Thanks for the update Jim. I knew you`d be pleased with the Herbie`s tweeks.
My rig is simple. One int. amp...one cdp. Another of our learned audiophile bretheren suggested that I put my two maple stands, which were on spikes, on hand balls which were first inserted into pvs pipe ends. I did that and the improvement in instrument timbre, soundstage, etc. was substantial. You might try this inexpensive tweak. Well worth it imo.
I also fabricated my own side, 1st reflection stands out of plywood and carpet. Another inexpensive and easy tweak.
Where I lleft off was with the sub. it wasn't an extended stay. it died early the folllowing AM. Dealer said bring it back and I did. I'm hinky about things that die right off or go wrong shortly after getting them. I kept one that did that and I regreted it all the while. Dealer got it working almost completely. Implored me to keep it for another month and at time if I didn't like it bring it back. i declined. A few times. tried to get another one but neither he nor I was sure enough as to which would suit me I felt uncomfortable in buying another yet differenet type. he cheerfully credited my accounts.
that episode proved a good one on the whole. I had placed the older one into the HT system. Set it up and just left it there. now down to just two speakers I moved them about some and got used to 2.0 again, instead of 2.1 listening. good thing. learned a lot there. Running it without a X over it ran full.. 30-200Hz. that was affecting the sound though I was only partially aware of it. With the muddeled mid bass now clearer and cleaner... things on the whole improved. I took a giant step towards the DNM (dreaded neutral monster) I had so feared for so long.
having a near empty room I began to put stuff into it. things improved. I did notice keeping the aray balanced was helpful mostly.
I called six contractors to hang doors to enclose the room. two showed up. one wanted a couple grand for two pocket doors, one pre hung, and one set of bi-folds... if he did it but didn't want the work. hmmm. That issue is still open and looks like I'm going back into the carpentry trade soon as i get some accessibility featured tools.
on the treatments fromt.. I made a couple attempts there to acquire color swatches of some 'panel' absorbers. Called once, offered the money for them, and the manufacturer graciously denied it saying he'd send them along. Some weeks later not having received them I emailed him again asking what's up, and he said he would send them personally, I included my mailing address... I'm still waiting.... or going elsewhere i suppose. As I was prepared once a friend saw the colors available to make an order just then and willing to pay the upcharge for the likely color pick would be in that category.
on the tube and iso tweaking plateau I sought out steve of herbies Audio labs and began with some iso cups and tube rings.
In my now former BAT vk5i, I put the halo rings onto all the six signal tubes. no minor move there! Far better focus and relief of images was had. maybe as much as 50% better. I also got a pair of the Peak rings. Put them onto the shunts in my pre. those are the ones off by themselves and the same nine pin small tubes. yes. worth the money there too. the nickel rings for the large 5881s didn't do much if anything in my preamp so they went back for credit.
the herbies iso cups were put under the xa 777 es CDP. replacing some wood footers another gracious member had sent me. the first set came with two distinctly different balls. one Poly, one ebony. for me, the Ebony were the deal. Two in the rear, one up front. All on a old cheap particle board shelf I ripped off of a TV roll around stand. They have been mighty useful as a number of components I have are on them, though separated by footers.
I like the iso cups so much that i bought anoher set for the BAT preamp. That move proved not quite as good however, and Steve had said that was a posibility before hand.
Somewhere in there i ran across an Elrod Power systems Sig 3 power cord. Definite added bonus was had by acquiring it for sure. it supplies my amps cords via a PS power filter, the UPC 200.
Almost a month later or so, I saw a VooDoo tesla 2 for sale. I never had tried one but Bruce of VooDoo knowing my system said for some time having it would be a benefit. it is. Was adn is. Like the Elrod? No. Beneficial nonetheless.it brings you far closer to the musidc. it's IMO a high res power cord no question, but the way it layers things and added texture to my rig is just really neat. Sorry, perhaps not an authorized audiophile term, but apt.
now. the BAT is gone. I've really thought about that and to this moment i'm not sure what possessed me to sell it, but sell it I did. At first the thoughts of added flexibility were the driving force. But a terrible showing of one highly touted preamp, and my impatience moved me to uncomfortability. had to have something.
then there it was... and I made a deal for it. Now all that is left is to finalize the payment and delivery. Which will happen day after tolorrow, then wait. it has four tubes - not ten. how do you spell relief? it ain't spelled ROLAIDS... I spell it THOR. 'lEST THERES AN r IN THERE.
