Air, Magnets, String & Tape

by ct0517 on Quad 57Matrix 800Music ReferenceAudio ResearchkrellEminent TechnologyJC VerdierLa PlatineStuderDynaudioTimeter Aridyne
B&W Electrostatic DM70c with 13 inch Woofers - John Bowers favorite Speaker. Maybe mine too 8^0 time will tell.
Lucky - will be acting in the capacity of the RCA Victor Dog.
Custom build ET 2.5 Tonearm from Bruce Thigpen - A 19 PSI design.I am using the new Long I Beam. Aluminum Gooseneck. Single Shot WBT wiring, Aluminum mount plate. Magnesium armtube. Double Leaf Spring and damping trough. If you are an ET2 owner you know what I am talking about :^).... Advantages of the ET2 airbearing linear tracker tonearm - no VTF changes with VTA adjustment, no offset setup, antiskating and immunity to acoustic feedback, as it rides on film of air.
Are u able to find the Audiophile Kitty ? My daughters Bengal
Studer Tape Deck - Pictures show my tech Roger Ginsley working on my machine. DO NOT own without a tech. Used to play 15 IPS tapes.
JC Verdier La Platine Granito Original Design - Thread driven, Magnetic Levitation No thrust bearing - For levitation think Magnet Train with no electronics. The Magnetic Bearing and the Pneumatic Air suspension isolate this turntable from the shelf. The prime considerations on a shelf become strength and a design that doesn't move over time. The Custom built Air Bearing ET 2.5 tonearm completes the package. Thread technique. The thread needs to be applied loose. This isolates the influence from the outboard motor. The platter design only needs alternating pushes to stay at speed. Motor speed changes take 5 seconds. that's how little affect the motor has on the platter. Thread is setup so it is at the very bottom of the platter. Think about how you would help a friend move a couch. Where do you hold it? Same physics principles apply here. Double magnets also produce braking/damping which helps to deal with the records behavior.
Record Cleaning
Straight Shot Phono Wiring - WBT connectors and your choice of wire
Goldilocks and the 3 Turntables - Comparing Turntables - circa Jan 2010 - Audiophilia Nervosa level 4 out of 5. Same Room, Same Electricity, Same speakers, Same Amp, Same tonearm / cartridge / wiring. The moving target - the ***TABLES*** Belt Drive (converted to thread), Idler and Direct Drive - Significant differences.
Custom DIY Build SP10 MKII - Armpod and SP10 Bolted into the Plinth. 2nd ET 2 High Pressure Manifold - Taught me about resonances, vibrations....
ARC Stack - Modded SP11 MKII. NOS Amperex Bugle Boys + DAC8 (in middle)..... Adjustable Gain. ARC Hot Rod Option. It is OLD SCHOOL no remote but it is beside my chair so I don't need one. It is setup up one way for Digital and another Way for Analog (Vinyl). NO XLR connections so you need to be anal with your interconnects setup. If not scared so far read on....Compared in room - have had SP8, SP10, newer Ref Models, Allnic, Krell, Classe, Bryston and some others. They got this one right. If you don't need that remote and we are talking 2 Channel Audio with Analog Vinyl - Very hard to beat. Hybrid design with separate power supply box with Toroidal Transformer
In Room ET 2.5 Air Regulator
ET 2.5 Air Pump - Timeter Aridyne
Quad 57 - Wayne Picquet w/ Music Reference RM10 designed for them. Pics show my initial setup in the big city and bringing them home. See last Picture on this page for the current setup.
Modded Music Reference RM9 - Amperex NOS Input tubes, Mullard KT88 power tubes - Modjeski Hand wound Transformers
Krell FPB600 (20amp design) + KRELL B&W 800 Series Bass Alignment Filter
Matrix 800 - One time effort All Assault from B&W. Only a few hundred pairs made ever made. Four Factory isolated crossovers per speaker had upgraded components, 8 WBT connectors per speaker and Silver Wiring standard. Mine are Quad Wired. Can also be Quad amplified.
Matrix 800 - Think 4 Subs Two High Two Low for two channel music. B&W's All Out Assault Speaker when Two Channel was the focus.
Matrix 800 Install
B&W Electrostatic Continental DM70... was John Bowers favorite speaker. compared to the 801? DM70 wear white cowboy hats.....801s wear black cowboy hats...
My Darth Vader Impression with Acoustat Spectra 33
OTL versus Push Pull Amplifier Shootout
Dynavector Tonearm
Why use a Bass Alignment Filter w/B&W 800 Series Matrix speakers as designed by John Bowers ? To actually hear the lowest octave in most rooms. See the graph for reasons why. Also and maybe more important it opens up Amp Choices. See Graph supplied by B&W UK. Note the ohm ratings on the right and how the BAF ensures a steady 6 ohms with 801.
FR64s (former)
OTL 195 Amplifiers
Room 2 Build out - pic from 2010 need to update - stairs view.Room now has 110 inch projection screen that hides when not in use.
801 Monitors - The Bears (Replaced with Matrix 800) - 801 Stored for my Son - one day if he is ever ready.
Former Modded VPI's - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSZSzxnN1mg
Jean Nantais Lenco Custom Two tonearm 100 lb
Turntable Thread Drive Comparisons - Fabricland became a favorite place.
How to set ET2 weight properly for best Bass. Think childhood teeter totter.
ET 2 Tonearm Manifold One Clean One Dirty - Guess which is which
ET2 VTA Block destroyed by improper setup
ET2 tonearm VTA Block Torquing Procedure
ET2 Aluminum versus Magnesium ArmTubes
Regular ET2 Gooseneck versus Custom Aluminum
ET2 Single, Double, Triple I Beams
Armpod Experiment ET2 on a Pedestal - I wish my financial stocks were doing as good as the price of brass
ET 2.0, 2.5 Tonearm Aluminum Mounting Plate (Available as of Dec 2015
Pal and Running Buddy
Circa 1994-2010 Room 1 - w 801 anchors
Timeter Aridyne 2000 - added as a backup. found one with only 100 hours on it.
Matrix 800 - All Out Assault Effort when Two Channel was the Focus
Relocated Subs - NEW TECH Meets OLD - WPK Quad 57 plus Dynaudio Acoustics BM12s combo - Quad 57's are seven feet from the front wall. Dynaudio Subs are set for 60 hz and down. Each sub has its own Class A/B 250 watt amplifier. Quads are run full out on the Music Reference RM10.
Katya our Savannah Cat - Should I worry about the ESL cloth grills ? Acoustat in space used for Exercise room.
B&W DM70c Restore Revive of ESL Panel
Yamaha 1968 Elephant Ear Speakers
I am an ET'er
ET 2.5 Long I Bream

Description

Audio Hobby Thoughts, Philosophy & System Description 

Current Room Anchors - Room 1 and 2 active

Room 1 - Matrix 800's anchors -  for creating that ..........Maxell Tape Effect. 
Room 2 - (Adjacent to Room 1) - Quad 57 + two Dynaudio BM12s subs - Midrange reference
Room 3 - Acoustat Model 3 - Modded - upstairs - For imaging larger than life  (literally speaking) - see last picture. Unfortunately is next to my wifes TV room. So it gets limited use.
 
Stored - B&W Electrostatic DM70c Continental - Wife calls them the washing machines. John Bowers called them his favorite speaker.   Very interesting and very rare. Could anchor a room but they need special placement and lots of room. ESL portion needs to be 100% functional and at ear level or they will sound soft. 

Room 2 is mostly digital, guests, and used for trialing used unplayed records before they make the queue for room 1.  Room 1 has been called by my family as Dads Hole. I prefer panic room as it helped to raise my kids and stay married...so far. 

