At this point I believe that the Jupiter copper foil capacitors and the Mullard CV 378 rectifier tube are sufficiently burned end. These two upgrades are undoubtedly significant and represent a very high value acquisition. The one pair of Jupiter caps cost 170.00 and the Mullard NOS pair were 270.00, total cost =440.00 USD. For well under 500 USD this combination improved the already present high standard of sound from the Frankenstein. The established strengths of tone, timbre textures, harmonic preservation, musical flow/pace and dynamics/authority all took a step upward. Resolution, subtle details and nuances came along for the ride. I can with much enthusiasm recommend these two upgrades. I can't really imagine they wouldn't improve any component that can utilizes these parts.
They are an absolute must have for Frankenstein owners, you'll go from "very" high satisfaction to an even higher level based on my listening.
Charles,

charles1dad October 18, 2014 22:45

Hi Spirit,
You're definitely preaching to the choir, I thoroughly understand. There are certain roads that won't be traveled again.
Charles,

charles1dad October 18, 2014 21:47

Charles, I've really got lucky w/my Audion Quattro 4 box tube pre>Audion Black Shadow SET monos>Zu Audio Definitions Mk4 full range driver/high efficiency spkrs. I don't know about poor SET>spkr matching, but this is the exact opposite. Now, every time I make a change to my system (recent Elrog 845 tubes, Entreq grounding, Sablon power cords, Westwick 8kVA balanced power, Symposium Isis isolation, and even magnetic feet for my tt), I can immediately pick up on how the tonality of my system is altered. But this analysis is never at the expense of pure enjoyment. I could never go back to my belt drive tt/SS amps/ineff spkrs/non grounded components.

spiritofmusic October 18, 2014 21:29

Agear,
I only know him through these forums, not personally, but a good while back, I did start missing his posts. I think he jumped in and said he was otherwise occupied at that time. I always liked reading his opinions.
Audio Purgatory...yes, I have put myself there too many times making bad buying decisions for really silly reasons. In the last three years, I have become much more focused on my system priorities. I still make mistakes though. I made a BIG one in the beginning of the year. Since I liked my Klipsch Epic speakers, and I had some bonus money in my pocket, I decided to buy a pair of speakers that I thought were basically the same type of speaker, but probably better. They were the JBL Array 1400. They received a great review from Stereophile and many users, so I thought why not?
I bought them here on Audiogon used for a great price and they came in perfect condition. Unfortunately, they didn't sound nearly as good to me or other friends familiar with my system as the Epics do. I was really unable to get any offers when I listed them here on Audiogon, but I was finally able to find a buyer in Romania on Ebay, and I recouped my money at least.
Lesson learned: When it comes to the big expensive stuff, try to hear it first if possible. In this case, I really made the effort, but there was no place to hear them. I shouldn't have done it. But, as you can see, based on my unreliable intuition, I did it again with the SET amp, although this time, the advice was from several people whom I trusted, not Larry Greenhill. It was a good move.

roxy54 October 17, 2014 21:10

Andrew,
When ever I discuss the splendor of good SET amplifiers I try to make it clear the importance of the right speaker match. A superb SET amp can sound terrible with an improper speaker pairing. This same speaker could sound superb with a different amplifier.
Charles,

charles1dad October 17, 2014 20:47

Charles and Islandman,
I'm in agreement with everything you said. Again, it is still easy for me to understand differing tastes, but I feel lucky to have found something that I was able to give me a clearer insight into the the meaning of the music that I listen to.

roxy54 October 17, 2014 18:45

If I had to describe the difference between this and all other amps that I have listened to, including the tube amps, it would be this: With other amps, there is a forward motion to the music. In a way, it's almost as if the amp is dictating the speed of that forward motion, although I never noticed that before owning this one. Of course, all music has it's own forward motion, but with this amp, and I guess SET in general, the music seems to
"unfold" before me, and inner rhythms and timing cues created by bass lines, pianos, strummed guitars etc., are exposed in a way that is new to me, and very musically engaging.

Well said. I think your speaker choice is critical in all this and is why many people throw in the towel with SETs. Charles had the wisdom to allow a designer to make this decision for him, and if more people followed that path there would be less time spent in audio purgatory.

