I am back, folks. My system was the third most talked about system after Mike Levine's and Albert Porter's.
For some personal reasons I took a break from audio. But I am back with good news and not so thrilling news. The not so thrilling news is that the system is unchanged. And the good news is that it is so hard to improve it, regardless of the price -- I do not know what to upgrade, except may be cables -- as I hit the peak performance from my perspective. The sound thrills me still every time I listen. Still, 140plus tubes, embedded in the finest of amps and pre-amp driving a legendary speaker that can give a good run for money to speakers costing $100k plus, all making heat and magic at the same time. Wow, life is good.
Acknowledgements:
There are several people I wish to acknowledge who have helped me a great deal in building this system:
1. Charlie, who designed one of the finest preamps. Although, TRL Dude is marginally better, the Charlie X-2 will stay with me for ever and will continue to provide listening pleasures
2, Paul Weitzel of Tube Research Labs (TRL) for his helping on tuning the amps and on his feedback on many other technical aspects of the system at the micro and macro level.
3. David Royalty for building nice wooden battery casing for the TRL moded Sony CD player and also for numerous technical feedbacks.
4. Ivan Li of Hong Kong for showing me the insight into planar speaker placement.
5. Steve Dobbins of Xact audio for coming all the way from Idaho to install the tonearm and overall turntable tune up.
6. many visitors who have graced my listening room with their presence.
7. All audio friends who are not mentioned above.
8. Audiogoners who continue to post interesting and thought provoking comments here.
I think the Rike caps (in a speaker crossover) are excellent. Musical, detailed, without being tilted or in your face, and with a natural, textured and dynamic sound. Very similar to the Duelund copper VSF tone, but I think with more dynamic breadth.
I cannot really comment on their bottom end as my speaker has no cap there, but I suspect these guys know what they are doing there too!
I hear Jupiter have a new cap which is said to be a giant killer too, but I have not heard or tried it yet.
I have played with many caps. The Mundorf sliver in oil, Mundorf silver gold, Mundorf silver gold in oil, duelund copper VSF, Duelund cast and Rike caps are all world class and have their own characters. The Rike is a sound leaning towards Duelund for nowhere near the money of the Duelund.
Just to let you know, I finally unleashed my soldering iron and put in a pair of Rike Caps in the mid range horn of the AG Trio xover. It replaced a pair of Mundorf S/G in oil caps which are excellent. As mentioned between Duelund & Mundorf you have the best caps the world has to offer.
Well enter the Rike. As mentioned only across a limited part of the audio spectrum, but an important one. Well all I can say is these are excellent caps. Natural sounding like the Duelund, wide like the Mundorf, but also very dynamic. Nice timbre with lots of detail. Almost from the 1st minute it was apparent. In the passing hours and days they settled in to give magnificent sound! And for 1/2 the price of the Mundorf and about 1/10 the price of the Duelund.
I love products that are just perform brilliantly and are (almost) affordable. No umming and ahhhing. Just excellent. Solid German engineering once again.
Maybe it's time for me to buy German amps too? Rike amps are said to be amazing? Maybe it's not a good idea to have a 3rd Rike?! Sorry ;-)
Its always good to chat and learn of people's experiences. And I enjoy our chats. You always are clear.
It's very interesting that not many liked the "lighter" ribbon. The "heavier" ribbon seeming to have more substance to the sound. I went for the original type new ribbons.
I cannot remember now as it's quite a few years ago, but I believe it only was the tweeters which were available in that "lighter" model? Was there a different corrigation he tried too? He did a lot of experimentation I know that.
Most importantly Graz has kept the brand alive and many Apogees survive today due to his obsession. He was always very helpful and knowledgeable. Great for a product that went out of production so many years ago. They brought me much joy.
I'm donning my 10 gallon hat as I type, and I think I look pretty good in it too! I will be in touch when I'm back in the US and will find a good excuse to come and darken your door as soon as possible.
