I'm thinking maybe distance between speakers could be optimized first, followed by distance from back wall, followed by toe in?

Sounds like a reasonable plan to me. Although I think by "back wall" you are referring to the wall behind the speakers, which is referred to by most audiophiles as the front wall.

Speaking of the back wall, though, meaning the wall behind the listening position, a point which might eventually prove to be significant is that reflections from that wall will tend to produce a dip in frequency response at frequencies (in Hertz) in the vicinity of about 281.5 divided by the number of feet between that wall and the listener's ears. So if that distance is around 3 feet, as appears to be the case, reflections from that wall will cause a suckout, to some degree, in the vicinity of 94 Hz or so.

The 281.5 figure, btw, corresponds to 1/4 of the speed of sound in typical indoor environments, in feet/second. Rear wall reflections at a frequency of about 281.5 divided by the distance to that wall in feet will arrive at the listener's ears exactly out of phase with the direct sound arrival. The resulting suckout can be quite pronounced IME.

Best regards,
-- Al

almarg October 02, 2015 20:05

Timrhu, thanks so much! I am shocked I got my wife to move, but the house is much nicer and she decided she liked eastern Tennessee, (plus she got to retire early) so the pot was sweet enough that she went for it. As far as room treatments, I may get to that eventually, but I don't really perceive any issues with the current long wall set up. I think the reduction in 90 degree angles due to the bevels at the ceiling/wall, plus the CD racks angled into the back wall corners help. Interestingly, the short wall arrangement was really bad. There was a huge mid base emphasis. It would have taken extensive treatment to get that to work.

brownsfan October 02, 2015 19:33

Brf and Al, The polarity is correct on my speakers. No issues there. Thanks for the tip on the sliders. Why didn't I think of that? I got by ok with a piece of plywood under the speakers, but I will give the sliders a try. And now that everything is more or less together, I will be playing around with positioning. Anyone got a good protocol? It is a 3 variable deal, distance from wall, distance between speakers, and toe-in-- This was easier with my other room where there was little flexibility. I'm thinking maybe distance between speakers could be optimized first, followed by distance from back wall, followed by toe in?

brownsfan October 02, 2015 19:27

Brf,
Now that's a teachable moment! A reminder to begin troubleshooting with addressing the simplest solutions first. Think of the money spent, time, and aggravation that could have been avoided.

charles1dad October 02, 2015 15:11

Thanks Al for the additional notes. Yes, I removed the speaker cables from the amp and it only takes a 2-second touch of the battery terminal to detect the speaker excursion. It never hurts to be too cautious, thanks.

As an aside, my buddy who had an out of polarity (Coincident) speaker problem could not get sufficient bass from his full range speakers and spent many $$ in acoustic treatments, equipment changes, speaker placement, sub woofers etc. He finally sold the speakers only to have the new owner email him asking why he didn’t tell him that one speaker was out of polarity with the other. The new owner just switched the cables polarity on one speaker and he now has glorious bass.

brf October 02, 2015 14:42

That is a fantastic looking room. I'm trying to get my wife to move into a suitable retirement home, but she balks at leaving the home we raised our children in.

Curious if you are considering room treatments? Something behind your listening position specifically.

timrhu October 02, 2015 14:35

P.S: When doing the battery thing, it would probably be a good idea to disconnect the amp from the speakers. Otherwise the 9 volts applied to the secondary of the output transformer would result in a much larger although very brief voltage transient occurring on the primary side of the transformer, and also being applied to the output tubes and associated circuitry in the amp. Which I suspect would do no harm, but better safe than sorry.

Best regards,
-- Al

almarg October 02, 2015 14:07

10-02-15: Brf
I know of at least three pairs of Coincidents that the left the factory with different polarity.

Ouch. Not good! But thanks for alerting us to that possibility. Although given Brownsfan's evident aural acuity I would expect that he would already have concluded something is grossly wrong if the two speakers had different polarities.

I use a 9v battery and run a wire from the speakers +’ve and –‘ve terminals and touch them to the battery’s +’ve and –‘ve terminate and watch for the direction of the cone excursion. Make sure that both speakers’ cones operate in the same manner.

