This system is built around the Apogee Centaur Major ribbon speakers. They are capable of painting an incredible image where musicians are distinctly placed in a 3-D space right in front of you. Incredibly small details (fingers drawn over strings, foot tapping, breathing, keys clicking, individual voices from the audience and their location) are plainly discernible. The goal of this system is to deliver the most accurate image possible with as tone that is realistic as possible. This includes soundstaging, detail, depth, tightness of image, and tonal accuracy throughout the frequency range. I want tonal neutrality, with neither a noticeable leanness or warmth.
I got these speakers from the original owner who is a very accommodating and gracious person. These speakers cost $1,500 and were in mint condition. They were made in ~1992. They would cost at least 7 times as much to purchase these speakers if they were made new today.
I have found that my vinyl player is clearly superior to my CD source. Both my analog and digital sources are Stereophile Class B rated (for what that is worth). Both sound very, very nice, but the vinyl unit is clearly the superior performer. I am shocked by the full-textured beauty that comes from my turntable sometimes.
I have heard several other Apogee owners' systems and they all prefer tubes in one way or another over solid state. I don't dislike tubes per se (I think they sound very nice), but I feel that the right solid state amplifier will give me a more accurate reproduction of the music, which is my goal. Tube warmth and fatness sounds nice, but to me it is not necessarily accurate and does not really fit the goals I have for my system. I want transparent solid state amplifiers with a rich tone that resolves the detail and instruments very well in space.
This system plays acoustic music (or music that is recorded and engineered like an acoustic session) extremely well. Poorly engineered, cacophonic rock music and the like doesn't sound good on this system because the poor recording quality becomes evident and it sounds like noise. Don't get me wrong, I love me some AC/DC and Bad Religion, but I usually listen to that kind of music in my car or on a system with a 1970's monster Kenwood KR-9600 receiver and The Advent/1 speakers. I usually listen to jazz, blues and classical on the Apogee system. My musical tastes are varied, however, including country, reggae and ska, rock and roll, rap, R&B, funk, latin, zydeco, bluegrass, etc.
One half of the living room (my listening room, 16' x 23') is set up as the dedicated hi-fi listening area. The Apogees are 4' 5" from the rear wall, 4' 11" apart from each other at the inner edge, and 8' from the listening position. The best listening position is relatively close to the speakers, which lets direct sound waves reach the listener faster and with greater amplitude than reflections from the rear and side walls. A rug was placed directly in front of the speakers. Vibrapods under the components isolate them extraordinarily well from the sharper foot fall vibrations. Bookshelves were placed on the rear wall and on the side of the speakers to reduce some reflections. Nothing is placed on the wall behind the speakers to amplify the three dimensional image produced by rear-firing sound waves from the dipole ribbons combined with the forward-firing waves. Placing the speakers 53" from the rear wall produces the optimal depth-of-field illusion.
Since I bought the base components of this system, I have replaced the ICs and amplifier. I replaced Nordost Red Dawn ICs with 1 Synergistic Research Tesla Accelerator (preamp -> amp) and 2 Gabriel Gold Revelations ICs (sources -> preamp). The GGs provide incredible frequency extension on the top and bottom and a very rich tone, and the SR provides great 3D soundstaging and detail. They seem to work in conjuntion so that the positive qualities of both are accentuated. I'm very happy with them. I replaced my Classe CAP-150 amp with a Parasound HCA-2200 Mk2 Ultra High Current. This amp is a beast. It has an incredible amount of current and bass emphasis which finally makes the C-Major woofers come alive, and its reputation of rolled-off highs seems to complement the Apogee MRT ribbons perfectly, which can be slightly bright. Soundstaging is deeper and just phenomenal now, with incredibly rich tone from bass up to the highest highs. I also replaced the Parasound power cord with a PS Audio Statement power cord. It has a 6 gauge copper conductor and I plug it straight into the wall. This had a very positive effect on the amp, increasing response and tightness in all the frequency ranges and focusing the image slightly. The rest of my components are plugged into a PS Audio Juice Bar (a star-wired power strip) which is again plugged directly into the wall. I'm going to get another PS Audio power cord to run between the Juice Bar and wall outlet when one becomes available. I'm very happy with the sound from this system now. If you are in Austin and want to hear some hybrid Apogees, I'm amenable to an audition, just send me an email.
I am a huge fan of Apogee ribbons. I'm addicted to the sound stage and natural presentation of tone that they provide. I have owned Stages in the past and think they are the best speakers I have ever owned. Once I bought my second house after my divorce and started to build a hi-fi system again, I had the chance to buy these mint condition Centaurs in Houston. I would rather have some Duetta Sigs or Stages with full range ribbons, but the Centaurs are still very nice speakers that provide an excellent sound stage. The mid range is a little lean compared to the Stages with a ribbon mid/bass panel, but I am still very happy with them. It's not every day you can pick up a mint pair of Apogees. I am building the rest of my system around these ribbons.
