I am back, folks. My system was the third most talked about system after Mike Levine's and Albert Porter's.
For some personal reasons I took a break from audio. But I am back with good news and not so thrilling news. The not so thrilling news is that the system is unchanged. And the good news is that it is so hard to improve it, regardless of the price -- I do not know what to upgrade, except may be cables -- as I hit the peak performance from my perspective. The sound thrills me still every time I listen. Still, 140plus tubes, embedded in the finest of amps and pre-amp driving a legendary speaker that can give a good run for money to speakers costing $100k plus, all making heat and magic at the same time. Wow, life is good.
Acknowledgements:
There are several people I wish to acknowledge who have helped me a great deal in building this system:
1. Charlie, who designed one of the finest preamps. Although, TRL Dude is marginally better, the Charlie X-2 will stay with me for ever and will continue to provide listening pleasures
2, Paul Weitzel of Tube Research Labs (TRL) for his helping on tuning the amps and on his feedback on many other technical aspects of the system at the micro and macro level.
3. David Royalty for building nice wooden battery casing for the TRL moded Sony CD player and also for numerous technical feedbacks.
4. Ivan Li of Hong Kong for showing me the insight into planar speaker placement.
5. Steve Dobbins of Xact audio for coming all the way from Idaho to install the tonearm and overall turntable tune up.
6. many visitors who have graced my listening room with their presence.
7. All audio friends who are not mentioned above.
8. Audiogoners who continue to post interesting and thought provoking comments here.
Ryriken66: The Minors are a great speaker for their price. And they have the same characteristics of the Major but with smaller sound and smaller soundstage. But musically, they are gorgeous. They also look nice. What color do you have?
For placement they should be on stands, the Minors come with their own stands, I think). You will need very little toe-in, like 1/2" to 1", but no tilt is needed. The distance between them can be more than 6'. Experiment with that and see if you can try up to 7'. The wide they are, more stereo effect and wider the soundstage, until the central image collapse. They can sound a bit bright if they are too close, especially with solid state amps. The distance from the wall, you can experiment too but in 11x12 you may not have much freedom to move them forward.
The amps have no electronic hiss. Sometimes some tube connection can make a noise but rarely, and that means you just have to clean the tube pin or the socket. I do have some mechanical hum coming out of the transformer of the GT800 but it is an easy fix. Basically, you have to insert damping material (like the sheet that goes on house roofs). I have purchased that but have been lazy installing it inside the transformer canister. It is not loud to be a distraction and may be that is why I have ignored it.
Hello, I se you have owned many Apogee speakers. I have a pair of Apogee Minors. Do you have any setup tips. Should they be toed in or straight ahead. Thanks for any info. My room is 11x12 ft.speakers about 6 feet apart.
Thanks for writing back again. I like your deep insight. We can learn from each other.
I have the Duelands and I am in the process of buying the Jupiters and I will try them one by one. But I have a higher priority project at hand first. You know the Apogee Fullrange has a passive line level controller (between the apre-amp and amp). I am trying to put that crossover insidet the Dude preamp to eliminate the extra cabling and RCA plugs and most importantly the gain switch on the crossover box. That should give me good improvement as the lien level signal is so weak it has to be preserved as much as possible and be free of unnecessary evils like cables and connections. So I am working on that for now. Once I am done, I will probably try the Duelands in the Dude preamp.
My caps in the speaker level crossover are Mundorfs Silver and Oil. And I like them a lot. Before that I tried the regular Mundorf's (cheaper ones) and they were so bad I actually throw them out in the trash. I am not sure if I want to try the Duelands because they are so expensive and I am not sure if they are over hyped (although the hype about them seem to be evaporating).
I am not someone who will try things based on hype. My system *for me* is like a precise physics lab. Any subtle change I can perceive easily and ultimately I decide what to try and what to keep on. The only problem is the sound is so good that it is unlikely any major part will change. So to satisfy my itch, I can only temper with minor tweaks and minor parts improvement and the chances of that change becoming permanent is rather low.