SO IN EFFECT MANY GOOD CHANGES AND LEARNING EXPERIENCES HAVE COME AND GONE.
Sadly I'm not much forther along with panels and such... though it's not for lack of trying. So I'll keep doing just that. Trying. learning. Fussing. Fretting. and in there somewhere the sound is getting better somehow... in spite of my plans... and the sound is the fun.
Well, as things don't always go accroding to plan (s).. but eventually always work out... the most recent acquisition is likely the most long sought after and surely needed item... a new sub. with treamtnents being in the fore, it was a hard decision. Some things made the choice easier though... it's the same brand as the VR4 JR's, same color for all units and that's a first for me... it's new with fac warranty.... and the price fit the wallet.
I can't help but think that it will aid the system by a wide margin, given what it is replacing is near nine yrs. old with no X over, phase adj. or IEC cord... just a volume knob and 100 wpc.
introducing the elrod, the tube rings, and iso cups, one of the two PSA Duets have sincerely gained the system greater focus. better imaging. unreal voclizations and midrange transparency. ... and way, tighter bottom to mid bass performance. overall, "articulately musical and defined" to another level heretofore not realized.
super chunks are in the works, and panels as well. Chunks are a DIY measure, the panels will be pre-fab.
Still looking for floor standing, or wall mounted difussers... either DIY, or ready rolled.... Any suggestions on Diffusers??
UPDATE.. oRDERED IN ANOTHER COMPLETE SET OF TUBES, SAME AS BEFORE, SIMPLY FOR BAKCUP.. NOS tubes that are tested well, and matched, which provide excellent results are hard to find. Once found... get 'em beofre they are gone. the power cord thing was addressed too. Whole different brand than I've ever had, but am glad to have it. ONe more and I'll be set with PC's. I bought an Elrod Sig 3 as supply cord for the Hydra/VK500.
Now back to the next item.. room treatments. eg, above... any sources known that give great results in the area behind the speakers? ONe source says, "Skyline" diffusers, from RPG... I think.
...good idea. I will. All day today I've been going over my notes gotten from online DIY room treatments.. absorbers, mostly, tube traps too. Looked at Parts Express as well for some diffusing foam gizmos, but I'm not too impressed by the appearance.. or the costs... about $20 each for 2ft x 2ft x 3".. $80+ for 2 - 4ft applications... just to sort of see what's up with the stuff.
Giving Auralex. a call ought to help. I hope.
got the re-tubing biz out of the way... and am ontrack to get the tube rings tomorrow morning... along with some ISO cups from Herbie Audio Labs. 10 rings, 3 cups... w/2 ball types for each.
On the tube bit... and just to clear up something I found out quite by accident, yet I did post accordingly that errant bit of info at the time... I'll recant it now as I do know for sure the correct way:
I'll not quote the source, though it's a highly regarded one... the BAT vk5i has eight tubes... six signal, two output, and two shunts the shunts have accordingly been shunned in regard to the class of tube being used in those slots no more. During the talk with the tube source, the notion I try another pair in there was provided me as something to do I did. Yep. Theres something to those slots no night and day diffs but noticeable diffs most noticeable. Another 20 25% gain in overall performance and now I can see further tuning available via the use of just those slots versus a complete retubing. A fairly cost saving tip, Id say.
but back to the other thing (s) Having sent back one of the PCs I've been using, I'm ancy about having another. A big drop off was realized in removing that cord. I also found it was affecting the SS balance, which has regained better proportions. Now though its lesss three dimensional than before. Just wide an tall. Some prominence, and depth but not much. Depends on the recording mostly. Anyhow Im on the road to find out once more.
Run across any resources for inexpensive diffusers, or what ever is supposed to be set rearward of the speakers, do say so. Thanks.
Make a diagram of your room and openings, equipment, seating position etc, and fax it to Auralex. They will give you some thoughts about what type of materials to put where.
I understand your concern about many of the room tuning outfits that wseem to think it's on the same scale as rocket science, and should cost as much.
I got a lot of good information from auralex and used it to very positive effect. What have you got to lose for the price?
Snofun3 Gee, thanks. Very much. have any personal experience buying from them you'd like to try and post?
