Very nicely put Doug. So many great sounds that can be put together at this point. To match rooms, budgets, listening preferences and aesthetic tastes.

And your system as I heard it last was a real treat to enjoy.

Hope you are well. Hope to catch up soon once things lighten up down here.

roscoeiii August 23, 2014 02:02

Jeff, you're right, the Vapor speakers are quite tempting given their aesthetics, performance level and pricing.

I have gotten the, "So, which do you like the best," question several times from a friend who has heard about half the systems I have set up in the past 5 years or so, and I believe all the speakers. I will tell you the same thing I tell him; my favorite is the one in the rig at the time.

I suspect that's a thoroughly unsatisfying answer, but there are two reasons for it. One is that I expended my budget differently in order to never have to face that question, as I discovered I love the variety of technology and experiencing it as much as the movement toward an ideal expression of one technology. If I had only one speaker I'd likely still be flipping them regularly in an attempt to attain all the sonic qualities they possess.

Secondly, I attempted to select speakers any one of which could be a long term choice, that is, to perform on a level which I would be happy using. As such it is my experience that I often am happiest with the speaker in the rig. If another is put in, shortly I'm elated with that one...

The experience shows several things, including how quickly we adapt to a new sound, how malleable our perceptions are over time, and how many terrific varieties of systems exist, none having it all in terms of a perfect performance.

In a way they are like pets (I think it would be crude to compare them to children), in that an owner of several pets would struggle to simply dismiss all but one. They are unique and pleasing individually. So also the speakers, as they are unique and bring different experiences, which I consider overall a more powerful enjoyment of the hobby than one experience.

The Vapor easily found a place in my system due to its phenomenal coherence and accuracy, and in that respect it is the equal of the King III ESL. Yes, when it's in my system it's my favorite. :)

Finally, I think you have done a commendable job on your rig! I have the Peachtree Nova in my office running with some vintage Eminent Technology LFT-VI speakers, a nice pairing. I also think Thiel did a good job with the SCS-4T, which reminds me somewhat of the Tannoy dual concentric drivers. I would think the combo of the Peachtree and Thiel speakers would sound very good, snappy, fresh, but not irritating. Kudos on putting a good sub with them; good move. You have selected components which I would strongly consider at that price point, so from my perspective you're doing things right. :)

I have a couple of tweak thoughts for your system; if you are interested feel free to contact me via the messaging system here.

douglas_schroeder August 22, 2014 15:36

Doug,
I've followed the Nimbus white review, really tempting.
I've listened to Vapor audio at Chicago axpona this year.

So, of all the fabulous setups you have.
What is your favorite??????

Jeff

frozentundra August 21, 2014 01:03

Radiohead99, these are DACs under review, so I'm not saying much at this point so as to not spill the guts of the findings before the articles are published. If you wish to contact me privately, we can chat.

I will say, however, that I'm finding a lot of ways to elicit great sound from a variety of USB DACs at all price points, from a few hundred dollars to a couple thousand. Also, so far the 32 bit/384kHz up sampling is very impressive treatment of standard CD's. The quality is broadly better than 24/96 high end players I used/reviewed just a few years ago. At this point I would say a move to a USB 32/384 DAC would almost assure a holistically superior sound to 24/96, and perhaps even 24/192 CD players and DACs from five years ago, in general.

In terms of the server, it couldn't get any easier, as I'm using a stock Mac Mini, ripped using iTunes, and on playback switching between iTunes and Amarra (not the latest version as of about a week go - gotta upgrade that!). Even though the server is far from totally tricked out the SQ is excellent. An aftermarket PC on the Mac Mini is recommended, and I'm using one from Audioquest (Note, it's not the typical IEC plug; I think it's a C7 if I'm not mistaken). The performance will get better over time, but even if it plateaued at this point it would be a success. I can hardly imagine having to go back to discs; it would be a step backwards. Due to circumstances I had the transport in the rig for a while this week and I was happy to get back to the Mac and files (Not rank and file!).

One thing which has become evident is that the quality of the DAC is so pervasive that one should audition several. Choose a DAC which results in a performance level which you feel is far, far better than you anticipated possible. If the sound is nice improvement but not radically superior, keep looking.