About the power tubes,, I agree, I also found the EL34 to be the sweetest tube in midrange. I have owned the Audio Valve monoblocks which are pretty good but they are not up to the TRL GT-800 or even 200 -- but then nothing is. Nevertheless I like the sound of EL34 very much.
The same goes for the 300B but that is another whole world. The 300B's however will need very different speakers than Apogees.
I agree with your on the amp/tube combo. I too have owned big VTLs and Jadis and listened to Conrad Johnsons. The amps have their own characteristics which work in combination with the tube.
About the KT88/KT90/KT150 in TRL amps, the KT90 and KT120 are very similar. the KT88 has different sound as it emphasizes the midrange. I prefer KT90 over other tubes although Paul is very adamant on KT150. But it is my ear and my taste. I have not liked the KT150 at all. It is punchier and more powerful but it collapse all of my 3D soundstage. It may not be a horrible things in other systems because I am not sure how 3D sound they are getting but it disappears in my system. It is like a whole parameter in a mathematical formula disappearing --- remember the physics lab analogy.
I looked at your system and I noticed that you too have your Apogee a few feet from the wall behind them. You can try placing them in the middle of the room. Search for my article on Planar speaker placement. Most Apogee owners are not getting the full potential out of their speakers. I am also not a fan of obsorbers. They suck the life out of music. You are better of trying the Auralax diffusors on the side wall. Having foam diffusors behind the speaker wall will improve the midrange imaging but they absorb the bass punch. You can make your own diffusors out of wood for the wall behind the speaker. You will also get a better sound if the speakers were not tilted back but straight. Place them on a some higher platform like a stone slab. Some friendly suggestions.
Hello again Gallant_diva, It's a pleasure to speak with you again and I appreciate your support. As for the Duelund vs Jupiters I will be interested in reading your conclusions after the comparisons are done regardless of which order you choose...
Regarding the KT150's I will admit to finding your negative opinion a little curious. Please let me explain via my background tube experience.. Before I acquired the TRL GT 200's my power tube experiences were somewhat limited in variety though fairly long term in execution. In the world of tube amps I was initially "Raised on" EL 34's for many happy years... Their mids are almost legendary and I was completely hooked, line AND sinker with almost no incentive to wander away. Eventually amps and systems evolved and, after a brief stint with 300B's I moved into the world of KT 88's and some great sounding 6550's which were a more 'sophisticated' sound in as much as while losing the last degree of midrange bliss via the '34's, the 6550's added both [ top and bottom] frequency extensions so successfully ( and "evenly") that it simply became much more honest and real sounding...
Fortunately the amp brands were in fact just the right combo with these tubes. I can explain: picture the reputation of VTL amps: words such as punchy, fast, powerful, extended and yet spacious and often well detailed may come to mind... Notice the similarities to the description of many popular brands of KT 88's... Similar, yes?
Now picture a pair of beautiful Conrad Johnson mono blocs... Mine were not the very old/ early ultra rich loose and "Toobey" sounding ones from waaay back nor were they the very latest models who are much much more neutral and, as more and more tube products are striving to do, : sounding more and more like great SS amps yet trying to keep their best tube artifacts still in play. Mine were right in the middle and oh were they wonderful (Premier 12's if you must know) and think of CJ's sonic signature...words like " expressive, natural, relaxed, unforced, "gorgeous mids" and of course simply 'real'... all may come to mind. Reminds you of an EL34 a lotta bit?
Well here's the kicker: my VTL's (MB 125's BTW if you were curious) with all their [above] descriptors were NOT running the KT88/6550's... they were running the EL 34's! And guess what the CJ's were running? Not the " natural, easy, midrange magical EL 34's... they were running SED Winged C 6550's . Each amp's personality was being enacted by tubes you wouldn't have necessarily thought presented such a description...
Moral of the story is amps may have 'house/ brand' sound and tube types their own intrinsic characters too but sometimes even your best educated guess [about the way you expect it to sound..] may be off base.
