Hi again Mike,

Can we discuss turntables. Over here in the UK I use the Prometheus, WWW.prometheusaudio.co.uk

Interestingly a manufacturer that swears by the Durand tonearm. Do you feel your at the stage where you feel your analogue front end can go no further or are you testing different options?

Regards

Steve

cyclopse January 26, 2013 21:23

in the center on the wall between my speakers i have a triple stack of RPG Skylines. the Skylines are a very agressive precise diffuser for short distance first reflections and are ideal for enhancing the coherence of my center image. when i installed them i got much better images like focusing a camera lens. i did experiment with side by side and taller, but found that for my room 3 stacked was best.

behind and to the sides of the speakers (also in the ceiling wells) are Auralex T-Fusors. the T-Fusor is an inexpenive ($59 each) mild diffuser that primarily reduces slap echo without also changing the tonality. they attach with velcro tape to my hardwood walls and cleaned up the 'slappy' echo, busyness, and image smearing. i would not use the T-Fusors in first reflection spots. they are for large spaces just to scatter reflections more randomly. they can be filled if you need to dampen the high frequecies.

mikelavigne January 22, 2013 01:07

I notest that you install severall difusor panels, in the centre os the seakers, in the wall, you install 3 difusor panels, and side by side the speakers, more 6 each side.
Can you describe the sound differences with this panels?

shade_of_pale January 21, 2013 13:49

thanks Lawrence.

Equi-tech has GFI modules for every circuit inside my Equi=tech panel.

what my commercial electrician told me (rightly or wrongly) is that if i did not have liguid inside my room i did not need the GFI's. that they are mainly for kitchens, bathrooms, laundry rooms, garages and anywhere you have mixed uses with liguid.

i cannot say about the insurance issue and will defer to your perspective.

mikelavigne January 20, 2013 23:26

Hello just some thoughts...Mike you know that since you have "balanced power" meaning both legs are "hot" you cannot use just plan ol duplex outlets...you need gfi outlets!...if your room burns down and the insurance company finds duplex outlets they will not pay the claim!!

Lawrence
Fidelity Forward

lharasim January 20, 2013 19:10

Thank you Mike. Very informative.

tpaxadpom January 20, 2013 17:43

Tpaxadpom,

here is what i posted about 18 months ago regarding your question;

my most recent humbling experience regarding distortion is with duplex outlets.

when i built my room 7 years ago i used Jena Labs cryo'd outlets. i'd used them in my previous room and liked them. then 5 years ago a friend told me about the Oyaide R-1 outlets. i tried 5 of them in my room; i still kept 5 of the Jena Labs outlets next to the new R-1's. the R-1's were much better in every way. lower noise, increased vividness, better leading edge precision, more body. i had a number of local friends visit to hear the A/B with the Jena's. easy improvement. i replaced the other 5 with the R-1's....and have enjoyed them for the last 5 years.

a few weeks back i was speaking to this same friend about a Lp disk flattner since my new NVS tt does not have vaccuum hold down. i asked him if he had any other items that had rocked his world lately, and he reluctantly mentioned the Furutech GPX-D Rhodeium duplex outlets. he said it reluctantly since he sold me the R-1's 5 years prior. he said the GPX-D outlets were 100% copper contacts, that the R-1's used an alloy and did grip well, but the pure copper sounded better. the GPZ-D outlets solved the pure copper grip problem with a stainless steel band behind the pure copper to allow a proper grip on the plug. also; on the GPX-D everything was grounded and it was a solid as a rock. he said he was replacing his R-1's with the GPX-D's as he could afford to.

this person has high cred to me so i figured why not?

so 2 Sunday's ago he came over and installed 10 of them. btw; after he removed the first R-1 he demonstrated the build difference by dropping both outlets on my countertop; the R-1 had a kind of a hollow prang when it hit, the GPX-D a solid 'thud'.

after installation, at first it seemed like they were better but the sound was closed in and the life was missing. then i went around the back of my speakers and turned the tweeters up from -1.8 to -1. the (previously un-noticed) distortion (brightness) of the R-1's had caused me to need to reduce my tweeter output 1.8 notches below 'flat'. now i only needed 1 notch below flat to get the life with the GPX-D's.

my bass was now more linear, with increased dynamic snap and slam. more ambient information. there was a more natural flow and energy. but the biggest benefit was the precision of everything. every recording was now more solid. little things which i thought had been part of the music were now gone and only music remained. this was a big step. the music was more involving and compelling.