Good suggestion. I would add, though, that prolonged connection of the battery to the speaker should be avoided, or the battery could overheat or possibly even burst and leak as a result of the large amount of current drawn by the presumably very low DC resistance of the speaker.

Best regards,
-- Al

almarg October 02, 2015 13:08

Love your system. I own the Total Eclipse 2 speakers and I have played around with room placement (inward/outward facing woofers) for hours/days on end. For a period of time I ran the woofers inward and experienced no ill effects with my tube amps placed between the speakers. I now run the speakers a touch farther apart with the speakers toed in facing my listening chair (woofers are now facing out with the side walls providing bass reinforcement). The only suggestion I can make is don’t be afraid to experiment and go outside of the norm. \

Oh, by the way, go to the hardware store and purchase furniture “sliders” and place them under your spikes. This will allow a near friction free interface in which you will be able to push your speakers into new positions with ease.

One other tip, make sure that your speakers are BOTH wired with the same polarity. I know of at least three pairs of Coincidents that the left the factory with different polarity. I use a 9v battery and run a wire from the speakers +’ve and –‘ve terminals and touch them to the battery’s +’ve and –‘ve terminate and watch for the direction of the cone excursion. Make sure that both speakers’ cones operate in the same manner. Have fun!

brf October 02, 2015 12:47

Charles, tonality on both speakers is dead on. Differences are in the area of speed, resolution, and coherence. There may also be differences in staging, but I am going to need a lot more time to tweak placement before drawing firm conclusion.

brownsfan October 01, 2015 23:17

Hi Bill,
Well that's good news indeed. I knew that with some additional time you'd get the speaker orientation sorted out. With the generous width of your room, success with outward firing woofers was a real possibility. That's a good teaser you planted Bill. I know how much the Triumph Extremes impressed you, I'm very curious regarding the comparison of these different Coincident models. I am interested in how the ribbon tweeter affects overall tonality.
Charles,

charles1dad October 01, 2015 22:53

Al, Charles, Mapman and all. I got a couple of hours of listening in with the woofers pointed out instead of in. I listened to a couple of tracks from Appalachian Journey, including a track where Alison Krauss is accompanied by YoYo Ma et.al. I love this music, and I have never heard it sound more delicate and sweet. Not a huge difference, but a noticeable one. This may be a consequence of the reduction in radiated sound towards the tubes, or it could be a consequence of additional burn in on one rather new tube. Regardless of the cause, this was a most welcome refinement. Next up was a Dvorak string quartet by the Vogler quartet on CPO. This is the best quartet recording I own with respect to spacial differentiation of the first and second violins, and yes, this differentiation was quite evident. I noticed that the lower notes from the cello were a little fuzzy, which I have not noticed previously. However, all 4 instruments were well localized spatially. Finally, I listened to Babi Yar, which contains a lot of low strings, typmani, bass drums etc. I was struck by the depth of stage. Layout of the orchestra (2nd violins to the right, double basses in back, percussion in back) was very evident. Here is where I noticed improved coherence of the woofer predicted by Charles. Whereas in the past, strong low frequency information was easily localized spatially as coming from one or the other woofer, now these instruments were reproduced in their correct spatial location in the sound stage. Therefore, my awareness of the woofer as a separate and distinct driver was eliminated. All in all, I think the outward firing woofer arrangement is going to be the way to go. I will do some more tweaking of toe in and space between the speakers. I may put off further refinement until I receive one more tube that is coming in and get some more burn in time. Once I finished getting placement dialed in, I will revisit comparison of the SVIIs with the TEIIs. That will be an interesting exercise. The TEIIs are mini PREs. The SVIIs are a different animal. How is that for a teaser?

brownsfan October 01, 2015 21:53

Mapman, I assume you are alluding to the potential for vibrations resulting from the inward firing woofers. I certainly agree with your observation. I did not get my Mapleshade rack down here until the end of July, up until which time my equipment was sitting on the floor. When I got everything up on the rack it made a HUGE difference. Because I am using long wall orientation, pulling the speakers forward toward the listening position enough to get the equipment out of the path of radiation from the woofer isn't possible. So outward firing is in principal the way to go in my room. We will see how things sound later today.