Creek CD-50 MkII/Classic
I am pleased by the detail and sound stage of this unit. I placed Vibrapods placed under the unit to isolate from foot falls on the wood floor. They greatly improve clarity.
VPI Industries Scout
I like how the motor is isolated from the body. But it has its quirks mechanically. I placed a large butcher block and Vibrapods under the unit to isolate it.
Benz Micro Glider M2
Very detailed and neutral with a sound stage that pleases me. Very nice cart.
Mod Squad Duet
I love this pre. The passive line stage is the nuts. Utterly transparent and with my other components, it projects a huge and detailed sound stage from my Apogee ribbons. Isolation of instruments in space after using this unit is quite pronounced. The phono stage is nice, but the limitation in this piece of equipment is that the noise floor in the moving coil stage is not as low as I would like it to be. It is still very acceptable and listenable with a 0.8 mV cartridge, however. The phono stage is very neutral, has impedance settings for the MC stage, has both MC and MM stages. The unit's design makes it very configurable. The exact method/topology of preamplification is accomplished by using jumpers on RCA connections at the rear of the units. It has an extra active gain stage if needed in the phono unit. It is very novel and quite unlike any piece of equipment I've ever owned. I'm very happy with it overall.
Symo Bi-wire
These Symo speaker cables came with my Apogees. Jason Bloom originally recommended these for Apogee speakers. They seem to have very thick copper cable inductors. I'm impressed with them.
Vibrapods isolation feet
For their small cost, I am astounded that they made a very noticeable difference in my system. I placed them underneath my turntable and CD player. I noticed that the clarity of the CD player has increased noticeably.
Nitty Gritty 1.5 Record Cleaning Machine
This is easily the best upgrade I have ever made to my system. having clean records is of primary importance and makes a huge difference if you buy used vinyl. This is an indispensable piece of equipment.
Gabriel Gold Revelation
I just received two Revelation IC pairs from Steve. After listening for two hours and experimenting with different positions for these two cables in my system, the results are fairly astounding. I already had one length of Synergistic Research Tesla Accelerators which sounds very good. I am happy with them but I wanted to compare them to the GGs to see which I would stay with long term. My goal was to first see if I find some synergy with the one GG and the two SRs in the system at the same time, and if not, to go with a complete complement of ICs from just one of the manufacturers. I moved the cables around to every position and found nirvana in one particular configuration. The configuration that works best in my system is with the GGs placed between the two sources (CDP and TT) and the preamp, and the SR placed between the preamp and amp. This configuration sounds unbelievably good. I'm astonished. This is exactly what I was looking for when I started thinking about recabling my system and leaving Nordost Red Dawns. The tone is amazingly beautiful and rich. The sound stage/image is just perfect. Instruments are the correct size (pianos take up much more space in the sound stage, cymbals are more pin-point). The sound coming from my speakers is perfectly nuanced and sounds just a little bit "sweet". It wasn't warmth per se, but sweetness. I have experienced a feeling like this once before when I heard my first Conrad Johnson tube preamp. It struck me immediately as sounding "sweet". I am 100% happy with this set up. Placing the GG between the preamp and the amp, and placing the SR between the source and pre sounded good, but not great. The tone is good, but the image is just a little incoherent. This next configuration surprised me the most of all. Placing two GGs between the source and preamp, and also between the preamp and amp sounded the least appealing of any configuration. The image just was not very coherent, so it sounded like the instruments were tripping over one another and invading each other's space. This could be attributed to the fact that these cables have not burned in for any length of time yet. Also, I use a passive preamp, and the system just may not be happy with two GGs on either side of this preamp. I did notice that I had to definitely turn the preamp's volume knob up another 30-35 degrees to get the same volume level in this configuration. It is obvious to me that these are incredible cables and I do not think that the result of my system's sound in this configuration should be passed off on the cables. I would describe these cables by saying that having a phenomenally rich tone is one of their properties. YoYo Ma's cello has that full cello sound which I had been hoping to get. Pianos sound like the big, beautiful instruments that they are. I can still hear the little details from the audience in live recordings that I like to hear (I could hear the cash register at the bar on my "Miles Davis - Live at the Plugged Nickel" LP, lol). Both the bass and top end are both equally represented with correct emphasis and excellent detail. These cables are a great bargain and I couldn't be happier with them. I would contrast these GGs to the SR Tesla Accelerators by saying that by themselves, the sound stage produced by the SRs is more 3 dimensional than the GG, but the GG's tone is much richer than that of the SR. Both have very good extension in the upper and lower frequency ranges. Granted, the GGs have not burned in yet. If their properties change significantly in the next few hundred hours of listening, then I will update that event here.