my power grid and system noise floor is amazingly low between the Equi=tech, power cords, and all the reasonance control. i cannot say how much difference these duplex outlets would make in every system. but on the path to musical reproduction truth these $240 each outlets really earned their keep.

and until i heard the absense of distortion from the R-1's i would never have thought it was there.

i am very happy with the Furutech GTX-D Rhodium outlets.

mikelavigne January 20, 2013 17:36

Mike your system as always impressive!
Do you mind sharing differences between your new Furutech outlets and Oyaide R1 you had in the past?

tpaxadpom January 20, 2013 07:05

Mike, I've suggested earthing/grounding as a possible option re further tweaking. I'm wondering if you feel this is a logical complement alongside balanced power. Tbh, beyond spending cash on supports, cables and an overkill 8kVA balanced transformer, I wasn't expecting to fork out on any other areas. I'm conciously avoiding all 'black magic' tweaks like Shakti Stones, Blackbodies, Quantum Field Organisers etc etc.
I considered Troy for a couple of milliseconds, but it's seriously out of my price range (fully configured, over half the cost of my whole system!). But there is a (reasonably) cost effective alternative: Entreq Audio Tellus grounding boxes and Eartha cables - in my system this would involve linking an Eartha cable each between: my phono stage, and 2 from the preamp rca jacks closest to cd input and output to power amp, all back to the Tellus passive grounding box. With 1 box and 3 cables this equates to about $3000.
I know like you that moving to balanced power has really reduced ground noise, loops and the overall noise floor. Indeed in my rig 4kVA of isolation is giving me an 'after midnight' sound all day long, so I'm finding it hard to believe there is a whole layer more of power related grunge to eliminate.
What's your gut instinct on grounding/earthing? If I go down this path it will delay what I'm considering is the definitive solution 8kVA pro studio balanced transformer, which with 85kg of copper in the transformer should outlive me!

spiritofmusic January 15, 2013 01:26

Thanks for the write up. I am not down on my system. That's why I put the :) in there. How about the Mono's. Are they light years ahead of the 2ch one? I would love to have the 108 in my system, but alas, that probably won't happen. Getting back to the speakers, the only MM series I have heard have been the MM2's at Barry's place a long time ago. They sounded really good. So I can just imagine more of that and get a feeling for what the MM7's are like.

For me, again I am not slamming my own system. I have listened to some music lately(SRV on vinyl). Tin Pan Alley just sounds insane to me. It is really good. I also listened to some harder stuff that you probably would not be into. It's really heavy but it sounded awesome. Plus, another band named TOOL just sounds so good when I play it along with the Allman Brothers. So trust me, I am not down on my system. Especially when I think about what I paid for my speakers ;).

Now am I done? Nope. I am still trying to get more out of what I have. I plan on getting the Wave Kinetic speaker feet and the external motor control for my Well Tempered table. I am also going to get a matching Live Live speaker cable for my center and a matching Live Live balanced cable for my amp that goes to my center on my Integra. I also want to get the Wave Kinetic component feet for my OPPO BR player and I want to change out the power cords for my Bryston amps. I realize that my amps are the week link but I am limited in space so I am trying to get them to sound as good as they can.

Does that mean I am done? Again, who knows. Depending on what the external motor does for my TT I may think about a better phono preamp. The only other thing to do would be to change speakers. That would require some effort and thought on my part. But if that does happen, it would not be for a while. Again, thanks for that great explanation. Did you need to do anything else with room treatments with these new speakers? Or even though they are different, the room is still friendly to them. Plus, it's pretty cool that the designer will be coming out to the final tweaking.

For me, I think I have had good advice from many people and it has helped me get my system to where it is. Enjoy the Monoliths. I am sure it was quite the adventure setting everything up.

mikeduke January 14, 2013 19:38

yesterday playing vinyl for some visitors i did have a new 'high peak watt output' of 258 watts on the 458's. i played the RTI pressed ZZ Top 'Tres Hombres' cut of 'LaGrange' at warp factor 9.

sonically there was no drama.....no strain....and no bleeding ears. just big smiles. very physical bass felt in your body but in service to the music. earlier i had played a great blues tape and that was more mellow but similar in the 'felt' aspect of the bass.....but only hit about 60 peak watts as it was lower in frequency so more the sub tower than the 458's.

mikelavigne January 14, 2013 13:33

hi Mike,

thank you for the kind words. but stop that with the depreciation of your own excellent system. i know you have put much effort into building it and you should be proud of it. i'm sure it makes great music and puts a smile on your face.

