I am back, folks. My system was the third most talked about system after Mike Levine's and Albert Porter's.
For some personal reasons I took a break from audio. But I am back with good news and not so thrilling news. The not so thrilling news is that the system is unchanged. And the good news is that it is so hard to improve it, regardless of the price -- I do not know what to upgrade, except may be cables -- as I hit the peak performance from my perspective. The sound thrills me still every time I listen. Still, 140plus tubes, embedded in the finest of amps and pre-amp driving a legendary speaker that can give a good run for money to speakers costing $100k plus, all making heat and magic at the same time. Wow, life is good.
Acknowledgements:
There are several people I wish to acknowledge who have helped me a great deal in building this system:
1. Charlie, who designed one of the finest preamps. Although, TRL Dude is marginally better, the Charlie X-2 will stay with me for ever and will continue to provide listening pleasures
2, Paul Weitzel of Tube Research Labs (TRL) for his helping on tuning the amps and on his feedback on many other technical aspects of the system at the micro and macro level.
3. David Royalty for building nice wooden battery casing for the TRL moded Sony CD player and also for numerous technical feedbacks.
4. Ivan Li of Hong Kong for showing me the insight into planar speaker placement.
5. Steve Dobbins of Xact audio for coming all the way from Idaho to install the tonearm and overall turntable tune up.
6. many visitors who have graced my listening room with their presence.
7. All audio friends who are not mentioned above.
8. Audiogoners who continue to post interesting and thought provoking comments here.
I too have the wimpy Tube Research Labs amps (GT200). I sold the JM Labs Nova Utopia speakers and bought the Martin Logan Summit Xs. With the TRL I can't believe what I am hearing. I wish I could hear the Apogees, I bet it is mind blowing.
I have always enjoyed reading your thread...and now have returned to ask a few questions. I am contemplating a long-term 'final' speaker move and have started thinking about your Apogee Full Ranges. I already know I love the mids/alacrity of Apogee speakers...but I also am a big fan of outright effortless slam which I have enjoyed with my big X1 Wilsons (slightly modd'd in a few key areas).
How does the Apogee Full Range do on outright sub-40hz effortless slam at volume?
I listen to all manner of music, but the ability to effortlessly deliver that super low-end slam at volume is important (even if I rarely listen at volume).
I just put two new .1uF Jupiter Coppers as bypasses in my Duetta Sig crossover, one bypassing a 15uF section and one bypassing a 10uF section, each containing Sonicaps. They replaced some Russian teflons that just sounded a bit too forward and hard when things got loud.
Well, that hardness is gone. The extension is there. I don't hear any of that discontinuity that sometimes accompanies the use of a bypass cap. Very natural and balanced with no over-emphasis at any frequency. Space and air as good as the teflons without any drawback that I can hear. Took about 100 hours or so to get there though.
I also used the new Jupiters (1.0uF) as the coupling cap in my phono stage. Just awesome. Read the few reviews that are out there already. I hear all the same things they said, so I won't repeat it here. I don;t have Duelands to compare them to but I am a happy purchaser.
The finest cap I have yet to hear in electronics is the new Jupiter copper foil cap. Tops Duelund CAST in every application I have used them thus far. The speaker values are due out soon. They are very special indeed and affordable.
I think the Rike caps (in a speaker crossover) are excellent. Musical, detailed, without being tilted or in your face, and with a natural, textured and dynamic sound. Very similar to the Duelund copper VSF tone, but I think with more dynamic breadth.
I cannot really comment on their bottom end as my speaker has no cap there, but I suspect these guys know what they are doing there too!
I hear Jupiter have a new cap which is said to be a giant killer too, but I have not heard or tried it yet.
I have played with many caps. The Mundorf sliver in oil, Mundorf silver gold, Mundorf silver gold in oil, duelund copper VSF, Duelund cast and Rike caps are all world class and have their own characters. The Rike is a sound leaning towards Duelund for nowhere near the money of the Duelund.
