have tried Lamm ML2. I find it slow.
Any suggestions? What upgrade have you done in your Lamm ML2.1. Thanks

zayrueda April 22, 2013 21:07

Some Pictures from an audiophile visit. The owner has the legendary Platine Verdier (1. Generation) from France and we all wanted to now how stable the speed is. And Reproduction Performance of course.
I used the Sutherland Timeline for Speed adjustment and the Cartridge Man gauge for leveling the whole analog System....

Speed adjusted

VTF & speed adjusted

some of our carts ...

Lyra Atlas running ....

Lyra Olympos SL in action ...

Lyra Titan i ...

the Lyra all time classic ...

THE Sytem

well, what can be said? When a designer (Verdier) has the right thinking, finds the right solutions AND is able to offer a unit done right, well then you can hear it at once...the effortless reproduction...the unique musical flow ...time was running...record after record ...

We decided to use the Fr-64s + FR-66s Arms + Vibraplane, and now I know why this turntable has its legendary status (there are made fakes, I listened to some "Verdiers" but that was my very first time with one which we aligned from scratch and where I saw what the Designer has done, and why...Verdier gave ironic advices to the "Pirates" to improve their fakes, but they all failed, the new Verdier Version have only the name, but can't be technically compared to the unit you see in the Pics).

syntax April 21, 2013 10:20

Here is the

view

behind the Speakers :-)

Visitors listening to the Blues

In summer I like barbecuing, sitting outside and trying to analyze the sound of fresh air :-)

syntax April 10, 2013 13:00

Syntax, where do you live? The view out of your windows looks smazing! Snap a pic with the curtains open for us to be jealous not only of your gear, but your view too :-)
Wow!

b_limo April 08, 2013 14:40

Hello Doug,
the Omnigon was a private Order from an engaged group of Audiophiles who simply wanted the very best Phonostage which can be made. Cost was no object (one of the Volume pots is way above 1k$ without shipping...and the story goes on and on).... It isn't a commercial unit. With the usual profit range it would be way above 100k...
But one main goal was also, that it has to be better in a major way to everything out there we know...everyone writes that of course, but this unit can do it ....one visitor once told me..."it is not only listening to music, it is most emotionally compelling System he ever listened to ..."
In a way it is the proof that a serious solution in High End can be done when the right people come together who know what's all about.

From the commercial units my favorite ones are Lamm, they have a kind of lifelike sound which is hard to beat, specially the LL2 / LL2.1.
The others are also among the better ones but I think, when a signal goes through this tube vacuum, something happens which can't be done with Transistor.

syntax February 13, 2013 14:59

Syntax , what kind of gain any preamp must have to be able to match with LAMM phono ?

audioblazer February 12, 2013 17:41

Hello Peter,

HRS
Well, I think, they are a nice piece of furniture. They are better than a piece of glass or wood, no doubt, but the price is really high. They guide the resonance into their feet from what I saw, but they are no comparison to some serious solutions like Vibraplane or Minus-K from the sonic result. But you can use them in a rack, that's the main advantage imo. And they look nice.
Minus-K
Sonically, or from the sonic result, they are comparable to VP. A serious Design, no doubt. But I would never use them with a Turntable because they swing all the time when you do something. When the turntable is not really 100% level (and I mean 100%, not 99,5%) it will be always in move. The unit which is placed onto has to be centered ( a real task with multiple Arm units). When you have a turntable with a heavy platter, the speed will always change a little bit (like an Imbalance), a turntable needs a stable platform. Here is the VP MUCH better.
When I would own Minus-K I would use them with Preamp or Amps but never with turntables.
Vibraplane
Beside its heavy weight it is in real life the best solution. Whatever you place on it, it stays stable. THE solution for heavy Turntables. I tried them more or less by accident - after reading the specs and thinking about it - with amps and was really surprised about the gain in soundstage depth, holographic "Gestalt" (body), from all positive simply more. What is made for electron microscopes can't be bad for turntables :-)
I also tried them with Digital Transport / Phonostage ---> a Design done right.

syntax February 12, 2013 15:51

Syntax,
Great pictures of the various isolation devices, thank you for sharing. Are you testing the Kuzma Ref XL as a possible turntable addition as well?

Jeff

jeff1225 February 11, 2013 22:38

Allnic
The Phonostage has a lot of adjustments and good gain. When I did the first listening I was struck first with a big soundstage but the longer I listened to that unit, a few things disturbed me more and more. The Soundstage is big but after a while I realized with some well knows records that this Soundstage is flat. There is a lot of 'boost' but no real holographic Picture, not really 3- dimensional. I did the test with some different cartridges, but mainly with Lyra Olmpos and here the unit showed something remarkable for me. The Cartridge sounded simply wrong, loud, but dead and the tonal definition was not the way the Olympos was able to deliver. No matter what kind of setting we tried, there was a change of course, different but not better. The height and position of instruments were not really right, or let me say, I heard better presentations which gave me the illusion of 'being there'...After some hours I said "No", the last try was with a very good external SUT into the MM Imput. The change in Performance was so dramatic, that I simply couldn't believe it first. I unplugged it, plugged it again and so on...but using the SUT to avoid the whole internal Phonostage was- for me & other listeners - the way to go. I lost interest in that unit after 3 days and never looked back. But it is better sounding than a Boulder 2008 :-)
My sonic priorities are different, there is a Fangroup for everything, I thought some time about what to write, a enthusiastic recommendation is written much faster...but my way is the I prefer after all those years reading Product Placements, ahem sorry, I mean "reviews" :-)