I checked into the room treatment game some months back... last year I guess. Each one of those 'providers' I spoke with, both local & web-based, wanted to do the room treatments on like a time & materials basis... in other words, just have a blank check signed and ready.... asking for ball park prices from them, some wouldn't say at all, others said from $3500 on up, with an average being about $5,000. None wanted to do anything with me in a 'piecemeal' or stepped path. Pretty much, all or nothing... none were going to use any testing equip aside from their ears. I wasn't too pleased with doing things that way. Perhaps that is the way it's done for others. But for myself, that dog is plumb run out... and a near impossibility. Each said it was all trial and error... there was no exactness in science with room acoustics and treating same. Perhaps not. But just too open ended a deal for me to pursue. So I'm left to doing it a bit at a time now and then and simply doing the treatments in pairs. I am looking forward to it some, though, as many have said the room is a part of the system... as I have discovered near everything else about the system is a part of it....
Thus a first things first approach is the one I'll take. Roughly, it'll go like this?
Get another set of the same tubes I'm using now. Hopefully. Get some rings for them. try the inexpensive herbies feet. Begin experimenting w/ wall treatments behind the speakers and their corners, with cheap diffusing techniques. Do the Kern mod on my CDP, sans the BG caps, but w/new transport and lasers. Do the ceiling & side walls reflections treatment. Close off the room. Either a PC for the amp, or buy a newer but still, used sub... or vice versa, and ultimatley both. Buy a nice tube amp and bi-amp the system.
Roughly, of course. There's the plan but subject to change given romances & finances. Certainly all of the above need be done however. The results of the 'tweaks', & treatments I'll post if the thread is available. If not, then in my system account, as it is added to..
One last notion here is that I am thinking to build wall mounted shelves for all but the amp, instead of building a rack. Make the shelves out of a nice hardwood of course and stain them. That's it. No racking. Shelves. Makes sense to me... and seems the way to go for TTs... Good Idea? ...or not? They'll be mounted through the drywall, and into the studs which are sixteen inch OC.
It sure seems to take me a long time to get close to a change. Justification of it, I guess. In any case these less than exhorbitantly costly items along with the CD upgrade make the most sense. and will be next up to bat.
One poster with tons of experience has convinced me to proceed with the 'room' treatments... aside from the CDP modding from Richard Kern it looks as though Ill be getting my feet wet there too . Cheap stuff at first till things get sort of figured out then maybe the better stuff but Ill be in touch soon. Thanks again.
Blindjim, A long posting to answer your question about how to begin with Herbie's is missing in action. A short version: If you go with the starter teflon ring type for smaller, cooler tubes, and the metal ring type for larger, hotter type tubes, you will get a painless (monetarily, and physically) introduction to tube damping, and probably just stop there. Remember, ninety day home trial. Wow! Also, the simpler footers, selected for component weight, and size, make an even greater, overall sonic improvement in "everything you didn't realize is missing in your system" at very modest cost. Please email through the Audiogon email system so I can answer more easily any questions (perhaps, by phone) arising as you make your choices while communicating with Steve, at "Herbie's". You may want to get that initial feel for what kind of satisfying changes you hear with the basic items, as I did, before thinking about the more expensive part of the product line. Like your previous experience with different species of wood, there is an excess of choices for restless ears to try.
Snofun3, auralex.com seems to have every sort of idea to improve a room. The offered "two hours" of personal interaction with a company rep, after the potential customer sends in his room details, seems amazing. Even without first addressing room effects, and deficiencies, optimizing resonance/vibration control of each individual component box or cabinet can be heard as desirable, audible improvement, to start with. I have leaned toward including the (almost mystical) Machina Dynamica line of products for taming room effects, and enhancing performance of a system. These are virtually invisible when placed, and emulate , even surpass, the benefits of products based on more mainstream acoustic theory. In my systems, many different approaches are complementary, and qualify as potential upgrades, before even shipping away to someone who can offer hands-on upgrading within a component.
Well, the moderators apparently found this offensive in some fashion (love to know why), so I'll try again to answer your question -
For $1k you can solve everything. If you want to get a $25 idea, go to Guitar Center and buy a shet or Auralex and place it in different places in the room.
Go to auralex.com for some excellent ideas on the subject.
as I see there are several to choose from... how far up the food chain did you go? I'm thinking to do all but the shunts... two 5881/6L6, and six 6DJ8/6922/7308... So six of two of the other...
... oh, and what did you experience after addin the rings, if you don't mind saying?