I have heard all the Apogees up to and including the Graz remakes. Even the book shelf monitors they made at the end of their reign. Unfortunately only fleeting listens to the full range and alas some years ago now. Maybe you can help with that? (Yes that is me inviting myself around!)
With my Apogees I had the updated ribbons inserted eventually. IMHO the updated ribbons were superior in sound and manufacture to the originals. I know muralman had issues on a scintilla which I heard various theories for.
But just the tolerances due to the advances in today's glues I believe made a profound difference. The glue thickness, evenness and strength made for a better product making my Duetta much more dynamic and able to create higher SPLs. I know you have a different ribbon, but even those naked ones had a tighter tolerance and Graz did try even thinner and lighter versions too. So you could see which you preferred.
My Duetta sigs really were spectacular once I finished both their restoration and the various modern additions including and external passive crossovers, internally solidcore silver wired as few brakes/solder points in the cables with alpha core foil inductors and mundorf S/g/o caps, Caddock foil resistors, better connectors etc. All things I'm sure they would have tried at the time should these products have existed. The same for the Diva.
I did consider the more powerful magnets that are available but cost was prohibitive.
I completely understand your view on the latest merry go round of hifi components. But I also believe that if you choose wisely and understand what makes a product tick you can push many products to the side and avoid disappointment and time wasting.
I don't know of many manufacturers that make their products worse than their older ones these days. Maybe they abandon a design and try another tact which you may not like.
For example Audio research. I never heard their reference series get worse. Each change brought better sound IMHO. I'm sure the same can be said for many other high end manufacturers. Digital gear is nearly always better to older ones. But then again I found myself prefering certain modern tubes over these old ones people revere. Maybe I'm a philistine with cloth ears? I understood what was liked sonically though. I preferred the cleaner sound to burly old school.
Now there are instances where Old studio equipment is preferred to modern types, but this is usually because they want that. Sonic signature embedded in the recording and recording process. So a slightly different case for old over new.
As for placement of speakers, I believe I have come under your beady eye some years ago. An old picture of I think my Duetta had you question me. But the actual positioning was different to that of the picture so I think all was well. I hear you though.
There is a certain amount of paranoia and imagined sonics brought by the endless list of new this or that, which has placed pressure on some audiophiles. You can chase your tail for sideways moves very easily, or just have a change out of boredom. Before you know it you have unpleasant sound or have just lost your way. It takes a lot of experience to stay focused on the prize. Which is probably a large part of the point you are making.
I wonder if it's like never settling down with the right woman and having constant new relationships? You never get past a certain point where you really know each other and reach all the deeper things that come after that? Enjoy the music not the hifi could be the motto.
I hope one day we can chew the fat face to face enjoying some great sounds.
It's good to push the reset button and try things from a different angle. The darkside has many temptations! If only to show the spectrum available. I mean R2D2 is alright but Darth has something to offer too. How many can pull off a cape and a shiny helmet?
The AG duo is like half a speaker compared to the Trio. The clarity and poise you heard in the duos highs/mids continues to travel on down to the bass on the Trio. Life like and effortless dynamics from top to bottom.
Like all speakers, initial positioning is a laborious job. I found with planars especially with Magnepan and apogee, that you can plonk them down and they sound pretty good. Then the inch by inch fine tuning from back and side wall to toe in or lack of toe in starts to make the speaker disappear. As you know slowly the focus, bass response, depth, and layering start to make themselves heard. Rather like catching a small wild animal. Slowly...slowly...there!
The Trio was very tricky. At first they sounded pretty bad just plonked down. The positioning, and toe in were so fussy by comparison. The sub placement, cross over point and volume became a magic trick. It drove me mad for some time as I was so used to a seamless, life sized presentation from the apogee and magnepan for little effort.