As for the TRL GT 200's when I first heard them they were already loaded with KT 120's ( a tube I had NO experience with). Yes, I was running the Dude so the big, dynamic, spacious and full bodied expressiveness was already major factors of the soundscape but what the KT 120's were specifically contributing ( as compared to another tube type...) couldn't exactly tell. But it all sounded really really good. Very shortly thereafter I put in the 150's and found the added power addicting. I also noticed a bit more incisiveness and speed over the rather-sluggish - in- comparison 120's. KT 150 bass was faster, punchier and even more extended and always with effortless control...
I'm wondering if I'm hearing an excellent "house sound" amp 'in spite of' these particular tubes and therefore can imply it could be even better with better sounding tubes....? Maybe. The loss in power will be instantly felt if I dropped back to 88's or 90's but maybe the mids would be worth it? Very interesting. So, food for thought.... Maybe I'll shop around for a couple of matched quads,maybe even some 6550's. Thank you for the heads up... It might just be fun doing some more experimenting. Thanks again and Happy Lissn'n!
lissur: I am sorry for the late reply. I also thank you for your kind words. But let me say this, your is one of the most knowledgeable posts I have seen in years. You know what you talking about and you have the knowledge. I am tired of reading from audiophiles who post for the sake of it and for many other reasons.
I am not a person who will go by the hype, no matter how big. I did buy the Duelands caps for my Dude but never felt the motivation to install them and also did not believe the hype about them. You describe the Jupiter vs Dueland comparison very succinctly. I appreciate that. I am inclined to follo the path you are suggesting. But I might try the jupiters and then Duelands. The thing is that I have such a precise system that the effect of any tiny change that I make. This is unlike many other people's systems where equipment is already a compromise and any change will be ...well,... a change, which depending upon someone's mood may be perceived as positive or negative.
I see you have the Duettas with GT-200. That would make a terrific combination especially with the Dude.
I am usually a hype buster. So let me just bust one more current hype on the KT150 tube. I hate their sound. I love the KT90, then the KT120, but no room for the KT150. The sound of the KT150 is flat and one dimensional. I tried them twice just to give them benefit of the doubt. But no, it just aint my cup of tea. Sorry to bust the bubble of so many people who are Raving about it.
I will also bust the Dueland vs Jupiter Bubble. I am just busy with other stuff but will try both caps on no too far in the future.
The bass of the big Apogee is full and ripe. Initially it was not optimal but I added a specialized transformer in my amp to drive the bass panel without its autoformer. After that the bass slammed became heavier. The speaker goes up to 30 Hz and shakes up the room easily. I have experimental with adding subs just to overcome the itch but I prefer the sound without the subs. In fact, at times the Apogee bass is so empowering that it feels subs are running even when they are not.
I also do not like the bass from woofers bigger than 10" because their mass is just hard to stop once it they start moving the air. I have listened to some good bass from woofer speakers but every time it was 10" or smaller cone. Once I was with friends at a dealer in Hong Kong. We listened to the big Kharma $250,000 speaker driven by equally expensive electronics. The abrasive midrange combined with big fat boomy bass hitting my shins was simply unbearing.
I am also a fan of 2-way but not 3-way speakers when it comes to dynamic speakers....but it is all personal preference, you know. Gallant_diva (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
I agree with your sentiments. I see that you were selling a set of your Apogees. What do you think of Analysis Audio panels? The US distributor is in my backyard and I was curious to hear them....
Hello Gallant_diva: I have been a huge fan of yours ever since I first laid eyes on your system as I too have been both an Apogee and TRL fan for many years (first the Apogees with various electronics, then I discovered TRL).
I currently have True Sound Works Duetta Ultimates driven by GT200's (Duelund cast coppers) driven by a Dude with either [the same] Duelund casts as amps, OR another Dude I now have which is using the new Jupiters instead. I like them both for different reasons.
Duelunds still generate a bigger airiness and space with very good imaging and natural character... Jupiters improve a bit more in the exact imaging specificity but may give up a trace of room spaciousness... Neither characteristic/comparisons would be noticeable without a direct A/B of each however.