BTW, also pay careful attention to the USB cable; it's critical to the performance.
You owe it to yourself to try at least 2 or 3.

douglas_schroeder July 24, 2014 23:39

Doug, Curious about which DAC gave you such a boost in sound quality. Also, if you can please elaborate on your music server solution.

radiohead99 July 23, 2014 16:47

File playback is progressing quite nicely; SQ levels much higher than I anticipated at this point. I'm comparing a wide variety of USB and DAC components and finding a huge range of performance variance as expected.

I urge those who have been slow to make USB cable changes to do so, as there is a figurative world of quality potential to be discovered, even for those with affordable digital front end.

The elevation of the file playback has lifted the performance of the already impressive Vapor Nimbus White, and I expect similar results with Legacy Whisper, King III, Daedalus, etc.

I'm still only working with PCM converted to AIFF, and had industry members in the room to hear. They are impressed with the result which is largely due to the DACs and USB cabling used, and that's before I even have DSD rolling. I strongly encourage those who have been reluctant to start out with file playback. It has been several months, and I haven't a desire to return to Redbook. That says to me the File playback test is a rousing success! And I'm just getting started. :)

douglas_schroeder May 08, 2014 14:43

Roscoe, thank you for the kind words! I'm glad you liked my bunker room! I did a lot of wondering as I built it whether it would pay off, and it certainly has.

System building is such an adventure; I wish you could hear what's happened to the system since you were here. It's much improved, which may seem difficult to imagine, but I would place the improvement perceptually as quite significant. The change is beyond swapping a few cords, more on the order of moving up the line in a speaker brand. I am working with a new DAC and the upscale sound is impressive, making the Nimbus White dramatically better than before. I wouldn't go so far as to say the current sonic quality makes the previous sound poor, but there is a striking upgrade to the experience, perhaps as much as some would say exists between analogue and digital.

douglas_schroeder April 09, 2014 17:07

A little slow in posting, but I had the distinct pleasure of visiting Doug to hear the Nimbus Whites. Wow. A fabulous audio experience and Doug was a fabulous host. Not sure how much I can add to his excellent description of those speakers. Well, I guess my main ocncern was whether with the ceramic drivers they might be a bit bright or fatiguing. And they achieve the rare feat of superb detail retrieval without being bright or fatiguing. A hard balance to achieve.

I have now heard both Nimbus models and they are both superb. Having listened to them in different spaces and over a month apart, I can't speak to the differences. They are far more alike than different.

And wow, Doug has built a fabulous bunker of a listening room. Wow, such thought and effort that went into that room. An ideal listening environment in my opinion.

Only wish I had more time to spend there. Bravo!

roscoeiii April 08, 2014 23:33

Doug, Very helpful feedback on your speakers! Thank you..

radiohead99 March 29, 2014 08:08

Roscoeiii, Yes, most definitely, these speakers and panels in general differ greatly in how capable they are in pressurizing the room. The Legacy Whisper and Vapor Nimbus White can do so with ease, the Daedalus Ulysses can do so, but with higher SPL, or with the attending BOW supplemental woofer (also discussed in the review).

The King Sound King III ESL has a surprising amount of bass presence but cannot generate the focused impact of the Legacy and Vapor. I use subs with the King III ESL and the effect is impressive. Panel vs. dynamic is quite a different experience and one cannot typically have the benefits of both at the same time.

douglas_schroeder March 21, 2014 16:34

Though, based on my experience with the Nimbus Black, it should be made clear that the Nimbus also possess the slam and ability to pressurize a room that panels IME lack.

roscoeiii March 21, 2014 03:34

Radiohead99, I have already spent some time discussing the differences between the Whisper and the Nimbus White in the review, and bit here, I believe, so I'll ask that curious parties mine these resources for that comparison.

The Daedalus Ulysses is quite a different design, as it is influenced by the harmonics of an acoustic instrument, namely that of a guitar. Consequently, the cabinet will interact with the drivers differently, the driver complement is arranged symmetrically, and the overall presentation is "softer", or more "forgiving" in a sense, closer to a Vandersteen, Salk or Chapman sound, as opposed to speakers like Rhaido, Wilson or Vivid.

