The system has evolved over a 20 year period and will probably continue to evolve. It is in a dedicated room that is approximately 19' by 27' by 10' with oak floors and oriental carpets. I also use a minimal number of diffusers on the wall behind the speakers and eight of the 16" ASC Tube Traps. The room has 5 dedicated circuits for the audio.
There have been a number of evolutionary changes over the last year, primarily with respect to the power cords, speakerwire and interconnect and one rather dramatic change, the replacement of the EMM Labs XDS1 with the Esoteric P-02/ D-02. This yielded lower noise and increased detail and bass control while maintaining the musicality of the EMM Labs. I would consider the Esoteric pieces breakthrough products. Funny how you sometimes deviate from your plans. My system seems to go through extended periods without major changes, then have a number at the same time. I do have my eyes on a new cartridge and perhaps a new preamp.
I purchased an early Sirius from Andy Payor thinking that I had purchased the ultimate turntable, only to spend the next five years updating. The updates have included the air isolation base, a series of different motors and tonearms, an outboard power supply for the motor, a 50# platter, new arm wiring and a variety of different belts culminating in a custom aramid fiber belt. As currently constituted, I think that it combines the high definition of the Sirius II without its tendency toward coldness.
Einstein The Tube Mk II
Similar in many ways to the CTC Blowtorch but harmonically richer and more complex with greater dynamics and significantly better image density. Phenomenal bass, ultra quiet, very extended upper octaves.
Yamaha CT-7000
Ebony with black faceplate. Particularly nice top end coupled with an ability under the best circumstances to recreate a three dimensional soundstage. After owning a number of Magnum Dynalabs, this has been a real eye opener.
Acapella Triolons
The Triolons are an imposing sight. Two woofer towers, each 14" by 28" by 7' tall, each weighing 650# plus a cross piece holding a plasma tweeter attached to the woofers and a sword bearing two horn loaded speakers, one horn 30.5" in diameter, the other 18.5" in diameter. The Triolons can be driven by a single amps of 18 watts or higher power but must be triwired and have an efficiency of 97 db. Each side weighs 850# total. The crossover points are 200, 700 and 5000 hz. The sound from 200 hz up to 40,000 hz emanates as a spherical wavefront. The Campanile Highs are similar but crossover to their woofers at 700 hz, use the plasma tweeter plus a single horn and are much lower in efficiency (92 db). The Triolons are typically a 6 ohm speaker but have an impedance at 30 hz of 28 ohms. The same is true of the Campaniles. Neither is a particularly easy load for an amp to drive; however the greater efficiency of the Triolons does open up the possibility of driving them with the right low power amplifier. Unlike the ribbon tweeter of the Magnepans, the Acapella's tweeter does not over shadow the other drivers. Extremely dynamic.
Jorma Prime
The Jorma Prime, either in balanced or single ended configuration is superb, particularly between amp and preamp but also on other inputs. I still use the balanced 7N Mexcel on the X01 and the Valhalla on the TT but otherwise have switched to the Jorma Prime.
Finite Elemente Pagode Master Reference
5 shelf version installed as well as the amp stands. Again a nice and very audible improvement. Amazing the things that you blame on the equipment until you solve the resonance problems. Basically a no brainer. More improvement than changing a major piece of equipment.
Jorma Prime
I have been mildly dissatisfied for a number of years with my JC-1 amps when used to drive the Acapella speakers but have yet to find something that combined the ability to drive the speakers and give me the other characteristcs that I desired although I have been much taken with some tubed amps (small, single ended or OTL within their power limits. Let's just say that the insertion of a combination of Bi-wire and single wire prime has cused me to re-think the amp question. The Primes are simply the most musical natural top to bottom cables that I have ever encountered.
Mea culpa! You are absolutely right in your assumption with respect to fore-depth. Had I been more precise, I would have said that during a performance, the performers appear to line up behind or even with the plane of the speakers, but the music does in fact "come out and fill the room". This effect seems to vary depending on whether I sit near field or far field. The effect is more pronounced sitting near field. I would generally say that the image extends laterally from wall to wall but more accurately that tends to be source dependent. In some instances there is the illusion that the side walls disappear, although this is more common with the back wall which often disappears in large symphonic performances. My experience with noise is somewhat different. Ticks and pops seem to localize on the fronts of the speakers separate from the sound field, whereas hiss and similar noise is as you describe.
I get a sense of shared space with the performers but the performance occurs mostly in front of me as well. It's not so much that there needs to be images out in the room; what is required is that the music propels forward from the images in front of you so much so that you feel the music 'on you.' A friend of mine once said of a good system, 'I had to pick the notes off my sleeve.'