All in all my assessment has to be taken with a grain of salt as one Dude is relatively 'stock' (w/ the Duelunds) and the other has been HIGHLY modified, including the new Jupiters... So, it's almost silly for me to make such comparisons.
FWIW I also run Jupiters in my Lampizator Big 7 (my system hasn't been updated on Agon in awhile and is still showing my earler Big 6 and my first pr of refurbished TSW Duettas before I went for the Ultimates..).
Last note: I had heard all the new buzz about the Jupiters so thought I might try them out in my monos one day and I bought a complete set to do so. Ironically, I had cause to recently need to change out one set of caps in my right mono... when I had to decide whether to use the Jupiters and of course replace both amps with them, I didn't have the heart/courage to make the swap as I was so pleased with the sound of my system using the Duelunds; not to mention I already had the Jupiters upstream in the new Dude and Dac. I decided I'd stick with the [pricier!] Duelunds...which is what I did. No regrets at this point at all...
Maybe if you own the Duelunds already you should try them and live with them first... Jupiters could be something to play with down the line? Let us know what you decide.
PS Great seeing a picture of Paul, especially inside such a fitting setting!
Ptmconsulting: how is your recent experience with the caps? I bought the Duelands for my Dude but never installed them. I wonder if I should still try them or go for the Jupiters.
Lloydelee21: Sorry for my late reply. I have listened to many big Wilson speakers but frankly have never been impressed. And one of the main reasons is their boomy artificial bass. They put up a good show for home theatre but lack musicality. It is also all about balance. The reasons I think the big Apogee is a superior speaker is the balance and the authentic bass. Some people perceive amount of bass as measure -- which is wrong because you could just do that by adding big fat subs. It impresses for a few times and after that you lose interest and then if you got big pocket, you start getting the itch for more expensive speakers like Magico.
In the case of Apogee, there is no such itch -- which is good and and bad, depending upon on your perspective because having some itch is also important in this hobby.
The bass of the big Apogee is full and ripe. Initially it was not optimal but I added a specialized transformer in my amp to drive the bass panel without its autoformer. After that the bass slammed became heavier. The speaker goes up to 30 Hz and shakes up the room easily. I have experimental with adding subs just to overcome the itch but I prefer the sound without the subs. In fact, at times the Apogee bass is so empowering that it feels subs are running even when they are not.
I also do not like the bass from woofers bigger than 10" because their mass is just hard to stop once it they start moving the air. I have listened to some good bass from woofer speakers but every time it was 10" or smaller cone. Once I was with friends at a dealer in Hong Kong. We listened to the big Kharma $250,000 speaker driven by equally expensive electronics. The abrasive midrange combined with big fat boomy bass hitting my shins was simply unbearing.
I am also a fan of 2-way but not 3-way speakers when it comes to dynamic speakers....but it is all personal preference, you know.
Arborsliving: Thank you for the compliments. You too have an open invitation for a listen. With regard to the TRP pre-amp, I think the latter ones such as the Dude are better than the older models because of their improved power supplies.
Sorry all friends for my absence. Have been busy with other stuff in life. And the Audio? The audio is all alive and well. The sound is so good that I have hot the wall. Not sure what to improve....may be power chords, or play with different tubes.
Will respond to the unanswered comments above. Thank you.
I have been a fan of your system ever since you first posted it. I was wondering if you ever, or occasionally host an open house for TRL, or Apogee fans. To hear properly set up Apogee full range's with that level of amplification is a treat not available elsewhere on the planet as far as I know. Also, if you are interested, I just listed my TRL GTRP-balanced pre-amp on audiogon. It was primarily developed to go with the GTR 800's. It is especially rare as it has multiple XLR inputs, and outputs in addition to the RCA ones.
I count at least 144 tubes. It looks wonderful, but aren't you tempted to cut back? Did you increase the capacity of your HVAC to accommodate your system? Even the mere 23 tubes in my Houston system are a bit much for Texas summers.
