Feel better?

If I may suggest, to keep from having to errupt again, and perhaps again, try considering the various points of view expressed, take what you want, and focus on your own audio cicrcumstances.

And, oh yea, look for what in your life experiecne has made you so angry. I doubt it is posts on the audio forum, if you get my drift.

didactically October 11, 2004 16:31

Are you joking? True to the original? Your audio god used a Sony TCD-D3 Digital Audio Tape Walkman for his master tape. This is obviously MUCH more true to the original than a good analog tape machine. The guy doesn't even at least use a Nagra digital recorder, but of course, the Sony will have the same audio quality as the Nagra, but the gullible mindset of the rest of us brainwashed audiofools will insist that there is a difference in quality between the two models, and that an analog master tape running at 30 or even 15 I.P.S. cannot compete with the Sony DAT walkman because Siegfried Linkwitz says it's "THE TRUTH".

I am also amused by the fact that on his reference CD, of the 28 tracks, only 5 are musical selections, 2 are of an orchestra tuning up, and a full 21 are SOUND EFFECTS. So you must be an expert on "true to the original" sound effects, as opposed to music.

It is also interesting to note of your constant confusion in referring to the Shure EARBUDS, which is your reference standard (not even headphones for cryin' out load!) The Shure is the model E2's and the Etymotic is the model ER-4s. You should learn to differentiate between two manufacturers!

Here's where it gets paradoxical. You throw around the term "true to the original", quote distortion specs as holy writ, and to you and your Guru, measurements are everything. So explain why Siegfried Linkwitz uses an EQ notch filer to change the flat response of the Etymotics to a -5 dB notch at 2.5 kHz and a -8 dB notch at 7.5 kHz?!!!! Whoops, there goes "true to the original". And I guess he must be, to quote you, "[one of] those who for some reason have been persuaded into using their playback system to mix and modify the music they play."

Even more interesting is the statement by Siegfried Linkwitz regarding the Shure model E2 Earbuds. And I quote, "Listening tests to commercial recordings and my own DAT head-related recordings revealed a very realistic tonal balance, frequency extension, superb detail and dynamics without using any equalization. When I actually listened to a slow sinewave sweep, I found a fairly broad peak centered at 3.8 kHz, a mild peak at 5.9 kHz and another peak at 9.2 kHz. I made no attempt at equalization, because the realism of the E2 is so convincing. Also, at all frequencies the sound seemed fuller than with the other models, though I cannot explain why it should."

So what can we gather about that Great Audio Guru Siegfried Linkwitz:

1) He uses an inferior DAT master tape source
2) He is a master of a sine wave sweep tone, and his ears serve as a dB test meter (I guess that shoots your test equipment measurement theory all to hell!)
3) True to the original means drastic frequency response equalization, to destroy a flat frequency response to get the sound right (sweep tones, not music) on the Etymotic's, but the Shure Earbuds with 3 noticeable peaks requires no EQ, "....because the realism of the E2 is so convincing. Also, at all frequencies the sound seemed fuller than with the other models, though I cannot explain why it should." (Again quoting S.K.) Specs are now irrelevant
3) Your theory of monitoring using reference earphones, and "true to the original" are diametrically and irreconcilably opposed.

Your posts are the biggest crock of audio B.S. that I have ever read in my life!

fatparrot October 11, 2004 09:37

Tireguy
You will be pleased to know that since a Lexicon DC-2 Controller (Preamp) and its 24bit DA processor has replaced the Adcom Pre in my system now so the Sony SACD player serves only as transport.

The improvement is easily detected through transparent speakers, laboroulsy properly setup, and distortion free amps.

didactically October 11, 2004 07:38

System edited: Edited for Preamp replacement

didactically October 11, 2004 07:18

Your inquiry does not sound very friendly, but here you go:

See: http://www.linkwitzlab.com / Reference earphones / scroll down to: SHURE E2c Earphones for test results and review.

didactically October 11, 2004 06:48

You state in many of your posts:

"As for the top end gear, try listening with reference earphones, then compare."