Roxy54, any word on TVAD? :)

agear October 17, 2014 16:49

John,
you did right by getting a high quality amplifier, this is the foundation. Tubes can always be rolled when the time is right, there's no hurry. You're obviously enjoying music with what ever the current tubes are.

charles1dad October 17, 2014 04:33

Thanks Charles,
I am not delusional; and I realize that I have neither the resources nor the space to recreate music in a full scale facsimile of reality. Many argue that no one can, but there are many super systems that make a heroic and impressive attempt, and I think that's great.
What I have realized over the last few years is that I personally don't need the ultimate in bandwith extension or hyper resolution. With an SET amp, I have found that an organically cohesive musical picture that is more revealing of artistic intent and instrumental nuance is more than enough for me.
By the way, I did buy the Jupiter copper foil caps and send them to the builder. I have no idea of how it would have sounded with the stock Mundorfs, but I will take the word of you and others that it was the right thing to do.
Next up of course will be tube rolling; but I'm too poor for that at the moment.

roxy54 October 17, 2014 04:17

John,
One of the byproducts in an odd sort of way of having a SET based system is less interest in attending CES. It's a fine event and has always historically been fun. However the last 2 shows and particularly this year I longed to get back home To hear music in my system. Despite having the privilege to listen to the most regarded and expensive/powerful (massive transistor amps with matching imposing speakers) It was generally underwhelming.

Playing my familiar music on most of these systems (to be fair "some" are engaging)the general presentation tends to be dry, flatten and two dimensional (as John mentioned above). They just lacked the breathing, living soul/flesh and blood I get regularly at home. I was very much aware that the music is recorded and reproduced (canned). What I'm able to hear at home is more live like, color saturated, and has more presence and ambiance. Does my system mimic the jazz clubs I attend completely? no it doesn't, but it's close enough to be very involving and emotionally pull me in pretty deep. I'll gratefully live with that. I still like the shows but they aren't the thrill they once were for me. Live acoustic jazz is a terrific reference point for me.
Charles,

charles1dad October 17, 2014 04:11

Hi John,
Wow! You summed up the essential attributes and powerful attraction of a SET amplifier very well. I shared some of the same reservations (based on stereotype hearsay) as you and was taken aback with my first listen in my system. The reality was more resolution,articulation and clarity. No mud or syrup. A new level of realism and emotion retained in the music reproduction. I understand your new found joy John and congratulations, you chose an excellent SET amplifier.
Charles,

charles1dad October 17, 2014 02:14

Roxy, your experience closely mirrors my own. A change of speakers back around 2008-2009, allowed me to indulge my curiosity regarding SET amps, going from Dynaudio Contour 5.4's to custom-built Tannoy HPD's.

There's no going back, at least for me. I am stunned by the dynamic capability of a 9 Wpc amplifier. What a joy. Charles was intrumental in helping me decide to give it a try, I had concerns there wouldn't be enough power.

Those concerns have completely dissapated, all that remamins is the enjoyment and satisfaction of the best listening I've ever had at home.

