Mike I followed your system development. I have not read one substantive critque, If there was one. you would address it. As they say in the 'hood,"Don't hate,participate.

gregadd December 25, 2012 14:20

Mike, enjoy your holiday and may Santa bless you with more recordings!

whart December 23, 2012 21:12

Marc,

my wife is 'hopeing' i'm nearing the end of my system development. i think i'm there. reality? for that we need a crystal ball. stay tuned.

one thing for sure is that the higher the resolution of the system the more small things matter. it is hard when what you are hearing is already beyond previous references to keep pushing for better. when does one stop? not sure i have the answer right now; but ask me in a year or so.

i am very happy with my choice of high end audio and music as my hobby to invest my 'funny money' in as it compliments my carreer and life stlye. i can enjoy it daily and i'm at home doing it. it brings me pleasure, makes me feel good, my wife and family are comfortable with it.

Happy Holidays to you and yours!

mikelavigne December 22, 2012 17:16

Geoff,

it was a really fun listening session, and thanks for all the kind words about the system. glad you enjoyed it.

it had the same effect on me of having gone to a live musical event and feeling satisfied and feeling good. that is the way we'd all like it to be. (not saying that it sounds just like live).

i had not really had much chance to listen since the laser adjustments on Monday night as that went till 10pm and then Tuesday night i trimed our Christmas Tree. so i was experiencing the full effect too of the changes along with you and everything was in really in sync.

i look forward to our next session down the road.

mikelavigne December 22, 2012 16:51

Mike, your journey sure looks long and winding, but totally fruitful. I often used to take with a grain of salt audiophiles who commented on small changes in a system leading to significant improvements. Well, my new Zu Definitions 4 spkrs are so transparent to the preceeding audio chain, that even small changes in toe in and support of components can take the sound in wildly varying directions. Luckily I'm getting a handle, and in my own way really reaching a Nirvana like state enjoying my music.
It's not helping the OCD side of my nature however. Your family must be celebrating you pretty much arriving at an end point of sorts, but probably seeing even less of you now that you're spending more and more time enjoying it.
I've spent a big proportion of my income on my evolving system over 20 years (maybe half of my disposable income), but I shudder to think how I could have spent it alternatively leading to frustration eg performance motoring in traffic jams and speed traps all day, or tearing my hair out following my underperforming soccer team all over Europe. Being absorbed in the moment with a system firing on all cylinders is a hell of a hobby and therapy all mixed into one.
Hope you don't object to my metaphysical tone, ha ha. Happy Xmas and New Year to you. And everyone else.

spiritofmusic December 21, 2012 04:06

Mike had me over tonight for a fantastic evening of absolutely stellar listening. I'd heard Mike's system about 2 years ago, with the MM3's and a host of other equipment, and was blown away at the time.

This current system is truly over-the-top. The resolution, bandwidth, integration, and harmony of the whole system is simply wonderful, and sounds like exceptional audio ought to....musical, and emotionally engaging. The MM7's are effortless in their presentation, and have a dynamic envelope that just sucks a person in and then blows you back.

After 3 hours, I had the same kind of feeling I have right after listening to really, really good live music. And that's a sign of good audio.

Thanks again Mike! I can't wait until the next time!
Geoff

geoff727 December 20, 2012 08:29

Mike had me over tonight for a fantastic evening of absolutely stellar listening. I'd heard Mike's system about 2 years ago, with the MM3's and a host of other equipment, and was blown away at the time.

This current system is truly over-the-top. The resolution, bandwidth, integration, and harmony of the whole system is simply wonderful, and sounds like exceptional audio ought to....musical, and emotionally engaging. The MM7's are effortless in their presentation, and have a dynamic envelope that just sucks a person in and then blows you back.

After 3 hours, I had the same kind of feeling I have right after listening to really, really good live music. And that's a sign of good audio.