It soulds like the new Jupiters are coming to market imminently. Would love to know how they might compare to the Rikes. Their prototypes already have the hype of being 99% of what the Dueland's deliver and even a bit more musical.
Just to let you know, I finally unleashed my soldering iron and put in a pair of Rike Caps in the mid range horn of the AG Trio xover. It replaced a pair of Mundorf S/G in oil caps which are excellent. As mentioned between Duelund & Mundorf you have the best caps the world has to offer.
Well enter the Rike. As mentioned only across a limited part of the audio spectrum, but an important one. Well all I can say is these are excellent caps. Natural sounding like the Duelund, wide like the Mundorf, but also very dynamic. Nice timbre with lots of detail. Almost from the 1st minute it was apparent. In the passing hours and days they settled in to give magnificent sound! And for 1/2 the price of the Mundorf and about 1/10 the price of the Duelund.
I love products that are just perform brilliantly and are (almost) affordable. No umming and ahhhing. Just excellent. Solid German engineering once again.
Maybe it's time for me to buy German amps too? Rike amps are said to be amazing? Maybe it's not a good idea to have a 3rd Rike?! Sorry ;-)
Its always good to chat and learn of people's experiences. And I enjoy our chats. You always are clear.
It's very interesting that not many liked the "lighter" ribbon. The "heavier" ribbon seeming to have more substance to the sound. I went for the original type new ribbons.
I cannot remember now as it's quite a few years ago, but I believe it only was the tweeters which were available in that "lighter" model? Was there a different corrigation he tried too? He did a lot of experimentation I know that.
Most importantly Graz has kept the brand alive and many Apogees survive today due to his obsession. He was always very helpful and knowledgeable. Great for a product that went out of production so many years ago. They brought me much joy.
I'm donning my 10 gallon hat as I type, and I think I look pretty good in it too! I will be in touch when I'm back in the US and will find a good excuse to come and darken your door as soon as possible.
Chadeffect, first of all you are welcome to visit me and listn to my system. Second, I enjoy doing constructive debate with you.
You mentioned that Graz ribbons were better. See, that is the point I tried to make. You compared old ribbons with new ribbons, Obviously the new would be better (because of new constructions primarily). You can only compare original and updated ribbons if you install new original and new updated and then compare them. By the way I have both original and Graz ribbons. The main system the one posted here has all Graz ribbons, bottom to top.
Also, there is no such thing as "lighter" ribbons being better. How about we translate the mass of the ribbon into a mathematically equation and equate it sound quality. Then apply the limiting factor of ribbons mass. If lighter is better then more lighter and lighter would yield better sound? no it won't (because mathematically near zero mass would sound the best). Hence, lower mass does not yield to better sound but there is an optimal weight which must oscillate between a certain magnetic force of he magnet to perform its best (with minimum distortion). I have tried lighter ribbons (remember my home is another Apogee lab), and the theory of lighter ribbons did not hold. I ended up throwing away some lighter ribbons. But hey, I am not here to win an argument, draw your own conclusions. Most people's systems do not have enough resolution to discern the difference.
you said:
But I also believe that if you choose wisely and understand what makes a product tick you can push many products to the side and avoid disappointment and time wasting.
Well, yes, that is why I have the TRL GT-800 and GT-400, and the DUDE preamp and TRL moded Sony CD player after having tried over 100 major products. I have no interests in even trying any amp, CD player or preamp. Absolutely no interest.
Most audiophile chase their tail. I like your women analogy and I can only dream I could try but then I would be an idiot to settle down :)
I have heard all the Apogees up to and including the Graz remakes. Even the book shelf monitors they made at the end of their reign. Unfortunately only fleeting listens to the full range and alas some years ago now. Maybe you can help with that? (Yes that is me inviting myself around!)
With my Apogees I had the updated ribbons inserted eventually. IMHO the updated ribbons were superior in sound and manufacture to the originals. I know muralman had issues on a scintilla which I heard various theories for.
But just the tolerances due to the advances in today's glues I believe made a profound difference. The glue thickness, evenness and strength made for a better product making my Duetta much more dynamic and able to create higher SPLs. I know you have a different ribbon, but even those naked ones had a tighter tolerance and Graz did try even thinner and lighter versions too. So you could see which you preferred.