I have taken to calling such differences in general "Romantic" sounding speakers versus "Surgical" sounding speakers. I am avoiding the word "clinical" when referring to the Nimbus White and super-precise speakers because it is NOT sterile at all; the precision is absolutely beautiful, every bit as beautiful as those who love tonality over the last bit of precision feel it is beautiful.

Both types of speakers have their fans. I feel the Ulysses (I do not have the V.2 upgrade) has more definition than some other Romantic speakers. To determine whether you would be happy with either one you must answer the question of whether you seek definition/detail at all costs. If not, then the Ulysses would be agreeable, and if so then you would be better off with the Nimbus (either Black or White version).

I generally push for limitless definition/detail/imaging, for I do not accept the argument that one can have too much of these in an audio system. I believe that when there is a perception of too much detail there are other problems with the rig. Yet, I am always surprised at how easily I slip back into full enjoyment of the Romantic speaker sound. It takes a couple days to adjust to it, but the appreciation of it does return in full. It is delightful to have both types of sound available, just as dynamic and panel sounds are wonderful to compare. The Nimbus White has Electrostatic speaker-like precision, which puts the comparison between the Ulysses and Nimbus more in terms of Panel-like vs. dynamic.

douglas_schroeder March 20, 2014 16:47

Doug, I'd be curious to hear your opinion regarding how the Daedalus Ulysses compares to your other two speakers - Nimbus and Legacy Whisper.

Lou has come up with V.2 upgrade to all his speakers. I've heard it's a significant improvement. I'm guessing your Ulysses doesn't have V.2 upgrade. I'm more curious about difference between Vapor Audio and Daedalus sound. Thank you..

radiohead99 March 20, 2014 01:13

Dpatterson, thank you for the complement; I appreciate it!

As can be seen in my pics of speakers I have used or owned I do not subscribe to the adage that a large speaker is inherently too big for a moderately sized room.
:) I think the Nimbus would have worked in your room, but the overall experience will be better sized and a step up in terms of overall quality with the Joule.

douglas_schroeder March 19, 2014 00:36

Doug, I really enjoyed the review of the Vapor Audio Nimbus. Your comments that the speakers worked well with more moderate components rang a chord with me. The Nimbus was a speaker I was interested in but thought was too large for my room. Your review got me conversing with Ryan Scott and has resulted in my working with him on a Joule build for myself.

dpatterson March 18, 2014 17:56

Agree 100% with you. We have the same goal with our front ends. The Mac Mini is only good or special with an upgraded power supply and the software mods. Even then, it can be bettered for sure. I have found that the Offramp and Dynamo are far more important than the server or dac used. These two units don't flavor the sound, rather they remove noise and digital nasties that do violence to the source file/recording.

grannyring March 15, 2014 16:36

Grannyring, I find a wide variance between what audiophiles wish their front end to do, even when it comes to file playback. Formats and software which plump the sound may be less absolutely clean, but are preferred by many as they wish to have a "richer" experience. These audiophiles typically indicate that they wish to have a certain tonality above all. So, there is going to be no consensus on which format or software for playback is best. Add to that the various forms of systems and it is very difficult to proclaim one manufacturer or method "the best." For me, I seek the cleanest file playback and can contour the tonality with the system.

I have been in contact this week with a manufacturer of an audiophile server who states flat out that his server smokes any permutation of Mac, period. I may check that out in due time. One selects their authority and gets their results.

Suffice to say there are many experts/authorities and methods. I find it not uncommon for a relatively unknown (but typically more elegant in design) product to best a powerhouse, or more complex product. I would assume the same will happen regularly as I work through file playback over the years.

douglas_schroeder March 15, 2014 16:18

XLD comments are interesting? No contest in my system and strange indeed. I also convert my AIFF files to WAVE for better sound. Steve has found the same improvement.

Yes, many,many voices and opinions and to date Steve at Empirical is closest to the mark SQ wise!