Thanks again Mike! I can't wait until the next time!
Geoff

geoff727 December 20, 2012 08:26

Peter,

thanks. good setup is good. great setup is better. congrats on your setup with Jim Smith.

since i wrote that post above i've done more listening and the degree of improvement is more profound than i had originally thought. i was not surprised that the laser adjustments made a difference, it was the degree of difference moving the main towers approx 1 inch, and simply aligning the bass towers made.

i must admit when my friend came over with his laser devices i just wanted to listen, which is all i'm doing these days. my friend insisted on taking the time to do the laser adjustments, so i deferred to him and we did it. and now the system is even better and i want to listen even more. i pretty screwed up right now in a good way.....you are right....all i want to do is listen.

btw; i had responded to your friend David's AudiogoN message to me about the proposed visit, but had not heard back from him. i just looked and saw that my response had been filtered by the moderators because i had included my email address....even though his communications had nothing to do with a sale. i did resend my response and then left David a voice message. you guys are most welcome to visit at the time he mentioned and i hope it happens. it would be lots of fun.

best regards,

mikelavigne December 20, 2012 00:51

Mike, Congratulations and I'm not surprised at the positive results from precise speaker alignment. Jim Smith came and voiced my system to my room and we followed a procedure similar to what you and your friend did.

The first thing Jim did was determine the best spot in the room for the listening seat. This was based on the location with the smoothest base response. From there we located the two speakers. The importance of doing this accurately and correctly for one's particular room can not be overstated.

The improvements you describe are very similar to how Jim Smith's work effected the sound of my system. You must be finding it difficult to pull yourself away from your music. Well done. You have a beautiful room and I can only image how good your sound is.

peterayer December 19, 2012 22:59

tonight my friend Andrew came over and laser aligned both towers of my MM7's. earlier he had done a quick alignment of the main towers only. i had simply set the bass towers outside the main towers when the bass towers arrived since i did not want to lose the alignment we had done on the main towers. however this left the bass towers behind the main towers by an inch or so.....since both towers are designed to be aligned on the same radius if you want complete integration at wave launch.

we started off establishing a center line and set up a line on paper attached to a tripod behind my sitting position along with a spot on the carpet below for measuring distance. next we measured the distance between the listening spot and the right bass tower and the center line and bass tower.....and then aligned that bass tower straight at the listening spot....and measured again. next we moved the right main tower to the same distance from the listening spot, and aligned it, then measured again. then we measured from the main tower to the center line. right side mostly done.

next we moved the left bass tower into the same distance both from the listening spot and the center line then aligned it. next we moved the left main tower the same distance from the listening spot and center line and aligned it.

all four towers were now equal distance from the listening spot and aligned to it; and each bass tower was the exact same distance from the center line and so were both main towers.

lastly we first leveled the right main tower with a laser tool, then placed tape on each wall with a mark; then leveled and adjusted the height of the left main tower so the laser rotation hit all the same marks exactly.

now both main towers were level and the exact same height. we did not mess with leveling the bass towers.

first a note that the speakers are still set to flat and no effort has been made for any sort of adjsutments. Kevin Malmgren is planning on coming late January to early March sometime to do final tweaking. by that time i should have approx 1000 hours on the speakers and amps.

results from laser alignment and laser leveling;

--more cohesive sound. not only bass but everything all up a down the frequency range. tighter bass, more connected to images in a real life way. more flow to the music, more energy and life. overall more focus and separation in the soundstage. vocals take on a greater front to back sense of a real person. each instrument seems more complete.

mostly not huge differences, but in some places quite profound. the presentation is a slight bit less 'big' and overall more real. more ease and less sense of being processed. amazing connection to the musical event.

i wonder with other 2 tower set-ups or separate subwoofer set-ups how much this issue has an effect. especially where the bass towers are behind the main towers. how can it not be significant?

mikelavigne December 18, 2012 06:53

You have a beautiful system. May I ask who you had design it and who your dealer is? Do you really think SACD is better than 44.1? What do you use as "reference"? In other words how do you judge your systems accuracy to the original recording?

thanks for the kind comments. the room was originally designed by Chris Huston of Rivers Audio. that was in 2004. in 2010 i made some changes; removing bass trapping in the front corners, closing up some of the ceiling bass trapping, and installing THX 458 Quietrock panels to solidify the bass.

yes; SACD is better than 44.1. but it's not that simple since not all SACD's are equal. some are 44.1 sourced. and not all digital players do top level SACD playback.

i use my 15ips 1/4" and 1/2" reel to reel tape as my reference thru my Studer and have for 5-6 years.