Regards,
Dan

islandmandan October 17, 2014 01:32

Hi Charles,
This posting will stand in place of a review of the specific SET amp that I bought, and have been using for the last couple of months. Charles was aware that I had bought an Audio Note Kits Kit One 10th Anniversary 8 watt SET 300b integrated amp kit, which I had professionally built bt Digital Pete, who is officially sanctioned by Audio Note Kits.
I am really not qualified as many others on these forums to write a "review" of this amp that would be useful in a comparative way, since I have never owned an SET amplifier before. I have owned several modest push-pull tube amplifiers (Fisher, Quicksilver and DeHavilland) for periods of time, but I have spent many more years with solid state, and several brands of that as well, but mostly McIntosh, as that was what I found most satisfying for my tastes over the years and with all of the diferent speakers I used.
I think that as a listener who has not experienced an SET amplifier before, it might be more useful for me to describe the differences that I perceive with this type of amplifier as compared to bipolar solid state and push -pull tube amplifiers that I have used in the past.
So many of us are curious about low power SET amplifiers, and it's easy to understand. We all know that from a spec sheet standpoint, they are a mess, and yet... so many who own them swear by their superior musicality.
I was really curious about them for a long time, but I was generally very happy with my Mac, and besides that, many of the speakers that I was using were not ideally suited to such a low powered amp. Then about 6 years ago, after owning some really nice speakers (e.g. TDL, Spendor, Celestion, Nestorovic, Focus Audio, JBL and more), I bought a pair of used Klipsch Epic CF-4 on a lark based on a consumer review that I read. (I bought a new pair of Klipschorns in 1976)
They turned out to be really excellent, and had fewer bothersome faults than most other speakers I had owned. High efficiency, coherence and very good dynamics were 2 of the good points. It took a while to dawn on me that this might be the time to try an SET. Before I did though, I decided to replace my Mac 2105 with a Mac 402, thinking more and newer would be better. That wasn't the case for me, and I was really disappointed in the result. Obviously, I didn't need all of that power for speakers with an eficiency of 102db, and I started thinking that maybe the belief that some audiophiles have about the first watt being the most important could be true.
I sold that Mac (but kept the 2105...classic) and decided to take the chance on SET. I was influenced in my decision by you Charles, as I share the sonic preferences that you express, and I also had bought my second Audio Note DAC, and was in love with it. I guess you could fairly say that I buy into the Audio Note philosophy in general. I only mention this because there are so many good brands of SET amps, many beyond my financial means, and I made the decision based on past good experience with Audio Note.
I want to start by saying that I can still understand now, as I did before, that the SET experience, like anything else in audio, will not be for everyone. It certainly is right for me.
The differences that I have experienced are not really what I was expecting. I think what I was expecting was a soft, flowing, very organic sound, with timbre that was far superior to what I was hearing with my vintage Mac. That was not really the case. My Mac had very good timbre. I was also expecting, and willing to accept weaker, less defined bass. That was the surprise. The lowest bass compared to good solid state is in fact a bit less defined, but the payoff, and again this may be very specific to the interaction between this amp and my speakers, is that the mid bass is so much more informative of the rhythm and pace of the music. I had never heard this before, and had no idea that I was missing anything. More to the point, I didn't realize how important this was to my understanding of the music.
I make no pretense of having even a rudimentary knowledge of electronics, but it makes me think that the things that I have read about the bad effects of negative fedback may be more important than I thought before. I was also expecting somewhat rolled off high frequencies, but I have not noticed that , and I am very satisfied with the treble performance. Of course, everyone describes SET midrange as being great, and certainly, solid state that I have heard including Mac sounds somewhat opaque compared to this, and there is a large and immediately noticable difference in the amount of ambience exposed in recordings, making the Mac sound dried up by comparison. There is no syrup in the sound. Voices and instruments are very clean, pure and well seperated from one another.
So now, after having tried to describe the "sound" of the SET experience, I will try to explain in brief why it had changed the way I experience recorded music, and why , like some others, I don't have a desire to go back to where I have been.
If I had to describe the difference between this and all other amps that I have listened to, including the tube amps, it would be this: With other amps, there is a forward motion to the music. In a way, it's almost as if the amp is dictating the speed of that forward motion, although I never noticed that before owning this one. Of course, all music has it's own forward motion, but with this amp, and I guess SET in general, the music seems to
"unfold" before me, and inner rhythms and timing cues created by bass lines, pianos, strummed guitars etc., are exposed in a way that is new to me, and very musically engaging.
I used to think of musical improvements to my system as consisting of more treble, or more bass, or more depth and detail. I am for sure getting some more exposure of musical detail now, but as it has turned out, that was not by a long shot the most enjoyable thing that I have been getting from my SET experience.
I want to thank Charles, and several others for relaying their experiences, which gave me the guidance and courage to persue this path.
Thanks Charles and everyone else.
John

roxy54 October 17, 2014 00:26

Hi Thaluza,
I think you'd like the Atmasphere amplifiers but they are likely leaner sounding than your Joule.Frankenstiens have a full body/ tone sound but can be altered depending on the choice of tubes (particularly the 300b). I'd put in the "meat on the bone" camp. It definitely preserves true tone,timbre and saturated harmonics but still wonderfully transparent and clear. It's certainly possible your Joule could have more "meat". Multiple 6C33Cs vs a single 300b for output. The point is do they both make music? Based on the replies here I'd say absolutely yes!Maybe one day we'll both get our chance to listen to these two amplifiers.
Charles,

charles1dad October 15, 2014 01:29

Sorry, meant to type Needfreestuff.

charles1dad October 14, 2014 23:38

Hi Needlefreestuff,
I don't believe in a single best amplifier or any component for that matter. I do feel that there are numerous components that can provide superb sound when used properly with complimentary equipment. With these two amplifiers as well as others you can have an excellent foundation to build upon. In my case it just happens to be the Frankenstein. I believe what you wrote about the Joule OTL.
Charles,

charles1dad October 14, 2014 23:35

Charles I have heard nothing but great comments about your amp would love to hear one someday. I have heard the Joules and it is one amazing amp. The sound just stays with you, it just overwhelms you. Regards

needfreestuff October 14, 2014 23:14

Charles and Shawbros3,

Thank you for the kind words. As noted above, there is a lot of "meat to the bones" with the Joule OTL. That is why I am curious about the Frankensteins, because it seems the Franks share similar sonic attributes with the Joule. If I could get the sound that I am fond of, and reduce the heat, I would be in heaven. I am looking forward to the day that I will be able to compare the two amps.