With other systems there is no shared sense of space; you can really sense that there is an invisible plane at the fore-edge of the soundstage that separates you from the performers and the music coming from their instruments.
I once had a system like this. I could play it at 98db and still the music would sit behind the speaker plane. It's as if the rest of my room was silent, completely void of any musical energy.
Having never heard MBLs (would love to), I can see from your pictures how your system and the setup would lend itself to the "one space" experience you describe.
The pseudo-omni Ohm 5s in my system provide a listening experience similar to what you describe with yours, however, with my room (L shaped) and setup, I get a sense of shared space with the performers as you describe, but the performance occurs mostly in front of me, regardless of how I adjust the perspective control to "close" or "far". Setting to "close" does result in a soundstage that is more forward and not as much behind the plane of the speakers, but still largely in front of me.
The Ohms sit in the base of the "L" and face straight into the length of the room (about 30' deep). I sit anywhere from 5' in front or further back.
The public venue I've been in most like it in terms of room proportions, performer location and resulting acoustics is the Village Vanguard Club in NYC, if you've ever been there. The Village Vanguard, though certainly significantly larger than my listening room, is also somewhat narrow and deep and I recall a similar listening experience.
Things get really interesting when I crank up a large scale symphonic piece in my little cubby hole of a listening room.
Yes, room acoustics are a factor as is speaker placement, and listener position. I consider my room to be part of my system and I prefer to listen along the long wall, in the nearfield.
I've had speakers in my house that fill the room and others that don't. The room and the listening position was the same in all cases.
In real life sound comes to us. In the majority of systems I've heard, we go to the sound.
In real life there is a shared sense of space when we sit 10' from a musician and her instrument. In the majority of systems I've heard, the musician and her instrument are in one space, "the soundstage," and we are in another.
My system isn't perfect in this respect and certain recordings will never sound the way I want. The fact that the lead-in groove presents itself as it does, however, is quite satisfying.
Wouldn't room acoustics be a major factor for the effect you identify?
The bottom line is that, with 2 channel stereo, unless significant reflected sound reaches your ears from behind you, the sound stage will appear to be mostly in front of you.
Speaker dispersion patterns relative to the listening position would also come into play with this I would think.
I've heard the immersion effect as you describe occur in certain "hotter" listening rooms with various speaker designs, conventional box and electrostats included.
Earlier in the thread you said that the soundstage in your room ends at the speaker plane.
I've read a few reviews and general comments from folks who have heard Triolons and say that they 'fill the room.' I take this to mean that the speakers have good 'fore-depth.'
I heard them once and they didn't fill the room (it was a very large room, however).
One of the easiest ways I've found to determine 'fore-depth' is to listen to a noisy lead-in groove on an LP at high volume. In my room the hiss and bearing noise (yes, my table isn't perfect) are just "there" / "everywhere" and as a listener I am completely immersed in the noise. The energy of the noise is around me and even 'in' me (as if I had headphones on). It fills the room. I can't point to the speaker or any area behind the speaker and say "the sound is there."
When the record starts the musicians generally appear to line up behind the speaker plane but the music comes out and fills the room.
When you say that the soundstage in your room ends at the speaker plane are you saying that your speakers don't fill the room or only that the performers appear to line up behind the speaker plane?
I'd be interested to know what you experience on the lead-in groove. (Though I don't expect that you hear any noise from the bearing. :-)
Unfortunately, Houston is not exactly the Meca of high end audio. Dallas is generally better but New York is the best. I make it a point to visit stores when I travel and to attend the RMAF and CES shows each year. I also try to visit other audiophiles who have interesting pieces that I would like to hear. Having said that, there is one dealer in Houston that you may want to add to your list, Jim Meine at Epic Audio 713 667 2069. He deals from his home but does carry a number of interesting product lines including Esoteric, Einstein, Acapella, Isoclean, Jorma and Avalon.
I live in Houston as well, and after looking, and reading about, your completely mind blowing rig, I have one question: Where do you demo the equipment? There are so few audio stores in Houston (really only one as far as I am concerned) how do you get to test the equipment you are interested in? I try to make stops at high end stores when I travel for work, but that doesn't always work out.
THe larger Ohm Walshes (300 + 5) are full range , take whatever power you throw at them and pretty flat down to 20-25hz or so. No need to supplement the bass that I can hear.
Thanks for your comment. I have always been fascinated by the Ohm Walsh drivers, but been somewhat put off by the difficulty of mating them seamlessly with a conventional woofer.