But the Trio was uneven with its drivers aparent. Suddenly after fiddling I got them to sing. The drivers disappeared as the soundstage layering, depth, and width became extraordinary. Making my beloved planars sound distant. I had both Magnepan and apogee sounding alive and vibrant after obsessive attention to detail. They were free from compression. But the Trio was in another league. Trio dynamics could have you jump out of your skin. Orchestral music could climax freely in a way I have only heard standing next to one. Instruments vivid and uncanny.
Even so I still think of myself as a planar guy. It's just that I now do it with a horn. An apogee on steroids.
PS I have heard the odd box speaker sound good. Magico being one. But for a lot of money! The MG20 would keep you happily for a quarter of the price.
Many roads indeed. I cannot believe the audiophile journey I have done so far.
If you told me a few years ago I would sell all those powerful state of the art Amps and go to a 2 watt amp with a circuit dating from the 1940s I would have told you you were mad.
But here I am with no itch to do anything. I just wanted to see how these Rike caps sounded? As the Trio has minimal parts in its crossover it's no painful thing to try. Maybe the equivalent of dinner for two somewhere rather than years of $Pain cash. Probably cheaper then buying a power cord!
You are a lucky man. I had magical listening sessions with my duetta sigs & MG3.6r. I never got the diva to work as well as the sigs. I love planar speakers and have had the usual suspects. Apogee/magnepan/quad/ML. I have found the Apogee to be the best I have heard with possible exception of the big sound lab ESL. But Apogees especially if brought up to date with latest ribbons and components are wonderful.
But on my journey through hifi it was only when I embraced high efficiently that I realized how much I had struggled with difficult to drive speakers and highly complex amps.
Luckily good sounding powerful amps are easy to find today, and now that I'm free to use any amp including flea power SETs really brought home how much fun trying each topology could be. And how wonderful simple low power amps sound when they have light work to drive an efficient speaker.
I look at your floor full of lovely amps and remember moving around huge amps and wondering if I was mad? There were a couple of times I thought I'd die lifting Halcro DM 68s and ARC ref monos! All in the name of Audiophilia. I can only imagine your pain when it comes to cleaning the tubes and sockets.
But every speaker has it's problems. It's just which ones you are willing to put up with?
I will try to put the Rike caps in at the weekend and report back.
That was the point I was rather badly trying to put across. It's not worth pursuing for the Apogee unfortunately.
I did my Apogee Duetta sig and Diva with mundorf silver gold in oil and that was painful enough. I think 15mf or maybe 20mf are the biggest Duelunds you could buy off the shelf. So do the maths to make up those larger caps in parallel! Ouch.
But I say it again. With care you could do something with the apogee xover caps. Used in combination you could get 80% of the sound for nowhere near the US debt with a clever mix and match.
I found mundorf SG in oil worked well with Duelund. The air of the mundorf and slightly hyped presentation compared to the duelund brought life to the planars. But this is why I say you need to audition the places to put them with bypasses 1st.
Mundorf upstream of Duelund was a good way of getting life into a system that my be laid back. I'm sure there are other combinations too.
The only reason I moved to Avantgarde Trios was to get more dynamic contrast. Otherwise I would have died with my updated Apogees happily.
You have to work so hard with plannars to squeeze that bit extra dynamic out. Everything in the chain has to be just right. Magical though when you do. One can only dream of full range Apogees stuffed full of duelund cast...
thank you. Very kind of you to say and good to know I'm not the only mad person here... They are excellent caps.
Gallant diva, I understand. When I say value for money I am with you completely. Something's are just worth paying for. There is a caveat though.
For a preamp the price wouldn't be too bad, but to do your apogee xovers, let alone all those lovely power amps(heat could be an issue), your bill would start to look like the US debt. You will be looking at around $1,500 to $2,500 per cap for the Duelunds. Yes per cap! I bet your apogee has some large caps, 15mf etc.
At this point only you can decide if its worth doing? Hense my mention of the Rike cap. I would certainly do as much up stream in the signal path as you can with duelund. The Apogee would undoubly reward you with heavenly sound stuffed with duelund. If you have the silver in oil mundorfs in the xover then you will gain. If you still have the original spragues your head will fall off.