Just wondering how wide a soundstage you get with those big woofers right next to the MR arrays.

i get a huge, very wide soundstage.....limitless really....sometimes around almost behind me if it's on the recording. the bass towers are on the same plane with the main towers, so it does not seem to affect negatively the soundstage width that i can perceive.

I really admire your approach. When your choosing your cables,sources, amps speakers etc. how do you know which ones have as little of their own sound as possible? I means let's say your listening to 3 different amps. How do you know the one that has the least sound of its own? You really have an amazing system!

good question. here is the most objective way i've found to determine whether a system is colored. it has 3 parts. (1) how different does every recording sound? the more different things sound, the less 'color' or sameness you are hearing. (2) how do i feel when i listen? does the music relax me, does it cause me to get involved? does it get my attention? do i want to keep listening? (3) i do have 30-40 reference tracks i've used for 10+ years which tell me where i'm at. between these 3 things over some time i am confident to make good decisions. sometimes there are large differences between products. other times little or no difference. the fact that you never know what you will find gives me confidence in my approach.

as far as whether a system sounds real; 'real' is what our ears are use to. reproduced music aspires to sound real. each of us humans are trained to recognize reality. i trust my ears to tell me how real it sounds.

mikelavigne December 17, 2012 22:32

hey Jake,

great to hear from you. the monoblocks are awesome, really no other way to put it. they do things that are so nuanced and subtle even when the music is ultradynamic.....so easily. absolutely natural and harmonically complex. the mid range is tube like and everything is so vivid and life like. my own holodeck.

i love the Reed tonearms, and thought they (2 '2P's) were subperb on my Beat. i've not personally used a 12" Reed in my system, so i cannot compare it specifically to the Durand Talea 1 or 2. my opinion is that the Talea is a significant step up in life and detail over the Reed's to my ears. i had the Reed 2P mounted on the Beat along side the Talea 2 both with A90's for 9 months so i have a pretty fair idea of how they compare. understand we are taking degrees of good here.....nothing wrong with the Reed's in their own right.

the Durand Telos is a whole different league beyond the Talea 2 (and everything else too for that matter).

just my 2 cents, YMMV, and all that stuff.

email me your phone number and i'm happy to get into more detail about it.

as far as digital i'm so happy with the Playback Designs MPS-5 for not only digital discs but i'm mostly using the MPS-5 as a server dac and listening to dsd over USB. even though i have 4000 CD's and SACD's it's rare to play a disc.

i compare the digital to my vinyl and tape every day and never feel it's anything but natural and easy to listen to. nothing clinical or whitewashed about it. it's cut from the same cloth as the analog but not to the goodness level of those. i'm very happy.

in the interests of full disclosure i've gone away from paying attention to other digital dacs and players. i'm just happy. dsd and 2xdsd as well as all the PCM formats sound superb.

at shows when i walk around and listen to other digital i'm always relieved to listen to the Playback's again after other digital. but honestly i don't really pay much attention to other digital. likely there are other good ones too.

best regards and Happy Holidays to you,

mikelavigne December 17, 2012 15:00

I really admire your approach. When your choosing your cables,sources, amps speakers etc. how do you know which ones have as little of their own sound as possible? I means let's say your listening to 3 different amps. How do you know the one that has the least sound of its own? You really have an amazing system!

THX,

Panonica

panonica December 16, 2012 15:39

Hi Again,

Just wondering how wide a soundstage you get with those big woofers right next to the MR arrays.

THX,

Panonica

panonica December 16, 2012 15:31

Hi Mike,

You have a beautiful system. May I ask who you had design it and who your dealer is? Do you really think SACD is better than 44.1? What do you use as "reference"? In other words how do you judge your systems accuracy to the original recording?

THX,

Panonica

panonica December 16, 2012 14:00

Evening Mike,
Like always it seems great things are always evolving at the "barn"!

I am most curious as to how you have found the new monoblocks for the last three months I have them on short list for my Focal stella utopias...

