So you're the one. Yes, Tom, the Foundation Research line conditioners do many positive things and are the best I know.

Most don't seem to realize that a properly engineered line conditioner will most (if not) always produce far better sonic benefits than any power cable alone can do. And though not inexpensive, one could purchase an excellent line conditioner and cable for the price of some of the more expensive power cables.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear Ken's cables sound so impressive. I know he had the audio teknes prior to and that is what I'm using now. The Teknes are a fabulous ic and sc and the best I'm aware of. But imagine my surprise when their performance nearly doubled on top of that after I had them double-cryo-treated by Cryo-Nebraska. First I installed the ics and upon first listen I thought I ruined the ics (the Audio Teknes are a cold, brittle sound when new or after cryo-treating). But 2.5 days later they absolutely soared and retained all of their previous characterics and especially their smoothness. The Audio Tekne scs were always a bit less impressive than the ics and considered them only marginally better than some other scs. I then installed the double-cryo-treated scs and it took roughly 5 days to burn-in and now they are easily the best scs I've heard.

I guess what I'm saying is I think that Ken's cables are going to have some competition.

My system's been down for 3 months now as we've been going thru some remodeling includig a new listening room. I'm within days of completing the listening room but it's going to take me a good month or more to get the system back to it's previous performance (if I can get it back) and I also just received a new pair of Legacy Focus HD speakers (also in Rosewood) that I'll be installing and buring in soonish.

It's good to hear from you, Tom, and keep me posted on the ics.

-John
p.s. someday I'll have to part with the 10Ts but it won't be easy to let them go. No matter what else I do to the system, the 10Ts continue to surprise me at how they are always able be as dynamic and refined and open and disappearing as the rest of the system dictates. In some ways, the 10Ts seem almost classic.

stehno April 19, 2007 22:49

John, That's pretty cool! The Foundations actually replace
the stock PC's at the same time giving you top notch conditioning. That's a big savings when you figure the price of good after market PC's alone! You killed two birds
with one stone.

By the way!, I have the balanced cables Ken sent In my system right now and he tells me your to get them from me when I'm done.

They are Excellent cables and I will be doing a full review
of them within the next couple of weeks.

After you try them, I would like to hear If they are a good match with your system.

All three of us are using the 10'Ts and these cables already have proven to provide the most realistic piano
I have heard In my system to date.

I will go into more detail when I write the review, but I can say now these are Giant Brand & Giant Money Killers for sure.

Thanks For the Info,

Tom

hifi111 April 19, 2007 07:57

Tom, I've not used power cables per se for the last 6 years. At least since I was introduced to the Foundation Research dedicated line conditioners which include their own built-in power cable.

These are the only 'power cables' I've used with most any of my components and unless an odd mfg'er is doing something funny with the AC in their component, it typically works universally well regardless of component.

-John

stehno April 15, 2007 02:51

John, LOL thanks for the quick reply. You must have just glanced at my post also.LOL

In my last sentence, I had asked If you still use only
stock power cords In your system.

Curious as to what power cords work best with the Nuforce
equipment?

Thanks
Tom

hifi111 April 15, 2007 00:47

Tom, without going back to dig for David's original question and my response, the short answer is no, I did not perform side-by-side comparisons with the Nuforce as some of the amps I owned or listened to critically or casually transpired over the last 7 or so years and over the span of about 5 different iterations of my own system. Moreover, a number of these amps were never in my system but in systems that should have otherwise easily outperformed my own.

If I said as you quoted, then my statement was indeed in err or at the very least misleading and I apologize. In fact, I'd have to say that I probably just glanced at the question and started typing rather than giving prior careful consideration to the question and my response.

More than likely I was making a statement of general and/or specific experiences with in-direct comparsions over a long period of time rather than direct comparisons over a short period of time.

Thanks for pointing that out. I feel much better now. :)

stehno April 14, 2007 22:23

Hello John,
DBLD had asked you If you had compared other high end amps with the same system and you stated below,

To answer your question, yes, I have compared the Nuforce amps to other high-end amps. I've listened to any number of Levinson, Krell, Theta Dreadnaught, Tenors, Halcros, Sim Audio, BAT, Jeff Rowlands, Bryston, Classe, Dartzeel, and a host of other mentionables, both critically and casually.

Did you listen to all these amps (In your system) as he had asked?

Also, do you still use stock power cords?

Thanks
Tom

hifi111 April 14, 2007 03:27

Hi John, is the AMR CD-player something like the state-of-the-art in digital today? Is it the best one box CD-player available? Most impressing technology I must say. But as you stated: make it as simple as possible. In case of the AMR I have the impression that the CD-player is a collection of "Best Of" technology and components, being put together like Lego. As you know a collection of best components available doesn't guarantee good sound.