My Duetta sigs really were spectacular once I finished both their restoration and the various modern additions including and external passive crossovers, internally solidcore silver wired as few brakes/solder points in the cables with alpha core foil inductors and mundorf S/g/o caps, Caddock foil resistors, better connectors etc. All things I'm sure they would have tried at the time should these products have existed. The same for the Diva.
I did consider the more powerful magnets that are available but cost was prohibitive.
I completely understand your view on the latest merry go round of hifi components. But I also believe that if you choose wisely and understand what makes a product tick you can push many products to the side and avoid disappointment and time wasting.
I don't know of many manufacturers that make their products worse than their older ones these days. Maybe they abandon a design and try another tact which you may not like.
For example Audio research. I never heard their reference series get worse. Each change brought better sound IMHO. I'm sure the same can be said for many other high end manufacturers. Digital gear is nearly always better to older ones. But then again I found myself prefering certain modern tubes over these old ones people revere. Maybe I'm a philistine with cloth ears? I understood what was liked sonically though. I preferred the cleaner sound to burly old school.
Now there are instances where Old studio equipment is preferred to modern types, but this is usually because they want that. Sonic signature embedded in the recording and recording process. So a slightly different case for old over new.
As for placement of speakers, I believe I have come under your beady eye some years ago. An old picture of I think my Duetta had you question me. But the actual positioning was different to that of the picture so I think all was well. I hear you though.
There is a certain amount of paranoia and imagined sonics brought by the endless list of new this or that, which has placed pressure on some audiophiles. You can chase your tail for sideways moves very easily, or just have a change out of boredom. Before you know it you have unpleasant sound or have just lost your way. It takes a lot of experience to stay focused on the prize. Which is probably a large part of the point you are making.
I wonder if it's like never settling down with the right woman and having constant new relationships? You never get past a certain point where you really know each other and reach all the deeper things that come after that? Enjoy the music not the hifi could be the motto.
I have found the Apogee to be the best I have heard with possible exception of the big sound lab ESL. But Apogees especially if brought up to date with latest ribbons and components are wonderful.
Now which Apogee are we talking about here? If you mean the Duetta or Diva, then mmmmm. But if you are talking about the Apogee Fullrange, then it is a different story. Overall the big Apogee comes close to being an ultimate speaker. I have heard some good sounds from the Duetta and Diva, but most owners of these speakers have incorrectly placed their speakers.
Now, you mentioned the update to the latest ribbons,... huh. Don't believe the hearsay or hype of "latest" and do not confuse "latest" with "new". These are two different things.
Tell you two things that I have observed in my 20 plus years of this hobby, indicating what a strange specie audiophiles are:
First, Manufacturers will always claim latest is better and audiophiles will believe that. Magazines do the same thing, always claiming the new speaker and new amp is and upgrade. Well, if that is the case, sound quality should have been improving at a staggering rate and eventually going out of the curve scale and out of the roof. But it has not!!! Hence the claims of upgrade and latest are false more often than not. It reminds of the movie "A Beautiful Mind" the story of John Nash, a Nobel laureate economist. During the movie, based on his real life story, Nash is suffering from schizophrenia due to which he hallucinates that there is a little girl around him often advising him about his judgments. He listens to her advice carefully. In fact she is not real and is only his imagination. Finally, after years, he realizes that the girl has never grown to become an adult and therefore must not be real. The audiophile's perception that every latest upgrade is an improvement is no more than a similar (and wishful) imagination (and manufactures feast upon it). Mind you, I am not pointing at you, just sharing the thought.