As for the durand tonearms i am currently using a 10.5 and 12" Reed which is quite easy to set up and holds it;s mark but i have heard such stellar reviews on the durands that i would like your opinion for them on my Steve Dobbins "beat" tt please...
Lastly my Esoteric digital [po1.do1.gorb clock etc] are champs at resolving minute ambient information with great resolve but seems to leave the music without a tonal vibrancy due to it's analitical preferences leaving behind a chalky whitening of the textures which i find fatiguing, any recomondations?

Thanks as always and a healthy and happy new years and a safe family Christmas to you and yours!!

Azjake

azjake December 16, 2012 08:43

Hi Mike, yes, looking at your room its not hard to imagine your dilemma. I've missed most of my teams games in recent times LOL

Thanks for the kind comment, you've also nailed it. It is all about the music and my system is plenty musical for my tastes.

All the best
Dan

defride December 13, 2012 20:07

Defride,

thanks for the kind comments.

funny you should mention 'just one more tune'. since i've had these amps and speakers most/all of my other 'free-time' activities have mostly ceased and i just want to listen. it's hard to stop listening to do anything else. i have not watched football (American style that is) lately at all. i'm just loving it.

'just one more tune' sums it up nicely.

btw, nice Kharma-EMM system you have there. bet it makes great music.

mikelavigne December 13, 2012 15:54

Hadn't seen the big changes made this year. All out assault, yes, that sums it up!

Heard those 458s in a more modest system and that was mighty impressive. Expect you're finding it difficult to resist the temptation for 'just one more tune' these days...

defride December 13, 2012 11:12

The Westwick is used in many recording studios (although with all the "hot mastering" making so many modern recordings flat, lifeless and just plain unlistenable, maybe this is not such a compliment LOL!). I don't have the facility to have a permanent installation away from the system, but hard wired into my dedicated spur it sure looks earthquake proof (actually not an issue in the UK!) as a final power solution. At present a diminutive 40lb 4kVA $750 unit, not even audiophile grade, handilly outperforms my prev $7000 Burmester 948 conditioner.
To put power into perspective, in the UK our line voltage is (meant to be ) 230V. My belief is that swings +/- 5% puts tremendous demands on audio components, esp. power amps. The Burmester regularly showed fluctuations, moment to moment, of +/- 20%!
Placing the Burmester after the installation of the balanced transformer showed fluctuations no greater than +/- 1.5%. Nuff said.

spiritofmusic December 12, 2012 20:01

hi Marc,

there is always a way to ground electronic gear assuming it's chassis is grounded; however you may need to consult with the manufacturer.

as far as the 'dark arts' of magical tweaks my mind is open, but not so much my checkbook. i'll try some easy to use tweaks that are not expensive. i'm not going to get into particular one's; but i have used some slightly crazy one's and had percieved positive effects. however; not enough to tout them. i have no interest in any blind testing of them so let's say they are 'guilty pleasures' which are at least for entertainment value.

my experience is that there are many counter-intuative things that make positive differences and if you are not open minded and open-eard then how can you learn? yet, a fool and his money are soon parted. so common sense and humility are what i try to use.

for something like the Troy at it's stratospheric price, it will be listen first and then spend.....for sure. not a casual investment.

i agree with you that an 8kva Isolation Transformer would be a benefit. just make sure that there is no excess mechanical noise from it (hum) and that it does not limit dynamics. not all isolation transformers are created equal. i don't know the Westwick, it could be wonderful.