Chris Hie
[email protected]

dazzdax March 05, 2007 21:30

'nough said, Jordan. :)

Interesting. I don't think I've mentioned anything about a 'simple tweak'. But one does exist and simple is relative, right? And it just so happens to be the most impressive improvement I've encountered or even heard about. Regrettably, I'm sworn to secrecy at this juncture because of others' business opportunities.

-John

stehno January 29, 2007 03:53

John, I think you and I were in a similar "boat" regarding APL and Esoteric (I'll leave it at that).

If you don't mind me asking, what "simple tweak" did you do to the Esoteric that so impressed you?

Take care,

Jordan

germanboxers January 27, 2007 15:58

Thanks for the compliment, Jordan.

I am extremely pleased with the UX-3SE and I emphasize the word ‘extremely’. But I can’t speak much for the older non-SE and non-Limited versions. It is my understanding that the SE versions contain over 100 parts that were upgraded over the UX-3. And of course the build quality and aesthetics of the old and new are second to none.

After about 280 of break-in the UX-3SE was at least 1 if not 2 leagues apart from the APL 3910, however one might measure that. I simply was not expecting this level of performance increase at all. To be honest, I wasn’t expecting any increase. Some of my colleagues refused to believe my claims until they heard it for themselves. Never underestimate the power of brainwashing for I too was a victim. :)

Regarding the Nuforce amps I could say much the same about their performance. My DNA-2 Rev A amp was my pride and joy. But at the repeated insistence of an audio distributor I know, I accepted delivery of a pair of the Ref 9s. After about 80 hours of burn-in (it needed about 140 hours total) I immediately put the 100 lbs. DNA-2 Rev A amp up for sale and it was gone in a matter of days.

The Nuforce Ref 9 SE amps are at least 30% better than the standard Ref 9 amps. Much of the reviews on these amps are quite accurate, except for perhaps the political class D amp issue from TAS a few months back.

With regard to modifications, I’m hesitant to say here that the typical performance of the Esoteric and Nuforce components is illustrating just a fraction of their full potential.

Thanks for the note,

-John

stehno January 27, 2007 00:27

Hi Stehno...very nice system! I also changed from the APL3910 (4 Crstal DACS/ch, not the AKM's that you had) to the Esoteric UX-3. Out of the box there was a quality to the UX-3 that was compelling, if also not quite as refined as the APL. With break-in, however, I much preferred the UX-3! I did run my APL through a preamp due to the 7m IC to the amps.

After totally digging the sound and the feeling of relief that I now had a very soundly designed and built player, I sent mine to Steve Huntley and he performed what he described as a Statement Mod ($3,000). He did a great deal of PS regulation and switched a massive number of caps on the analog and digital boards to Blackgates. It was 10 lbs heavier after I got it back from Steve! After a very lengthy breakin, the sound was much more complete and in most respects in another league from my stock UX-3. Wish I could have heard the SE before buying mine.

So why did you switch from the DNA-2 Rev A to the Nuforce? My friend has the same McCormick amp and revision and loves it. I've heard his in my system and it is a very nice amp.

Happy Listening!

Jordan

germanboxers January 26, 2007 02:05

System edited: Added the Esoteric G-25u Master Clock Generator.

stehno November 04, 2006 22:26

Hi, Stltrains. Thanks for the compliments.

It's a little difficult for me to specifically describe the performance of the Nuforce P-8 preamp. Only because I installed the Esoteric and the P-8 at the same time and both were new.

But I can say that the P-8 does not seem to induce any sonic harm that I am aware of. Given that qualification and the level of performance that I'm hearing I would say that the P-8 is absolutely in the same league as the others.

-IMO

stehno November 02, 2006 03:08

hey stehno, great looking and i bet sounding system, do you think the p8 is in the same league as the other preamps you have had in and out of your system, mike

stltrains November 01, 2006 02:09

if there is a preamp that brings out some very unique and/or special performance gains with the APL, the chances are probably pretty good that the exact same or similar preamp could also equally benefit the Esoteric.

-IMO
Stehno (Reviews | Threads | Answers)

Agreed.

tvad September 18, 2006 10:42

Tvad, I appreciate what you're saying. In the last 6 years I've owned 6 or 7 preamps ranging from $1100 to $8500, including the Pass Labs X-1, X2.5, the Placette Active Linestage, and the Chapter Audio Preface preamps.

But you might consider that if there is a preamp that brings out some very unique and/or special performance gains with the APL, the chances are probably pretty good that the exact same or similar preamp could also equally benefit the Esoteric.