Synergistic Research Tesla Accelerator
Great IC that has great detail, a very large 3-D sound stage, great extension in the upper and lower frequencies. Read my Gabriel Gold description to see how these cables all perform in my system.
Parasound HCA-2200 mkII
This amp is the nuts. I love it. It has tons of current to power my thirsty woofers and ribbons. It also has plenty of bass emphasis to really make these speakers sound full range. The reputed rolled-off highs work perfectly with my speakers which can sound a bit bright. Soundstaging is very deep, wide and detailed in my system. I'm utterly impressed with this amp.
I totally understand. I wrestled with that window for a while. It's a thorn in my side. The left speaker's ribbon is actually to the right (inside) of the window. So the left speaker's ribbon reflects off the wall and not the window. The speakers are 4' 11" apart because that's the length of the Symo speaker. With the listening position about 8 feet from the speakers placed in their current position, the image and detail and pretty well focused. This room has 3 doors, a fire place and 2 large-ish windows. This wall was the only one that would remotely allow me to place Apogees against it, but it's still not perfect. I'll try shutting the curtain and see how that sounds.
I just noticed your left speaker back fires on a window. Go up and shout at the window, and see how your echo sounds..... Pretty hurtful. I see you have a curtain. That can help a little. For serious listening sessions I would hang a panel over the the window. In my own system room, I find hanging my antique quilts over my windows helps some. An area rug would help on reflections too. Find fine ones cheap at eBay.
Have you experimented with separating the speakers more?
The H20 is an amp that needs peculiar systems to work it's magic. Henry's Fire is the best preamp for it. Few others match the H2O's low impedance to sound well. Wires must be naked, especially speaker cables. Power cords on all components must be fully shielded from all RFI and EMI. Front ends must be vinyl, or non-oversampling. Most over sampler CDPs sound god awful on the H2O. You have to hear my system to understand this.
Also, you stand alone in your speaker hierarchy. No one else I know of would place the Stage, or Centaur above the Scintilla at any frequency. I have heard scores of Stage speakers powered by all means, and none can touch the top to bottom purity of a well powered Scintilla.
I was refering to my own systems, not yours. You have not heard mine either. Note that I have had three Scintillas and I have also owned the H2O, which is not my taste. So I am speaking out of my experience, just as you are although you start with your own system and then generalize it :)
You ask me to reconfirm:
"You were declaring that particular Kapton backed ribbon as better than the naked ribbon array of the Scintilla."
So the answer is yes. But the naked ribbon of the Scintilla is superior to that of the Diva, so my answer cannot be generalized.
There is nothing unpeaceful about this discussion, and I am enjoying it.
That is correct, muralman. I think the kapton-back multi-traced 5-way or 6-way ribbon of the C-Major and stages is better than the Scintilla, but mind it it is not just the ribbon but also the associated magnet and the crossover. I tried the C-Major ribbon actively and it did not please me.
The half of C-Major is my main reference reference speaker making the best combination, out of 8 or 9 pairs..... I fotgot how many I have. Gosh. I should sell some now.
You can make your own power cords using Belden wire, and good quality plugs. Please do not spend a fortune on wires. They do so little, and what the do is not good for fine systems. I would love to hear your vinyl rig sing.
I think I do aspire to the Scintillas eventually, but realistically I will be with these C-Majors for a very long time. They do sound pretty darned good now and I'm really happy with them. But I do miss the sound of stringed instruments on full range ribbons, the palpable texture of the sound is excellent. But the C-Majors are good enough to make me forget that (most of the time). :-)
Thanks for the recommendation about the power cord, GD. I'll look into it. I'm outside working with some tree trimmers who are trimming all the live oaks in my yard right now, so I'll check them out later.
Average customer turning to hybrids? Heck no. And no, the C-Major is not for small rooms only.
I do not mind teasing you somtimes but not now. The Centaur-Major has better midrange than the Scintilla..... Sue me.
I marginally prefer the Scntilla overall over the C-Major but the upper half of C-Major is better that Scintilla's upper half. Overall the C-Major is a better speaker than the Diva. Even the stage has better midrange than the Scintilla, without taking anything away from the latter.
And what did you say about tubes distortion piling up?