as far as MM3 compared to MM7; the diffference is more than just bass response.

there is a family resembelance to the sound in the overall beauty, coherence, and naturalness. the MM3's are balanced and tonally right and magical in the lack of 'hifi'ish' peaks and edge. the MM3's have that full bottom end with great articulation, dynamics and extension. the MM3's are balanced thru the mid-bass and sound like music.

the MM7's start with all those same things but take them all to another level or three. the actual differences with the MM7 start with a completely different crossover. from my perspective this is the heart of the difference between the 2 speakers. then you add 4 extra 11" ceramic matrix woofers per side, which allows the mid-range to cover much less frequency. all those woofers need very little excursion in the very important mid bass region. the combination of the crossover and woofers results in a 'unheard of to my ears' magical mid-bass linearity and dynamics. it is simply so refined and effortless in this frequency range. it does not draw attention to itself. but when you are listening the music simply flows and energizes. so much detail, so real. no matter what you throw at it you get music only. the mid range has more clarity, the mid-bass is cleaner and more energetic. you have 96db, 6 ohm efficiency which allows the amp to be more linear. so when you compare this region to the already top notch MM3 you have really gone to a wonderful place. you have to recalibrate your ears and musical memory to a new place of what is possible (from a pretty good place it was prior).

as far as the bass towers and what they bring over the MM3's....it is similar to the crossover and extra 4 woofers. first, the MM3 the 2 powered subwoofers per side covered up to 100hz, even in some rooms up to 120hz. whereas in the MM7's you have 4 powered subwoofers per side only covering up to 30hz-40hz. right now mine are set at come up to around 32-33hz. and the main towers decend down to around 20hz (-6db). the result of all this ability to move air in a linear way is a linearity which must be heard, and an effortlessness that, again, does not draw attention to itself. the bass just happens. no drama. whatever you throw at it gets to your ears. and it is so seamless. right. compared to the MM3's the MM7's take things to another level. a level your reference did not know existed. with the MM3's i was 100% satisfied with the bass performance. now i see another level.

i can play anything with great bass dynamics or extension and quickly your ears are not glued to that 'bass event'. instead, you come back to the musical direction since you adapt to the fact that there is no question you are hearing what happened. the bass fireworks become what they ought to be, music. when i have visitors i will play a few moments of a bass torture test. a track that might have challenged other speaker systems to some degree. we quickly move on back to music since there is no drama to wondering whether it can do it. the bass performance serves the music without limit. the MM3's were capable and great, the MM7's rule both in linearity and in dynamics.

one very interesting thing about the the bass towers and the linearity of the bass; when i added the bass towers to the main towers the mid-range and high frequencies got much better. a very significant change. linear bass along with very deep extension simply completes the musical picture in a way that startled me. how could that subwoofer tower make the high better? i suppose it's the overtones and balance which accounts for it.

i know i can play any type of music and the MM7's will express it properly. the recording will be portrayed. so my focus is on the music as an experience. the MM3's gave me that feeling, the MM7's give me quite a bit more of it and do that on a level i have not otherwise experienced.

overall there is simply such a lack of a sense of a speaker or system, just music. i got that with the MM3's, but much more with the MM7's.

am i done with tweaking the speakers? no. and three times recently helpful friends have assited me in getting a little closer to the ideal set-up. and in a month or so the designer is suppose to visit and do a final tweaking of the set-up.

mikelavigne January 12, 2013 16:10

hi Teck,

sorry for the late response, busy week.

it was great seeing you and Chun, and again thank you for the support and guidance finding more truth from the system. i'll keep working on it. i am enjoying the music.

i do hope Pradeep can visit.

best regards,

mikelavigne January 12, 2013 15:05

hi Marc,

sorry for the delay in my response, it has been a busy week.

i'm happy for you that you feel you are at a good place and direction in system development....and that it's coming together for you with all the details. it does require considerable effort and commitment to cover all the bases. then just when you think you are there you discover another layer of the onion to peel back and go deeper.

it's nice to hear you are stepping back and just enjoying.

i do think my major 'peeling days' are over. i'm down to tweaking what i have.....and expect that to take quite some time.

i'm in no hurry.

mikelavigne January 12, 2013 15:01

Hey Mike. I haven't been in here in a bit. What can I say. MM7's and the 458's? I am speechless. Plus that TT and all the other gear. I really don't know what to say. I usually say "man, I can imagine that sounds awesome." But I can't say that now. I can't even begin to fathom what that may sound like. Congrats on putting together a fantastic system. I still have the 1027's and Well Tempered table. I almost feel like I shouldn't be allowed to type here :). Anyway, again, congrats on a simply fantastic system.