Have fun!

grannyring March 14, 2014 17:04

Grannyring, thanks for the suggestions. I had discussed with Steve the particulars of the Mac Mini system you describe prior to my setting up the file playback. I also discussed in depth with other manufacturers such things, as well as which file format to use.

Would you be surprised if I found a wide variance in opinions on such matters as hardware, software, ancillary equipment used or not used with such a setup? Indeed, there are numerous opinions as to how best to do so. I made my selection partly based on the fact that I intend on reviewing various file playback systems. I also was not interested in purchasing an old Mac unit which would need to be heavily modded. Imo, I would anticipate that I will at some point encounter a server which will vastly outperform the Mini. So, I am not going "all in" financially until I weigh what the server options are. This current file playback setup is my starting point and I anticipate it will be quite different in a few years.

I have no interest in sorting out the XLD thing; my rips have shown no degradation by avoiding it. As I indicated, the XLD files do not sound any better than ones ripped using iTunes. So, when you say, "Stay away from iTunes," I disagree based on my results. Perhaps a factor in the positive results was that I treated every disc with a disc treatment. I cannot say so definitively as I did not conduct a comparison; I treated the discs for Redbook playback and the treatment was highly efficacious for that purpose.

So... I started out with as close to a clean slate as I could. My guess is the front end will develop (BTW, I am on a one man crusade against the improper use of the word "evolve" in discussion of anything requiring intelligence) into perhaps something quite different in the not too distant future. :)

douglas_schroeder March 14, 2014 15:30

XLD ripped files sound better than iTunes. Stay away from iTunes. Play all your files from Amarra also using their playlist. This also sounds far better than iTunes.

XLD works perfectly for me and many? Need to sort that out. Perhaps performing all the software optimizations outlined by Larry of UltraFi will help you.

grannyring March 13, 2014 21:32

Doug please talk to Steve at Empirical Audio about your Apple Mini front end. You want to get the best out of it so consider these upgrades....

Better linear power supply for the Mini
Use Amarra with its built in EQ tools
Get a Offramp and Dynamo power supply and his BNC cable
Get the software optimization book for your Apple Mini ..... Must do!

It will transform your digital front end way beyond any CD spinner. No kidding. I just went through all of this learning with Steve's help.

grannyring March 13, 2014 21:26

Legacy will build AERIS with a 6-post terminal plate that will allow a full range of external amp options so you can obtain a pair that allow for circumventing the onboard ICE amps if you wish in favor of your own standalone stereo or mono amps. With the 6-post terminal plate you can choose to run the bass and sub-bass drivers through 1 stereo amp or set of monoblocks or even choosing to have 2 stereo amps or 2 sets of monoblocks to run the bass and sub-bass channels with their own independent amplification!

zephyr24069 March 13, 2014 13:09

Thanks Doug

aldavis March 11, 2014 21:02

From hearing the Aeris at shows I would suggest it to have a more plump and perhaps slightly more open midrange than the Nimbus White, primarily due to use of an 8" Midrange driver. Imo, simply the size of the Midrange driver has a pervasive influence upon the performance. I tend to prefer no less than 5" Mid driver(s).

The DSP bass in Aeris is very useful especially for difficult rooms, but it comes at the cost of only one amp option - the built-in Class D. Legacy is aware that I recommend the option of eschewing the on board amp for one's own choice. Yes, built-in amp and cable cost savings via integral amp are significant.

In terms of soundstage, noting the height difference I believe the nature of the Mid/Treble experience would be roughly similar with a nearly M/T/M driver config in the Aeris compared to a perfect M/T/M in the Nimbus White, excepting the comment previously made about the nature of the Legacy's mid driver. I would not simply declare one of these better than the other. In order to find a preference I would have to compare in my room.

Suffice to say there are plenty of differences to compare. Like Vapor, Legacy offers wonderful value to performance ratio, so I'd have to hear them both to judge more strictly.

I know about the Perfect Storm but will maintain confidentiality on it's construction. Suffice to say it will be impressive.

douglas_schroeder March 11, 2014 20:57

Thank you Doug. I had been using L'Art du Son but have run out. I will seek out the Essence.

rockadanny March 11, 2014 14:17