It also reminds me of a mate that I had at my high school. He was naughty and sometime would do practical jokes. Sometimes, he would stand under a tree near a street and start yelling "come down" while looking up at the tree as if someone was hiding in the tree. Slowly he would gather the attention of some passing by pedestrians. Some of them would stop and start looking up inside the tree, believing that someone must be hiding there. The kid would then slip away in laughter. I observed the same phenomenon here, where one guy would just keep posting relentlessly about a certain amp (which is in fact crap). After years of posting bogus claims, some (in fact quite a few) people became buyers of this amp. hahahaha
Second, more than 90% of Apogee owners are clueless about their speaker placement. I tried to preach to some of them but over 90 of them are not willing to even try moving their speakers. Out of those, over 90%, however, do not mind spending thousands of bucks on cables and other tweaks. Then over 90% of those regret making those purchases. Yet, over 90% of them are likely to repeat the mistake..and it just goes on and on. Strange but interesting.
agear, you asking me to post my whole "audio biography" here :) I will post soon ....just the summary.
:) more or less I guess. I love Maggies too. I spent over 10 years in Minnesota for medical training and Minnesota is Maggie central. I heard them often.
Anyway, the cliff note version of your planar journey would be fine.....
I hope one day we can chew the fat face to face enjoying some great sounds.
It's good to push the reset button and try things from a different angle. The darkside has many temptations! If only to show the spectrum available. I mean R2D2 is alright but Darth has something to offer too. How many can pull off a cape and a shiny helmet?
The AG duo is like half a speaker compared to the Trio. The clarity and poise you heard in the duos highs/mids continues to travel on down to the bass on the Trio. Life like and effortless dynamics from top to bottom.
Like all speakers, initial positioning is a laborious job. I found with planars especially with Magnepan and apogee, that you can plonk them down and they sound pretty good. Then the inch by inch fine tuning from back and side wall to toe in or lack of toe in starts to make the speaker disappear. As you know slowly the focus, bass response, depth, and layering start to make themselves heard. Rather like catching a small wild animal. Slowly...slowly...there!
The Trio was very tricky. At first they sounded pretty bad just plonked down. The positioning, and toe in were so fussy by comparison. The sub placement, cross over point and volume became a magic trick. It drove me mad for some time as I was so used to a seamless, life sized presentation from the apogee and magnepan for little effort.
But the Trio was uneven with its drivers aparent. Suddenly after fiddling I got them to sing. The drivers disappeared as the soundstage layering, depth, and width became extraordinary. Making my beloved planars sound distant. I had both Magnepan and apogee sounding alive and vibrant after obsessive attention to detail. They were free from compression. But the Trio was in another league. Trio dynamics could have you jump out of your skin. Orchestral music could climax freely in a way I have only heard standing next to one. Instruments vivid and uncanny.
Even so I still think of myself as a planar guy. It's just that I now do it with a horn. An apogee on steroids.
PS I have heard the odd box speaker sound good. Magico being one. But for a lot of money! The MG20 would keep you happily for a quarter of the price.
chadeffect, you and I can have long productive discussions. You are an extremist :-) lol, you gone from high-power amp/low efficiency speakers to low power amp/high efficiency speaker, which I call the dark side of audio in Jedi language :)
I have heart your speakers but only the Duo not the trio and they were damn good in the mid/highs. So I guess you must be happy with what you have but I just wanna say one thing. I had believed in the planar speakers but for a certain period of time was not getting good sound out of them because I was doing wrong experiments following some poor online advice from Apogee forums. But I hanged in there until I found the right combination of source/pre-amp and amps. Finally, the speaker placement was the ultimate lesson that came largely through a Chinese audiophile and then some of my experimentation.
About 4 years ago, I realized was done with the sound, and that is why I have been stable although the fun continues by tweaking here and there.
BTW, I love Maggies too. Though not as good as the Apogees (specially in the mids), they are fantastic and I would take them anytime over many $150k box speakers. Some of the best sound I have from other people's systems was from the Maggies.
GD, since you are the panel maven, what steered you to where you are speaker wise? I don't own panels but have always been a fan. My choice of box speaker was partly predicated on finding something with panel attributes (transparency and speed among others). I shied away from them partly due to size and room logistics. The lead engineer for Carey Audio lives in Charlotte and he is bending my ear about Soundlabs. My wife would fly into a homicidal rage if I ever bought those monstrosities....