Psychology Part 

Music is critical to ones health and well being. I went through a couple stretches in life due to events without it and the results were not good. The goal for me to get lost in the music and have it transport me to that special place. Now whether you get there by a typical 2 channel home stereo with speakers, headphones, or other means is not important. Getting there is the important part.  

Audiophile not.....

Have always been the type that if I frequent a room enough, a system usually ends up in there. My wife finally put an end to this, and allows me to do what I want in the full basement of our house.....so..... In this described virtual system, I have had Room A since 1994. Adjacent Room B is in the process of being finished, but I have been using it for listening for a few years now adding in room treatments as needed.   

History 

Like many others, have been at this audio hobby since I was about 13 when I was consciously aware of the gear versus the actual music relationship. I am now 55 and currently with two adjacent music rooms setup with different gear. Both rooms can do full orchestra symphonies with large dynamic swings. Getting Room B with the Quad 57's to do this was a challenge; but I was able to get it to work with the right amps and powered subs. The Quads require a very different room acoustic setup over the Matrix 800's in Room A.  

I am a pure amateur, audiophile, music lover, past trombone player, and have never been part of the Audio Business as a manufacturer, dealer, distributor, or have any special interest relationships with any of these people. I consider myself a full time music lover, and part time audiophile; although I have friends that could argue this point. I have tried to upload pics and information here, that give a flavor of some of my audio journeys, and associated bouts of Audiophilia Nervosa.  :^)

"Audio Heaven, is for Music Lovers - Audiophiles are never happy.
With that, in the real, authentic, Heaven;  there is room, even for Audiophiles"  
8^0


Living in the country

Having moved away from the city core in the 90's, I have found that audiophiles away from the cities, are in general, scare to find and or keep to themselves. Many of my audio friends are now remote, due to the distance between us; so only virtual communications are possible most of the time. 

The negative aspects of Isolation aside;  one good aspect of living in the country is the clean power and lack of noise and vibrations caused by traffic, trucks, etc...Once experienced and its effect on your listening, you become very aware of the multitude of audiophile products available as band aids, to cover, veil, but never eliminate these artifacts in densely populated areas. 

Thanks for reading and please say Hi.  

Happy Listening  


Read more...

Room Details

Dimensions: 24’ × 20’  Large
Ceiling: 8’

Components Toggle details

    • My Music Library Records, Tape, Cd's, Files.
    I was born in the 60's so I grew up with Classic Rock, Beatles, etc... But I love all music, new music and Opera hits home with me. I played trombone in Jr and High school so the Bass Clef has a bias with me.  Listen more now to the ladies crooning at me, Classical and Jazz with occasional Classical Rock; I think a well recorded full Orchestra Symphony with huge Dynamic swings has the most magic for me.
    • ***** MAIN ROOM aka Panic Room, Dad's Hole, ....*****
    I have had Room A since 1994. It has 3 dedicated lines 20, 20 , 15. This room is personal use. Room B is more for entertaining and spending time with friends. 

    Room A is much better insulated and isolated from my wife. As much as I would like to move the Matrix 800's to the larger Room B space to try them, it would probably just get me that much more trouble.  

    Room A and B are both located on a concrete poured floor. A has a an underpad and flat carpet on top. Spikes from gear stands and speakers are able to penetrate to the concrete with no problem ensuring a solid mechanical connection. The speakers are located 6 feet from the front wall with the room being 24 ft in length. Putting in the 800's over the 801's meant that some of the room treatments were able to be removed due to the 800's double woofers high and low.  This is also one of the reasons I call them very room friendly.
    • RTR - Studer Tape Deck - For Listening & Vinyl Tuning
    RTR - Studer - used to play 15 IPS Tapes. 
     
    1/4 inch 2 track machine. The three pictures attached. Top Left - known as two turntables. my machine being worked on Middle pic - 807 Top Right Pic. A picture of Roger Ginsley with a 48 track machine he is about to split into two 24 tracks. My Studer 807 is calibrated by him. He is also the one that makes the interconnects I use with it.
    • JC Verdier La Platine Vintage Granito Original Design
    2012 

    http://www.jcverdier.com/ADSL/platineVintage.html 

    Just a delight to use. With its presentation, sends the message home that it is all amount the music. Effortless, seamless, but experience is needed is setting up the thread. A real Goldilocks scenario of the thread being too loose, too tight or just right.  Different thread tensions alternate how the motor and platter work together and change the speed. The objective is to get the correct speed with as little effect from the motor. ....  
     
    Original design. Granito Model My version uses a motor only equipped for thread Granito base and solid aluminum billet armpod. The later newer motors are equipped now for belts too - but no one runs them this way that I know of. This decision was made imo to generate more sales as it is easier to setup. But imo the belt grip would play havoc with the motor / magnets marriage which was designed for thread. I would think that belt stretch and its physical changes with temp and humidity changes would also cause problems, and interfere with the natural braking action of the magnets. This is my opinion as mine is thread only. There is a greater learning curve involved with thread. 

    This is the only turntable I am aware of whose platter design includes both acceleration (inertia) and braking (natural forces from same pole magnets) to deal with the records behavior - going from soft to heavily modulated grooves. The motor design, like a marriage with the platter. Think of the childhood merry go rounds that once up to speed - even a little girl could keep them going. To understand how the motor and platter are like a marriage, one need only turn the motor off and the platter spins for 30 seconds with the thread attached. However cut the thread while the platter is turning, and the platter stops much quicker as the two magnets demonstrate their braking capability. Impressive to me is just the plain simplicity of design using physics to get the job done with a piece of string and magnets. I found it important in setup to have the thread positioned in a way that is the least intrusive on the platter; so as to allow the platter to not only do its job as designed; but to also provide the needed jolts as required from the motor to maintain speed stability. 

     In my opinion - you will know when you have set it up properly because you are able to turn the motor off and on and also deflect the thread with your finger - as the records plays - and not affect the music delivery to your ears. I base this when compared directly to 15 IPS Master Tape dubs. In testing for accuracy I run both simultaneously with one lagging 10 seconds behind the other and switch between the two - compensating for gain as tape is a high level signal. When the thread is setup in this fashion there is minimal stress put on it. The current silk thread I am using has recently passed the one year mark. Overall Big Sound from a small piece of thread. 

    Some facts Magnetic bearing design. Brass colored rings are big shielded permanent magnets; same magnet poles repelling each other. The result is "levitation" the space you see between them. No thrust bearing involved. A central spindle bathed in a special oil keeps them aligned. For me personally I did not know what TT bearing noise sounded like until I heard music on a TT without a physical bearing. The plinth is made of Granito. Granito is not real granite but a non-resonant material that looks and feels like granite. A limited edition model.

     "Granito is a material composed by little pieces of marble of very different origin agglomerated inside a mold with cement. Machined and polished. The resonance of the plinth with its suspension is about 5Hz and it is well absorbed by the air cavities." 