But I bet there is joy to be had by carefully selecting caps for specific duties. I would suggest buying a set of bypass caps. Some 0.1mf or 0.01mf duelunds, mundorf silver/gold in oil and use as by passes and work your way around the system auditioning for the most critical places.
You will most likely save thousands of $, have some fun, and learn a lot about your system at the same time. Your worst case situation is you buy all duelunds anyway and sell the bypass caps afterwards. People will bite your hands off for those caps. Win win.
Value for money? Well I suspect it's the wrong hobby for that. But I think we are all long enough in the tooth to be aware of the various minefields and snake oil. A healthy distain for equipment is my current state. But I'm always willing to audition.
Some equipment is just right, and you know from the 1st note it's worthy of further investigation and a possible splashing of the cash moment is close!
What's inside the Duelund? Not much! There is little monetary value IMO, but my god their caps sound good.
My view is this. I have always been pleasantly surprised by vibration dampening effect on sound quality. Potted inductors, weight added to components and stands etc. I think some of the duelund sound is about this. The cap being so compressed and solid as part of its manufacture.
Secondly I have had cables that utilised silk and natural products and they have nearly always had a positive effect on the overall sound. Naturalness, ease, more organic or real sounding. The characteristics a grown up hifi system should display. And this is the world duelund inhabits IMHO.
They are stupidly expensive, but I know of no other cap that has this tone. It is wonderful.
A part of me would attempt to house the Mundorfs in resin or something like that. I bet part of the hyped or etched sound of the Silver gold in oil cap is due to vibration. If you hold the Mundorf cap by the leg and flick the other leg the thing rings like a bell for a second or 2. Never a good sign for audio. Flick the duelund and there is no ringing. Nothing.
to be clear, I meant that around 50-100 hours of signal burn in on the duelunds will start to show you what's in store. Not that they would be fully burned in. But you can start to enjoy them then, rather than wondering why you spent all that cash for lifeless sound?
Has anyone had experience with the Rike cap yet? I haven't had time to instal mine yet. The only spare time I have had I chose to listen rather than solder. I have duelunds in so I'm ok!
One change at a time is always good. Let things settle to really know if you are stepping in the right direction or not. The only mundorfs worth anything IMHO are the Silver/in oil and the Silver/Gold in oil. Unless you want to talk power supply caps?
I found the Duelund to sound different to the other caps I have tried. I think the word I would use is organic. Maybe another is analogue.
The Mundorf SG in oil is a very good cap. But there is something slightly hyped and artificial in direct comparison to the VSF and Cast caps.
In my Apogees xovers I liked the Silver gold in oil because they helped bring a little life, more air and detail. But once you hear the natural, organic, solid, layered presentation of the Duelund it will be hard to go back.
Don't go thinking you will put them in and have an instant audiophile orgasim! There is a slight waiting game. They can sound bland, muted and flat dynamically for a while. Probably 50-100 hours run in. But soon the texture and harmonic structure starts to come to life as they open up.
The only fly in the ointment is the duelunds very high price. In Apogees it will be painfully expensive. Hence my great hope for the Rike!
I hope you don't mind me chipping in? If you are thinking of duelund caps, which are great in my experience, it could be worth trying Rike caps. They are said to be slightly better than duelund and much cheaper! Whatever "better" means?
I have some Rike arriving to try in my xovers which are currently duelund which replaced Mundorf SG in oil.
Rike worked out much cheaper. So if you were after 20 or 30 caps, I would imagine a large saving.
I like the Mundorf silver in oil. The Mundorf silver/gold in oil having greater detail and slightly more air in the treble. Although the golds will show up recordings more. I guess due to their transparency. But the duelunds make those lovely Mundorfs sound a little hifi or etched by direct comparison. The duelund is just so natural. All the detail, but not stuffed down your throat. So if the Rike cap is "better" god help us! I will post something once I have installed and let the Rike caps settle. I live in hope.