I may go back and try to find what you wrote but if you could give a quick run down on the main differences between the MM3 and MM7. I assuming it's just more then greater bass response. Enjoy that setup.

mikeduke January 08, 2013 13:29

Mike,

your system is where it should be....Congratulations!!!

Both Chun and I enjoyed our visit and really am happy for you..

As you said, just sit back and listen and enjoy tweaking the last 3%...

Salute!!

PS... next time i will convince Pradeep to come visit too.

teck5 January 06, 2013 18:12

Hi Mike, interesting you're in the process of consolidation and winding down on significant, if any, further upgrades. I think I'm approaching the same stage now. But not 12 months ago, far from it.
At that time, I became extremely frustrated with my system: I'd always been a pro analog man, but upgrades, esp. to my digital (settling on an EMM labs CDSA SE) switched my allegiance almost entirely to cd! Oh, the ignominy!
But 6 months ago I discovered the delights of a direct rim drive tt and air bearing linear tracking arm, and a whole swathe of cloying artificial analogue warmth was stripped away, completely reasserting analogue's superiority over digital. Soon after I upgraded my speakers to full range drivers/non crossovered technology which enhanced this further.
My conclusion is, maybe like you, that I've removed "cognitive dissonance" from the system. In other words, I've achieved a massive reduction in colourations, and consequent increase in transparency and ease, which means I'm not subconciously analysing the music as I'm listening to it. So great to not 'hear the system', but 'hear thru it'.
My remaining journey is to improve the environment of the system, and indeed for the first time I'm finding discernable changes when experimenting with balanced power, acoustic treatments, supports and cables/cords. So I'm not totally done just yet. But other than a possible cart option which I believe may top the neutrality of the analogue front end further (Soundsmith Straingauge), I'm done with major component upgrades, and like you I'm sure, I'm pretty happy about that. I wonder if lack of cognitive dissonance means I've got one step closer to the best of live music?

spiritofmusic January 05, 2013 21:56

hi Steve,

i'll consider your idea. although i'm skeptical that the sonic refinment of the room and system can be captured that way to a high enough degree to demonstrate anything helpful. but i've never done anything like that and rarely even watch Youtube myself, so maybe i'm not giving it it's due.

on the other hand; my Son did capture some 4K video off of Youtube we played on my Sony 4K projector.....which had promise.

my friend who did the 2 Youtube videos of my room might be here this weekend. maybe we can do it then. and i did just get a Nikon D600 which potentially can do reasonably high quality 1080P video but i'm not really set up for any quality sound recording with it.

i appreciate the interest in the room.

mikelavigne January 04, 2013 13:59

Greetings from the United Kingdom.

I notice on You Tube there are a couple of clips of your system. It would be wonderful if we could have a video of a complete track uploaded to You Tube so enthusiasts all around the world could get a flavour of what you have created.

Regards

Steve

cyclopse January 03, 2013 20:42

David,

interesting you bring up the Avalon Ascents. When i first met Winston Ma (prominent NW local audiophile and high end audio icon), he had Avalon Ascents in his wonderful room and it sounded great. later he switched to a few other speakers but ended up with the big Avalon Sentinels. i have not heard it for 4-5 years now, but i preferred those Ascent's to any of his other speakers including the Sentinals. so i can understand what you liked about them.

i would not know that they 'aren't any good anymore'.....they were pretty special sounding to my ears in Winston's room.....over 10 years ago.

enjoy the music!

mikelavigne December 27, 2012 01:15

correction- mental block, but i heard (in a great room/system) the Avalon Ascents - the top model at the time with huge external potted crossovers-
and listened to an LP of Charlie Byrd playing tunes on a classical guitar.
i was totally enthralled, and the dealer claimed the speakers were brand new and hadn't been broken in yet. Astonishingly beautiful sound nonetheless.
nowadays those speakers aren't "any good anymore", etc. etc.
oh well, what the H_ll, right, Mike? i am happy you are grooving along and
have a big smile on your face, plus you have a nice family as the ultimate accessory (!) to the stereo.
i have no family but i get BY with some JIVE as well as a little Beethoven NUMBER FIVE...
(in SACD of course...).

french_fries December 26, 2012 05:05

David; good morning (or good afternoon in Florida) to you!

down at the bottom of the hill from my home, about 5-7 minutes away, is a jazz club where there is live (mostly acoustic) music every night. 2-3 times a month i go to dinner there and listen for awhile, then come home and listen in my room. however great sounding i may think my system might be, it will never get 100% of the whole picture of live music. period. for certain aspects of the sound it does not really get close.