    Mr. JC Verdier Note: Newer Platines are provided with a setup bearing. The manual is very clear on the setup bearing. It is just that - a setup tool only. COUNTERFEIT PLATINES Unfortunately there are non-authentic tables out there worldwide from 20 different counterfeiting makers. These tables are out there with people using them. If anyone is unaware of this, see the Platine Information on the JC Verdier website for more info.

    http://www.jcverdier.com/ADSL/platineV.html]Platine 

    The only advice I can give is when buying a Verdier Platine you should be careful to ensure it is a real Platine, especially if buying privately. If you already have one and have doubts, check with an authorized dealer or J.C. Verdier company in France to ensure it is authentic.  
    • Custom Eminent Technology Model 2.5 for MC Carts
    This is a custom build ET 2.5 Tonearm from Bruce Thigpen - A 19 PSI design.I am using the new Long I Beam. Weights are reduced by half and therefore the vertical inertia is higher - a goal of the design. The Aluminum Gooseneck was sourced from NZ. It was through Richard Krebs also an ET2 owner.  I am using Single Shot WBT wiring, Aluminum mount plate. Magnesium armtube. Double Leaf Spring and damping trough. If you are an ET2 owner you know what I am talking about :^).... Advantages of the ET2 airbearing linear tracker tonearm - no VTF changes with VTA adjustment, no offset setup, antiskating and immunity to acoustic feedback, as it rides on film of air. 

    https://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1325551242&&&/Eminent-Technology-ET-2-Tonearm-Owners

    One shot wire. Run at 19 PSI. Damping trough with 1 cc of Oil. Lead weights at the very end of the I Beam.

    VTA on the fly while the record plays and it doesn't change any parameters (VTF) like all other tonearms do. This is due to a patented VTA on the fly system. Have you ever noticed how with same thickness records....some can sound brighter, some bloated and some just right? When they press the records the different plants can have different standards. Records are then cut with varying angles.. even same thickness ones.

    See ET2 Bass Management Below
    • Tonearm Wiring Loom - One shot WBT NextGen
    2011 One shot wiring loom for the ET 2.5. WBT 0102 CU connectors. The design of the ET2 (2.5) allows for this wiring to be changed out in about 10 minutes. Silver and copper can be experimented with.
    • The PUMP ET2
    Life Support for the ET2's.
    Timeter 3000 Medical Industrial Pump. The most important part of the ET2 arms setup. Industrial commercial grade medical pump. Its actually a patient respirator.

    These have an hours counter and come up for sale cheaply on ebay. If you have space in your basement somewhere they are turnkey once set up.

    I have tried large aquarium pumps, smaller medical pumps, compressors.

    This Timeter Medical 50 psi pump has been customized to allow me to regulate air pressure coming out and send 19 psi to the ET2 tonearms. Another regulator with gauge at the arm allows me to accurately adjust for the PSI coming into the arm. Located in another room -cannot be heard in sound room when running.


    The smoothness of air delivery is excellent. No resonance. The pump dumps/expels moisture like a car's AC. Have never seen a drop in the moisture collector; other than one incident when the pump outlet clogged with minerals from the moisture. I now soak the pump outlet in CLR for 2 hours every two months.

    • ET2 In Room Air Regulator & Filter
    2nd Regulator and Filter on wall near the ET arm. Confirms and controls the 19 psi and also filters out moisture in line. Have never seen any moisture in this filter. This device lets me change the pressure going to the arm by just turning the top mounted knob. This regulator is mobile. It can be placed in my lap while the music is playing and pressure adjusted to hear how it affects the music delivery.
    • Audio Research DAC8
    From a DAC only function perspective identical to the ARC REF DAC except the output stage is tubed on the REF. Interesting read.  :^)

     http://www.audioresearch.com/ContentsFiles/DAC8_white_paper.pdf

     
    • Audio Research SP11 - MKII Pre Amp Modded
    Owned many many years. Modded power supply box. Variable Gain for dealing with hot, and compressed source material - Digital and Analog. On the fly cartridge impedance loading. Used in ARC's hotrod mode. Direct output and bypass switch engaged. Amperex Bugle Boys.
    • Matrix 800
    Unique one time all assault effort from B&W at a time when 2 channel was the focus. Smooth, musical yet still detailed. Room Friendly if you can believe it. Imagine 4 subs two high and two low pointed at you for 2 channel music. Each driver 2 woofer, mids, tweeter have their own crossover easily accessible from the back. 
    They were a  2 1/2 year study from Bowers & Wilkins under John Bowers (RIP). I have looked for a long time for a pair. The only time they become available are through owners going to a smaller condo (retiring or divorce).

    All B&W 800 models that followed the Matrix series are the same only in model designation - 800. They are not a replacement or upgrade. They are a different build, design, objectives, sound. Post Matrix 800's are a smaller speaker system (require a sub for full range); they do have better WAF (more easily placed into a shared room with the wife)

    800 matrix can be played at low and high levels with the right amp.
    93db 2.83 volts/1m, Mine are Quad wired. They can be run on four separate amps if one desires as each driver has its own crossover. 

    Top and bottom woofers each excite a different set of waves. These waves cancel each other out. Thats the theory. My listening supports this. Smooth tight bass. It is quite something to experience since their size make you think they will over take the room. Also IMO each woofer works only half as much with four versus two for the desired SPL.  All of this results in a very flexible listening position. All drivers are physically isolated with separate crossovers and Van Den Hul silver wiring from the factory. I run them with both tubes and Solid State. Krell and  the modded Music Reference RM9.  

    Krell Amplifier Story
    My research found me talking with Dan D'Agostino who used matrix 800's as his reference speakers when he designed this era of Krell amps.
    Specifically the FPB series like my FPB600. On a dedicated 20 amp circuit with upgraded 20 amp power cord using Furutech Gold IEC.

    600 wpc - 8 ohms,
    1200 wpc 4 ohms,
    2400 wpc 2 ohms.

    The speakers are a 4 ohms design due to the double woofers.
    New spiders in all the four woofers.
    • KRELL FPB600 & KRELL Bass Alignment Filters
    Krell / 800 Matrix Interface. KRELL FPB600 KRELL 800 Matrix BAF Furutech IEC. 

     20 amp power cord. 
     20 amp wall service. 
     http://hansvt.home.xs4all.nl/pdf/brochures/baf.pdf
    • ROGER MODJESKI Music Reference RM9 MODDED
    I have two of his amps. RM10 used with QUAD 57's

    RM9 Push Pull Tube Amp.
    Used to power Acoustat, 801, 800 speakers.
    WBT 0700 Connectors.
    KT88 output tubes.
    Hardwired for 4 ohm tap. Total Overhaul done April 2015
    • MATRIX 800 INSTALL
    Installation
    • 800 Series Bass Alignment Filter / Equalizer.

    The graph shows the 801 matrix frequency response with and without the filter.

    All 800 series B&W matrix speakers are an active design and are intended to be used with an equalizer by the designer (John Bowers) to achieve the best frequency response.
    This attached graph was sent to me by B&W Europe years ago 

    It is the frequency plot for the 801 matrix "without" using the supplied Bass Alignment Filter. (not sure if it is 801 s2 or s3)
    B&W England are the ones that drew the two dotted lines on the graph. 

    The 801 matrix speakers were designed to be used with the BAF. The speakers with BAF devices were shipped to original owners. But these devices became lost as speakers changed hands. They pop up on their own on ebay.  

    The two interesting parts.  

    Part 1 

    Not only does adding the BAF filter as designed give you a smoother response and allow the speaker to hit 20 hz.  The BAF makes the 801 matrix speaker much more efficient. The ohm ratings can be seen on the right 8 - 6 - 4 - 2 ohms. The 801 matrix s2 and s3 are a very easy 6 ohm steady load with the active equalization provided by the BAF. This opens up amp choices.    

    Part 2 

    Audiophile opinions on the BAF device are kind of split. Not sure if its an even 50% like it, 50% don't like it, but you have the two camps. Why the difference? The room; its acoustic properties, and how the 801 (aka relationship destroyer) deals with it. There is a reason B&W no longer make the 801.  You need a dedicated room. Its makes no business sense. 