I am impressed with you, and by that I do not mean just your system but your listening skills. A lot of folks spend money and then assume their system sounds better not to mention their running down to their computers and posting heated arguments on audio forums. It is so childish but so common that every forum has got one or two guys like this. My observation of this phenomenon led me to define a law that I call "the inverse law of bad mouth and sound quality" which defined as follows: The worse the system sound, the more quarrel-some and bad mouthing the owner. hahahahahah
There are one or two guys at the Apogee forum whose homes I visited and was horrified to see and hear their system. They are the most vicious and nasty in their posts. On the contrary, most calms guys have serene posts as they are content with what they listen and probably because they are more happy and satisfied in their listening. I also visited such people. So I made a hypothesis and it is turning out to be true :)
Anyway, coming back to your observations, you are right about power conditioner. I stay away from them. They do more harm then good but folks are led into belief that it works because they have spent money. The power chord has the most dramatic effect on sound, and for good reasons as the chord acts as a filter. The best is to get dedicated lines and buy power chords sensibly. I have FIM power chords that Paul Weitzel (the maker of Tube Research Labs amp) made for me. They retail for much more. I like them but I found Element Cables cheap power chords (retailing for $100 or so) to be as good and having as much impact. If you liked my amp recommendation, then I even strongly recommend trying out element cable power chord. You do not need to spend megabucks even for power chords as Elements cables are just great at affordable price.
Thank you Geojap for the compliment. I would say no other $10k system could touch this. None of us rest on our laurels for any length of time. I agree with you on your assessment of the Scintilla. I get letters from others who feel the same way.
Apogee had the average customer in turning to hybrids. They acquit themselves very well in smaller rooms. I heard slant 7s a long time ago. I remember Ella Fitzgerald like she was standing there in person. I had just set up Stage speakers at the time, using the household outlets, and power strips. That was 6 years ago.
Now I have eight dedicated outlets, and Scintillas. BTW, Those Scintillas will be most likely be for sale soon.......... ;)
System edited: Thanks for all the help from both of you, Muralman and Gallant Diva. I'll be constantly upgrading my system so this isn't the end. I couldn't have gotten it to sound this good as quickly though without your help. If I ever have the opportunity to get a Scintilla system up and running (without too terribly much pain to the checking account, re-purchasing amps and preamps and cables, etc.), then I'm going to do that, Muralman. The Scintillas are the best speakers I've ever heard in person (in my limited, 7-years-or-so of audiophile experience). I just got some PS Audio power gear and installed it. I bought a Juice Bar and a Statement power cord. I thought that the logical configuration would be to run the CD player directly to one of the two available wall outlets (to preclude the CD players digital nastiness from contaminating the current to the other components). Then plug everything but the CD player into the Juice Bar, and then run the Statement between the Juice Bar and the wall outlet. Well, this didn't work so well. Bass response tanked. So I meddled with it until I found the best configuration that sounds remarkably good with improved bass response and slightly better overall image definition (compared to without the PS Audio gear). I ran the Statement power cord from the Parasound directly to the wall outlet and plugged everything else into the Juice Bar. This sounds very good. I interpret these beneficial effects as the amp now has ample overhead to do its job without interference, as it is plugged directly into the wall. I'm still going to look for a few more low-gauge power cords to insert into the system to improve things further. Eventually I'll get an electrician out here to replace, isolate and upgrade the circuit to this outlet.
That is a lovely room, and system you have there. Apogees are the all time best speaker for recreating living music.
I agree with you on too many tubes. I am very familiar with a top dollar Audio Note system worth in the six figures. You pile enough of tube's pleasant even distortion, and the system loses it's hold on proper timbre. You can hear this best if you listen to acoustic instruments. An orchestra provides a myriad of instruments. Many can be confused with each other, if their tone is obscured. I might add there is another amp type that can work well for some people, that would be class D. ;)
I am glad you liked the Parasound HCA 2200. Your speakers are much more capable than what many people believe. I rate them above the Divas, no matter what people normaly believe. You ahve harnessed the woofer, which needs high current because of its sealed enclosure. Your ribbon still has more potential to offer but if you are happy now, that is perfectly fine.
System edited: I changed my ICs to Gabriel Gold Revelations and Synergistic Research Tesla Accelerators. I also changed my amp from a Classe CAP-150 to a Parasound HCA-2200 Mk2 Ultra High Current. The Parasound doesn't have an extremely high reputation in the hi-fi community, but it fits these speakers perfectly. I'm extremely impressed with it. It is incredible if it matches your speakers. Thanks for the recommendation, GD.
And Apogee knew it too, thats why they added one more trace and made it a bit longer on the Grand. The Grand has a 6 trace kapton midrange driver, similiar to yours ;-)
Wow. Really nice speakers. I have some Aurum Cantus speakers, which also use ribbon. But I'd love to listen to one of these speakers with the long ribbon sometime :)
GD, thanks a ton. I appreciate the info to think about and digest. I do plan on upgrading my amplification soon and will take into account what you've suggested.