OTOH i many times prefer my system's sound to the sound of live music, it simply sounds better to my ears. i have no agenda to get anyone to agree with me....but that is my perspective. i do think my system, with the right recording, can sound 'like live' but don't claim it is the same.

so don't worry; i will never claim to have captured the complete picture of live music in my room. as far as orchestral; i don't listen to enough live orchestral music to really put forth an intellegent claim as to how close my system comes. i do particularly enjoy full scale orchestral music on my system now, and likley 50-60% of my listening is to large scale classical. it is so powerful sounding, and the system can capture macrodynamics very effortlessly.

i do have 30+ 15ips 1/4" classical master dubs which are very very good, but so are my thousands of classical Lps and digital recordings. the enjoyment of this music is a big part of the hobby to me, and how my system can now make these sound alive is one of the huge payoffs of all my system development.

as far as stopping in my pursuit of ultimate music reproduction; i would not use the word 'stop', to me it's more that i'm where i want to be. and it's now time for me to concentrate on my retirement and not commit any more assets to the hobby.

i cannot predict the future. if i were to hear something that took things further who knows what i might do. but i have no thoughts to any future system changes. i do look forward to focusing more on new music acquisitions, which i've been pulled away from recently by system changes and budget limitations.

enjoy the music on your wonderful system. don't worry about what others say. best wishes for a Happy Holidays and properous New Year!

mikelavigne December 25, 2012 19:03

Part of me wishes to see if you will finally settle down and not make any further "improvements" to this system, while the other (the "dark side") anticipates that you will learn of/hear a new tweak or component that will dramatically improve
this set-up still further. While i greatly admire the system as well as the way you have done the "matching" of the various parts so well, i wonder how much resolution is needed to hear Sinatra's voice any better, or a Stradivarius violin's tone quality, Ella singing Gershwin, etc.
As for Beethoven #5 (or #9 for that matter), can you say that your system
(or anyone's) can even come "close" to a live performance? If you can honestly say "YES", then that's great, i am really happy to know that. But...OTOH, has anyone
really been able to mic an orchestra well enough, transfer the true sound to tape (or whatever), and put it on an LP or CD (i don't suppose the Tape Project has a copy of Beethoven symphonies for sale?), and make the claim that they have finally done it, you will get to hear this music as if it was "Live"? i will even put up with a bit of hiss, or some other very low-level background noise. I just want to know if you can trick the human ear/brain into thinking you are hearing the real thing, or....not.
Technology has come a long way, and so has the aesthetic level of this hobby (in spite of the obvious objections to cost factors). i have heard the Wilson WAMMS, the ALEXANDRIAS, AVALON Eclipse's, MBL Radiostrahlers, B&W Nautilus snails, B&W 800 Matrix, Magnapan 20.1's, Sonus Fabers, and Von Schweikert VR-9's, and many other systems/speakers. nothing quite as good as your room and equipment together in one place, but some pretty heavy hitters nonetheless. Personally i would have been perfectly happy with MOST of the ultra-high end systems i auditioned, but you seem to have a difficult time reaching the point where you just don't care anymore.
so again, i hope you can STOP and take some time off from wanting to improve
ANYTHING. BUT IF YOU CAN'T, maybe you could just let us know why.
P.S.- Happy Holidays from sunny FLORIDA and stay warm everybody...!

french_fries December 25, 2012 18:01

Greg,

thanks. my system and my own knowledge has grown from lots of feedback (not all of it initially accepted by me positively) over the years, it's an important part of the hobby. i appreciate the support and encouragement from many too. i try not to take critique or negativity personally and remember this is suppose to be about music and fun and a hobby and not life and death.

i'm enjoying the music more, and thinking about my system less, than i ever have. last night i particularly enjoyed my wife, son, daughter and son-in-law listening with me. it was fantastic. they love jazz and blues and we just rocked the night away. it was the best.

and i totally agree with what you are saying, spending time putting energy into negativity is a complete waste.

cheers!

mikelavigne December 25, 2012 17:21

Bill,

thankyou and all the best Holidays to you and your family.

happy listening!

mikelavigne December 25, 2012 16:52