    801 matrix owners today (there are many out there and some reading here), that could NOT make the BAF work with the speaker; or who never used it, or even heard of the BAF before;  are taxing their amps way more to make bass with the 801.  
    • ************ SECOND ROOM ***********************
    A backwards seven with the main section 20 -23. This room is the "top of the Seven". It is separated from the bottom portion of the Number 7 shape (12 x 24) by a heavy curtain. It is also adjacent to my other room of which the door is left open. The back of the room has the stairs that go upstairs. One of the pictures has me standing on the stairs. All this makes for a much bigger room as far as sound volume and space is concerned. An in progress dedicated listening space that accommodates different speaker types.
    • ******************SPEAKERS ***********************************
    03/31/2011 Dynamic, ESL, Planar IMO - We listen to our rooms. The speakers in the rooms are like boats. They both represent freedom to me. A 12 foot aluminum boat is perfect for a small lake and your favourite person. But out on the ocean or a big body of water … The water/boat analogy in this case is like your room and speakers. Water waves versus sound waves. There is no perfect boat and no perfect speaker. This is because all our rooms are different and the room is the big rock in this audiophile game. Speakers represent the last piece in the audio chain. Their sound represents everything in your audio chain especially the room, before it reaches your ears. Every piece will have an effect on what is heard. This IMO is why it is so important to have a good source. The last few years my speakers have remained intact and I have concentrated on improving the source components. Each time I improved the source my main speakers improved as well. This tells me they are not a bottleneck and I have not yet reached their limits.
    • Dynaudio Acoustics BM12s - Two of these in my Quad Room B .
    Two of these in Room B -  18hz - 60 hz. 
    4th order Linkwitz- Riley crossovers have a really steep slope past 60 hz.
    On paper this made them look like a really good match for the Quad 57's; but how does such a small box make 18 hz.  They have class a/b amps are 4 ohms. 
    I brought them home and demoed them. Very Punchy, Clean and they go really low. A great match with the raised Wayne Picquet Quad 57's. They are placed under the speakers - see pic in my virtual system. 
    • Quad 57 Wayne Picquet rebuild with Music Reference RM10 AMP
    Quad ESL-57 - Wayne Picquet Panels Partnered with the amp that was designed for them - Music Reference RM10 by Roger Modjeski.

    With certain music magic for me.

    8/20/2012 These Quad 57 speakers were designed and put out before I was born. The parts inside which I have replaced like the EHT modules were stamped 1971. Fourteen years after they originally came out. The panels themselves are only a few years old. They were rebuilt by Wayne Piquet in Florida.
    The normal music presentation for stock Quad 57’s is as if listening to music from the first row of a balcony. If using stock feet a 2 or 4 x 4 piece of wood or brick under the rear leg angling the speaker downwards toward you actually raises this image. This may be a more realistic presentation in your room.

    Check out my review. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?rspkr&1309018315&&&/Quad-57-
    • 801 Active Monitors - Currently Stored
    Currently Stored - "Winnie the Pooh" of speakers. Relationship Destroyer. Owned since 1994. Serious Sound Pressure Speaker can re-create an event in your room when positioned and driven properly. Mothers milk bass. During my time with them have used Solid State and Tube amps (Push Pull and OTL's).  In comparison to the DM70 Electrostatic, If the 801 and DM70 were cowboys. The 801s are wearing black hats and the DM70 white ones.  

    801 Matrix S2 and S3 - Designed by John Bowers to be Active Monitors with use of the BAF and become a sixth-order Butterworth alignment. Without the high pass filter they are a vented fourth-order design, specifically in a Bessel alignment. "Fourth-order" is an engineering term that refers to all vented and passive-radiator speakers; sealed boxes are "second order."  

    They are not full range to 20 hz without the BAF. 

    http://kenrockwell.com/audio/b-w/800-series-bass-alignment-filter.htm 

    ***************************************************************************** 

    From Stereophile (re: S2) "Higher in frequency, the response trend (averaged across a 30 degrees lateral window on the tweeter axis) is basically flat, but with a slight excess of energy in the presence region and a corresponding lack of energy in the top octave. All things being equal, this will make the speaker both a little too revealing of recorded detail and somewhat fussy when it comes to the quality of source and amplification components, just as LL noted in his auditioning comments." 

    *******************************************************************************

    801 S2 versus S3. 
    Some of the changes. S3 used a different crossover than s2 - less component count. Better isolated mid and hf boards. Bass inductors with an iron dust core . Rotating midrange – tweeter head assembly was permanently connected. (from 3 to 4 pin delivering separate ground signals to midrange and tweeter) Magnetic fluid cooling of the tweeter (like the 800 matrix) - the reason the apoc protection eliminated (circuits needed for this were also removed) 


    ******************************************************************************* 

     In nearfield very revealing of room setup, system components - SS and Tube, cabling, TT drive systems, poorly recorded music. They reveal all the flaws of the recording. 

    Depending on your audio hobby objectives this can be a good thing or a bad thing...

    See picture of the Bass Alignment Filter. 
    • B&W Electrostatic DM70 John Bowers / JansZen Hybrid
    B&W DM70 Electrostatic Continental Hybrid Speaker Clockwork Orange Movie The late John Bowers (RIP) favorite speakers. JansZen ESL - 500hz and up. B&W Woofer - 500hz and down. Require a large room - elevated to ear level and a good distance from the front wall. Very refined midrange - muscular bass. Non-directional with a large sweetspot.

    n]Designed in 1970. No cost or time constraints during the development. From what I can make out they were discontinued due to costs involved.
    Version One - Power handling 25 watts at all frequencies.
    Version Two - The later DM70 Improved, which looked identical, is suitable for amplifiers of 25-100w, but seems otherwise identical.

    500hz crossover - ESL panel can not be overdriven and is nondirectional.

    ESL Panel was provided by JansZen.
    Sensitivity is 17 watts into nominal impedance required to produce a sound level of 95 dB. at one metre at 400 Hz
    Double fuse protection C and CA versions.


    Restored and refurbished. Silver wiring inside

    http://loudspeaker-repair-service.reromanus.net/B+W-Manual_1970.pdf

    http://reromanus.net/loudspeaker-repair-service/refurbish_DM70.htm

    http://www.mats-enterprise.co.uk/DM70page/index.htm
    • Modded Acoustat Model 3 - Used In Shared Space Upstairs
    Finally hooked up the Model 3's to the OTL's in a temporary fashion.


    These are in our living area shared space
    Custom modded Model 3;s.
    They have rebuilt interfaces.
    Unique granite bases with integrated spikes that weigh 80 lbs.
    Burl Oak Veneer facing and the inside is filled with small sand bags.
    • Technics SP10 MKII with 2nd ET2 High Pressure Manifold
    March 11, 2013 Update


    Next version ? will replace the current black base plinth with a more aesthetic one.

    Pet Project - Has taught me a lot about resonances and vibrations.
    SP10MKII Version Five
    Solid Stainless Steel Legs have threads at both ends and are bolted into the sp10 top plate as well as the solid plinth/platform. The armpod is bolted into the plinth. The plinth is then isolated by the AT-616 Pneumatic footers.
    19 lb Solid Brass Pod
    1 inch Diameter Solid Stainless Steel.

    Previously I had the SP10 MKII in a heavy 7 layer plinth. Birch ply + one mdf layer. This SP10MKII came from a private studio.