LAMM
well, some words first for explanation,
I love nothing in High End, I look for units which can do the real thing
and I know a lot of units but not every one :-)
The LP2 is available in 2 versions, with 58.5 dB Gain or a special order unit with 70 dB Gain, I use that one in DeLuxe Version (but I had the regular Version too, also very good but my way went to low MC, 0.20mV and below)
Regarding LP2 and other Lamm products, the best way I can describe them is that they are the closest thing to natural music reproduction in the high end scene. One of the things you'll recognize
with the LP2 (after break-in) is the total lack of any mechanical artifact present in almost every other phono stage that I've tried. A real breakthrough. The back grounds are rich with information
from the recording venue unlike any other phono amps that are either just synthetically black or have some kind of tube or transistor noise. The sound flows with the LP2 unlike anything else that I've heard.
Most chop up the music or affect the balance between instruments.

This is an important factor when listening to music. Quite often High End equipment produce all instruments and voices in the same level, this is something no reviewer writes about.
There is always a delicate Balance between different instruments in an orchestra, even in duo this balance is highly sophisticated and important.
You go to any classical concert, depending on the music, for example a piano and a singer, the beauty and delicacy of the piece has to do with the interplay of the piano and voice, You'll loose everything if they are reproduced by the same level by your electronics. Then there are all the nuances of the voice and the fingering technique of the pianist, if accomplished, add to this delicate situation, Lamm electronics are the only high end products that I know of today that reproduce this sophisticated level of information faithfully without adding their own signature. Of course you'll hear all this if the rest of your system is up to scratch.

All magazines talk about artifacts like deep bass, deep soundstage, low coloration etc. etc. but never discuss how a piece of electronics adds its own signature be reinterpreting the recording.
That's why equipment becomes boring after a while and people take to buying tweaks, like stupidly expensive power cords and cables, footers, roller balls, power conditioners and all kinds of other j**k and when that is done, they'll go to a Sales Platform, change their equipment and start the cycle all over again when the novelty of new is worn out.

Like I say "God is in the details" (ok, it was Mies van der Rohe, a famous Designer)
Weakness? The output of the LP2 will not match to any Preamp out there, when the Preamp has not enough internal Gain of the Input, you will loose some of its abilities. In combination with Lamm LL2 / LL2.1 it is a very remarkable combination, could be the end of the road, Listened to a lot of much more expensive units which bite the dust after seconds...Mine runs with original WE417A tubes, old 6x4 and I replaced the RCA Plugs to better ones (higher signal transfer)

syntax February 11, 2013 19:25

WOW, amazing system. You have 5 of the best preamps ever.
Lamm Industries LL2.1, Jeff Rowland Coherence II Series 2, Klyne Audio Arts 7LX-3.5.5b, Aesthetix Callisto Signature.
The Onmigon I was not familiar with, but looking it up on google, that looks like an amazing tube Phono preamp with line stage.
Whats your favorite preamp that you've tried?

doug99 February 11, 2013 15:36

Syntax, Those are nice photos. Thanks for posting them. I know performance on at least the Vibraplane/Benchmate can improve if the platform is preloaded with a steel ballast plate under the turntable to get the total load close to 275 lbs.

You write that the photos are for comparison. Do you care to comment on the different performance of the various isolation platforms?

peterayer February 11, 2013 01:35

Well, not sure I am missing anything...just know you can get better. The EAR MC4 SUT really added a dose of wetness/warmth to each note with no reduction in resolution. Also the imaging was better...bigger, wider, deeper, more see through and each instrument was placed more with in it's own space. The Nagra alone, by comparison, is a bit thin without the external SUT.

As far as priorities...mostly listen to jazz and classical...priorities are naturalness and purity of tone, dynamics, black background...not looking for the ultra detail/freq extremes some SS units can present (for that I can listen to my digital :)

I do have access to demo a Allnic...maybe on Lamm...

jfrech February 10, 2013 19:56

Hello Jfrech,

well, I can write info about them, in a way they are tonally different. May I ask, do you have any sonic priorities, or, do you look for something you did miss before?
The Lamm LP2 is a custom made order with 70 or 71dB gain, Lamm offers this as a special order and it is a remarkable unit from the sonic abilities ...

syntax February 10, 2013 16:59

meant to say LP2 deluxe vs LP2 sig above...

jfrech February 10, 2013 15:37