Blindjim, I share your concern about a mat separating from top label surface of CD, and remaining inside the playing mechanism area when the tray moves in or out. That is why whenever I see the first hint of less adherence of the Grungebuster CD mat to the CD's top label side then I rub off the microscopic film of dust or particulate matter on the mat's contact surface with CD label side with a drop of water, or saliva. I don't know if this exchange of bodily fluid for good sound is at all perverse, but if my mat ever gets stolen then a simple $200 DNA test will identify whether the recovered $12.50 Grungebuster CD mat is really mine (audiophile paternity testing). Also, I have been fully outfitted with Herbie's tube rings, and IC connector rings, and it is a very worthwhile upgrade.
...thanks. My intentions exactly... well, almost exactly, I had planned to at least give those tube rings a shot... the mat too. But the mat worries me... if it comes off in there ... uh, oh, you ain't talking about the Cd thingy, you menat the CDP mat... sorry... but yeah I spoke with steve out there last month... and will be back intouch with him in a week or two about the rings and other stuff. I'm also figuring on one of those Lyon's platforms. Neuanse. For the CDP. I'll look into those other notions. Thanks for the heads up.
A few "almost free" upgrades: herbiesaudiolab.com Three $8.85 Big Black Dots beneath each speaker, especially your older sub, on a solid surface such as smooth granite tile on rug, or on wooden floor. There are similar, smaller footers from herbie's for placing under your various components, power conditioner, etc. Their use should make a surprising upgrade for very little money. Although I use a variety of footers, such as Aurios MIB's, Audio Points, Mapleshade brass footers with maple stands, Mi-Rollers, in a number of systems, the most astonishing cost-benefit ratio followed using Herbie's under a part of a sound system, and achieving comparable results to any of these other choices. Because of being a virtually unknown product, the Mi-Rollers are another find which I encourage Audiogoner's to consider, when looking for easy to use, reasonably priced footers. My single best cost-to-benefit recommendation is to try using Herbie's Grungebuster 2 CD mat (currently "2.2") for $12.50. Biggest surprise upgrade for almost no money spent. You will have a lot of fun hearing how much improvement you can add with these upgrades for the masses ideas. Herbie's has a ninety day home trial period, and from my experience, it is doubtful that you will go for a refund. There are a bunch of contact enhancers which I have found can be helpful, even dramatically so, but those probably should be a follow-on upgrade, once you see how easy it is to do some non-invasive upgrading.
Snofun3 thank you. you can do a whole room for 1000 - 1200?
Ncarv Well, ...yes, but that figure is usually more than the figure I want to spend.
Jond Gee... and here I thought the 777 was pretty musical myself... but OK, Any suggestions in that regard?
Jsawhitlock ..preciate it. Got the lines already. 4 of them, and only use 3.
Sns Hmmm.. thanks. Well, by your response, what do you think is the weakest link? I'm just getting to 'really' hear the Sig 10's now... your assesment is mighty close. Problem for me is either fit or likely, and mainly, preffs. they are now config'd as regular wires running the TM. A more than noticeable change occurred at that point. With only a few days along I'm just not sold on every aspect of their performance, and for no reason apart from preffs... so I thought to step up a notch or get another brand. I've a ton of flexibility in tuning my system as is.
Given just these thoughts, and I appreciate them all, the consensus seems just now that I am near done. Yet to make moves with CDP, would be IMO, a sideways step. Different. Not necessarily better, and there would be the more than likely need to change the source ICs too, were I to go that way. Plans for the systems ultimate end is adding that new DAC Bel Canto came up with, but I've seen no one say anything about it's performance. The Flexibility it would offer me, as ALL my sources will be 'digital' is mighty attractive. Given their heritage I am anxious to see something about it.
The room plans are to close off the two openings now there. At that time I was going to add different carpeting, another layer of better drywall, trim, and probably just paint. With that in mind, I guess making some moves in room treatments now couldn't hurt, as once the actual placement is figured out I'd think that little changes would be necessary later... but closing it off might well change a lot. I don't know really.
I'm with Snofun, do room treatments. If you don't want to or can't do the room then I say upgrade the source. If that means modding it fine, otherwise replace it with something better and more musical. There are so many great cd players out there right now it's a no brainer to upgrade, especially at used prices since digital depreciates so quickly. Happy listening!
I agree, do the room. Those Sig. 10's would be the last thing on that list I would change, unless you're looking for some tonal changes. The Sig 10's have a neutral tonal balance with very nice detail, transparency and speed, not even close to the weak link in your system.