    This is the second ET2 I own and it is a high pressure manifold

    Detailed tips and observations here.



    http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1325551242&&&/Eminent-Technology-ET-2-Tonearm-Owners
    • Jean Nantais 100 LB Two Tonearm Custom Lenco
    Jean Nantais Custom turntable.
    Includes:
    100 Pounds - Veneered - Two Tonearm Plinth
    Lenco L75 motor and top plate rebuilt to his standards.
    Reference model spindle, bearing thrust plate.
    Bonded Metacrylate mat
    Bearpaw footers.
    IEC outlet.
    • ************ SOME NOTABLE MEMORIES **************************
    For me some notable equipment. Currently stored or sold-indicated as such.
    • McAlister OTL 195
    OTL195 There is a review contained in my system thread. In comparisons to good Solid State Class A and Push Pull amps they were like driving a 911 but you are limited to 1st gear when pushed. Very fast and punchy. But lack the bass that push pull deliver on. Get the bass right and everything else comes into place. These amps are designed around the needs of Acoustats. My Acoustats are in the shared room upstairs. I no longer own the OTL's.
    • Fidelity Research FR64s
    Gimbal Pivot Arm. I found excellent build quality and a nicely implemented antiskate system. I also found a low frequency resonance that accentuated the bass. A warmer sounding tonearm. It was in my second room with the second ET2 not the ET 2.5. Whenever I started a session with the FR64s it was always nice. But curiosity would always prevail and I would switch over to the ET2. It would always remain there. This happened more times than I can remember. I am not a tonearm collector so it was sold to raise funds for another project. I am in agreement with what Cartridge designer Johnathan Carr had to say about it. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1243274438&openusid&zzJcarr&4&5#Jcarr
    • Modded VPI's
    Thread driven TNT and a JMW 12 using rollerblock jrs. SOLD
    • Acoustat Spectra 33
    Acoustat Spectra 33
    • Eminent Technology LFT 8a
    Set up in midfield - soundstage at both sides of the room. So the speaker shown is the left or the right one depending on side of room you are on. Excellent Magnetic Planar Hybrid Woofer Speaker. Very natural sounding but difficult to drive.
    • ****************AUDIOPHILE FUN + ET 2 TONEARM MODS ************** ****
    From here down are some inserts from past audiophile fun. 
    Also contained here is important information on the ET2, 2.5  tonearms as well as some of the mods I have done to them. If any questions on any of them let me know. No Holds Barred tonearm. User needs to be mechanically inclined and be willing to read ET2 manual instructions for proper setup of this tonearm. If bought on the used market a friend that is familiar with the tonearm for proper inspection of condition is important. 
     Audiogon ET2 thread 

     http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1325551242&&&/Eminent-Technology-ET-2-Tonearm-
    • COMPARING TURNTABLES (Jan 2010)
    Goldilocks and the Three Turntables . See Sept 20, 2019 post comment below on my virtual system for findings / details. 

    Belt Drive (converted to thread) VPI TNT Idler - Jean Nantais Custom 100 Lb Direct Drive - SP10MKII When compared in the same room(nearfield), with same gear, tonearm and cartridge, same time, differences are revealed. Out into rooms on their own, this is not as noticeable as our ears deal with different room acoustics. ymmv
    • OTL VERSUS PUSH PULL Tube Amps
    In room comparison.
    • Thread Drive Comparisons
    2010 testing out different threads. Fabricland became a favorite place of mine.
    • ET 2 Tonearm Proper Bass Management - ATB
    According to Bruce
    My ears agree
    • ET 2.0 Manifold Before and After Cleaning
    Pictures courtesty of a friend.
    • ET2 VTA Block Destroyed
    Thigpen Genius showing VTA Block rack of teeth and worm gear. This one was abused. If you are buying a used one ensure the rack of teeth seen in the pic are uniform with no wear and baldspots. This is an indicator that the VTA block was misused and rigidly tightened stripping the teeth. The bolt was tightened to a point that shattered the CF.
    • ET 2.0 2.5 Tonearm VTA Block Torquing Procedure
    VTA Block - Ensure each of the four bolts is torqued equally or the patented VTA system will be off. This procedures takes just minutes and should be done off table or you will throw your alignment off. Once bolts are torqued the manifold housing can be mounted to the pillar post and the rest of the setup completed.
    • ET 2.0, 2.5 Tonearm Magnesium versus Aluminum Armtubes
    Mag - MC Cartridges Aluminum - MM Catridges The middle ground is the Carbon Fibre arm tube. MM and MC.
    • ET 2.0, 2.5 Custom Aluminum Joint - aka GOOSENECK
    Black one is the stock one. Sourced from Richard Krebs
    • ET Tonearm Counterweight Bolt Mod
    Get a longer counterweight bolt especially if you like to use heavier cartridges. The stock ET2 bolt is on the right. The longer bolt weighs a bit more, holds more lead weights and allows you to use less lead further out on the I Beam. This provides for the highest vertical mass which is really important with the ET2 as it has medium to high horizontal mass. a 4 - 1 horizontal to vertical ratio. In my system higher vertical mass means cleaner, less resonant, overall better bass.
    The brass rings are meant for balancing only. I prefer to use Blue Tack for this purpose.
    • Et2 Leaf Spring Mods Single, Double, Triple
    General Cartridge Guideline 
     Single Leaf Spring - High compliance 
     Double - Medium Compliance 
     Triple - Low compliance
    • ET2 Pedestal Custom 3
    Solid Brass Arm Pod
    • Koaltar Tweak
    my pal 6 months, 79 lbs.
    • Kitty Tweak Bengal
    a real sweetheart
    • RCA Victor Dog
    I introduce Lucky. He is a mixed breed Jack Russell/Chihuahua mix breed. He will be acting as the Victor RCA dog, 

    The original Victor RCA dog.  
    He was named Nipper and was born in 1884 in Bristol, England, and died in September 1895. He was a mixed-breed dog and probably part Jack Russell Terrier, although some sources suggest that he was a Smooth Fox Terrier, or "part Bull Terrier". He was named Nipper because he would bite the backs of visitors' legs.

Comments 673

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Chris,

Noticed that one pic showed you still using the pulley system with your thread-drive TNT. As you know, I eliminated it when I went to thread drive.  A mistake??

Dave

dlcockrum

Chris,

Holy cow! Sensory overload! I need a month of complete isolation to absorb it all.  One (of the thousand) thing(s) that caught my eye was the "straight shot" ET Two wiring loom. Get that from Gene at TakeFiveAudio? Great guy, Gene. He was instrumental in helping me select and assemble my loom. I would like to know more about the straight shot.

Where do you go from here, Chris?   

In awe,
Dave

dlcockrum

Owner

Hi Dan 

The prevailing message in my system description is that. ... the "Gear" is just a means to the end. Blessed is the music lover that reaches the end point without spending thousands. If this person frequents Audiogon .......good luck to you. :^)

Some hindsight in reaching the end based on my personal experience.   

Once you have a 2 channel stereo system "kit" that is at a point that sounds great to you in your room. Move that kit in whole including all cabling to 3 or 4 different rooms and see what happens.......:^)

The room ......is indeed the Elephant. 

Happy Listening  

ct0517

Hello Chris,

It's good to see you're still chugging along. I'm reminded again of what an impressive assortment of gear you've acquired, and your investment in becoming so knowledgeable about it.

You're my hero! (I'm not kidding!)

Regards,
Dan

islandmandan

Owner
Updates !!

My system description and some thoughts.  So I got a little corny.... Maybe this comes with age ?  

Some New Pics  - including..... Koaltar and Bee Bee (my daughters Bengal)  
See 2nd and 3rd last pictures, next to the last picture of the Quad room.  

*******************************************************************************

So getting prepared for colder weather serious listening for late 2016 

 >>>>>  into 2017 (God willing)  

and re-starting my Records Reorganization Project 

(see 2nd picture but with warning - it is not a pretty site)  A daunting task? 

This reorganizations objectives, which include my wife not finally trying to do me in (divorcing me), is in order to do more learning of composers, their music, and the music enjoyment that will come from that  :^)
This will also be a welcome change from the summer time music I have mostly been listening to up north - the kind that goes well with Beer and Campfires. 

Re: the thread - How to Best Organize the Classical Record Collection. 