mikelavigne December 11, 2012 13:40

Hmm Mike, budget blown is a concept I'm well aware of having shelled out a tidy sum on upgraded tt/arm/speakers/stand.
I can quite understand how you'd need to be fully convinced to go down another uber expensive tweaking path.
One thing re the Troy grounding system I don't get is what to do if your components dont have grounding posts. Anyhow $12000+ sure is a big consuderation.
Btw, what is your opinion on the plethora of expensive "enviromental" tweaks out there eg Shakti Stones/Blackbodies/QOL Completion Device etc etc? They never seem to divulge their modus operandi, seem to be very overpriced, and very system dependent. One could easily pay the cost of a total component series overhaul in going down this path.
My main dilemma in having emptied the bank account, but still tempting to refine my system (trans Fi direct rim drive tt/linear tracking arm/EMM Labs CDSA/Hovland HP200& Radia amps/ZU Definitions 4 spkrs) further, is to investigate all tube amps (my spkrs are 100dB eff with built in powered subs) with SET 845 or OTL, upgrade my cart/phono stage, or go for further system wide upgrades (consistent cabling/power cords/more robust 8kVA balanced power transformer). On the last note I'm really tempted by a pro audio application Westwick Audio 8kVA isolation transformer, 200lb in weight, bullet proof overkill and I'm sure the best upgrade I'll ever make.

spiritofmusic December 11, 2012 08:43

if someone wants to drag some Tripoint Troy grounding gear over here i'm game. i'm not interested in their power conditioners, but am open to the grounding approach.

truth be told i'd considered it myself based on what i've read, but the budget is quite blown for awhile and Miguel is pretty proud of them. the top of line boxes and cables are astonishingly expensive for their intended use. not to say that they may not be worth it in a system liike mine where all other bases are very covered.

mikelavigne December 11, 2012 00:41

Power is uber important IMO, and it looks for all intent and purposes that Mike has chosen a SOTA option. You can spend more on single box solutions (I have). The burning question is what works best. I was steered away from the isolation transformer route for various reasons, some of which I am sure are myth. If I had known about the Equitech option, I might have gone with that instead. One of the most interesting and impactful areas for power isolation and conditioning is digital. This is an excerpt from the Equitech 10WQ review in 6Moons:

"Although I am a committed vinylphile, balanced power offers solutions for the digital side as well. While hum is often the noise indicator for analogue sources, it’s a little different for digital with the inherent noise from its power supplies, HF pulses and jitter. Jitter is distortion caused by timing and deviation issues in the high-frequency digital signal stream. Martin adds that "digital jitter is caused in part by high-frequency electrical interference approximating the bit stream rate of the digital signal." Specifically he compares digital jitter to intermodulation distortion in the analog realm where each piece of digital equipment cumulatively adds to the jitter problem.

The claimed improvement from balanced power is startling. Martin claims that the Equi=Tech system reduces average jitter by up to 50% and peak jitter by up to 66%, with the only variable being the change from standard to balanced power. The high-frequency noise reduction claims are equally as dramatic. "... nulling low-frequency harmonic current in essence 'knocks the legs out from under' the high-frequency harmonics in the AC system. Everything collapses." Bold claims to be sure and I have no way to prove or disprove them but Martin cites tests in both audio and technical environments. Oak Ridge National Laboratory was having significant problems with an electron microscope blurring the images of silicon atoms. The cause was tracked to minor timing errors in their digital data stream. The change to balanced power reduced jitter and cleared up the images."

The Oak Ridge reference is interesting but anecdotal. Nordost has co-developed software that measures changes in jitter following system changes such switching out cables:

(http://www.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/index.html)

That software could obviously be used to quantify things. My conditioner was used recently in a preliminary study on MRI image quality with positive results.

Mike, you stated:

stand alone power conditioning boxes are like toys in comparison. i respect that stand alone power conditioners can improve things in systems, and not everyone can logistically install a whole system isolation transformer. but many times stand alone power conditioners can end up being trade-offs reducing dynamics while lowering noise particularly on amplifiers since they can't store enough energy.

Given that the nature of this hobby seems to be additive, there is only one way to find out if that statement is true. I heard a demo of the Tripoint products after hours at Axpona last year, and it was impressive. Mike, it might worth checking out the Troy grounding box. I plan to. I believe a phile in your neck of the woods has one now and his mind is blown. As a disclaimer, I have no affiliation with Tripoint...

agear December 10, 2012 19:05

Hi mike
Wow ,that 's simply magnifique !!!!,......must be a major boost in QOL index....( quality of life) even if it's just few hours every day......you must be in pure sonic Happiness
Regards from your dim and distant past....vsa vr9se/ vr 7se days
Sam

asks40 December 09, 2012 21:40