-IMO

stehno September 18, 2006 05:37

The brand and circuit in the preamp (tubes, no tubes, etc) makes a significant difference, but I won't beat the dead horse as my point was not to debate your opinion of the Esoteric versus the APL, but to highlight the effects of a preamp on the APL. Perhaps the NuForce preamp didn't do it, but the First Sound Presence Deluxe II, Modwright SWL9.0SE and Lamm LL2 Deluxe all made a significant contribution to the sound of the APL in my system. Two audiophile buddies heard the same comparisons and agreed. A friend who owns the Lamm LL2 concurs as well.

Nevertheless, I'm sure what you hear with the Esoteric is the truth in your rig, and I'm glad you have made a nice discovery. Congratulations, and good listening.

tvad September 16, 2006 01:33

Hi Grant (Tvad), I appreciate your position but I heard my APL with the Nuforce P-8 for several days in the Nuforce room at CES. And I've also heard other owners' opinions about a pre-amp v. no preamp. In fact, a local friend used a moon p-5 pre-amp (not the best nor the worst) with his APL and eventually he removed and sold the preamp and now runs his APL directly into the Nuforce SE amps. Actually your's is the first I've heard preferring the APL with a preamp.

At CES we were still asked to remove the APL because they thought the Marantz (SA-11 I believe) was slightly better (it was a close call). To the best of my knowledge the APL tweak-gone-bad was limited to a buzzing sound and to a slight de-emphasis in the bass/mid-bass.

Nevertheless, this simply is not the caliber that the UX-3SE plays in. It is truly in an entirely different league and I can't imagine any preamp changing that one iota.

As I've told a handful of friends and associates over the last few week the UX-3SE improvements are more impressive than the combined performance gains from my upgrading:

o The McCormack DNA-2 Rev A amp to the Nuforce Ref 9.02 amp and then the incredible Nuforce SE amps.

o The excellent Foundation Research LC-2 and LC-1 line conditioners to the incredible LC-100 lcs.

o The Sony SCD-1 cdp to the APL 3910.

In my opinion, each of these individual upgrades was rather significant.

If I combine those improvements then I begin approaching the gains from the UX-3SE. This should be relatively easy for others to verify.

-IMO

stehno September 16, 2006 01:09

...everyone I know claims the APL sounds best without a preamp.

I rejected this position from the outset, and I wasn't alone. Without a preamp in my system, the APL Denon 3910 lacked body and foundation.

tvad September 15, 2006 20:13

Dan, my APL had the latest and greatest AKM DACS, upsampling, etc. Everything except for the linear power supply option and an email from Alex confirms this.

Prior to going into this purchase I heard the X-01 compared directly to my crippled APL at CES last January. Crippled because of an APL tweak gone bad. As a result of this surprise tweak e had to remove the APL from the Nuforce room and Alex and I and a few other people took the unit to the ESP room where Mike installed it and we were able to compare it his loaner Esoteric X-01. Most of us thought the sound was a toss-up but Mike decided to use my APL for the remainder of the show.

So with that little prelude I'm perhaps as surprised as anybody as I actually thought I'd be taking a performance hit by going to the UX-3SE. And hearing the UX-3SE now I can't help but wonder if EPS' loaner X-01 was right out of the box without any burn-in.

By purchasing the special edition I thought I just might come close to the performance of the APL. After 4 days of burn-in a potential buyer for the APL came to my house to listen to the APL. Since the Esoteric was already plugged in he heard that unit first and then we plugged in the APL and let it warm up for about 30 minutes before critical listening.

The would-be buyer said he thought it was a toss-up between the Esoteric and the APL and if anything he'd lean towards the Esoteric. About 5 days later (9 days of burn-in), the Esoteric really soared and by about the 10th day the performance was overwhelming enough that I took 2 days off work just to listen.

In summary, based on the X-01 experience I had low expectations going into the Esoteric purchase and needless to say I was more than mildly suprised to hear such dramatic performance gains from the Esoteric.

Earlier this week a friend directed me to Srajan's review on 6moons.com last year of the standard X-03 and how he compared it to the $43k Zanden Transport/DAC combo which I've never heard. In fact, Srajan speculated that 7 out of 10 listeners would choose the Esoteric over the Zanden based on performance and that 10 out of 10 would chose the Esoteric once they discovered its price. In a followup review on the Esoteric Reclocker connected to the X-03, he said there was perhaps a 3% performance gain but said the X-03 by itself was 'scarily good'.

Keep in mind that Srajan was speaking of the X-03. I'm told the UX-3SE has over 100 parts that were upgraded from the standard unit. However, the brochures only states that they addressed some vibration control issues and upgraded internal wiring.

At the same time I purchased the Esoteric I also installed a brand new Nuforce P-8 preamplifier since I did not need one prior to this with the APL. One person had suggested that I re-install the APL using the P-8 preamp and I said no I was not going to waste my time especially since everyone I know claims the APL sounds best without a preamp.