Look for updates on how I am dealing with the challenges that only a Classical Record Collection brings (whether your collection is vinyl, digital or both)

Happy Listening.  

ct0517

Owner
Added updated pics of my "in progress" LP reorganization project. 
I am getting there. I also started a thread to give me better ideas on how to organize the classical music. It has been very helpful. 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-ways-to-organize-a-classical-record-lp-collection

Happy Listening. 

ct0517

Owner
Likewise Dan. Its too bad for all the virtual communications with many Audio buddies due to the distances. But we also know "virtual" means we have all made Audio Buddies around the world. AudioGon virtual systems help to bridge the gap.  

Speaking of buddies;  my bud Koaltar is forced to listen from the head of the stairs. Just too many hairs unfortunately.  This is too bad because he would just park himself next to me and not move. Probably add in some dampening with his 77 lbs. My daughters' Bengal kitty has been in both rooms. As a kitten she would use the rows of vinyl in Room A as a highway which was kind of cool to watch as she stepped over Beethoven, then Miles.  then N Young, then A Winehouse  to N Merchant, ......:^) 
But now she is just too fast and can get into too much trouble especially with the Verdier/ET 2.5 turntable setup which is on a longer low platform only 17 inches off the floor. I have seen her jump 4 feet so this represents a real danger. Nothing like a cat taking out your turntable/cartridge.  She likes long string  :^(       

re: Dynaudio BM12s
We know we are at the mercy of the sound engineer on every recording we listen to. The BM12s are able to do four presets with the remote from the listening position to compensate for different music genres - good and bad recordings (i.e. too much or too little bass). The remote allows for selection of crossover point, and phase control, db level, extension, all from the listening position. Just push one of four presets when done. No more need for an audio friend to adjust the sub settings, and then you scream at him 
" that's it, stop there ! ".  Its a one person operation now.  Its db levels are a push of the (+) or (-)  button, the light blinks once which means 1 db up or down. You have a range of 20 db with it.    

In contrast, Room A's Matrix 800 speaker system is a passive 4 sub system - Two high subs two low for 2 channel music. Two sets of bass waves go out canceling each other - leaving behind musical notes. The speakers looks intimidate but they are very room friendly. You can unplug the top woofer to see how much effect it has on the room. I could probably move them back toward the front wall more with no bass issues, but this would obviously reduce the music depth. 

ct0517

Chris, it's great to hear about your BM12 subs score. Subs have made a very positive change in my listening room, improving on my connection with music, making it a deeper (no pun intended) and better experience.

Hope all is well. Still wish we weren't half a continent apart, I'd love to hear your system(s).

Best regards,
Dan 

islandmandan

Owner

Quad 57 Room B Subwoofers Result

 

I found Two New Old Stock (NOS) - Dynaudio Acoustics BM12s in a recording studio. Never out of the boxes.On paper for my needs they are; 18hz - 60 hz with 4th order Linwitz- Riley crossovers.


  • Linkwitz-Riley crossovers match attenuation slopes so that system response is flat at crossover point.
  • Butterworth crossovers yield to a peak at the crossover frequency.
  • Bessel crossovers have a frequency response between Linkwitz-Riley and Butterworth crossovers.

So the Dynaudio BM12s crossovers have a flat response where cutoff is applied. This, plus being a sealed box design made them appear to be a really good match for my Wayne PK Quad 57's. Quick and no cone bass past 60 hz.  They house 250 watt amps @4 ohms which from the size of the heat sinks I assume is Class A/B.  Most of the other subs I looked at were high wattage Class D designs..  

 

The numbers matched up, so I made the drive out there. I brought the two home and tried them out. I did find them very punchy, clean, and quick. They go really low and keep up with the 57's on kick drums and other low bass. A good ergonomic match (to my eyes) with my raised Wayne PK Quad 57's. The subs are placed under them with the woofer cones forward of the actual Quad 57 panels - for now. This sets the sub phase alignment at "0" 

 

here is what the set up looks like.

https://goo.gl/photos/FKfPst7tZSmDMUhV8


I am not able to preview a post on the system thread. if the direct link doesn't work see the last bottom picture of my virtual system page - the one to the right of the Bengal kitty :^).  .

 

The Dynaudio's use a thick credit card sized remote control for configuring them.  ( don't lose it ).   

 

A little strange how all this came about. This was a good 6 month plus search. The Dynaudio BM12s were a real dark horse that just appeared out of the blue toward the end. For those following, the other subs I was seriously considering were JL Audio, REL, Rhythmik and Seaton. Rhythmik and Seaton are very hard to find used in Canada, and I was not willing to pay 30 points on the Canada US dollar difference, plus shipping, customs and duties on them for new ones. I did manage to find a used Seaton Submersive for sale;  but when I went to hear it, I found out it had issues with the original smaller Seaton amp it came with clipping. This was revealed to me by the owner who had the smaller amp exchanged for the larger Seaton amp. But this meant the condition of the driver's voice coil was suspect. I passed on it.  The only REL sub I would buy are the older ones Made in the UK. This means their physical condition would be ?? and repairs would need to be made at a third party repair shop. So knowing the previous owner/s is important

 

The Recording Studio gave me a warranty on the two NOS Dynaudio BM12s.  Room B is pretty much complete now as far as gear goes. Maybe I will I start finishing touches on the actual room.  

ct0517

Owner
Quad 57 Room B Subwoofer Project Update

Would welcome comments from members who are familiar with the various drivers types and amps for subwoofers.  (Plate amps versus external ones?)

The Requirement - Two nearfield subs, on both sides of my listening position to be used 50 hz and down.  A picture of the space has been uploaded to my virtual system link showing previous subs locations and the current location that is working really well. 
 
So been in research mode reviewing both finished products various brands and the DIY route.  Vandersteen was deleted as its design requires one to go through its crossover first before the Music Reference RM10 amp. I discovered that REL have moved operations to China and their former employees in England have started up MJ Acoustics.  It remains an option used.  JL Audio is powering my sons standalone two woofer box in his vehicle :^).  

I have found a local Carpenter / Speaker builder that has a good reputation and builds nice looking boxes, lots of finishes to spec. He could do the whole thing or I would assemble the Driver and Plate Amp to the boxes he builds. Seems like a plug and play thing, no brainer ? Am I wrong ?  This would make the Rythmik products very attractive  - if not for our dollar, shipping customs, etc...  :^(

on a sidenote
As a url link happy forum poster I have been told by Audiogon that the links in my thread here will be restored so they work. Its on the schedule. But the main forums are the priority understandably. 

ct0517

Owner
A big thank you to Tammy and the AudioGon staff team (web developers) for helping me to get my virtual system under control. The new format for some reason caused it to explode - some entries and pictures were repeated as many as 20 times.  My virtual systems page has been edited and cleaned up. 
As a poster who really likes to include links and pictures in his posts;  I am hoping the (url link) feature is restored here, along with the ability to see the previous url links, from previous posts, mine and others.  Happy Listening 

ct0517

Owner
Have any audiogon members with virtual systems, checked out their virtual system on the new Beta system going live at the end of the month ? Those who happen to come upon mine, if you can find it, will not be faulted for thinking they have entered into the Dog World Forum.