Shawbros3, I have the VZN-80 Musicwood version. With regard to pairing the Joule OTL to the right speakers, I have Coincident Victory II speakers. The Victory II's are a very nice match with the Joule, imo, even better than Merlin VSM's, which I also own.

Charles, I have not had any of the Atmasphere amps in my system. They were on my short list before I bought the Joule OTL. I would love to hear them one day.

thaluza October 14, 2014 22:38

Luan,
You raise a key attribute for me, the ability to "dig into music" and convincingly preserve the inherent color saturation, full body and emotion. At least in my experiences thus far high quality SETs have done this better than other amplifier alternatives . The Joule based on your description sure appears to achieve this mandatory need I have. So many components strip or dilute this quality in an attempt to sound so called "accurate" and this direction is a failure in my opinion. It seems Jud Barber wisely avoided this path and instead took what I refer to as the "natural" path. Thaluza probably hears in the same fashion given the evolution of his system and component selection.
Charles,

charles1dad October 14, 2014 18:05

Luan,
I believe you and that's why I wrote I of roads leading to Rome. I thoroughly enjoy my Frankenstein but obviously I recognize that there are other amplifiers that are supremely satisfying and would be a joy to own. I suspect the Joule amplifier is one I'd love to have. None of these choices are flawless but they'd certainly have the qualities that are most desirable for me.The Atmasphere is fine but the Frankenstein suits my musical objectives more. The Joule's approach to OTL design and presentation could be more of what I prefer based on your description. Luan I believe our tastes are pretty similar so I understand where you're coming from. I'd love to hear the Joule one day. It would probably be a thrill to have both this and the Frankenstein LOL.

charles1dad October 14, 2014 17:33

I very nearly pulled the trigger on the Rites of Passage. Would be phenomenal with my current speakers. Too much heat and a crappy amp to have around kiddos....

agear October 14, 2014 16:23

Charles,

If you ever get the chance, definitely check out the Joules. You would highly appreciate the way the OTL digs deep into the music and just puts you under its spell.

Maybe when my kids are all in college, I can get reacquainted with the Joule magic...

shawbros3 October 14, 2014 06:56

Thaluza,

I totally understand why you still have the Joule. Which model do you have? When I heard the Joule VZN-100 for the first time, it was one of those moments that tattooed me for life. It has the most presence, effortlessness, and weight of any amplifier I have ever heard, SS or tube. That system was absolutely amazing and had crazy synergy. We tried many different highly regarded tube amps and SS amps in that system, but they all left badly bruised. It's only shortcoming is the sheer amount of heat that they generate which makes them very dangerous, especially for small children. However, if I were single, I would own a pair for sure.

The Atmasphere OTL's are pretty darn transparent and open sounding, but they are not in the same class as the Joules. The Graaf gets closer, but is a bit too warm and has less realism compared to the Joule.

The Franks are terrific and I respect them a lot, but if you can mate the Joule with the right speakers I'm not too sure there's an amp out there that's better, at least to my ears. To me, the Joules are "horn-like", there's just an ease to the music that is undeniable and nothing feels forced. You are a lucky man!

Happy listening...

shawbros3 October 14, 2014 06:40

Thaluza,
The only OTL amplifier I have heard numerous times are the Atmasphere models(transparent,resolute, yields towards a lean interpretation). I've been told that the Joule OTL has a different sonic character. Based on reviews It seems the Joule has a presentation I'd be very drawn to, (transparent yet also full bodied and harmonically rich and complete).As always it's a matter of taste and system synergy. I can imagine your system is exceptionally enjoyable to listen to. Have you compared the Joule to an Atmasphere amplifier (if so are they really different)? With your amp having 8 6C33C tubes I can understand the heat generation. The Frankenstein is certainly in a different direction in the design sense. As I said before, it's easy to believe that both of these could be deeply satisfying for you in their own way. Many roads lead to Rome.
Charles,

charles1dad October 14, 2014 04:28

Schubert,
Thanks for the tip.

charles1dad October 13, 2014 17:09