Thanks for clarifying your comment. The Triolons are capable of moving a rather large quantity of air as the horns couple extremely well with most rooms from about 170 hz up. I think that this may be the source of the visceral impact that you describe. It's interesting that you do not have to play the speakers at particularly loud levels to get this effect.
A guess that is my description of a "visceral impact."I like the speaker. Others have described this sensation. with other speakers. Maybe it was just a bad Burrito.
I have had that reaction to the 21" Cabasse Saturn A-55 subs on certain source material with very low frequency information, but never with the Triolons or the Campaniles. I am not sure that I understand where exactly you are going with your comment or what type of response you are seeking.
Should you ever make it to Houston on business, I would love to have you visit to audition the system. Given your familiarity with the Kondo Audio Note Ongaku, I doubt that there would be any real surprises. Needless to say, you have a great system.
Fcrowder, congrats on the new Kegon Balanced. wish i had the opportunity to hear these amps (doubt the local distributor where i am will bring in a demo unit though). pls remember to share yr comments/opinions. thks.
At the time that I purchased my Triolons, Mike and Neli at Audio Federation were kind enough to invite me into their home over a long weekend to hear the Triolons with a variety of different amplifiers, ranging from the Edge Reference monoblocks to the Lamm ML1.1 and ML2.1, ending with the Audionote Kegons (SE). Although each of the amps sounded superb on the speakers, the 18 watt Lamm and the 23 watt Kegons stood out. At the time, I was at somewhat of a loss to understand how a low powered SET could control the dynamic woofers of the Triolons when many higher powered transisitor amps failed to do so. I am not sure that I understand why this is the case. In any event, the Kegons made a lasting impression, eventhough I thought it unlikely that I could ever afford to buy a pair.
Fast forward to CES. Audionote introduced a new pair of amps at the show, the Kegon Balanced (KB). I would say that these were a balanced version of the Kegons, but that would be misleading in that the greatest similarity between the balanced and single ended versions of the Kegons is that they both use 300B's as the output tube and incorporate the finest parts that Audionote can build.
The Kegon Balanced are single ended Triode amps, dual 300 B in parallel, with a third 10Y/VT-25 triode in the gainstage, all directly heated. They do not have any RCA (single ended) connections on the back, they run balanced. The KBs are a 300B implementation of the Gaku-On with the same overall circuit design: The Gaku-On is a 211 based amp with the same 10Y in the gainstage. I'd guess that perhaps the rectifier tubes are different -- the Kegons and the KBs (and the other 300B amps) use a 5U4G rectifier, the Ongaku (211) uses a 5R4WGB.
All this would probably be academic, except that the KB's retain the magic of the single ended Kegons but succeed in exerting even more control over dynamic drivers in the bass. Based on repeated listening at CES, I have ordered a pair which should be delivered in early August. Hopefully, at that time I can give you an update on how they sound with the Triolons and whether they in fact are capable of the same magic as their sibling.
As many of you know, I have been searching for an amp to replace the JC-1's since I purchased the Triolons over a year ago. Without going into lengthy detail, I have finally found a pair of monoblocks that I feel will not only meet but significantly exceed my expectations. I am doing a funds tranfer this morning to initiate their construction and should receive them before the end of the summer. More to come.
System edited: Three recent and significant changes to the system, the replacement of most interconnects with Jorma Prime, the addition of an Acoustic revive RTP-2AC filter for the digital with analogue still routed through the Isoclean set up and the replacement of wall outlets with the Oyaide R-1's. The result of thes changes has been to further lower the noise floor of the system without any loss of detail or dynamics and in the case of the RTP-2, to significantly improve the sound of the Esoteric X01-D2. The key learning: the importance of the AC power delivery system
I would suggest that you do not plug your preamp and digital into a single Accoustic Revive unit as there appears to be no isolation between the plugs. I believe that part of the improvement which I heard in my system was a result of separating the digital from the analogue sources; however, I have not done enough experimenting to confirm that. If you have the time, I would be interested in your thoughts about the Ayre vs the Pass Labs amps that you previously owned. I find the execution of the Ayre mono blocks to be superb but unfortunately have only heard them in two circumstances, one with malfunctioning Sound Labs panels and the other in a dealer's showroom driving Vanderstein 5A's with BEL cabling. Neither told me alot about the ultimate capabilities of the amps.
fcrowder, thanks for the input. I have been looking at the Acoustic Revive as well for my Esoteric cdp and MBL pre. I have tried the Isoclean products but did not hear much if any difference from plugging my system directly into the wall. Perhaps I am lucky and have good power in my newish home (5 years old).