Yup - its true. Seems my Bud Koaltar is now my main system page and I can't move him. Sort of like walking him sometimes. I think someone on the Audiogon staff likes dogs. Cool. Some of the emails between us were very funny - lol. You may have noticed my last few pic links on this thread were from Google and not Audiogon. I love pictures to make a point. The Beta Virtual System has not only made Koaltar the Alpha over me; its also duplicated the many attachments I stored there which were sorted into categories to help with posts on forums. :^(

ct0517

Owner
Bdp24 - One of the great things about the LFT is it's main panel reproducing such a large portion of the sound of music, without a x/o in the 275Hz-10kHz range.
Yeah.
I originally bought the ET speakers for a space in Toronto (born and raised there). I was spending quite a bit of time down there with work and care of elderly parents. The guy I had bought my ET Lft8a from was living in a place with a shared thin wall to the neighbor. He had to disconnect the woofers at night when listening and the reason he was selling them. This (listening without the woofers) would not have been possible without the main & tweeter panels reproducing so much of the music as you say Eric. They sounded so good down there that I had to bring them home to hear. Everything ends up going through Room A with me :^) and mostly nearfield. That Room A has not only probably (so far) saved my marriage, but also thousands and thousands of audiophile dollars. When you have a dedicated space ,and you get the audiophile itch; all you have to do is move the speakers around and you are saying - Holy crap what a difference (maybe good - maybe bad) lol ... if good .....you are set for the next few months. Get bored again ...move the speakers placements to the other end of the room. I did this for 10 years ! hell maybe more. All my audio buddies were frequent flyers with speaker wires, interconnects, amps, what have you.... All I did was move the speakers around ! Makes you realize very quickly what the most important thing is in an audio room. The Room. well ..plus the truntable with it fragile wires. The speakers, amps moved....The TT, its wires, preamp stayed put. Never put your TT in the a corner....

It also makes you realize never finish a room acoustically without your speakers in the Room first. Some guys build these elaborate empty rooms, and they have no idea what speakers are going in ---- can you believe it ? Hell , the Matrix 800's affect the sonics of a room just by the space they take up.

ct0517

Oh, I forgot to mention.....that 1 ohm impedance of the Quad 57 at very high frequencies is more of a problem in the load it presents to the amp, rather than in affecting frequency response, I believe. The impedance, plus it's phase angle (this is approaching the limits of my knowledge, but I won't let that stop me ;-), drives some amplifier circuits into instability, causing them to "ring". Not any Music Reference amps, though.

bdp24

Chris, I've heard the ET 8a's, at Brooks Berdan's shop. The change in the b version was to the tweeter and it's cross-over only, which is at the unusually high frequency of 10kHz! The x/o is 1st order (6dB/octave), so there is a lot of overlap between the tweeter strip and the main panel (275Hz-10kHz). One of the great things about the LFT is it's main panel reproducing such a large portion of the sound of music, without a x/o in the 275Hz-10kHz range. Brooks had been an ET dealer for years (selling a lot of the arm, and installing it on Oracle and VPI tables), and considered the ET LFT version (dual-sided magnet structure/push-pull operation, lower moving-mass Mylar drivers, etc.) of the magnetic-planar design superior to Magnepan's. I was an ESL-only kind of guy for years (Brooks admired them too, selling the current Quads), only recently adding the ET's to my system. At only $2500/pr, an excellent value!

bdp24

Owner
Bdp24 - I play my 57's with the back grill and burlap & felt removed.
Yeah - Lots of opinions on this one Eric :^)

from the web. Just a few for fun .......

"According to Peter Walker, the damping was put there primarily to control the Q of the fundamental bass resonance. He didn't seem happy with the idea of removing it."

"IMO, there are no real tweaks to make the Quad ESL perform better. Yes, they can be elevated from the floor to get a more realistic soundstage. This tweak will also give you better mid-bass. The middle of the treble panel should be at ear height.

There are two places with damping material: there are some layers of felt behind the treble panel (the element in the middle) which is there to damp the main resonance of this panel. This resonance is out of the pass band but may be exited by the bass panels and can cause the treble panel dustcover to rattle. This felt should not be removed. Then there is a layer of cloth on the back grill of the speaker which is there to lower the Q of the bass panel resonance. Depending on the room and the state that the ESLs are in, removing this cloth may "improve" bass response or not."

"Dustcovers have nothing to do with it, they are more or less acoustically transparent."

"I think the best way to get the most out of your Quads is to first make sure they are operating in good order and second to move them off the floor and experiment with the proper setup for your room/listening position. Another tweak may be to play them without the front grill."

*****************

on a side note
Martin Logans have the cool factor of the see through panel. Some think they actually sound better with backing installed depending on placement. But then the visual cool - they lose. Eric - your ET LFT8b's same story. Have you ever thought of ordering the 8a panels from Bruce, swapping them in and hearing what they sound like ? The ET LFT8 speakers definitely have the visual cool.

Some Facts, some Observations, some Fun

Quad 57 Frequency response
From the Quad 57 manual - New pair of 57's.
45hz - 18khz Rate of attenuation outside band asymptotic is 18 db / 8ve

Now if we were to assume:

1) One has properly functioning panels.

2) A room that lets them breathe away from the front wall plus angling flexibility. This is very important with the recessed tweeter panel between the bass panels. A total opposite design to the tweeter on top of speaker.

3) An amplifier that deals with the speakers unique very high impedance for Bass, and very low impedance for treble.
Quad ESL Impedance

4) The Person's hearing ability still goes to 18 khz ? Btw - One can test their own hearing here with this really fun youtube.
How good can one hear HF ?

IMO - I think if a person can put check marks on all of the four points above, then these speakers are da bomb.....with a nearfield sub/s :^)

But as one can see many hurdles to cross - Oh no ....I forgot one - maybe the biggest one - WAF.

Having fun with the heater radiators :^)

ct0517

I have a pair of grills for the 57's made by Crosby, the guy known for his Quad 63 mod. It just has a more open "weave" than stock, and I play my 57's with the back grill and burlap & felt removed. My stacked frames have MDF grill frames with cloth stretched across them, covering the naked 57 panels. VERY dangerous voltages inside the 57's!

I at one time also owned a pair of Braun 57's! Peter Walker licensed Braun to make their own version of the 57 for the German market, with the Quad guts in a Braun designed frame. The frame was light gray painted aluminum about 6" deep, that wrapped around the panels, rounded at the four corners like Braun's bookshelf speakers, with integral tubular stands that raised them off the floor. The panels of my pair were shot, and I didn't want to restore another pair, so I sold them to Brooks Berdan for his Hi-Fi museum. I haven't seen them since he died.

bdp24

I have a pair of grills for the 57's made by Crosby, the guy known for his Quad 63 mod. It just has a more open "weave" than stock, and I play my 57's with the back grill and burlap & felt removed. My stacked frames have MDF grill frames with cloth stretched across them, covering the naked 57 panels. VERY dangerous voltages inside the 57's!

I at one time also owned a pair of Braun 57's! Peter Walker licensed Braun to make their own version of the 57 for the German market, with the Quad guts in a Braun designed frame. The frame was light gray painted aluminum about 6" deep, that wrapped around the panels, rounded at the four corners like Braun's bookshelf speakers, with integral tubular stands that raised them off the floor. The panels of my pair were shot, and I didn't want to restore another pair, so I sold them to Brooks Berdan for his Hi-Fi museum. I haven't seen them since he died.

bdp24

Owner
Bdp24 - I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad.
Hi Eric, I am anxious to have you hear music with the RM10, and a single pair of your quads. Hurry up, move house and buy an RM10 already ! lol

Perforated Grill

For those like I that run their 57's naked; this is the material recommended by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions if you are worried about children, pets or a clumsy you ....and the voltage involved.

For those reading that might be thinking what all the fuss is about ?

57 Panels

A pic of one of my 57 speakers. You need to keep your body parts away from the panels that the bottom white wires go to. The tweeter panel can be seen in the middle surrounded by two bass panels. This is direct voltage. The only thing in front of the panels after you remove the protective screens, is a saran wrap like clear dust cover.

Bdp24 - There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain.
Tweeter

that's $1600 cdn dollars.