You refer to the Shure model for $100-?!!! I have never heard of this model nor of it making anyone's list of reference headphones. Why are you referring to this model as "reference" upon which you are basing your entire fundamental premise of "true to the original" sound reproduction?

fatparrot October 11, 2004 03:37

I did not say I could not discern between the $$ so called hi-end cables and those from RadioShack. In fact I said the difference discerned was that the Megacable was a little more real.

The hi-end cables do have sonic characteristics. The mfgrs see to it. And those qualities can be described in poetic terms: especially if one is smitten by them.

It is just that they do not allow the signal through undisturbed. Contrare. And the notion that they somehow improve the original signal is just too absurdly illogical to even discuss.

A more rational expectation for cables is that they affect the signal the least.

Quote:
'Cables can have audible effects and some manufacturers make sure they will, either through unusual electrical parameters and/or by suggestion. Weaknesses in the design of the output-to-input interface are exploited. Sounding different does not mean it is also a more accurate transfer from electrical to acoustic domain.

'I measured the 16 gauge Megacable from Radio Shack (278-1270) that I use. A 10 foot length has 0.07 ohm resistance, 714 pF of capacitance and 1.9 uH of inductance. The line impedance is 51 ohm. A typical tweeter has a voice coil resistance of 4.7 ohm and 50 uH inductance. At 20 kHz this yields an impedance of about |4.7 + j6.3| = 7.9 ohm. Add to this the cable inductance of j0.24 ohm, and 0.07 ohm resistance for 10 feet, and the impedance becomes 8.09 ohm. This causes a 7.9/8.09 = 0.98 or 0.17 dB reduction in tweeter output at 20 kHz which is insignificant. The cable effect is even less at lower frequencies.' www.linkwitzlab.com /Q&A link /Q37 for the complete test results and review.

As for the top end gear, try listening with reference earphones, then compare. Any discernable differences will be too subtle to compete with whether a window is open or closed, the refrigerator is running or not, or even the barametric pressure or humidity (which can be very discernable in Southern Califorina with the hot dry Santana wind off the desert instead of the more usual cool humid breeze from the Pacific Ocean).

Besides, I propose that it is not about discernable differences, but rather priorities. Once an approach has been selected: whether to aspire to 'true to the original' in playback, or to join the psycho-acoustic rampant subjective confusion of the gullible 'connoisseurs of coloration' who choose to 'improve' what they hear with their system. Much like the arrogant, vain, and conceited overmixing engineers do with their room size 1/4 million dollar mixing toy.

Nothing personal, and no offence if you selected the lesser of the two approaches.

didactically October 10, 2004 02:29

I am not surprised you couldn't discern between the $3000 cables and your radio shack cables with that source. Having owned a couple of sony's including an ES model from the same era as your 333, you may want to address that soon to realize how little your hearing.

There is NO way your getting close to "true to the original" as you put it with that sony as your front end.

tireguy October 09, 2004 22:18

I too had succumbed to the top end/cable myth. I traded in over $3000 worth (pre owned market) of cables and fully expected a sonic train wreck when I installed RadioShack Megawire. But all that happened was the system sounded a bit more real.

The 'connoisseurs of coloration' like to play with different qualitites of component distortion, even to the point of mix and match, but it is still just distortion.

When you finally aquire transparent speakers suited to the environment they will operate in, finally get them setup to get the most of what they have to offer out of them, and power them with a distortion free amp, one cable or another, whether the window is open or closed, the heater or refrigerator is running or not, is so subtle that it is hardly worth the trouble, let alone the enormous expenese it can involve.

To make significant progress in 'true to the original' playback listen to the source material with reference earphones (Shur E2 $100, tested and reviewed at www.linkwitzlab.com ) then compare to what you hear in the room through the system.

It can be discouraging, but like Dr Phil says, 'you cannot change what you do not acknowledge'.

That is my story, and I am sticking to it :-)

didactically October 08, 2004 22:05

Nice speakers and room. I can't help but wonder how they would sound connected to a better front end and amplification with better cables. Just my way of thinking.....

Oz

ozzy62 October 07, 2004 15:58