brownsfan October 01, 2015 17:15

Al, the front baffle is flat in the right to left plane. So there is nothing preventing the outward facing arrangement from being a viable option. I have moved the speakers, but it will be later in the day before I can begin an evaluation. If I can make this work, it is going to be a better arrangement than the inward firing arrangement.

brownsfan October 01, 2015 17:09

I think I'm coming to the realizations that unwanted vibrations in general seem to have the general effect of reducing detail and thereby muddying bass and negatively affecting soundstage and imaging. It seems to be a recurring pattern.

mapman October 01, 2015 14:15

In my earlier post I was also thinking of suggesting interchanging the speakers, as an experiment, but I didn't because it appeared in the photos, especially the third one (and also in other photos I've seen of the SVii), that the front baffle may be slanted inward. In other words, with the speaker's depth on the woofer side being less than its depth on the other side. (My Daedalus speakers are designed that way, although all of the drivers are front-mounted). Is that the case, or is it a photographic artifact?

Best regards,
-- Al

almarg October 01, 2015 13:50

Bill,
When Israel used to do audio shows he would use either inner/outer placement depending on the room interaction. I've found also that subtle toe in/toe out matters as well. Bill I have no doubt that you'll figure out which speaker placement is best for your room. Coincident speakers can seemingly vanish in the room(recording permitting)with proper placement.
Charles,

charles1dad October 01, 2015 13:29

Erndog and Charles, improved coherence would be welcome. In their current position, the SEIIs do not share the uncanny coherence I have enjoyed from the TEIIs. I should be able to get some boards under the speakers today and get them moved.
I have noticed the Israel uses inward firing as have some others I have known who have side firing woofers.

brownsfan October 01, 2015 10:58

Ernie,
Yep, I had the same outcome, overall the sound opened up noticeably. I'm curious to see which orientation is better in blll's room. When I visited Israel Blume way back when, his woofers were inward. So as we all have recognized, it's individual room dependent.

charles1dad October 01, 2015 03:13

Brownsfan,
I think you'll be in for a nice surprise by turning the woofers facing outward. I have coincident Total Eclipse II's and I found that the sound stage got wider when I did this and the bass sounded more coherent too. Of course this is room dependent. Keep us posted.

Ernie

erndog October 01, 2015 02:35

The speakers reside in the exact location my son and I first positioned them before he returned to school in August. They are 125 lbs each, and have spikes, so I will have to get them up on something that will slide which I intend to do over the next couple of days. Its raining, so I won't be hiking. I do want to try them with the woofers firing out. Since I am using a long wall configuration, they are already closer than normal to the listening position. If I move the speakers closer together, I can move the Franks to the outside of the speakers if I find I like the inward firing arrangement better than firing outward.

I also found a stash of strong VU-71 Canadian Westinghouse rectifiers, which are now on the way from Great Brittan. These tubes are better than the Mullard skinny bottle CV378s in my ModWright Power supplies. I am thinking about bringing in one fat bottle CV378 to compare with the VU-71.

brownsfan October 01, 2015 01:16

Yea, never fire transducers directly at equipment if at all avoidable. Especially tubes and phonos, ie the good stuff. Good catch!

mapman September 30, 2015 19:06

Charles, thanks. Once I get the positioning dialed in, I will do some more extensive writing on the TEIIs vs the SVIIs.

brownsfan September 30, 2015 18:51

AL, indeed and I have had the same thought. I need to get the speakers up on a piece of plywood so I can slide them around. So far, I haven't noticed any microphonics, but the current positioning is asking for trouble. I haven't tried the woofers facing outward yet.

brownsfan September 30, 2015 18:48

Hi Bill,
Congratulations! What a fine system and room.Your beloved classical music must sound divine in this setting. Bill have you tried the speakers with the woofers outward facing? This is room dependent no doubt. In my room having the woofers outward was superior sounding. Any comments on the sound of the Super Victory II ribbon compared to the Triumph soft dome? I hope you enjoy your new home and retirement for many years.
Charles,

charles1dad September 30, 2015 18:02