A friend of mine who used to own my APL and has now been waiting for over 12 months for his APL 3910 with linear power supply option just received his UX-3SE two days ago and was impressed with certain aspects of the unit right out of the box. About 8 more days should prove or disprove my claims since, except for speakers, he has the exact same system and me. And his ears are far more trained than my own.

Of course, Dan, you're always welcome to come up to Oregon for a listen. In fact, I have friend here who still owns the exact same version of APL 3910 I had so it should be pretty easy to compare. But once you hear the system with the UX-3SE, you may not want to bother.

BTW, I'm also told that I should receive a significant performance improvement if I switch over to XLRs between the Nuforce pre and the amps. And the several reviews on the X-03 both reviewers claim that best sonics are thru the XLR connections. The P-8 does not have balanced inputs but it does have balanced outputs. And the about to be released P-9 has both. Some new XLR ics should be arriving any day now so this could be interesting to see what if any gains can be had.

-IMO

stehno September 15, 2006 19:59

Surprising, John. Even though you now have to go through a preamp instead direct as you did with the APL? Did you have the new DACs in the APL?

drubin September 15, 2006 17:27

System edited: Recently replaced the APL 3910 which, despite all the quirks surrounding the company, is a fine sounding cdp with the recently released Esoteric UX-3SE (Special edition). Compared to the APL, the UX-3SE is all-together in a different league in essentially every category. The UX-3SE is by far the most refined and significant performance upgrade I've yet experienced. In fact, I've been a very strong advocate with the notion that the amplifier (good or bad) is the key component that determines the ultimate sound quality of a given system. The Nuforce SE amps only reinforced that opinion. But the outstanding and perhaps near state-of-the-art performance of the Esoteric UX-3SE has caused me to reconsider. Nothing short of awesome.

stehno September 15, 2006 12:36

It's always nice when a reviewer backs up one's own thoughts. Here is a just released review from 6moons.com
on the new Nuforce SEs.

http://6moons.com/audioreviews/nuforce3/9se.html

Note the concluding paragraphs.

-John

stehno May 25, 2006 03:39

Good to hear from you, Dave. Let me say right up front that I am a relatively new Nuforce dealer.

To answer your question, yes, I have compared the Nuforce amps to other high-end amps. I've listened to any number of Levinson, Krell, Theta Dreadnaught, Tenors, Halcros, Sim Audio, BAT, Jeff Rowlands, Bryston, Classe, Dartzeel, and a host of other mentionables, both critically and casually.

My previous amp the McCormack DNA-2 Revision A amp exceeded the performance of every amp I've heard. Especially in speed and bass. My amp before the DNA-2 Revision A was the highly acclaimed McCormack DNA-2 LAE (Limited Anniversary Edition) amp that Peter Moncrief rated in 1999 as the best solid state amp available. But the DNA-2 Revision A amp made the LAE sound like a typical off-the-shelf solid state amp in comparison.

Last September and after 3 years of extreme pleasure with the DNA-2 Revision A amp, I received a pair of Nuforce amps to evaluate. It was not until perhaps 80 hours into the burn-in that I realized the Nuforce Ref. 9.01 amps were equal to or better than the DNA-2 Revision A in every category. Not night and day better, but better including better transarency, tonality, more revealing, faster, and more refined. Translation: the Nuforce Ref 9s are simply more musical, more dynamic, and more accurate.

It was at this 80 hour mark that I put my McCormack up for sale and inquired about becoming a Nuforce dealer. (I was not a dealer at this point in time but I knew then that these little musical amps were something special).

The Ref 9.01s continued to improve upwards of 140 hours. The Ref 9.02s are even better, the Premiums better still, and the Ref 9 SEs (Special Edition) make the Ref 9.02s sound a little bland and boring in comparison.

Also don't forget that The Absolute Sound recently reviewed the 9.02 and informally compared their performance to the ASR Emitter II ($35k) amp and to several other amps TAS considers the cat's meow. The 9.02 received TAS' Golden Ear and Amplifier of the Year awards. And rightfully so.

I recently received the Nuforce 9 Special Edition amps and was very impressed. But I had to ship them off to a customer at the 80 hour burn-in mark. While waiting for another shipment of the SEs I've hardly listened to any music. The SEs are that good. And I would not be suprised if somebody reviews the SEs as an amp without equal.

I don't know where you live Dave, but I have a mint demo pair of silver Nuforce Ref 9.02 Premiums with about 500 hours on them that I'd happy to send to you for your evaluation.

-John

stehno May 21, 2006 05:03

John – I know you like the NuForce amps a lot, but have you been able to compare them with other high end amps in the same system? I am curious about the "buzz" around NuForce, and how'd they stack up to the likes of Levinson, McIntosh, Krell and so forth. Demoing might be tough if they require a long break-in period. I currently use a Krell FPB-300C and a Theta Dreadnaught.

Thanks - Dave

dbld May 21, 2006 02:00