I make an assumption that not many in the UK have heard the RM10/Quad 57 combo.

Roger should take a business trip to the UK packing a couple RM10's. Visit a few Quad 57 owners.

ct0517

Owner
Bdp24 - I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad.
Hi Eric, I am anxious to have you hear music with the RM10, and a single pair of your quads. Hurry up, move house and buy an RM10 already ! lol

Perforated Grill

For those like I that run their 57's naked; this is the material recommended by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions if you are worried about children, pets or a clumsy you ....and the voltage involved.

For those reading that might be thinking what all the fuss is about ?

57 Panels

A pic of one of my 57 speakers. You need to keep your body parts away from the panels that the bottom white wires go to. The tweeter panel can be seen in the middle surrounded by two bass panels. This is direct voltage. The only thing in front of the panels after you remove the protective screens, is a saran wrap like clear dust cover.

Bdp24 - There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain.
Tweeter

that's $1600 cdn dollars.

I make an assumption that not many in the UK have heard the RM10/Quad 57 combo.

Roger should take a business trip to the UK packing a couple RM10's. Visit a few Quad 57 owners.

ct0517

Owner
Bdp24 - I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad.
Hi Eric, I am anxious to have you hear music with the RM10, and a single pair of your quads. Hurry up, move house and buy an RM10 already ! lol

Perforated Grill

For those like I that run their 57's naked; this is the material recommended by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions if you are worried about children, pets or a clumsy you ....and the voltage involved.

For those reading that might be thinking what all the fuss is about ?

57 Panels

A pic of one of my 57 speakers. You need to keep your body parts away from the panels that the bottom white wires go to. The tweeter panel can be seen in the middle surrounded by two bass panels. This is direct voltage. The only thing in front of the panels after you remove the protective screens, is a saran wrap like clear dust cover.

Bdp24 - There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain.
Tweeter

that's $1600 cdn dollars.

I make an assumption that not many in the UK have heard the RM10/Quad 57 combo.

Roger should take a business trip to the UK packing a couple RM10's. Visit a few Quad 57 owners.

ct0517

Owner
Bdp24 - I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad.
Hi Eric, I am anxious to have you hear music with the RM10, and a single pair of your quads. Hurry up, move house and buy an RM10 already ! lol

Perforated Grill

For those like I that run their 57's naked; this is the material recommended by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions if you are worried about children, pets or a clumsy you ....and the voltage involved.

For those reading that might be thinking what all the fuss is about ?

57 Panels

A pic of one of my 57 speakers. You need to keep your body parts away from the panels that the bottom white wires go to. The tweeter panel can be seen in the middle surrounded by two bass panels. This is direct voltage. The only thing in front of the panels after you remove the protective screens, is a saran wrap like clear dust cover.

Bdp24 - There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain.
Tweeter

that's $1600 cdn dollars.

I make an assumption that not many in the UK have heard the RM10/Quad 57 combo.

Roger should take a business trip to the UK packing a couple RM10's. Visit a few Quad 57 owners.

ct0517

Owner
Bdp24 - I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad.
Hi Eric, I am anxious to have you hear music with the RM10, and a single pair of your quads. Hurry up, move house and buy an RM10 already ! lol

Perforated Grill

For those like I that run their 57's naked; this is the material recommended by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions if you are worried about children, pets or a clumsy you ....and the voltage involved.

For those reading that might be thinking what all the fuss is about ?

57 Panels

A pic of one of my 57 speakers. You need to keep your body parts away from the panels that the bottom white wires go to. The tweeter panel can be seen in the middle surrounded by two bass panels. This is direct voltage. The only thing in front of the panels after you remove the protective screens, is a saran wrap like clear dust cover.

Bdp24 - There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain.
Tweeter

that's $1600 cdn dollars.

I make an assumption that not many in the UK have heard the RM10/Quad 57 combo.

Roger should take a business trip to the UK packing a couple RM10's. Visit a few Quad 57 owners.

ct0517

Chris, Roger is very serious about making his amps load tolerant. He does not approve of the high output impedance of many (most?) tube amps, as they interact with the speaker's often falling impedance at high frequencies (the Quad 57's impedance falls to around one ohm up there!), the pairing of which results in a rolled off high end. I didn't ask Roger, but I'll bet he worked on the RM-10 until it could provide a flat frequency response when driving the Quad. Solid State amps have very low output impedances of course, but for whatever reason aren't usually a good match with the old Quads, the Bedini 25/25 and small Class-A Levinson's being notable exceptions.

There is a new add-on tweeter that may be great with the Quad---the Townshend Audio Maximum Supertweeter. It's gotten great reviews in Britain.

bdp24

Owner
my bdp24 name comes from my favorite drumset finish and bass drum size, Black Diamond Pearl and 24".

:^) nice

Very interesting post Eric. Thanks for sharing with us here. Wanted to touch on a couple of your points.

I put the bottom pair raised up so the middle of the panel was 36" off the floor, with the upper panel right above the bottom, almost touching.
My single pair are 27 inches off the ground. That puts the middle of the panels at 42" high. They are pointed straight and angled at my shoulders in that room.
They are on Arcici black stands which sit on the black concrete bricks. A total WAF design........

Many found the very top of the speaker lacking (including Mark Levinson, who added a Decca tweeter to the stacked panels in his HDQ loudspeaker), so John did some measuring (he was an old-school EE type). He attributed the falling response to the narrow strip in the middle of the tweeter panel. Everyone thinks the 57 is a two-way design, but it's not, it's a three way. The highest frequencies emanate from only the very center of the tweeter panel, which because of it's smaller radiating surface doesn't provide as much output as the rest of the tweeter panel does for the lower highs. So John altered the x/o, boosting the output of the ultra-highs, which elevates and extends the high end of the speaker.
Interesting comment about Mark Levinson. So I was thinking about this one because it comes up a lot like the bass bottom octave issue.
I have gone through a bunch of amps with the 57's including Quads' own amp/preamp combo (SS). None of the SS amps allowed me to get away without having to add in an external tweeter.
I was using an external dome tweeter to which you could add or take away resistors. You tuned it by - adding resistors (it became less prominent) or removing resistors (to make it more noticeable) This tweeter actually worked really well with the DM70's, Their ESL panel is a thin design, and especially if they are placed on the floor, the speaker is not high enough to your ears.
Here is a pic of the B&W DM70 ESL speaker with that external tweeter I was using.

B&W DM70 w/ext Tweeter

It helped.

It is not until I decided one day to just try my RM9 with the 57's - very carefully to not damage them - that I heard some magic happen. This got me very curious, I did research and this is what led me to Roger's RM10. I had no idea at the time that the RM10 he developed was done so with 57's. The speaker and its role in the RM10 amp design is discussed in the RM10 owners manual. But what did Roger in using the Quad 57 as his model for the RM10, do to that amp, that no longer requires me to use an external tweeter ? That is the Question for me ? I am really happy with the HF output with the RM10. I also believe the height I have them at - 42 inches at the mid panel - has something to do with this as well.

I listen to a lot of music with vocals, and the Quads are still unequalled at reproducing them.
Baroque is my most listened to Classical, also well served by Quads. But they just don't cut it with AC/DC, at least not for long!
Baroque

About an hour long. Those reading if you let this play on your computer in the background as you do other stuff. At or away from your computer. I bet you will probably be in a better frame of mind by the end.

Your good results with nearfield subs has me interested in trying it myself Chris. I'm going to put the OB's by the speakers and the sealed Rythmiks by the listening position. I'll let you know how it works for me!---Eric.
Really looking forward to hearing about how it goes.

Cheers Chris

ct0517

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